crossbow swift-hunter Help me improve my build

[Nosta]

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Ranger 1
+1
+2
+2
+0

Track, Travel Devotion, Point Blank Shot (Human)
Favored Enemy: Undead, Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion)


2nd
Ranger 2
+2
+3
+3
+0

Rapid Shot
Combat Style


3rd
Scout 1
+2
+3
+5
+0

Travel Devotion (x2)
Skirmish 1d6


4th
Rogue 1
+2
+3
+7
+0

Hand Crossbow Focus (Drow of the Underdark)
Fighter Bonus Feat variant (Unearthed Arcana), Poison Use ACF (Drow of the Underdark)


5th
Scout 2
+3
+3
+8
+0


Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge


6th
Scout 3
+4
+4
+8
+1

Crossbow Sniper
Fast Movement +10', Trackless Step, Skirmish 1d6AC+1


7th
Scout 4
+5
+4
+9
+1

Swift Hunter
Bonus Feat, Skirmish 2d6AC+1


8th
Ranger 3
+6
+4
+9
+2

Heat Endurance (Sandstorm)
Skirmish 2d6AC+2


9th
Ranger 4
+7
+5
+10
+2

Manyshot (Champion), Improved Rapid Shot
Champion of the Wild ACF (Complete Champion), Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII)


10th
Ranger 5
+8
+5
+10
+2


Favored Enemy: Constructs, Skirmish 3d6AC+2


11th
Dragon Devotee 1
+8
+7
+10
+2


+2 Charisma, Natural Armor +1


12th
Dragon Devotee 2
+9
+8
+10
+2

Improved Skirmish
Draconic Resistance, Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4


13th
Dragon Devotee 3
+10
+8
+11
+3


+2 Constitution, Ignore ASF (0th, 1st), Sorcerer Casting 1st (true strike, sniper's shot)


14th
Dragon Devotee 4
+11
+9
+11
+3


Claws (1d3), Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4


15th
Unseen Seer 1
+11
+9
+11
+5

Travel Devotion (x3)
Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4


16th
Unseen Seer 2
+12
+9
+11
+6

Silent Spell
Advanced Learning


17th
Unseen Seer 3
+13
+10
+12
+6


Divination Spell Power +1


18th
Unseen Seer 4
+14
+10
+12
+7

Dragonfire Strike
Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4


19th
Highland Stalker 1
+15
+12
+12
+7


Mountain Stride


20th
Highland Stalker 2
+16
+13
+12
+7


Skirmish 9d6AC+2/11d6AC+4



Ok so is is pretty much my build for my new pc
My Stats are as follows
STR 16
Dex 34
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 18

I have 32000 gp to spend
so far I have bought a glaring eye graft
as for my cross bow I am getting it as a boon for my character from the gm via story.

what else should I spend my gp on and what should I change with my build

[Eisfalken]

Drop favored enemies; undead and outsider aren't good (due to most being mindless). Consider outsider (evil) and/or a common monster type (magical beast, monstrous humanoid, etc.) that allows the bonus to work for all listed rolls.

Swap Strength with Wisdom. Seriously, you do not need any Strength for this build, but Wisdom covers vital perception skills (Listen, Sense Motive, Spot) that could make the difference. Dump Charisma more; you only need a 16 there for the bonus spells (you can't get more from 18, which only gives you bonus 4th-level spells you can't have).

I wouldn't even bother with Silent Spell; it's not going to make any serious difference here. Dump Heat Endurance; get the spell or eternal wand for endure elements instead, and just use the feat for something else (Improved Initiative would be good).

It's kind of a convluted way to do hunter's eye on a Swift Hunter chassis, but I guess it comes out okay. I'd personally just stick to trying for scout 3 / mystic ranger 17, if the DM would let Swift Hunter work with it. Probably not nearly as much skirmish damage as you want, but way more spellcasting, which includes endure elements (dumping Heat Endurance), hunter's eye (without needing unseen seer), and lion's charge (which is pounce, thus hugely amazing if the DM finds a way to shut down your ranged attacks). Get Practiced Spellcaster to boost your CL, and I wouldn't even bother about all that Travel Devotion more than 1-2 times. You do get more BAB at +19, meaning you don't actually need Improved Rapid Shot (presuming you still got Hand Crossbow Focus and other stuff; my mystic ranger build actually has an additional +1 attack over yours when using Rapid Shot, due to the higher BAB). My build does short your saving throws by about -1 on... Fort and Will, I think? But Reflex is ahead by +1, so it sort of evens out, especially since you will be getting evasion (which is basically clutch for surviving area effects attacks like most breath weapons, fireballs, etc.).

