Path of War [Rising Zenith Strike]

[Hogsy]

The Rising Zenith Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/scarlet-throne-maneuvers/rising-zenith-strike) mentions that if you succeed on a Sense Motive check(using it as your attack roll) you deal double damage. I was wondering how much of my damage would be eligible to be doubled. My normal weapon damage and its modifier are a no-brainer, but I do have sneak attack and modifiers that I add to my damage whenever I sneak attack from the Blade of the Society trait, Craven feat and Bracers of Murder item. Would those modifiers be added to my weapon damage, and thus doubled whenever I use this strike? Thanks in advance!

[Tuvarkz]

Sneak attack damage is not doubled. Blade of the Society adds to the sneak attack damage, aka it remains part of the sneak attack and is not doubled. Link to Craven and Bracers of Murder? can't find them.

[stack]

Craven was a 3.5 feat, unless there is another one, that increases sneak attack damage, so wouldn't be doubled.

[exelsisxax]

I don't think anything should be doubling except the weapon damage die, the applicable attribute bonus, and real enhancement bonus. (bane doesn't get doubled) It's a crit that arguably doubles your normal attack damage rather than rerolling it a second time.

[ComaVision]

Power Attack damage would be doubled as well, no?

[Powerdork]

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

If it's a flat bonus, if it's a scaling bonus... So long as it's a non-die bonus, it multiplies.

[Hogsy]

If it's a flat bonus, if it's a scaling bonus... So long as it's a non-die bonus, it multiplies.

That's what I was reading, so I was wondering if modifiers such as Craven would be doubled. Craven reads as follows:
"You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. However, when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level."
Also, bracers of murder: "Bracers of murder grant you a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against flat-footed targets. "

I am 100% certain that bracers of murder would be doubled if the target was F-F. However, I am not so sure about Craven. The rogue in me wants to say it does, and he can argue in its favour, but I'm just not so sure. If wasn't using a different system along with 3.5 and PF I'd argue more passionately since rogues aren't all that strong, but the rogue in our games has received a considerable number of buffs, meaning that I don't care as much to prove that this extra damage can be doubled with a strike or whatever.

I still wanted the playground's opinion on this though. extra dice are not doubled, but what about modifiers that are added to the damage roll because of extra dice?

[Rynjin]

Given the general power level of level 2 Maneuvers, I imagine the intent is for it to double the weapon dice, and any normal static bonuses from Str, Power Attack, and weapon Enhancement, but not any precision damage or other sources of "additional damage dice".

Compare/Contrast the other two "heavy hitter" Disciplines' (Broken Blade and Primal Fury) 2nd level Maneuvers and how they add, on average, 7-10 extra damage (and generally tack on an extra effect like Bleeding or ignoring DR/Hardness on top).

The Scarlet Throne one scales better, damage-wise, but does not have those extra effects.

Note that this is also the same level that Primal Fury gets Pounce in a can, so the scaling is also not in itself unusual.

[Sayt]

Precision damage isn't multiplied on crits, so if the GM rules that the extra damage from craven is precision damage (it isn't explicitly stated to be, but it would make sense for it to be so, considering it's triggered by sneak attack) it wouldn't be multiplied.

[Hogsy]

Precision damage isn't multiplied on crits, so if the GM rules that the extra damage from craven is precision damage (it isn't explicitly stated to be, but it would make sense for it to be so, considering it's triggered by sneak attack) it wouldn't be multiplied.


Is a critical strike the same as double damage from maneuvers or charging with a lance though? As for the intention of Dreamscarred Press, I'm just going to look at Cursed Razor and then ignore whatever their intention for a lvl2 Scarled Throne maneuver is.

[Sayt]

Is a critical strike the same as double damage from maneuvers or charging with a lance though? As for the intention of Dreamscarred Press, I'm just going to look at Cursed Razor and then ignore whatever their intention for a lvl2 Scarled Throne maneuver is.

Okay, so this is the third ****ing time my computer has crashed while trying to write this post.

So, Page 179 states that additional dice are never multiplied, but precision damage in and of itself (such as from the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike) is not mentioned, and presumably therefore is multiplied by spirited charge and Zenith/Sunset strikes (But not lances, which are two-handed and so don't get precise strike's damage.)


Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modif iers) multiple times and total
the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied

So it comes back to does Craven increase your sneak attack damage, or your damage?

[Rynjin]

Technically, as a general rule, precision damage can be multiplied I believe, but most if not all sources of precision damage (including the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike) have this clause: "This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit."

The problem here is really occurring from using a 3.5 Feat in Pathfinder. Pathfinder is not really nearly as backwards compatible as it claims to be, and getting 1st party 3.5 Feats and expecting them to play nice with 3rd party Pathfinder stuff (that works on a different design sense than the rest of Pathfinder, generally) out of the box and expecting a proper rules-based answer is going to be spotty.

So "when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level" is juuuuuust ambiguous enough to be a problem. It could mean either your Sneak Attack gets 1 extra damage per level, or just whenever you get a Sneak Attack you also just happen to deal an extra point per level of damage as a different source. I'd lean towards the former.

A Pathfinder Feat that does something similar is just as annoyingly ambiguous. Sap Adept. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat)