Items vs spellcasters

[Britsky]

With enough Items, be them magical or not, can a mundane character be a consistant match for spell casting characters?
Which items would best boost a non magical character to taking on poweful spell casters?
What tactics should they use?
When does this fail?

[LordOfCain]

1. A well played spellcaster will win 9999/10000 times against a mundane without EXTREME opimization.
2. Magebane sword?
There aren't really any good anti-mage items.

[Britsky]

1. A well played spellcaster will win 9999/10000 times against a mundane without EXTREME opimization.
2. Magebane sword?
There aren't really any good anti-mage items.

Shame really, I quite enjoy characters without powers using Skill, Cunning and "tech" to take on those with powers. But i suppose it makes sense, a mage could probably do anything a mundane could do plus magic.

To use the Combat as sport and combat as war terminology, i can't really see a mundane ever beating a spellcaster in CoS, (at lower levels maybe, but higher, no)
But maybe in CaW, with the mage not nessecarily being aware there is a mundane trying to kill or defeat them. So essentially an ambush?

What "outside the box" tactics could work?

[ryu]

The reason items don't work as a haven is that mundanes aren't the only people with money and thus items. Mages of all sorts get an equally fat stack of loot to allocate, can free up more of it to use with their native abilities being things you'd buy items for, can use it more efficiently with item crafting, the native ability to trigger items you'd need UMD or command words for, more bodies too and thus actions thanks to various spells, familiars, companions, summoning, and so on. On top of all this caster feats tend to be stronger than non-caster feats because caster feats are directly augmenting the already powerful spellcasting and because more of them grant new abilities rather than just bigger numbers.

The fight isn't fair. It never was. A competent mage has every tool he needs to win against a non-mage, and most non-mage efforts to fight them won't even take significant effort to counter. That is the disparity in this system between mages and muggles.

[Britsky]

The reason items don't work as a haven is that mundanes aren't the only people with money and thus items. Mages of all sorts get an equally fat stack of loot to allocate, can free up more of it to use with their native abilities being things you'd buy items for, can use it more efficiently with item crafting, the native ability to trigger items you'd need UMD or command words for, more bodies too and thus actions thanks to various spells, familiars, companions, summoning, and so on. On top of all this caster feats tend to be stronger than non-caster feats because caster feats are directly augmenting the already powerful spellcasting and because more of them grant new abilities rather than just bigger numbers.

The fight isn't fair. It never was. A competent mage has every tool he needs to win against a non-mage, and most non-mage efforts to fight them won't even take significant effort to counter. That is the disparity in this system between mages and muggles.

It makes sense, magic is supposed to be powerful.
It would just be nice if there were more affordable ways to counter it. I've dallied with the idea of there being a material that can negate or nullify magic, like a suped up yet common version of cold iron.
But then you risk ruining the fun of playing a spell caster.

Obviously it is unbalanced, magic is better than not magic, it would just be nice if there were more ways for the simple folk to avoid getting crushed on the whim of any crazy wizard who passes through.

[J-H]

Go Google for some threads by a banned poster named Sir_Giacomo, or something like that. He made non-caster mage slayers through excessive use of partially charged wands, UMD, scrolls, and I don't remember what else.

You would want to pick up a bunch of class features; Spell Reflection (CM?) lets you trade a rogue class feature for deflecting a missed spell back at someone; Occult Slayer and Witch Hunter both help as well. The Mage Hunter feat line lets you ignore miss chances caused by Blink/Blur/Displacement/Fog Cloud/etc. I would add some martial initiator levels on to use your swift actions and to add some mobility or damage options.
The big challenges for a mundane are:
1) Finding the wizard (Gather Information? Pay someone to scry?)
2) Getting close to the wizard quickly (teleport, items of DDoor, a few maneuvers)
3) Keeping the wizard in place long enough to kill him (Stunning Fist, Binding weapon enchantment, a few maneuvers that daze/stun)

If you're fighting two wizards instead of one, and they're standing 40' apart? Forget it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Go Google for some threads by a banned poster named Sir_Giacomo, or something like that. He made non-caster mage slayers through excessive use of partially charged wands, UMD, scrolls, and I don't remember what else.Giacomo was kind of a moron*, and had little to no idea of what he was doing.