[barakaka]

What do you need the Heat Endurance feat for? Are you gonna fight in a volcano?!?! That'd be super cool!

A level dip in Sneak Attack Fighter variant for Craven could be fun, though I'm not sure how worth it that'd be.

[Extra Anchovies]

Drop favored enemies; undead and outsider aren't good (due to most being mindless). Consider outsider (evil) and/or a common monster type (magical beast, monstrous humanoid, etc.) that allows the bonus to work for all listed rolls.

Undead is a good FE pick with Swift Hunter because the feat lets you deal skirmish damage to favored enemies regardless of their immunity to precision damage. I don't know how often outsiders are crit-immune, but Constructs would be another good choice of FE.

[gorfnab]

For Favored Enemies consider looking into the Arcane Hunter ACF (CM).

[justiceforall]

Your favoured enemy choices are fine. Those of you offering alternative advice on favoured enemies please read what the feat Swift Hunter does.

Heat Endurance is a bonus feat from Ranger 3. Those of you telling the OP to dump this in favour of something else, please read the basic Ranger class (and the Sandstorm ACF being used).


My main piece of advice would be to choose an alternate bonus feat instead of Manyshot (Champion), or simply retain Ranger spellcasting. Manyshot does not function with skirmish since it is a volley attack - you'd need to pick up Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to make skirmish work with it. And annoyingly, the way that feat is written it implies it does not work on crossbows (because it specifically states "arrows") so you'd want to get that cleared with your GM.

Consider adding a level of cleric (cloistered or otherwise) into the build in order to get more re-use out of your Travel Devotion feat(s). Your character has a high enough charisma to get two extra uses per day from a single level. This would free up 3 feats over the course of your character build. I assume from your build that your GM is ignoring multiclassing penalties anyway (since your level of rogue would already trip this off), so that should not matter.

[Darrin]

That's the build I suggested. The choices I made at every level were made for very specific reasons.


Drop favored enemies; undead and outsider aren't good (due to most being mindless). Consider outsider (evil) and/or a common monster type (magical beast, monstrous humanoid, etc.) that allows the bonus to work for all listed rolls.


Favored Enemy: Undead and Constructs are very deliberate choices. Those are the two most common enemy types you'll run into that are immune to precision damage. Swift Hunter lets you apply Skirmish damage to those creature types even if they're immune. While I really do love the Arcane Hunter ACF, there wasn't room for it here to outweigh what I considered more practical choices.



Swap Strength with Wisdom. Seriously, you do not need any Strength for this build, but Wisdom covers vital perception skills (Listen, Sense Motive, Spot) that could make the difference. Dump Charisma more; you only need a 16 there for the bonus spells (you can't get more from 18, which only gives you bonus 4th-level spells you can't have).


I didn't pick the ability scores but Wis 12-14 should be sufficient, as there isn't any Ranger casting to worry about. Knocking Cha down to 16 makes sense.



I wouldn't even bother with Silent Spell; it's not going to make any serious difference here.


Given as a class feature of Unseen Seer.



Dump Heat Endurance; get the spell or eternal wand for endure elements instead, and just use the feat for something else (Improved Initiative would be good).


I suggested taking Heat Endurance as the Sandstorm ACF because I considered it slightly more useful than vanilla Endurance. Mostly it's there as trade-bait for Dragonborn of Bahamut (for swapping in Dragon Wings/Dragon Tail).



It's kind of a convluted way to do hunter's eye on a Swift Hunter chassis, but I guess it comes out okay. I'd personally just stick to trying for scout 3 / mystic ranger 17, if the DM would let Swift Hunter work with it.


Yeah, took me over a year or so to notice that my typical Dragon Devotee/Unseen Seer build can't actually get hunter's eye at Unseen Seer 2. You can still UMD it, or try to slip in SpellSword 1 to get an extra caster level in there, but it costs you 1d6 skirmish damage. You can make that up by taking Dragonfire Strike at level 15 or 18, but that converts all your Skirmish damage to fire damage.




A level dip in Sneak Attack Fighter variant for Craven could be fun, though I'm not sure how worth it that'd be.

Very fun, yes, but not enough room for it in the build I posted.



