How much can you optimize a Monk?

[jaappleton]

The Monk is somewhat of a strange class to me because while overall a very solid class, I can't seem to find a way to optimize it.

Sure, the Mobile feat is great. Bracers of Defense are awesome for them as far as magic items go.

But there's no... No Sharpshooter or GWM equivalent feat for them. I've heard of people using Sentinel to good effect.

They typically use their fists or staffs, and most magic staffs are for magic users. The Staff of Striking is the only one I can think of that'd be useful for a Monk.

The Monk definitely seems to be 'death by a thousand papercuts' type of class, which is fine. I just can't seem to find a way to get it to... Excel more at it. Magic items, feats, I can't find anything.

Any ideas?
(No multiclassing on this, by the way. Straight up Monk)

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Don't think of the monk as a DPS MAX DAMAGE kind of PC. The monk is an ultimate survivor and battlefield controller. All his resistances and abilities go to making him a tough guy to take down with spells or at range. The monk's primary contribution to a party is his stunning strike which can totally change the complexion of a combat encounter.

Play the monk strategically and intelligently and everything you get from a single-class monk is all you ever need to do what he does.

The monk is designed not like a tank to go up against another big tank, but as a guy that moves quickly to the backlines of an enemy's formation, taking out the spellcasters or other potentially devastating enemies with their stunning strikes.

[Citan]

The Monk is somewhat of a strange class to me because while overall a very solid class, I can't seem to find a way to optimize it.

Sure, the Mobile feat is great. Bracers of Defense are awesome for them as far as magic items go.

But there's no... No Sharpshooter or GWM equivalent feat for them. I've heard of people using Sentinel to good effect.

They typically use their fists or staffs, and most magic staffs are for magic users. The Staff of Striking is the only one I can think of that'd be useful for a Monk.

The Monk definitely seems to be 'death by a thousand papercuts' type of class, which is fine. I just can't seem to find a way to get it to... Excel more at it. Magic items, feats, I can't find anything.

Any ideas?
(No multiclassing on this, by the way. Straight up Monk)
Hi!
I'd say you sum it up good.
The best way to optimize a Monk is basically max Dex and Wis and/or take a choice of feats among Mobile, Sentinel, Alert, Mage Slayer or Lucky for the ones that come naturally to my mind.

(Note that I'm not familiar at all with magic items in general though so there are probably some items that would benefit a Monk that I don't know of).

[jaappleton]

For the Archetypes which don't grant you much to do with a Reaction, how is Defensive Duelist on a Monk? Seems like a very solid defensive option.

The DM is letting me start with two magic items 'appropriate for level 9', and I was picking Bracers of Defense as one. I was curious about a magic weapon for a Monk, but for Defensive Duelist, it'd have to be a Finesse weapon, and all I can think of is a Dagger or a Short Sword. Though most magic items are Longswords, it seems. It may just go with 'generic handwraps +1' and see if I can use Defensive Duelist with my fists. I know that RAW it doesn't work, but it can't hurt to ask.

[Specter]

You can optimize an Elf or Gnome Monk as the ultimate mage slayer. Pick up the feat, boost your WIS, resist their spells and stun away.

The monk is thr best class to deal with glass cannons. They have great mobility, many defensive options and can lock targets where they want them to be.

As for damage, you have to find a way to capitalize on their many attacks; Magic Initiate Warlock for Hex along with someone casting Crusader's Mantle would add 6avg damage to each attack. With four attacks, that's 24.

[Sianthus]

For the Archetypes which don't grant you much to do with a Reaction, how is Defensive Duelist on a Monk? Seems like a very solid defensive option.

The DM is letting me start with two magic items 'appropriate for level 9', and I was picking Bracers of Defense as one. I was curious about a magic weapon for a Monk, but for Defensive Duelist, it'd have to be a Finesse weapon, and all I can think of is a Dagger or a Short Sword. Though most magic items are Longswords, it seems. It may just go with 'generic handwraps +1' and see if I can use Defensive Duelist with my fists. I know that RAW it doesn't work, but it can't hurt to ask.

Since monk weapons (which include the finesse using shortswords iirc) scale along with their unarmed damage progression, there's almost no downside to using one. Only difference as far as i can remember is your unarmed attacks counting as magical for ignoring resistances, but if you're getting a magical monk weapon, that difference disappears. You can use defensive duelist with them in that case.

What's in the DMG list for magical shortswords and daggers anw? You could always apply other weapons' magical traits to a shortsword, dagger, or any other monk weapon if your DM is willing. Most DMs are, since that's hardly game breaking (at all) :D

[jaappleton]

Since monk weapons (which include the finesse using shortswords iirc) scale along with their unarmed damage progression, there's almost no downside to using one. Only difference as far as i can remember is your unarmed attacks counting as magical for ignoring resistances, but if you're getting a magical monk weapon, that difference disappears. You can use defensive duelist with them in that case.