It is possible for an extremely highly optimized muggle abusing the hell out of the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) to beat a mid-op T1 character, but with an equal level of optimization, it's pretty much impossible at anything but the absolutely lowest levels of optimization (and that only because spellcasters tend to have lower optimization floors).






*Sorry, but he was.

[Eldariel]

You can use items to replicate basically anything a caster can do so someone with infinite wealth is just as good a caster as a caster is. It gets kinda pointless at that point though; everyone has everything and the game is naturally biased towards defense over offense so neither would be able to locate each other save for certain indirect methods (Elemental Weirds' infinite free action Contact Other Planes can do it by RAW but even deities' knowledge has limits so it might not work that reliably on closer inspection). It also gets painfully complex and where you draw the line between 'too broken to use' and 'really high powered' affects everything. And at that point, a mundane isn't really a mundane but he's a caster doing all his magic with items - kinda like an Artificer except he can't make that stuff himself.

[Name1]

There are ways for some Mundane characters to beat a caster (High Cha Fighters taking Leadership for followers and the Einherjar-Template to advance to DR 1 and snatch Alter Reality), but... Items are just as good as what they replicate, and that are spells. Sure, a scroll of Gate and powerstones of Fusion and Astral Seed along with a lot of Chaos Shuffeling can get your Fighter up to a cleric easily: Just fuse with a Solar, problem solved. But at that point, you aren't a mundane anymore: Just a caster with a different route to spellcasting.

Heck, Bastards and Bloodlines and Shadowdale allow for a half-titan beast of xvim IIRC. Sure, you'll cast like a Wizard and probably reach epic levels without doing much adventuring, but in the end, you are just another caster.

So no: With items, you can at most equal a spellcaster, and even that is questionable and out of your WBL by a long shot.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

With items, you can at most equal a spellcaster, and even that is questionable and out of your WBL by a long shot.Remember that magic items, unless explicitly created to be otherwise (which is ridiculously expensive and not usually worthwhile, unless you're going after a very specific purpose) have the minimum options for a spell cast at that level. So a scroll of fireball will almost always be at CL 5 with Int/Wis/Cha 13, and a save DC of 14. Far, far less potent than most level 5 wizards, who will likely have a DC of 3-4 more. Plus, items don't generally gain the benefits of feats or PrC/racial abilities from the caster, such as Spell Focus or Searing Spell (which a non-caster wouldn't have anyway).

[Name1]

Remember that magic items, unless explicitly created to be otherwise (which is ridiculously expensive and not usually worthwhile, unless you're going after a very specific purpose) have the minimum options for a spell cast at that level. So a scroll of fireball will almost always be at CL 5 with Int/Wis/Cha 13, and a save DC of 14. Far, far less potent than most level 5 wizards, who will likely have a DC of 3-4 more. Plus, items don't generally gain the benefits of feats or PrC/racial abilities from the caster, such as Spell Focus or Searing Spell (which a non-caster wouldn't have anyway).

Oh I know. To increase the DC to useable levels, it requires the maker to have an epic feat which only applies to that sort of item. You'd probably need to get Half-Titan Ice Assassins to craft it for you, with you shuffeling the necessary feats in and out via Chaos Shuffle. You can add metamagic feats to items, but that makes the cost even MORE prohibitive. That's why I said "at most": You can never beat a normal spellcaster, and if the normal spellcaster is in any way picking PRCs and non-metamagic feats, you are fighting a battle you can't win.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you pump out your sleight of hand, you can get close and slip an antimagic torc onto the mage. Then stab them in the face to death.

Queue the shroedingers mage builds:

[ryu]

If you pump out your sleight of hand, you can get close and slip an antimagic torc onto the mage. Then stab them in the face to death.