My main piece of advice would be to choose an alternate bonus feat instead of Manyshot (Champion), or simply retain Ranger spellcasting. Manyshot does not function with skirmish since it is a volley attack - you'd need to pick up Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to make skirmish work with it. And annoyingly, the way that feat is written it implies it does not work on crossbows (because it specifically states "arrows") so you'd want to get that cleared with your GM.


Manyshot is there to get Improved Rapid Shot as quickly as possible. As others have pointed out (I think it was Extra Anchovies?), this might not be a solid pick, as it only negates a -2 attack penalty. Woodland Archer (RotW) or Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) might be stronger picks.



Consider adding a level of cleric (cloistered or otherwise) into the build in order to get more re-use out of your Travel Devotion feat(s). Your character has a high enough charisma to get two extra uses per day from a single level. This would free up 3 feats over the course of your character build. I assume from your build that your GM is ignoring multiclassing penalties anyway (since your level of rogue would already trip this off), so that should not matter.

I think I posted a version of the same build with a cleric dip in there? Maybe not with Crossbow Sniper. Yes, the cleric dip is more efficient at getting more "move + full attack" with Travel Devotion. The Rogue level in there is to pick up hand crossbow proficiency. I'll see if I can rejigger things with a cleric dip and maybe a EWP: Hand Crossbow in there somewhere, and post it later.

Nosta: I'll also put together a suggested shopping list of things to buy and post that later as well.

[Darrin]

Ok, build updated with Cloistered Cleric dip:




Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Ranger 1
+1
+2
+2
+0

Track, EWP: Hand Crossbow, Point Blank Shot (Human)
Favored Enemy: Undead, Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion)


2nd
Ranger 2
+2
+3
+3
+0

Rapid Shot
Combat Style


3rd
Scout 1
+2
+3
+5
+0

Hand Crossbow Focus
Skirmish 1d6


4th
Cloistered Cleric 1
+2
+5
+5
+2

Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
Turn Undead, Lore, Deity: Fharlanghn (Celerity Domain, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion)


5th
Scout 2
+3
+5
+6
+2


Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge


6th
Scout 3
+4
+6
+6
+3

Crossbow Sniper
Fast Movement +10', Trackless Step, Skirmish 1d6AC+1


7th
Scout 4
+5
+6
+7
+3

Swift Hunter
Bonus Feat, Skirmish 2d6AC+1


8th
Ranger 3
+6
+6
+7
+4

Heat Endurance (Sandstorm ACF)
Skirmish 2d6AC+2


9th
Ranger 4
+7
+7
+8
+4

Manyshot (Champion), Improved Rapid Shot
Champion of the Wild ACF (Complete Champion), Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII)


10th
Ranger 5
+8
+7
+8
+4


Favored Enemy: Constructs, Skirmish 3d6AC+2


11th
Dragon Devotee 1
+8
+9
+8
+4


+2 Charisma, Natural Armor +1


12th
Dragon Devotee 2
+9
+10
+8
+4

Improved Skirmish
Draconic Resistance, Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4


13th
Dragon Devotee 3
+10
+10
+9
+5


+2 Constitution, Ignore ASF (0th, 1st), Sorcerer Casting 1st (true strike, sniper's shot)


14th
Dragon Devotee 4
+11
+11
+9
+5


Claws (1d3), Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4


15th
Unseen Seer 1
+11
+11
+9
+7

Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium)
Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4


16th
Unseen Seer 2
+12
+11
+9
+8

Silent Spell
Advanced Learning


17th
Unseen Seer 3
+13
+12
+10
+8


Divination Spell Power +1


18th
Unseen Seer 4
+14
+12
+10
+9

Dragonfire Strike
Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4


19th
Highland Stalker 1
+15
+14
+10
+9


Mountain Stride


20th
Highland Stalker 2
+16
+15
+10
+9


Skirmish 9d6AC+2/11d6AC+4




I think I'm gonna keep Manyshot/Improved Precise Shot the way it is, just because it would be a pain to get it later. If you would rather not bother with it, then skip the Champion of the Wild ACF and take Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild) instead. Your initial attack penalty will be -2, but all your shots after your first miss will be at +4, so that may help you get more hits in the long run. You also get Ranger spells: instant of power (Forge of War), impeding stones (Cityscape), blockade (Complete Scoundrel), and so on.

With Charisma of at least 16, this gets 40 rounds of Travel Devotion per day instead of 30, and you get them as soon as you take the dip, so no waiting for more feat slots to open up.

