Demon types

[bookkeeping guy]

You know it would be fun to put together some demon vs good campaign stuff.

But to do so I think it would be more fun to have other demons besides just succubus' for female demon types. Succubus are kind of interesting at first, but they get overused a lot. Wondering what other types are doable for female hotty types.

Thanks for advise.

[Deophaun]

Answering with lilitu would probably be a cheat, as they're just promoted succubae. Yochlols would be different, although in terms of lore that pushes you to dealing with Lolth. Both are found in the Fiendish Codex I.

[Falcon X]

First off, do you mean strictly the CE demons, or the breadth of fiends (Demons, Devils, and Daemons)?

Unfortunately, most fiends are ugly creatures. Many also have no gender. Many also have shape changing or illusory powers that could make them appear as a beautiful woman.

Glasya is a great archdevil to use. She is young, dynamic, and agressive.

[Segev]

Right in the core for demons is the Type V - or, as they're called in 2e and later, Marilith - demon. Snake-tails instead of legs, six arms, but otherwise human-looking. They're generals in demonic armies, serving right below Type VI (Balor)s in most hierarchies. Of course, being demons, "hierarchy" is a loose term. But Type Vs are the most likely to uphold one. They're still CE, but they value a certain amount of planning.

[Inevitability]

Take a single level in Fiend of Corruption, which demons won't have any trouble qualifying for. Now anything, from dretch to balor, can look like a 'female hotty type'!

[Psyren]

I think a female balor would be pretty interesting/funny.

[inuyasha]

Now, I don't know if this is worth bringing up, as they aren't really hotties (not to shame anyone who's into this) but there are the Babau.

I bring the babau up because in 2nd edition (which has arguably the most detailed and interesting lore on extraplanar things) they are described as recruiters for the abyssal side of the blood war, which means they kind of fall into the role of corrupters/seducers.

Also they technically work as recruiters for demons, but I figured you might want to hear about that aspect of them anyway, since I think it makes them much more interesting than the generic "goopy assassin demon".

[MisterKaws]

Well, there are Mariliths, Lilitus, Yochlols, and if you want something really strong, there's Graz'zt's little sister, Rhyxali, the queen of succubi, Malcanthet, and the queen of Mariliths, Shaktari.

[Extra Anchovies]

Remember, kids: women are either lying seductresses bent on stealing your soul, or they're literal snakes.
Ah, D&D.

Demons are chaos in physical form. It's beyond unlikely that they (collectively or individually) would have any sort of gender framework of their own, and most if not all demonic forms are sexless unless they use shape-changing magic to take on the body of a different sort of creature.

That being said, a demon who encounters societies in which genders exist could quite possibly choose to assume a particular gender, at least nominally. It's likely that those demons would generally pick the most socially advantageous genders; a demon who spends time among drow would have good reason to present themselves as a woman, for example. As creatures of chaos, it might also be common for demons to frequently change the gender they identify themselves as belonging to, or to adopt styles or mannerisms from multiple genders at once.

[Eisfalken]

I think a female balor would be pretty interesting/funny.

Actually, all things considered, that's a perfectly valid idea. The Abyss is a place of ultimate Chaos, after all; why not gender-swap some of them? One of the only "constants" that D&D states about the Abyss is how it always dreaming up new and terrible things. A female balor seems the least kind of alteration.

[Eisfalken]

Demons are chaos in physical form. It's beyond unlikely that they (collectively or individually) would have any sort of gender framework of their own, and most if not all demonic forms are sexless unless they use shape-changing magic to take on the body of a different sort of creature.

Actually... not true. FC1 specifically states that demons can have a gender if they choose to, usually to create half-fiends (when not using magic or curses).


That being said, a demon who encounters societies in which genders exist could quite possibly choose to assume a particular gender, at least nominally. It's likely that those demons would generally pick the most socially advantageous genders; a demon who spends time among drow would have good reason to present themselves as a woman, for example. As creatures of chaos, it might also be common for demons to frequently change the gender they identify themselves as belonging to, or to adopt styles or mannerisms from multiple genders at once.

I can think of a lot of horrific Chaotic Evil acts involving the assumption of certain gender characteristics, but it is far from this message boards' tolerance for such discussions.

[Segev]

Remember, kids: women are either lying seductresses bent on stealing your soul, or they're literal snakes.
Ah, D&D.
By that logic, men are either stupid brutes out to kill and torture for the fun of it, or sniveling liars who'll take you for all you're worth when your back is turned.

We're talking about demons; of COURSE all of them are reprehensible. The fact that female demons are reprehensible is not misogyny. :smallsigh: It's misdemony, perhaps, but it's accurate misdemony. :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

Actually... not true. FC1 specifically states that demons can have a gender if they choose to, usually to create half-fiends (when not using magic or curses).

That's not entirely accurate, but thank you for bringing it up.


Reproduction: Some demons can have sex if they choose (though not all of them have the necessary “equipment”), but it is not necessary for procreation, since new demons are formed directly from the chaos of the Abyss. Demons that can have sex usually do so only as a means to create half-fiends, though such creatures can be created in other ways (through arcane magic or curses).

The first sentence establishes that there are demons with anatomical sexes and demons without anatomical sexes, but there's no clear categorization.

Regardless, gender and sex aren't interchangeable terms; rather, genders are sets of mannerisms and behavioral traits which are generally assigned to people based on their apparent sex. For demons without a readily apparent sex (such as the vrock), it's hard to say one way or another what gender they'd be seen as by the people they encounter. Most demons are referred to with "it" in their creature descriptions, but there may be published adventures and such which describe specific, individual demons as belonging to some specific gender.

[Afgncaap5]

Another weird quirk about D&D Lore is that demons can have a lot of weird origins, such as the Retriever who isn't even an Outsider. Theoretically if demons can choose their gender, you could have a female Retriever.

And on the note of female spider demons, I think I heard that Lolth counted as both a deity and a demon. I don't know if this is a bit of 1e or 2e lore that gradually phased out until it just wasn't ever mentioned again by the time 3.5 and 4e were a thing, but it's definitely a "thing" that gets mentioned from time to time. I just... can't figure out where.

I suppose a quick way to make homebrew demons might just be to toss the Fiendish template onto something. If you want an entire "type" of female demons, you could just pick a race and class and put the Fiendish Creature template on and declare it so. "The Garra" might be a race of female axe-wielding brutes with all the stats of a 3rd level Orcish Warblade with the ability to Smite Good once per day, for instance.

[Eisfalken]

That's not entirely accurate, but thank you for bringing it up.

The first sentence establishes that there are demons with anatomical sexes and demons without anatomical sexes, but there's no clear categorization.

Except it says they can choose which. So yeah. They can CHOOSE which one they want to be. There's nothing ambiguous or inaccurate about it.


Regardless, gender and sex aren't interchangeable terms; rather, genders are sets of mannerisms and behavioral traits which are generally assigned to people based on their apparent sex. For demons without a readily apparent sex (such as the vrock), it's hard to say one way or another what gender they'd be seen as by the people they encounter. Most demons are referred to with "it" in their creature descriptions, but there may be published adventures and such which describe specific, individual demons as belonging to some specific gender.

The problem here is that you are applying a specifically human-oriented definition of "gender" to creatures for whom the question is only slightly more than cosmetic. I mean that in the sense that sexuality, either the physiological reality or the gender behaviors of it, mean little to any demon, other than being a tool for them to get what they want. Me and you can debate about such matters among other hairless apes all you want, but demons shrug, pick gender and/or sex, and do whatever they feel like (which generally is "whatever is considered depraved or grotesque by most mortals").

This isn't actually just demons, though. What gender is a lantern archon? None. It has no gender behavior, nor even sexual characteristics; any of the scant descriptions of a lantern archon recognize it is beyond such comparisons. But it came from men and women who lived in the Material Plane. It simply evolved far past those unimportant considerations. Now it is on a path of transformation that has nothing to do with either gender or sex, and any such concerns are mostly those of mortals, not themselves.