Queue the shroedingers mage builds:

Tinfoil hat foils the trick without even requiring permanent resources. Even assuming the wizard isn't that savvy they're entirely capable of flying from low level and good luck getting to that while under the effects of said torch. That's not Schroedinger. That's stuff literally every wizard and cleric can do and any variant of druid can do a similar trick was a non-metal hat or an acorn of far travel spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you pump out your sleight of hand, you can get close and slip an antimagic torc onto the mage. Then stab them in the face to death.There are plenty of ways to avoid being screwed by an AMF, the least of which is a tinfoil hat. Yes, the torc will hit him with the AMF, and yes he won't be able to cast until he removes it, but he'll be in a box made of the strongest material he can acquire, and you'll have to break through it in order to affect him, by which time he'll have removed the torc and escaped or buffed up or whatever. And if the torc is constantly on (as opposed to being on only when equipped), then the hat (or his contingencies) will activate before he's actually in the AoE.


Queue Cue the shroedingers mage builds:Given the power of divination and how easy it is to alter one's spell loadout or cast whatever spell you want spontaneously, the mage will almost assuredly have what spells he needs. That, and most scenarios can be bypassed, neutered, or destroyed by a large number of different spells and contingencies. So referring to a very likely scenario as "Schrödinger's mage builds" kind of demeans the whole situation.

[daremetoidareyo]

See what I mean. Talking about killing mages is like the biggest personal challenge that anyone could do. Y'all forgot about personal demiplane and constant dire turtle form in your builds specifically designed and memorized for this exact discussion.

Nah ah, all my mages live in a n obdurium box! They don't actually have any motives other than don't let nonmagical strangers come at me.

[LordOfCain]

See what I mean. Talking about killing mages is like the biggest personal challenge that anyone could do. Y'all forgot about personal demiplane and constant dire turtle form in your builds specifically designed and memorized for this exact discussion.

Nah ah, all my mages live in a n obdurium box! They don't actually have any motives other than don't let nonmagical strangers come at me.

Doncha mean riverine? :P

[MaxiDuRaritry]

See what I mean. Talking about killing mages is like the biggest personal challenge that anyone could do. Y'all forgot about personal demiplane and constant dire turtle form in your builds specifically designed and memorized for this exact discussion.

Nah ah, all my mages live in a n obdurium box! They don't actually have any motives other than don't let nonmagical strangers come at me.Tinfoil hats are pretty standard issue, honestly. Any wizard, artificer, or archivist can easily create one, and it's not hard to acquire one for any other T1 character (because, y'know, planar binding spells are a thing, if nothing else).

Is it really "Schrödinger's wizard" if literally every wizard can do it for virtually nothing?

[Eldariel]

See what I mean. Talking about killing mages is like the biggest personal challenge that anyone could do. Y'all forgot about personal demiplane and constant dire turtle form in your builds specifically designed and memorized for this exact discussion.

Nah ah, all my mages live in a n obdurium box! They don't actually have any motives other than don't let nonmagical strangers come at me.

Na, basically every commonly mentioned protection is to protect casters from other casters: they just incidentally protect them from noncasters while at it. Anything noncasters can do, casters can do better, making them more dangerous and thus something you need to prepare for if you plan to live. This whole "Sleight of Hand Antimagic Torc" is again one of those silly "I walk next to a mage I want to kill without going into any detail on how I actually get past the hard part and then take a standard action to activate an antimagic field with the caster doing nothing and then do something unnecessarily complex instead of just killing them." These plans invariably fail every practicality test even on a theoretical level without even mentioning the overcoming the issues not considered.

[ryu]

See what I mean. Talking about killing mages is like the biggest personal challenge that anyone could do. Y'all forgot about personal demiplane and constant dire turtle form in your builds specifically designed and memorized for this exact discussion.

Nah ah, all my mages live in a n obdurium box! They don't actually have any motives other than don't let nonmagical strangers come at me.