Deity doesn't necessarily have to be Fharlanghn, and the second domain doesn't have to be Celerity. Normally I take the Magic domain so I can use spell-trigger items as a wizard, but that's somewhat redundant with Dragon Devotee 3. Water Devotion is tempting, and there are several deities who offer both Travel and Water:

Geshtai (TN, Living Greyhawk Deities 2.0)
Osprem (LN, Living Greyhawk Deities 2.0)
Procan (CN, Living Greyhawk Deities 2.0)
Velnius (NG, Living Greyhawk Deities 2.0)

The Elven pantheon also might be worth considering. You lose PB Shot as your human bonus feat, but get it back with the Elf domain. However, taking Wild Elf or Painted Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Int) cranks up your Dex a little bit higher. For Elven deities, Sehanine Moonbow is usually my go-to for Travel, and she's also got Trickery (create duplicates with the Devotion) and Dream domain (immunity to fear). Fenmaril Mestarine lets you pick up Animal Devotion, but that could cut into your swift actions, which you're probably going to need for something else.

[Darrin]

Ok, sounds like the Crossbow is taken care of, but you might want to get a Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault (3000 GP, MIC) on there ASAP. Also, don't forget the Gnome Crossbow Sight (150 GP, A&EG): treat longer-range targets as if they are two range increments closer.

Let's get you some armor:



Cost
Component Cost
Item/Property


6200

Twilight Breastplate +1



150
Masterwork



1000
+1 enhancement



3000
Twilight enhancement



600
Githcraft (DMGII, -5% ASF)



500
Feycraft (DMGII, -5% ASF)



500
Durable (Dungeoncraft)



250
Thistledown (RotW, -5% ASF)





Cost
Component Cost
Item/Property


4370

Dwarven Buckler Axe +1



20
Dwarven Buckler Axe (Complete Warrior/Races of Stone)



150
Masterwork



1000
+1 Enhancement



100
Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape)



2500
Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection (MIC)



Magic Items:



Cost
Location
Item


3400
Head
Scout's Headband (MIC)



Face
-empty-


500
Throat
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (MIC)


6000
Shoulders
Transposer Cloak (MIC)


800
Arms
Armband of Elusive Action (MIC)


1100
Hands
Gloves of the Starry Sky (MIC)


4000
Ring#1
Stormfire Ring (MIC)


2000
Ring#1
Ring of Protection +1 (DMG)



Torso
-empty-


750
Waist
Healing Belt


3200
Feet
Skirmisher Boots (MIC)


750
Shield
Wand of blade of blood (PHBII)


33070

Total



Hmmm... might have to lose the Transposer Cloak. Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000 GP, MIC) with Resistance +1 (1000 GP, MIC/DMG) would be 2K, which frees up some money for a Handy Haversack and maybe a few consumables. Travel Cloak (1200 GP, Magic of Faerun) is also quite nifty.

[justiceforall]

Hah I did wonder if this build was based off yours Darrin! Back when I was building my own Swift Hunter I read your threads on it. I didn't realise this build was in response to a request?


Manyshot is there to get Improved Rapid Shot as quickly as possible. As others have pointed out (I think it was Extra Anchovies?), this might not be a solid pick, as it only negates a -2 attack penalty. Woodland Archer (RotW) or Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) might be stronger picks.

If your GM chose to ignore the bizarre mention of "arrows" on Greater Manyshot where would you include it in the build?

Also just out of interest does your build assume that multiclass penalties are not in effect?

[remetagross]

I saw you used Dead Eye, so I assume Dragon Magazine is more or less allowed. You can try to snaggle a 2-level dip in the Targeteer variant Fighter. You can sacrifice one of the Fighter bonus feats to gain Volley of Arrows: 2 extra shots during a full-round action, but every attack gains -5. Meshes well with Deepwood Sniper. The other bonus feat is sacrificed to Vital Aim: add Dex to damage as precision damage, IIRC.

Edit: Ah, it's even better, it's an untyped bonus which does not apply on creatures immune to critical hits, and your Str modifier must not be negative. This variant comes from Dragon Magazine 310.

[Soranar]

I would keep undead as a favored enemy simply because they are just that common

Constructs however could be covered by a demolition crystal

Also, the arcane hunter ACF works against anything that casts spells or uses spell like abilities, that is a very broad category (which also covers dragons) but you have to take it at level 1

Trading your spells away is a tough choice IMO, a lot of ranger spells are really good for a swift hunter

-the spell vine strike would cover plant types
-hunter's eye can give you a few sneak attack die which is useful in certain situations
-some spells split your arrows into multiple arrows midair, not sure it it works with crossbows mind