What's in the DMG list for magical shortswords and daggers anw? You could always apply other weapons' magical traits to a shortsword, dagger, or any other monk weapon if your DM is willing. Most DMs are, since that's hardly game breaking (at all) :D

As far as a downside...

If I go with "generic magic handwraps +1", that's +1 to all my attacks. Flurry of Blows is strictly unarmed, so I wouldn't get it if I went "short sword +1".

But you did give me a good idea of trying to apply another items magical effects to "generic handwraps +1".

[Foxhound438]

The Monk is somewhat of a strange class to me because while overall a very solid class, I can't seem to find a way to optimize it.

Sure, the Mobile feat is great. Bracers of Defense are awesome for them as far as magic items go.

But there's no... No Sharpshooter or GWM equivalent feat for them. I've heard of people using Sentinel to good effect.

They typically use their fists or staffs, and most magic staffs are for magic users. The Staff of Striking is the only one I can think of that'd be useful for a Monk.

The Monk definitely seems to be 'death by a thousand papercuts' type of class, which is fine. I just can't seem to find a way to get it to... Excel more at it. Magic items, feats, I can't find anything.

Any ideas?
(No multiclassing on this, by the way. Straight up Monk)

The thing I like to do is find a way to get hex/hunter's mark/divine favor for them. Usually this means multiclassing, but since you can't i'll recommend magic initiate.

Barring that, an Ioun Stone or Ring of spell storing would be great if someone else in your party is willing to stock it with hex/hunter's mark/divine favor/whatever else you like.

Also staff of thunder and lightning is cool, and can be used by a monk.

[Ghost Nappa]

Race: Wood Elf / Aarakocra.

Wood Elf gets bonuses to Stealth and movement speed, Aarakocra can fly. +2 DEX and +1 WIS on each.

Stats: Dump STR, INT, and CHA. DEX is your primary, WIS/CON your secondaries. DEX is your AC, probably at least 1 or 2 of your skills, your Hit/DMG, and one of your saving throws. Get it high quick.

Weapons: You want a shortsword. It's the most powerful weapon at lower levels until your Martial Arts die eclipses its damage dice. Aarakocra care about this less because their unarmed strikes have two damage types.

Feats: Mobile, Mage Slayer, Lucky, and Alert are all solid options. Monk is perhaps the one class that does NOT want Resilient, because it will eventually get Save Proficiency in all saving throws anyway.

Sub-classes: atm, any choice is good except Four Elements. The only Monk I tried was a Shadow Monk, and she just ran circles around stealth games ALL Day. I was running ~135' at times, and my DM couldn't figure out how to handle that speed.

MCing: Rogue and Cleric are probably your best bets because of the DEX and WIS synergies.

Magic Items: Beg your DM for the Bracers and a Ring of Protection. Wood Elves want something that lets them fly with their movement speed.

[Greeniron]

I believe there is a staff of defense, +1 to AC and some charges to spend on some defensive spells, it could be very nice but I do not have a DMG near me right now.

[djreynolds]

The Monk is somewhat of a strange class to me because while overall a very solid class, I can't seem to find a way to optimize it.

Sure, the Mobile feat is great. Bracers of Defense are awesome for them as far as magic items go.

But there's no... No Sharpshooter or GWM equivalent feat for them. I've heard of people using Sentinel to good effect.

They typically use their fists or staffs, and most magic staffs are for magic users. The Staff of Striking is the only one I can think of that'd be useful for a Monk.

The Monk definitely seems to be 'death by a thousand papercuts' type of class, which is fine. I just can't seem to find a way to get it to... Excel more at it. Magic items, feats, I can't find anything.

Any ideas?
(No multiclassing on this, by the way. Straight up Monk)

Open hand is awesome. You can prone someone on a failed dex saving throw, not many monsters have good dex saves.

Mobile helps to save KI points

Try to think of your party as a pod of killer whales, your job is to squeeze the enemy into tighter and tighter formations for the others to feast on and to get enemy stragglers

I love mage slayer, but its tough to max dex and wis and have room for mobile, or mage slayer, or whatever.

Use patient defense when stuck in melee.

[Cyrill Faust]

Interesting thing on the subject of monks a hasted level 18 wood elf monk with the mobile feat can move 600ft per turn. 35 base + 30 lvl18 unarmored movement + 10 from Mobile = 75 x2 from haste =150 + 150 action dash + 150 bonus action + 150 haste action dash = 600 600 over 6secs is 100fps 100fps=68.1818 mph =109.728 kph.

and before anyone objects yes double dash (well triple dash is legal)
can't post links too new just google "sage advice dash twice" and it's the first hit

[Sabeta]

You know, it's funny that it's harder for a Monk to run 70MPH than it is for a Wizard to just Teleport.