Oh I didn't forget. I just believe it most important to talk about the minimal amount of effort to solve a problem with common resources to show just how poor the attack plan actually is. If your attack plan can be answered with one commonly taken spell, or otherwise without cost, it's not an attack plan worth using. To call being able to fly Schroedinger territory is laughable. Everyone who isn't in an AMF can fly. Everyone. Even fighters are expected to be able to.

[daremetoidareyo]

Daremetoos Maxim

"In forum discussions, no hypothetical magic user shall ever be defeated by a hypothetical mundane."

[Name1]

Daremetoos Maxim

"In forum discussions, no hypothetical magic user shall ever be defeated by a hypothetical mundane, provided that both are at the same character level and of an equal or similar level of optimization."

Attempted a fix there.

[flappeercraft]

With enough Items, be them magical or not, can a mundane character be a consistant match for spell casting characters?
Which items would best boost a non magical character to taking on poweful spell casters?
What tactics should they use?
When does this fail?

Well it is possible to make good custom magic items following the rules in DMG to protect yourself from spellcasters. For example you can make a magic item that gives a continuous effect of mystic shield which protects you from all 6th level spells and lower making them simply not affect you, if you do this though I reccomend you use a lot of cost reducers like making it alignment and class specific, tied to a skill and made of fey cherry wood. But there are still some good magic items to fight spellcasters that are not custom like a Ring of Death ward (Dragon magazine #342) and Ring of Spell turning (DMG).

[daremetoidareyo]

Attempted a fix there.

The fix Is unnecessary. Whenever a mage build is deshroedingered, the conversation deflects into RAW disagreement, despite the broad latitude granted to spell interpretation and access.

Every forum mage is either asexual or prone to zoophilic (dire turtle loving!) tendencies, seeing as that is how they spend all of their time.

No hypothetical mage does enough activity to warrant their level, seeing as how they don't ever actually do anything to generate the experience necessary for that high level spell access. And if they do somehow work out a means to get zero risk XP, they still need tons of gp for material components, which requires interaction with other sentient beings. Which exposes them to situations where their defenses are taxed. But every hypothetical mage has prebuffed perfectly for your specific mode of attack.

No hypothetical mage ever bans conjuration or transmutation.

And thus, any practical discussion for how to take down a magic user is always diverted to optimization fringes. Always. Despite all of us at one time slaying a magic user at some time when we played.

[J-H]

At Epic levels, the Void Incarnate class lets you walk up to a mage and stab him in the face because he forgets you're there.
Of course, you're probably stabbing his ice assassin aleax cloned astral projection.

[Zanos]

The fix Is unnecessary. Whenever a mage build is deshroedingered, the conversation deflects into RAW disagreement, despite the broad latitude granted to spell interpretation and access.
Here's a non "Schrodinger" approach for you, then. It doesn't work because Antimagic Torc is a slotted item, and stops working as soon as you take it off.

Bam, didn't even need to be a wizard.

[Eldariel]

The fix Is unnecessary. Whenever a mage build is deshroedingered, the conversation deflects into RAW disagreement, despite the broad latitude granted to spell interpretation and access.

Every forum mage is either asexual or prone to zoophilic (dire turtle loving!) tendencies, seeing as that is how they spend all of their time.

No hypothetical mage does enough activity to warrant their level, seeing as how they don't ever actually do anything to generate the experience necessary for that high level spell access. And if they do somehow work out a means to get zero risk XP, they still need tons of gp for material components, which requires interaction with other sentient beings. Which exposes them to situations where their defenses are taxed. But every hypothetical mage has prebuffed perfectly for your specific mode of attack.

No hypothetical mage ever bans conjuration or transmutation.

And thus, any practical discussion for how to take down a magic user is always diverted to optimization fringes. Always. Despite all of us at one time slaying a magic user at some time when we played.

