Jedi are responsible for everything wrong in the Star Wars universe (Legends)

[digiman619]

With The Force Unleashed making the previous EU its own continuity, this isn't nearly as powerful as before, but here's my theory:

In the ancient times, the Jeedai, the order that would one day become the Jedi, venerated both the Light AND Dark sides of the force. This can be seen in the one or two stories set way back then. To give an idea of how long ago this was, lightsabers hadn't been invented yet, and the Yuuzang Vong hadn't been exiled yet.

We (as far as I have been able to read) haven't ever been told how the Jeedai evolved into the Jedi, but the major change one immediately notices between the two is that the Jedi only follow the Light Side. My theory is this: It's been shown that going too deep into the Dark Side can make you both ugly and evil. Seeing this the Jeedai forsook the Dark Side to follow only the path of light. Unfortunately, this caused the force to stop being in balance. Remember how Yoda said the Jedi were weaker and they wanted balance in Episode I? It's because the Jedi were diluting the power of the light by having too many practitioners.

In fact, every time the Sith rose in Galactic history, it was immediately following a long era of peace from the Jedi. There's this big fight that kills most of the Force users and they go back to a state of balance unti l the Jedi get too numerous and it happens all over again. In fact, if you want to be literal, Anakin DID bring balance to the Force by reducing the total number of active Force users to 4: Himself and Palpatine (being Dark) and Yoda and Obi-Wan (being Light). Of course, the Emperor had his Hands later on, but my point stands,

Your thoughts?

[Keltest]

Well, for one thing, if were looking at the entire former EU, the Jedi aren't the only force practitioners in the galaxy, lots of species have innate force connections and their own orders of force users, because why not?

Furthermore, Lucas is on the record as having said 'Bringing balance to the force" means eliminating the Dark Side users, the Sith.

And finally, Yoda outright says that its the rise of the Dark Side that's clouding the Jedi's powers of foresight, and its further heavily implied to be a deliberate move by Palpatine to keep them unaware of his plans and identity.

[Hopeless]

The real point was that Jedi was just one of a number of Force practicing groups it just absorbed or wiped out any rivals until it completely lost track about what was actually important.

The Sith evolved from survivors of these various attempts by the Jedi to keep their position as the true way to practice the Force even though ultimately it isn't!

What you call balance is how practicing the force originated from, by keeping both light and dark in balance was the original credo however outside events insured this would be hard to maintain but it was never forgotten as seen by Qui-gon Jinn and Bendu.

Oh right you're talking about Legends, well back then Wedge wasn't recruited straight out of the Imperial Academy, Thrawn was a genuine threat that wasn't found out about until after ROTJ and apparently Luke was the only surviving Jedi... that last one I'm okay about being proved not true but fortunately I'm quite relieved the force unleashed no longer counts as canon!

[khadgar567]

hold on a freaking second jedai are not part of jedi or sith they learned from sith holocron and pepper it with jedi teaching were the holocron dont teach and both sides( jedi and sith) try to massacre all of them so they are not upset galactic balance so either whole setting accidently chained or you have wrong info about jedai

[Bobb]

New Sith empires arising from long periods of peace and stability means that New Sith empires destroy peace and stability. Not that peace and stability create darkness. It's just that if you made it to peace and stability (a good endpoint for a story) and never had a new disturbance (a good starting point for a story) your storytelling options for that universe.... lessen.


And Qui Gon isn't an example of a balanced light/dark side user. He's a paragon of light who followed the 'living' force instead of the jedi creed, which is its own attempt to follow the light side of the force.

[Lethologica]

One of the central conceits of the Star Wars universe, which gets played out to greater or lesser extent in various series, is that the conflicts of Force-users are somewhere between "responsible for" and "symbolic of" everything of importance that happens in the universe. As the Jedi are the most notable group of Force-users with the most attention from writers, they get to be responsible for the most things, right and wrong.

[digiman619]

Well, for one thing, if were looking at the entire former EU, the Jedi aren't the only force practitioners in the galaxy, lots of species have innate force connections and their own orders of force users, because why not?
Fair enough, I had forgotten about them.


Furthermore, Lucas is on the record as having said 'Bringing balance to the force" means eliminating the Dark Side users, the Sith.
I'm going to have to invoke Death of the Author: I don't care what Lucas has to say; The Dark Side of the Force is still part of the Force! When you remove one of the legs of a chair it's going to fall.