Gender is a social construct, thus it only exists in the confines of the society that creates it. Few Outer Plane creatures even acknowledge it. Lawful beings seem to look down on the entire question as pedantic. Inevitables and modrons are constructs; angels and archons are "shaped" according to their duties; guardinals are more aligned to symbolic animal types. Among the Chaotic beings, it varies wildly by type. Eladrin sort of "care" about gender or sex as an identity thing, but there's no such thing as an eladrin born male who wants to be female; if the soul wants to be something, it becomes that when it gets there. They also don't have any sort of question about gender/sex when it comes to romance or other emotional issues; BOED seems to allude that Morwel may be "sleeping" with both Faerinaal and Gwynharwyf (both listed as consorts, which has a very specific sort of meaning aside from servant, champion, etc. used in that same book). The issue here is that eladrin represent certain ideas about social liberty and whatnot, so make of all that what you will.

But slaadi, the most Chaotic race in the multiverse, have no gender OR sex. They have specific forms of reproduction that don't involve sex, and socially have an oddly repressive society based on rule of strength (stronger slaadi rule and/or oppress weaker ones), which is further entrenched with different sub-species being more or less strong than others. Even yugoloths are largely androgynous beings more concerned with twisted knives in backs than in social niceties.

What's all this got to do with demon gender/sex? As I said: it doesn't matter. They pick whichever one gets the job done. Any other consideration other than their personal desires are irrelevant.

What is it demons desire, then? Corruption. Suffering. A dretch is too stupid to know more than "kill kill kill". But what about a succubus? Maybe it needs to create a bunch of half-fiends for some project. It could probably get knocked up, but it might take years that way. So maybe it becomes a male in both gender and sex and seeks out women to use as breeding stock. It not only doesn't care how they feel about the issue, but the more suffering it can cause doing this, the happier it will feel when the task is done. In 9 months, a dozen women's lives will be destroyed to some degree or other (actual death, shame, guilt, disowned, etc.), and a dozen half-fiend babies ready to to be raised in the most horrific environment known will be gathered up and spirited away. Nursed on the teat of some other half-fiend abomination, more than likely.

After that, it's just a matter of adopting the form best suited to the role. Is there something pyschological behind the fact most succubi are portrayed as female? Maybe. But... so are a lot of angels and archons. I'm sure you can hack out a term paper here about the subject.

Doesn't actually matter, because demons can choose to be either sex, and/or gender, as written in official material, and that's all you or I need to know as far as D&D goes. If you need there to be a meaning behind it, that's your problem, not mine.

[Extra Anchovies]

Except it says they can choose which. So yeah. They can CHOOSE which one they want to be. There's nothing ambiguous or inaccurate about it.

Let's take a look at that text again.

Reproduction: Some demons can have sex if they choose (though not all of them have the necessary “equipment”), but it is not necessary for procreation, since new demons are formed directly from the chaos of the Abyss. Demons that can have sex usually do so only as a means to create half-fiends, though such creatures can be created in other ways (through arcane magic or curses).
"Some demons can have sex if they choose". In that context, "have sex" refers to engaging in the activity, not to possessing or acquiring the anatomy. If the text said "can have a sex", then you would be correct, but that is not the case. What that clause means, then, is "some demons can have sex[ual relations] if they choose". An interpretation which allows all demons to assume any anatomical sex they want is shot down by the "not all of them have the necessary 'equipment'"; for a demon to not have the "necessary equipment", they have to be unable to select and/or acquire an anatomical sex.


Gender is a social construct... Inevitables and modrons are constructs

If an inevitable or modron attends a party, are they a social construct?

[Inevitability]

If an inevitable or modron attends a party, are they a social construct?

The inevitable will be at the party because someone there broke an oath/cheated death/escaped justice/broke spacetime/threatens the gods. It will not waste time engaging in social activities, except to gather information about its quarry.

The modron will be at the party because the Great Modron March is currently underway, and a few million of its kind are currently waltzing through a hole in what used to be the wall.

[bookkeeping guy]

there's more to gender than being a social construct...

At any rate I had another thought....

If demons in an AD&D campaign come from hell every now and then... they are immortal right? (Immortal in torment). That being the case then wouldn't they always be getting xp and therefore not strictly follow a template in levels & HD?

[Inevitability]

If demons in an AD&D campaign come from hell every now and then... they are immortal right? (Immortal in torment). That being the case then wouldn't they always be getting xp and therefore not strictly follow a template in levels & HD?