And this is a good example of why these threads have little valuable information. People will inevitably get frustrated by how broken the system is inherently which tends to lead to bogus rationales for why Casters totally aren't difficult to kill followed by plan on the level of "Walk up to them and hit them with a sword!" At best you get "in a table with these unspoken houserules and with this utterly idiotic spellcaster whose dumb luck got him to level 13, we slew Fathrand the Vile and acquired his stupidly hidden phylactery - from this it follows that spellcasters are actually pretty easy to kill"

[Quertus]

If you pump out your sleight of hand, you can get close and slip an antimagic torc onto the mage. Then stab them in the face to death.

Queue the shroedingers mage builds:


Tinfoil hats are pretty standard issue, honestly. Any wizard, artificer, or archivist can easily create one, and it's not hard to acquire one for any other T1 character (because, y'know, planar binding spells are a thing, if nothing else).

Is it really "Schroedinger's wizard" if literally every wizard can do it for virtually nothing?


The fix Is unnecessary. Whenever a mage build is deshroedingered, the conversation deflects into RAW disagreement, despite the broad latitude granted to spell interpretation and access.

Every forum mage is either asexual or prone to zoophilic (dire turtle loving!) tendencies, seeing as that is how they spend all of their time.

No hypothetical mage does enough activity to warrant their level, seeing as how they don't ever actually do anything to generate the experience necessary for that high level spell access. And if they do somehow work out a means to get zero risk XP, they still need tons of gp for material components, which requires interaction with other sentient beings. Which exposes them to situations where their defenses are taxed. But every hypothetical mage has prebuffed perfectly for your specific mode of attack.

No hypothetical mage ever bans conjuration or transmutation.

And thus, any practical discussion for how to take down a magic user is always diverted to optimization fringes. Always. Despite all of us at one time slaying a magic user at some time when we played.

**** Schroedinger. How would this tactic fare against the same low-op wizards I tested against the Chinese army?

Unless the torc was carried in a lead lined box, Quertus would probably notice it as soon as he had LoS, and definitely when it was within a certain range, LoS or no. If you slipped it into him... that would do nothing, because slotted item, right? If you tried something that would actually work, you'd discover that Quertus was no longer there. And if he were there, Quertus has at least a half a dozen ways to still be tier 1 in anti-magic.

Armus is generally surrounded by people more powerful than himself. Assuming you tried this trick when he was alone, wasn't airborne, wasn't hidden, wasn't invisible, and wasn't in the middle of an AoE that would probably kill you before you got there... then Armus would probably succeed the sense motive to realize you were up to something. Assuming Armus didn't have a conflicting item in that slot, and assuming you found some way to activate an item on another person (?), and assuming Armus' unique items don't count as artifacts... then you'd still have to survive losing your kidneys, and about 50 points of con damage... in anti magic. If you did, then you'd probably be able to kill Armus.

Although a similar trick could probably rock his world, as written, Seras would thank you for the free loot and XP.

Naradin might beat the attacker, but, more likely, would be inconvenienced by a 1d10 day delay.

-----

The way to beat wizards isn't to beat them at their own game, it's to play a different game.


Probably the easiest example of a mundane defeating a wizard is the diplomancer.



Here's a non "Schrodinger" approach for you, then. It doesn't work because Antimagic Torc is a slotted item, and stops working as soon as you take it off.

Bam, didn't even need to be a wizard.

Thanks for the heads up on that one.

[LordOfCain]

1. A well played spellcaster will win 9999/10000 times against a mundane without EXTREME opimization.
2. Magebane sword?
There aren't really any good anti-mage items.A couple days after I post this I'm working on a Mage killer character... Oh how the tides turn...

[elonin]

One of the things i find troubling on threads like this is an attitude of if a caster can do a thing that is optimized they will always do that thing. I'm not arguing against casters being prudent actions to counter generally anticipated threats, but against the notion that tier one casters are omniscient.

noncaster vs caster? Casters are fairly vulnerable when preparing spells or during/after massive fights or when other wise distracted.

[darkdragoon]

Casting Alarm, Rope Trick etc. is easy. Turning into a dragon eventually becomes easy.