And finally, Yoda outright says that its the rise of the Dark Side that's clouding the Jedi's powers of foresight, and its further heavily implied to be a deliberate move by Palpatine to keep them unaware of his plans and identity.
Palatine has subtle Force powers, so how much was him and how much was the Dark Side becoming more powerful is unknown.


One of the central conceits of the Star Wars universe, which gets played out to greater or lesser extent in various series, is that the conflicts of Force-users are somewhere between "responsible for" and "symbolic of" everything of importance that happens in the universe. As the Jedi are the most notable group of Force-users with the most attention from writers, they get to be responsible for the most things, right and wrong.
Fair enough, it's hard to sell someone on a Star Wars story without them.

[BWR]

So many people have this strange idea that 'balance' means that the Light Side and the Dark Side are two equal yet opposite sides, like sides on a chess board and balance is going between them.

It's far better to think of the Light Side as balance and the Dark Side as imbalance. Harmony vs. disharmony, order vs chaos.

[Hopeless]

I always pictured it as the Jedi was the result of countless generations of a monumental organisation that had via Chinese Whispers had forgotten the real point of their existence.

By that I mean all it takes is one generation failing to pass on their teachings or one generation deciding some teachings needed to be redacted even though its their own personal grudge rather than decent reasoning.

The Sith are the natural result of such imbalance its not that they caused this it was the Jedi who brought it on by failing to understand they aren't the be all and omniscient organisation they thought they were.

The biggest difference with Luke was that he wasn't saddled with their problems and lack of foresight after all none of them thought Darth Vader could be redeemed and even Palpatine didn't understand why his machinations were doomed to fail in the way they did.

If I had to alter anything I'd have revealed that millennia ago the Jedi and Sith we know from KOTOR merged and rebuilt the order creating a secret order they labelled the Sith to help maintain the peace through occasionally sowing discord so the Jedi would have an actual purpose.

This was eventually devolved into giving the Republic the belief that the Jedi were essential to their existence thereby involving them in their political agendas which ultimately corrupted them and eventually the Sith fell under the control of someone who recognised the potential for change and tried to use that to become Emperor.

I still think whatever was hidden in that Sith Shrine was responsible for Palpatine's decline and that ROTJ was his attempt to free himself meaning whilst he could have killed Luke easily he did what he did to provoke Vader into killing him so freeing him from whatever caused his madness.

The real question is was it Snoke and why is he so scared of Luke as a result?

[Aotrs Commander]

I agree to the proposed statement, both in the in-universe narrative and in the meta-sense in both old and new continuities.

Less magic-space samurai, more starships.

[McNum]

I blame The Force, to be honest. It is not some impartial natural power that people with the right mindset and talent can tap into, it's a living thing that has its own plans and agendas. The Jedi try to listen to it, the Sith try to dominate it. And various other groups, like the Witches of Dathomir, use it in their own special ways. But that also makes everyone vulnerable to subtle manipulations. Want the Jedi to do something? Hint at it as the Will of The Force. Want Sith to do something? Show them how it will grant them power. Then laugh as you're playing the entire galaxy like some mad puppeteer.

I believe Aorts said it earlier somewhere, but a movie with a name like "The Force Awakens" really should be a cosmic horror story. The Force is no longer satisfied playing puppet master. It's awakening... and it's coming this way.

[Peelee]

Frankly, George Lucas is responsible for everything wrong in the Star Wars universe (Legends). Mostly because he can't just leave well enough alone, he's gotta change things every damn chance he gets.

First, anyone can be a Jedi. Then, the Force runs strong in family lines. Then, Yoda trained Obi-wan, then he trained everyone at a very young age. Then, there's a prophecy. Then, there's midi-chlorians. Then, there's....

The list goes on.

[Gnoman]

First, anyone can be a Jedi.

Name a single time this was stated in the OT. You can't, because it never was. If anything, Vader's comment when attacking Luke("The Force is Strong with this one") very strongly suggest the opposite - NOT everyone has significant ability with the Force.

[kraftcheese]

Frankly, George Lucas is responsible for everything wrong in the Star Wars universe (Legends). Mostly because he can't just leave well enough alone, he's gotta change things every damn chance he gets.

First, anyone can be a Jedi. Then, the Force runs strong in family lines. Then, Yoda trained Obi-wan, then he trained everyone at a very young age. Then, there's a prophecy. Then, there's midi-chlorians. Then, there's....