Word of God has it that XP gain doesn't work the same for non-PC's, so those demons would have to overcome many challenges to gain enough XP. Even then, only a few of them have the innate ability and training to actually gain class levels. There are demons with class levels, but they're rare, and the typical fiend is going to have no levels at all.

[MisterKaws]

And on the note of female spider demons, I think I heard that Lolth counted as both a deity and a demon. I don't know if this is a bit of 1e or 2e lore that gradually phased out until it just wasn't ever mentioned again by the time 3.5 and 4e were a thing, but it's definitely a "thing" that gets mentioned from time to time. I just... can't figure out where.

She's the ruler of the Demonweb Pits, and a former Demon Lord, so yeah, I think she qualifies as a demon.

[Kyberwulf]

Gonna have to go with the Air Bud ruling. The books never really say, the demons can only be of a certain sex. Some exceptions being made. It also doesn't ever really say that demons have the sexual body parts. Kind of puts a whole new look on Balors... as Ken dolls....

[Segev]

Gonna have to go with the Air Bud ruling. The books never really say, the demons can only be of a certain sex. Some exceptions being made. It also doesn't ever really say that demons have the sexual body parts. Kind of puts a whole new look on Balors... as Ken dolls....

"Maybe the Ken Doll worked so well for binding you because it was anatomically correct!"

[Nifft]

I think a female balor would be pretty interesting/funny.

And we shall call her Balorina.

[Braininthejar2]

I think there was a puzzle in Neverwinter Nights 2 where you had to gain cooperation of several fiends trapped in circles, haggling for true names and such - one question involved learning about one demon's mother - who turned out to be the hezrou in the next room - there was no physical indication until we learned.

I'd say they're like lizards in this regard - they have a gender most of the time, but all the relevant organs are concealed under the scales when not in use.

[Segev]

And we shall call her Balorina.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwje1ZeNitjPAhXLbD4KHamsAhYQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redbubble.com%2Fpeople%2Finun iverse%2Fworks%2F15144368-debbies-malibu-barbie-addams-family-values%3Fp%3Dmug&psig=AFQjCNF_eeTFTZCouc9mcZllS_GomR96iQ&ust=1476458335654000She's DELICATE. GRACEFUL.

[Karl Aegis]

G'Neethu, an example of a fiend of blasphemy from the Fiend Folio Web Enhancement, is a female Glabrezu. Lobster hand lady.

[Bohandas]

I'd say they're like lizards in this regard - they have a gender most of the time, but all the relevant organs are concealed under the scales when not in use.

That sounds extremely undemonic


The inevitable will be at the party because someone there broke an oath/cheated death/escaped justice/broke spacetime/threatens the gods. It will not waste time engaging in social activities, except to gather information about its quarry.

Or maybe it's really just a stripper dressed as an inevitable

(like instead of being dressed as a cop, get it?)

[Nifft]

That sounds extremely undemonic Perhaps gender-hiding was evolved as a way to avoid the attention of the Abyssal Gender-Specific Trapdoor Snapping Turtle-Snakes.

[Zaydos]

I can tell you what 2e book talks about the genders of fiends.

Faces of Evil, the Fiends.

For Baatezu:
Among all baatezu (save the erinyes, which are female only, and the lemure and nupperibos, which are utterly genderless), one third are male, one third are female, and one third are sexless. This holds true for each individual rank (so 1/3 of osyluths are female, and 1/3 are neither). Gender* may change through promotion, apparently to increase their understanding. Pit Fiends, however are an exception, they may select their gender upon reaching Pit Fiend, and may change it through the simple process of throwing themselves into the great torture pit of hell for 3 more days (I mean the promotion to pit fiend requires years in it). Pit fiends who go beyond pit fiend lose this benefit.

Also female baatezu are infertile and unable to bear children. Male baatezu may sire them though and are actively encouraged to go stud with mortal races. 3.5 (FCII) stated that erinyes reproduce sexually and are unique among baatezu species in being able to be born as baatezu. So the in-universe author of Faces of Evil apparently was wrong about erinyes.

