PoW Warder with Piercing Thunder - dex or str?

[mistermysterio]

Just looking for opinions here on whether dex or str would be a better focus for a warder specializing in piercing thunder (along with another discipline or 2). He/she would have a polearm.

Given that he/she would wear heavy armor (or possibly medium armor, if the benefit is a lot more), would it be more beneficial to focus in Str or in Dex? If Dex, he/she would obviously take Polearm Dancer (polearms use dex for attack, qualify for weapon finesse feats) and Deadly Agility (dex to damage).

Also, anyone know of any current guides for Piercing Thunder? Also, any good ideas on what disciplines mix well with piercing thunder for a warder that can maximize his tanking ability while simultaneously having long reach and decent damage?

Thx for your opinions!

[exelsisxax]

Just looking for opinions here on whether dex or str would be a better focus for a warder specializing in piercing thunder (along with another discipline or 2). He/she would have a polearm.

Given that he/she would wear heavy armor (or possibly medium armor, if the benefit is a lot more), would it be more beneficial to focus in Str or in Dex? If Dex, he/she would obviously take Polearm Dancer (polearms use dex for attack, qualify for weapon finesse feats) and Deadly Agility (dex to damage).

Also, anyone know of any current guides for Piercing Thunder? Also, any good ideas on what disciplines mix well with piercing thunder for a warder that can maximize his tanking ability while simultaneously having long reach and decent damage?

Thx for your opinions!
If you also plan on acquiring and diving deep into mithral current, dex might be good. Otherwise, it's crap. Deadly agility can't begin to make up for losing 2-h STR increase and power attack damage stacking. You'd have much less damage, less AC, and more initiative. For a warder, that's not really worth it - initiative matters little to you compared to most.

Guides? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380631-All-the-Path-of-War-Guides-in-One-Place!)

Best warder discipline: eternal guardian. +10' threaten at lv 1 during defensive focus, all the counters, deal no damage during your turn and during every enemy turn deal more damage than they and/or cripple them completely with maneuvers. Become the embodiment of the tank.

[stack]

If you want a dex warder, is there a reason not to go dervish defender?

[mistermysterio]

Thanks for the advice and guide link - unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a piercing thunder guide anywhere in there (at least a guide that focuses on its current iteration).

I think the only thing you would lose by going dex instead of str damage wise would be the extra .5... i.e. deadly agility gives dex to damage vs. str gives 1.5x to damage. Power attack could still be used with deadly agility, assuming you have at least 13 str.

AC with dex should potentially be higher no? Since you could use heavy armor and gain extra dex to AC via clad in steel, and lower ACP by 1 or more, depending on level. The only question would be about the weight of the heavy material and encumbrance.

The cost to go the dex-route is essentially the cost of the 2 feats. Plus, if one DOES go eternal guardian, then they won't be able to benefit from feats that enable str to intimidate. The dex route does go decently well with the acrobatics specialty of piercing thunder, though.

Tactical acumen makes it so you get intelligence to reflex, aoo's, and initiative... so dex vs. str there is kinda moot.

*shrug*

[mistermysterio]

If you want a dex warder, is there a reason not to go dervish defender?

Dervish focuses on using 2 weapons... and I kinda want to go Zwei and use a polearm. ;)

[exelsisxax]

Thanks for the advice and guide link - unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a piercing thunder guide anywhere in there (at least a guide that focuses on its current iteration).

I think the only thing you would lose by going dex instead of str damage wise would be the extra .5... i.e. deadly agility gives dex to damage vs. str gives 1.5x to damage. Power attack could still be used with deadly agility, assuming you have at least 13 str.

AC with dex should potentially be higher no? Since you could use heavy armor and gain extra dex to AC via clad in steel, and lower ACP by 1 or more, depending on level. The only question would be about the weight of the heavy material and encumbrance.

The cost to go the dex-route is essentially the cost of the 2 feats. Plus, if one DOES go eternal guardian, then they won't be able to benefit from feats that enable str to intimidate. The dex route does go decently well with the acrobatics specialty of piercing thunder, though.

Tactical acumen makes it so you get intelligence to reflex, aoo's, and initiative... so dex vs. str there is kinda moot.

*shrug*
If you have ability score to spare on a 13 STR on a dex warder, you may as well play an orc wizard.