The list goes on.
The only bad thing I can see on your list is midichlorians to be honest.

[The Glyphstone]

Even midichlorians are an example of 'good idea, terrible execution'. The EU already had Force-sensitive animals, up to and including entire ecosystems that used the Force despite being non-sapient beasts. Taking that one step down and having microscopic parasitic organisms that fed on Force energy was logical, and so doing blood tests to determine their density could be a reliable indicator of a person's potential as a force user. Making them some sort of intelligent symbiotes that enabled a person to use the Force, instead of a passive side effect, was the screwup.

[digiman619]

Even midichlorians are an example of 'good idea, terrible execution'. The EU already had Force-sensitive animals, up to and including entire ecosystems that used the Force despite being non-sapient beasts. Taking that one step down and having microscopic parasitic organisms that fed on Force energy was logical, and so doing blood tests to determine their density could be a reliable indicator of a person's potential as a force user. Making them some sort of intelligent symbiotes that enabled a person to use the Force, instead of a passive side effect, was the screwup.

My personal headcannon vis-a-vis medichlorians: Just as some microorganisms can only live in especially pure water sources, medichlorians can only live in beings with a strong connection to the Force.The stronger they are, the purer the environment so more of the medichlorians can grow.

Man, that one line ruined so much about the Jedi. And to think all of it could have been avoided if Qui-Gon had a DBZ scouter...

[Dragonexx]

That's basically what they are, at least in some legends stuff I've read. They aren't the source of the force, just both an indicator of it to some degree and a form of symbiosis (they're present in every living thing that is cell-based and were supposedly based of mitochondria). The original point of midi-chlorians was actually for power-levels.

As to anyone being able to become a jedi, perhaps not to that degree, but according to Yoda, everyone has some connection to the force.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR10RgykdNw

[An Enemy Spy]

I think the simple act of existing in Star Wars qualifies you as having some connection the Force. That's still a very long way from being able to channel it though.

[StarvingGamer]

This is why everyone needs to play KotOR 2

[An Enemy Spy]

This is why everyone needs to play KotOR 2

That game is so buggy and disjointed. It's a real shame because you can see what a great game it would have been had the production not gone to crap.

[kraftcheese]

That game is so buggy and disjointed. It's a real shame because you can see what a great game it would have been had the production not gone to crap.
It's not perfect, but there's a great mod that I'd recommend that restores a bunch of cut content to it; funnily enough named The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod. You can get it through the Steam Workshop or just the old way through the moddb page (I did it that way and I'm a goober with that kinda stuff).

(Mostly) fixes bugs, restores some quests, dialogue options, items, etc; there's even an option to restore a cut PLANET that Obsidian didn't have time to ship the game with. I found it pretty playable earlier this year but YMMV.

Sorry folks, I think I'm gonna go do a KOTOR 2 replay again; I do love it so.

[kraftcheese]

This is why everyone needs to play KotOR 2
You're not wrong my friend...Kreia might not be entirely in the right, but she sure has a point about the Jedi order.

[Peelee]

Name a single time this was stated in the OT. You can't, because it never was. If anything, Vader's comment when attacking Luke("The Force is Strong with this one") very strongly suggest the opposite - NOT everyone has significant ability with the Force.

It's never stated so much as it's very heavily implied in Star Wars. Obi-Wan tells Luke he should train to be a Jedi without mentioning, "oh, it's a special thing that very few people are chosen for, and you are one of the few," and Tarkin and Luke both talk about it as a belief system. Vader says "The Force is strong with this one," yes, after we explicitly see Luke getting trained to use the Force. The second movie vaguely stops this idea this, and the third strongly hints the other direction, but nothing in the OT ever says definitively one way or another, and the original film indicated that people just needed training.

This change throughout the trilogy fits into my general complaint theme here of "Lucas's changes are bad."

[Friv]

I'm going to have to invoke Death of the Author: I don't care what Lucas has to say; The Dark Side of the Force is still part of the Force! When you remove one of the legs of a chair it's going to fall.

The Dark Side is a part of the Force in much the same way that cancer is a part of your body.

Cancer is a part of your body. It's your own cells, mutated into a weapon that sickens and consumes you until you die. If you let it take hold, removing it will kill you, but catching it early isn't easy and the medicine used to fight it is hard on you.