What's not easy is explaining how classes with mostly poor skill lists and points/level, low Charisma etc. can convince an Artificer who appeared out of nowhere to make him a +5 Magebane Sudden Stunning etc. sword, a cloak with every save bonus, an endless supply of Ring of Counterspells, Antimagic Torcs, ...

[Endarire]

Consider the amount of optimization needed to make the ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter) work. With that level of effort, one could have made at least one (nigh-)unkillable caster. Or made a video game.

[daremetoidareyo]

Consider the amount of optimization needed to make the ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter) work. With that level of effort, one could have made at least one (nigh-)unkillable caster. Or made a video game.

That thread exhibits a lot of daremetoo's maxim.

[Zanos]

That thread exhibits a lot of daremetoo's maxim.
The ExFighters class levels are perhaps the least significant part of it. The ExFighter could be commoner 20, and it wouldn't affect the build all that much. It essentially highlights that purchasing the service of NPCs who can actually do magic is powerful. In fact, the creator of the ExFighter even says as much.

If you're complaint is that someone posts a TO build they claim can't be touched by casters, and then people try various caster builds to touch it, you're complaint about "Schrodinger casters" is entirely illegitimate. If you present a wall and challenge people to topple it, expect them to try to leverage resources to do so.

[Malroth]

Given sufficiently large WBL and an unlimited Magic Mart, A smart Mundane can easily obtain any power any given caster posesses and defeat any poorly prepared caster. However Given the same level of intelligence in the caster and the same access to unlimited resources The caster can just as easily become unkillable by any rules legal method except direct divine intervention.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're your complaint is that someone posts a TO build they claim can't be touched by casters, and then people try various caster builds to touch it, you're your complaint about "Schrodinger casters" is entirely illegitimate. If you present a wall and challenge people to topple it, expect them to try to leverage resources to do so.While I agree with the content of the post entirely, those were seriously bugging me. "You're" means "you are" or "you were," no exceptions. Sorry, but it's something you should probably pay more attention to.

[Name1]

Given sufficiently large WBL and an unlimited Magic Mart, A smart Mundane can easily obtain any power any given caster posesses and defeat any poorly prepared caster. However Given the same level of intelligence in the caster and the same access to unlimited resources The caster can just as easily become unkillable by any rules legal method except direct divine intervention.

Direct Divine Intervention can be overcome by becoming a deity yourself, probably by fusing with one of the Nordic Monsters listed in Deites and Demigods OR a Dragon Ascendant.

[Zanos]

While I agree with the content of the post entirely, those were seriously bugging me. "You're" means "you are" or "you were," no exceptions. Sorry, but it's something you should probably pay more attention to.
Your absolutely right. You're advice was tremendously helpful.

In the future, I'll be sure to sing my praises, and bless you're family.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Your absolutely right. You're advice was tremendously helpful.

In the future, I'll be sure to sing my praises, and bless you're family.All of my hate.

[icefractal]

Beat a hypothetical spellcaster with the same optimization level and wealth as you, or beat a specific caster? Because you can easily do the latter - I think the entries in that "Monk Defeating all the Elder Evils" thread would defeat at least 90% of casters that people are currently playing.

That leaves two cases to consider:
1) Defeat a caster with the same level and optimization as you, but who has less or no items - possible, as long as infinite wealth tricks are out (and they'd have to be, for the concept of "more items" to have meaning).

This is trivially possible with over-level amounts of wealth (Staff of Wishes = better spells than any 16th- caster), but is it possible with WBL? I think it probably is (as long as the caster has significantly less items), but I can't say for sure and I'm not making a build right now to compare.

2) The more interesting case - is there any amount of wealth where a non-caster build ends up the most powerful with equal optimization?

I don't know that there is, but I think it's possible. Spellcasting can be replicated by magic items, so if there's something that can't be, and that thing is a decisive edge, then with sufficiently high wealth (really high), a non-caster may be the better combination.