Using 2 feats to still fail to have as much damage as a STR-user that used none is not a good trade.

Clad in steel is still better for STR-users, because the DEX gap is easily filled with magic items that will provide no further(AC) benefit to a DEX user. Fullplate is always going to be better, assuming you aren't mythic'd to hell and have enough gold for +5 inherent everything.

STR to intimidate is really bad as a feat. Skill ranks are rather plentiful, and you can get far more from magic(or mundane, even) items than ability scores.

INT to AoO is defensive focus, actually. But I forgot how tactical acumen worked: it makes dex warders plain terrible(except dervish, because it trades that away). Why would you ever want to base your combat ability on a score you can almost completely dump, and which provides almost none of its normal benefits if you try to max it? STR. STR all the way.

[mistermysterio]

If you have ability score to spare on a 13 STR on a dex warder, you may as well play an orc wizard.

Using 2 feats to still fail to have as much damage as a STR-user that used none is not a good trade.

Clad in steel is still better for STR-users, because the DEX gap is easily filled with magic items that will provide no further(AC) benefit to a DEX user. Fullplate is always going to be better, assuming you aren't mythic'd to hell and have enough gold for +5 inherent everything.

STR to intimidate is really bad as a feat. Skill ranks are rather plentiful, and you can get far more from magic(or mundane, even) items than ability scores.

INT to AoO is defensive focus, actually. But I forgot how tactical acumen worked: it makes dex warders plain terrible(except dervish, because it trades that away). Why would you ever want to base your combat ability on a score you can almost completely dump, and which provides almost none of its normal benefits if you try to max it? STR. STR all the way.

Fair enough!

Thanks.

Any recommendations for a good polearm that meshes well with piercing thunder and eternal guardian?

[stack]

Dervish focuses on using 2 weapons... and I kinda want to go Zwei and use a polearm. ;)

Dual wielding polearms is a thing! But with zwei I personally prefer STR.

[digiman619]

Dual wielding polearms is a thing!

As someone who has actually used polearms on a regular basis (SCA heavy fighting), believe me when I say no. No, there is not. Unless it's a pair of short spears, it simply doesn't work. And even then, if you're going Florentine, there are SO MANY better weapons to double up on than short spears.

[Sayt]

As someone who has actually used polearms on a regular basis (SCA heavy fighting), believe me when I say no. No, there is not. Unless it's a pair of short spears, it simply doesn't work. And even then, if you're going Florentine, there are SO MANY better weapons to double up on than short spears.

As someone who lives in real life, conjuring demons from hell isn't a thing that works either, but the game system lets you do it (Twin Thunder Stance, Level 3, Piercing Thunder Discipline specifically envisages and enables it).

[digiman619]

As someone who lives in real life, conjuring demons from hell isn't a thing that works either,
Not with that attitude it won't.

[stack]

As someone who has actually used polearms on a regular basis (SCA heavy fighting), believe me when I say no. No, there is not. Unless it's a pair of short spears, it simply doesn't work. And even then, if you're going Florentine, there are SO MANY better weapons to double up on than short spears.
Utterly ridiculous, yes. Allowed by the rules? Also yes. I don't even like regular two weapon fighting unless it's with a shield.

[Sho]

How much do Warder class features matter to you?

Focusing on using Strength, I recommend Primal Disciple Barbarian 2 as a dip. You begin with Practiced Initiator (Warder), going into Warder at third level. Primal Disciple 2 gives you Rage, which means more Strength, a Bonus Feat, and Uncanny Dodge, which will let you use your Counters during the first round despite it not having possibly gotten to your turn.

(Being Flat-Footed means you cannot use your Counters.)

There's also Vigilante Stalker 2 into Warder 1. It synchronizes well with Warder since it changes the Initiator Modifier from Wisdom to Intelligence, and it gives you Intelligence to Reflex and Initiative even earlier. You can also pick up Investigator talents with your Vigilante Stalker arts (namely anything that lets you use Inspiration for free on Skills or the very useful Inspired Alertness).

Anything that lets you use Counters when you normally could not or helps you go first is pretty good on Warder, I feel. It means that the warder can get into position better with Iron Tortoise and Eternal Guardian Counters.