If we're really extending this metaphor, using the Dark Side is like smoking. It gives you a short-term rush, it's horribly addictive so you keep coming back to it, but there's a hidden cost that you don't notice until it's too late, and not everyone is affected equally so it's possible that you'll think it never happens to you.

[An Enemy Spy]

It's never stated so much as it's very heavily implied in Star Wars. Obi-Wan tells Luke he should train to be a Jedi without mentioning, "oh, it's a special thing that very few people are chosen for, and you are one of the few," and Tarkin and Luke both talk about it as a belief system. Vader says "The Force is strong with this one," yes, after we explicitly see Luke getting trained to use the Force. The second movie vaguely stops this idea this, and the third strongly hints the other direction, but nothing in the OT ever says definitively one way or another, and the original film indicated that people just needed training.

This change throughout the trilogy fits into my general complaint theme here of "Lucas's changes are bad."

You're really stretching here. Obi Wan telling Luke he should train as a Jedi is not a statement that anyone can be a Jedi. Obi Wan already knows that Luke is strong in the Force and is steering him toward being a Jedi. Never in the series is it even implied that just anyone can join the Jedi Order.

[Peelee]

You're really stretching here. Obi Wan telling Luke he should train as a Jedi is not a statement that anyone can be a Jedi. Obi Wan already knows that Luke is strong in the Force and is steering him toward being a Jedi. Never in the series is it even implied that just anyone can join the Jedi Order.

It's a story. In the first movie, taken alone, there is no indication whatsoever that bring trained as a Jedi required any requirements other than "someone who can train you." The audience has no reason to believe Luke has special blood that let's him be a Jedi, and Lucas is on record that anyone was capable of being a Jedi was his intent.

[Dragonus45]

Fair enough,


I'm going to have to invoke Death of the Author: I don't care what Lucas has to say; The Dark Side of the Force is still part of the Force! When you remove one of the legs of a chair it's going to fall.


Just popping in to say that death of the author is a bunk concept, and even when its not his playhouse any more at the end of the day Lucas wrote the story and Lucas is the one who knows what it means to bring balance to the force.

[An Enemy Spy]

When people invoke Death of the Author, what they usually mean is "I don't care what the text says, I'm replacing it with my own fanon and you're not allowed to disagree with me."

[Cikomyr]

When people invoke Death of the Author, what they usually mean is "I don't care what the text says, I'm replacing it with my own fanon and you're not allowed to disagree with me."

Nop. Its means "i dont care of what the author thinks that he hasnt put in his text. If it was important, he should have put it in his story."

[NecroDancer]

i like the idea that there is no light/dark side to the force, it's just power acceded through different emotions. The "lighter" emotions give you more "stable" powers, while the "darker" emotions give you stronger powers but for a price.

Does that mean the darker emotions are evil and bad? No it just means they're more dangerous to use. Both the Jedi and the Sith are imbalancing the force be used they both only focus on one side of it, I honestly wonder how the Jedi can call themselves good when they actively discriminate against other force users who don't follow their philosophy.

The Sith code is as follows

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me."

This code is focused on living life to its fullest and caring about oneself. The code encourages growth and change, a desire to become better than you were before, it is not necessarily evil (a better world might be "d*ckish").

And the Jedi code is as follows

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

This code is focused on peace and humbleness, good traits but they also cause a fear of change and no desire to test the boundaries of ones self. If a society followed this code it would become stagnant and never advance.

I feel that the best force user would be someone who follows both these codes, has ambition but also knows when to stop, uses both the dark and light side of the force, thinks of themselves and also cares for others. In other words the best force user would be someone who has a complete set of emotions and dosn't try to "purge" themselves of the ones they don't like.

[digiman619]

i like the idea that there is no light/dark side to the force, it's just power acceded through different emotions. The "lighter" emotions give you more "stable" powers, while the "darker" emotions give you stronger powers but for a price.

Does that mean the darker emotions are evil and bad? No it just means they're more dangerous to use. Both the Jedi and the Sith are imbalancing the force be used they both only focus on one side of it, I honestly wonder how the Jedi can call themselves good when they actively discriminate against other force users who don't follow their philosophy.

The Sith code is as follows

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me."

This code is focused on living life to its fullest and caring about oneself. The code encourages growth and change, a desire to become better than you were before, it is not necessarily evil (a better world might be "d*ckish").