For Tanar'ri:
Tanar'ri may change genders on demand, however they typically do so less as they grow older. This is probably because it takes a large amount of effort to do so, or simply because they let the stronger urge dominate. Then it goes on to talk about how they reproduce sexually. No mention is made of Cambions (half-fiend on the daddy side) or Alu-Fiends (succubus for moms) in this section, though couplings with mortals are mentioned (men are killed after sex, women usually die in childbirth).

For the Yugoloths:
They are hermaphroditic and capable of reproducing with each other as either the father (which is called male in this context) or mother (which is called female in this context), and when they don't currently want to be using their reproductive capabilities they are generally considered neither. Then it goes into detail about how lesser yugoloths always give birth to mezzoloths (the lowest rank**), yugoloths never breed outside of rank (no ultraloth would breed with a lowly arcanoloth), greater yugoloths give birth to their own rank with nycaloths forcing their young into death matches for the right to grow to adulthood, and arcanoloths that are born instead of promoted into the rank being incompetent. Ultraloths reproduce with themselves (unclear if this is due to being true hermaphrodites or asexual reproduction, but given the following I guess the former) but they give birth to incompetent arcanoloths. Implication is the only reason that the top ranking 'loths don't put an end to all this breeding and the incompetents who come with it is that 'loth ranks are stable except through sexual reproduction, and the other fiends convert petitioners to continuously swell their numbers.

For the Gehreleths:
They are sexually neuter. Apparently have no interest in sex, just killing. No increasing their numbers either, just spawn from corpses when another gehreleth is slain. Apparently some do take on social gender, or at least lie to mortals about it, but they remain sexually genderless. No one cares about the gehreleths.

It also talks about the gender of bodaks (theoretically what it is in life, but most of the time effectively genderless), hordelings (varies like everything about them), imps (after centuries of being genderless they are rewarded with a gender at the whim of their masters), quasits (have whatever gender the demon who made them or the wizard/priest who owns them wants them to; Xanxost the Blue Slaadi*** says little on this), larvae (despite being sometimes recognizable as their formal mortal self, no discernible gender), night hags (always female, if they mate with a fiend the child is always a hag), shadow fiends (apparently neuter, reproduce through evil magic??? little is known), tieflings (can be either, none, or both, they experiment whenever they can, the tiefling narrator doesn't say what they mean by that, also they know they can mate with most other humanoid races, they've tried it and it works).

I hope that answers all your questions on the genders of fiends, because it answered mine and I am going to go have a holy water bath to feel clean again.****

*Do note that this book was written in 97 and modern use of the term gender has changed since the 90s when it was commonly used for biological sex, and the book does some weird mixing of biological sex versus social gender where it's hard to at times tell what they think the word gender means.

**Canoloths are lower but are not true yugoloths but a servitor race they created.

***Xanxost is the only justification I have ever seen for the slaad as a thing.

****Yes I am undead. Yes this will destroy my corporeal form. Yes it is worth it.

[Braininthejar2]

That sounds extremely undemonic

google "turtle penis". You'll see how demonic it is just with ordinary reptiles.

[Extra Anchovies]

***Xanxost is the only justification I have ever seen for the slaad as a thing.

Do you mean that Xanxost is cool enough to make the rest of the slaad forgivable, or is there some bit of writing attributed to Xanxost that provides an actually sensible explanation for the silly space-frogs?

[Inevitability]

google "turtle penis". You'll see how demonic it is just with ordinary reptiles.

Words cannot describe the horror I am experiencing right now.

[Segev]

A slaadi witch forces her region of limbo to be a dune-swept desert, over which she is the mistress. She also has levels of Sandshaper, which give her a great deal of added control even should somebody of stronger will enter the region. She hides amongst these dunes and beneath the sandy ground from all who would frighten her.

She is the chicken slaad sand witch.

And that is the reason and justification for the slaad as a race!

[Zaydos]

Do you mean that Xanxost is cool enough to make the rest of the slaad forgivable, or is there some bit of writing attributed to Xanxost that provides an actually sensible explanation for the silly space-frogs?

I wouldn't even say 'to make the rest of the slaad forgivable' but the former. Xanxost is cool, and shows that individual slaad can be well-written even if they make no gosh darn sense as the exemplars of Limbo and Chaos (my pet theory is that Limbo actually lacks a representative exemplar species).