And the Jedi code is as follows

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

This code is focused on peace and humbleness, good traits but they also cause a fear of change and no desire to test the boundaries of ones self. If a society followed this code it would become stagnant and never advance.

I feel that the best force user would be someone who follows both these codes, has ambition but also knows when to stop, uses both the dark and light side of the force, thinks of themselves and also cares for others. In other words the best force user would be someone who has a complete set of emotions and dosn't try to "purge" themselves of the ones they don't like.

Ah, the Sith are red, the Jedi are white, at least in the Magic: the gathering sense.

[Keltest]

Nop. Its means "i dont care of what the author thinks that he hasnt put in his text. If it was important, he should have put it in his story."

That's not what it means at all. It means that an author's interpretation of events is not more or less valid than any other person's interpretation of events. It doesn't mean they aren't allowed to declare something (non)canon outside of the body of their work.

[NecroDancer]

Ah, the Sith are red, the Jedi are white, at least in the Magic: the gathering sense.

I feel like the Sith are black/red, while the Jedi has traces of green(tradition) and blue(mental harmony)

[Cikomyr]

That's not what it means at all. It means that an author's interpretation of events is not more or less valid than any other person's interpretation of events. It doesn't mean they aren't allowed to declare something (non)canon outside of the body of their work.

...yhea, that's what I said.

If you wanted your own personal interpretation of things to be the official, then put it in the damn book/movie. Otherwise, your point of view is as basically invalid as any other.

[GloatingSwine]

That's not what it means at all. It means that an author's interpretation of events is not more or less valid than any other person's interpretation of events. It doesn't mean they aren't allowed to declare something (non)canon outside of the body of their work.

It kinda does, because the point is that the text is taken as a whole and complete thing, and no external information is allowed, even subsequent pronouncements of the author about what bits of the text should and should not be paid attention to or what he intended them to say.

Meaning is a construct of the reader/viewer based on the text and their own experience.

[Dragonus45]

Which would make sense, accept for the part where the author is the one who wrote the story. That means that he IS the one who gets to say what it was that he meant to say. I mean, how on earth do you go up to a person and say, I know you said this but you really meant that because I said so.

[Lethologica]

Which would make sense, accept for the part where the author is the one who wrote the story. That means that he IS the one who gets to say what it was that he meant to say. I mean, how on earth do you go up to a person and say, I know you said this but you really meant that because I said so.
The author is obviously the best authority on their own interpretation of the text they wrote. They're also extremely knowledgeable about the text, so their interpretation of the text should carry a lot of weight even after death of the author comes into play. However, the the author's interpretation is often not the only useful way to interpret the text. Sometimes it's even a bad way to interpret the text (e.g. Twilight's stalker behavior as romance, or 50 Shades as BDSM). So it is possible to say that the text means something other than what the author intended and be correct.

[Talakeal]

Which would make sense, accept for the part where the author is the one who wrote the story. That means that he IS the one who gets to say what it was that he meant to say. I mean, how on earth do you go up to a person and say, I know you said this but you really meant that because I said so.

I think you have it kind of backwards.

It isn't "I know you said this but you really meant that because I said so," instead it is the author saying "I know I wrote X, but what I really meant was Y."

IMO Word of God is a useful tool for clarification, but it does not give the author any sort of supernatural ability to actually change what is written on the page.



Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.
.

Did they change the code at some point? The one I remember went "There is no X, there is only Y".

[hamishspence]

Did they change the code at some point? The one I remember went "There is no X, there is only Y".

Both versions of the Jedi code exist, in both the newcanon and the Legendsverse.

[GloatingSwine]

Which would make sense, accept for the part where the author is the one who wrote the story. That means that he IS the one who gets to say what it was that he meant to say. I mean, how on earth do you go up to a person and say, I know you said this but you really meant that because I said so.

What the author meant to say is irrelevant. Only what is actually in the text is relevant.

Meaning is constructed by the reader, not the author. That's an unavoidable consquence of the fact that every reader has a unique set of life experiences through which to view a given text. If you've spent your entire life getting kicked the balls daily and I haven't, we're going to have very different interpretations of a work which extols the virtues of a swift kick in the balls and neither of them are going to be influenced by what the author thought when he was writing it.

[Blue Lantern]

What the author meant to say is irrelevant. Only what is actually in the text is relevant.

Meaning is constructed by the reader, not the author. That's an unavoidable consquence of the fact that every reader has a unique set of life experiences through which to view a given text. If you've spent your entire life getting kicked the balls daily and I haven't, we're going to have very different interpretations of a work which extols the virtues of a swift kick in the balls and neither of them are going to be influenced by what the author thought when he was writing it.

Yeah, but in the actual text having 2 jedi and 2 sith is a bad thing, the galaxy is in a state of tyranny and darkness, the innocent are oppressed, yadda yadda yadda.
Is only when the sith are dead that we have the happy ending, at least until a new story is needed.
I have not read a lot of the Star Wars EU but what I did the conclusion of the story was always to have the dark side defeated.

People may not like Lucas statements or changes, but what is actually in the text is for the happy ending to happen the need is the Dark side to be vanquished, at least for a time.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, but in the actual text having 2 jedi and 2 sith is a bad thing, the galaxy is in a state of tyranny and darkness, the innocent are oppressed, yadda yadda yadda.
Is only when the sith are dead that we have the happy ending, at least until a new story is needed.
I have not read a lot of the Star Wars EU but what I did the conclusion of the story was always to have the dark side defeated.

People may not like Lucas statements or changes, but what is actually in the text is for the happy ending to happen the need is the Dark side to be vanquished, at least for a time.

I wasn't actually commenting on Star Wars specifically, but what's also in the text is that the short sighted teachings of the Jedi particularly WRT healthy personal relationships are what led directly to Anakin's fall (and it was the emotional connection of a personal relationship which also redeemed him, the very thing the Jedi were so fearful of that they believed that they should be wholly denied).

Irrespective of the nature of the force and the balance therein, the Jedi at least in the final days of the Republic were rubbish and aided their own downfall at basically every step.

[Keltest]

I wasn't actually commenting on Star Wars specifically, but what's also in the text is that the short sighted teachings of the Jedi particularly WRT healthy personal relationships are what led directly to Anakin's fall (and it was the emotional connection of a personal relationship which also redeemed him, the very thing the Jedi were so fearful of that they believed that they should be wholly denied).

Irrespective of the nature of the force and the balance therein, the Jedi at least in the final days of the Republic were rubbish and aided their own downfall at basically every step.

Which was also intentional, but unrelated to the natural state of the Force.

[GloatingSwine]

Which was also intentional, but unrelated to the natural state of the Force.

True, but if we're dealing with Legends, the complacency and passivity of the Jedi in the face of the Mandalorians was the proximate cause of Revan's search for power and subsequent fall as well.

It's not an absolute, but it's a somewhat regular pattern of behaviour that the Jedi's teachings cultivate their own nemeses, making it highly questionable that they understand what balance within the force would mean.

[Bobb]

True, but if we're dealing with Legends, the complacency and passivity of the Jedi in the face of the Mandalorians was the proximate cause of Revan's search for power and subsequent fall as well.

It's not an absolute, but it's a somewhat regular pattern of behaviour that the Jedi's teachings cultivate their own nemeses, making it highly questionable that they understand what balance within the force would mean.

After creating and safeguarding some of the longest intervals of peace known to the setting, sure.

But they had nothing to do with the rise of the mandalorian empire so your specific example was more that the Jedi system had atrophied due to growing fat off their success. Nothing lasts forever.

[Keltest]

After creating and safeguarding some of the longest intervals of peace known to the setting, sure.

But they had nothing to do with the rise of the mandalorian empire so your specific example was more that the Jedi system had atrophied due to growing fat off their success. Nothing lasts forever.

Indeed, and while the Jedi's teachings did create problems with Darth Vader, it took Palpatine actively manipulating him to actually turn him against the Order. If theres a pattern to be found here, its that the Jedi eventually atrophy if they aren't faced with periodic threats to rejuvenate them.

[Starbuck_II]

The Dark Side is a part of the Force in much the same way that cancer is a part of your body.

Cancer is a part of your body. It's your own cells, mutated into a weapon that sickens and consumes you until you die. If you let it take hold, removing it will kill you, but catching it early isn't easy and the medicine used to fight it is hard on you.


Cancer is more descriptive.
Cancer is when your body breaks the rules on telomeres. Usually, your body's cells have/has a limit on number of times it can reproduce. Somehow, your body/cells breaks the rules and keeps doing infinitely (also really fast).

Your body isn't meant to do it that quick. But yes, otherwise your words are true.


So what is Legends?

[GloatingSwine]

After creating and safeguarding some of the longest intervals of peace known to the setting, sure.

But they had nothing to do with the rise of the mandalorian empire so your specific example was more that the Jedi system had atrophied due to growing fat off their success. Nothing lasts forever.

My example was that the Jedi's passivity created Revan.

In both that case and the case of the movies, the Jedi become calcified and useless in the face of a major crisis, whether the crisis is directly manipulated by an agent of the dark side or not, and the resulting calamity almost wipes them out.

Balance, therefore, seems to require an occasional wiping of the slate, even if the dark side is too chaotic and self defeating to sustain itself for long and the Jedi rise again in short order.

[Cikomyr]

My example was that the Jedi's passivity created Revan.

In both that case and the case of the movies, the Jedi become calcified and useless in the face of a major crisis, whether the crisis is directly manipulated by an agent of the dark side or not, and the resulting calamity almost wipes them out.

Balance, therefore, seems to require an occasional wiping of the slate, even if the dark side is too chaotic and self defeating to sustain itself for long and the Jedi rise again in short order.

I am not so sure. Seems to me its the crisis that makes the Jedi fall to the Dark side. Its when the Jedi actually steps in as Instrument of War; they renege on their pacifist spiritual vows because of pride.

And they fall.

Problem is when.. the galatic people see the Jedi like the majority of Star Wars fanboys: as Lasersword-weilding Superwarriors. And thus ask "if you are so powerful, why cant you help us deal with our problems?"

The Jedi fall not because they became calcified. The Jedi fall because the Republic they love and cherish has grown so decadent the peace-loving monks have no choice but to step in as an elite fighting force.

When the common people decided that their protection should be the Jedi's burden rather than their own.

[digiman619]

Cancer is more descriptive.
Cancer is when your body breaks the rules on telomeres. Usually, your body's cells have/has a limit on number of times it can reproduce. Somehow, your body/cells breaks the rules and keeps doing infinitely (also really fast).

Your body isn't meant to do it that quick. But yes, otherwise your words are true.


So what is Legends?

"Legends" is the new term for the original Expanded Universe. Seeing as they didn't want the new movies to be shackled to the details of books written decades ago, they just slapped the Legends logo on it and declared it to be a separate continuity.

[Gnoman]

I am not so sure. Seems to me its the crisis that makes the Jedi fall to the Dark side. Its when the Jedi actually steps in as Instrument of War; they renege on their pacifist spiritual vows because of pride.

And they fall.


In the old canon, the thousand years prior to the OT was the only period in the history of the Jedi when they didn't have an army, had no battle fleets, and a de jure role in ruling the Republic. They were disarmed after the last Sith Wars in an attempt to keep the philosophical conflict between Jedi and Sith from breaking out into galactic warfare again, but there was a far greater period of time when the Jedi were active warriors and didn't have a Sith problem.

[hamishspence]

In the old canon, the thousand years prior to the OT was the only period in the history of the Jedi when they didn't have an army, had no battle fleets, and a de jure role in ruling the Republic. They were disarmed after the last Sith Wars in an attempt to keep the philosophical conflict between Jedi and Sith from breaking out into galactic warfare again, but there was a far greater period of time when the Jedi were active warriors and didn't have a Sith problem.

Before the Sith, the Jedi preferred staying out of Republic's wars, unless the situation grew so bad that they felt they just had to step in:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Recusal
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pius_Dea_Crusades
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Seventh_Alsakan_Conflict

[Cikomyr]

I also have a really, really hard time accepting any conflict against the Sith as an "ideological conflict".

This is a philosophy that embraces a corrupting force. Turns you into a power-hungry sociopath with megalomaniac delusions and the worst aspect of made-up psychopathic Darwinisms.

Siths and Dark Force Users are an evil to be opposed in their own right. Not merely because of "philosophical differences."

The fact is, Force Users are potential ticking bomb. The Jedi Order and philosphy is a mean of protecting the civilization and "mundanes" against the power of the Dark Side. The Order is meant to protect people against what a Jedi could have been, not turn them into weapons or war.

[hamishspence]

The fact is, Force Users are potential ticking bomb. The Jedi Order and philosphy is a mean of protecting the civilization and "mundanes" against the power of the Dark Side.

It would appear that the first conflict that set the Jedi on this path was the Force Wars:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Wars

before then, they were the Je'daii, which dabbled in both sides:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order