[Foxhound438]

Weapons: You want a shortsword. It's the most powerful weapon at lower levels until your Martial Arts die eclipses its damage dice. Aarakocra care about this less because their unarmed strikes have two damage types.


I don't think there's a reason to want shortsword over spear though... Two handing the spear gives you a d8 compared to the ss's d6, and requiring 2 hands for a bigger die is largely irrelevant since you can switch to 1 hand for the same damage die as short sword.

[Sianthus]

I don't think there's a reason to want shortsword over spear though... Two handing the spear gives you a d8 compared to the ss's d6, and requiring 2 hands for a bigger die is largely irrelevant since you can switch to 1 hand for the same damage die as short sword.

It's something people often forget but the Monk weapon's damage die increases along with the unarmed damage iirc. There is almost no point in debating which weapon they're using so long as it's a Monk weapon as the damage is the same. One of the few differences is only if the weapons is Finesse for defensive duelist, or such other weapon properties like Thrown.

[RSP]

You want the short sword over the spear because it's finesse and can be used with Defensive Duelist, which is a pretty fantastic feat coupled with using Ki to Dodge, as disadvantaged attacks rarely roll well enough to beat AC+prof bonus. Assuming you have decent AC, of course.

[djreynolds]

So there are 2 feats now that people are saying are a must, mobile and defensive duelist.

And now that I think of it, defensive duelist is a good idea and can be snagged early or late in class progression.

And I actually used it for my strength based tank fighter, I fought with a rapier and shield, a 13 in dex is cheap.

I wish monks did not need wisdom for AC, but alas the class is still very MAD. I might take defensive duelist over mobile, both are so good.

[Innocent_bystan]

I believe there is a staff of defense, +1 to AC and some charges to spend on some defensive spells, it could be very nice but I do not have a DMG near me right now.
It's in The lost mines of Pandelver.
+1 AC and 7 charges to cast Mage Armor (1 charge) and Shield (2 charges) with.
Ridiculously overpowered at the level you get it in the adventure as it, in essence, gives the wizard 4 extra level 1 spell slots.

[Waazraath]

So there are 2 feats now that people are saying are a must, mobile and defensive duelist.

And now that I think of it, defensive duelist is a good idea and can be snagged early or late in class progression.

And I actually used it for my strength based tank fighter, I fought with a rapier and shield, a 13 in dex is cheap.

I wish monks did not need wisdom for AC, but alas the class is still very MAD. I might take defensive duelist over mobile, both are so good.

Depending on subclass and the level you expect to reach: the shadow monk has a very good use of their reaction, at level 17, opportunist (basicly an extra attack). I'm not too sure about defensive duelist being a must. At low levels, it's better to use a spear or quarterstaff for the 1d8 damage, compared with the 1d6; at later level, it limits what magic items you can use, which is a shame cause there are quite a few good staffs for a monk. If you face opponents who often make 1 big attack, defensive duelist is very nice, but if you opposse groups of mooks, or enemies with multiattack, getting a +2 to +6 isn't that interessting, if it only works on 1 of the e.g. 5 attacks made against you.

[Sir cryosin]

See of you can't get the sun blade magic sword it's a long sword but it counts as a finesse weapon.

[bid]

See of you can't get the sun blade magic sword it's a long sword but it counts as a finesse weapon.
Aaaand, it's not a monk weapon.

[JumboWheat01]

One of the simplest optimizations for a Monk is to not play as a Four Elements one, as much as I've come to love the archetype. It just doesn't flow well with all the rest of the monkiness. Which is most certainly a technical term.

[Sir cryosin]

Aaaand, it's not a monk weapon.

So you don't loose anything for using a weapon that's not a monk weapon.and sents it's a fissness weapon you can use Dex which is your main stat anyway.

[Daehron]

So you don't loose anything for using a weapon that's not a monk weapon.and sents it's a fissness weapon you can use Dex which is your main stat anyway.

You cannot use your bonus action to make a martial arts unarmed strike, thus cannot use flurry of blows.

Therefore, you loose a foundational class feature.

Up to the player to decide on that Cost / Benefit analysis.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

It's something people often forget but the Monk weapon's damage die increases along with the unarmed damage iirc. There is almost no point in debating which weapon they're using so long as it's a Monk weapon as the damage is the same. One of the few differences is only if the weapons is Finesse for defensive duelist, or such other weapon properties like Thrown.

Not quite - a Monk can roll their Martial Arts die instead of the normal damage of the weapon, but they don't have to. Thus, using weapons with higher damage die is a good idea at lower levels.

[Rysto]

You could try Magic Initiate (Druid) to pick up Shillelagh. That would let you use WIS as your primary stat. I'm AFB but that should help you land things like stunning strike whose saves are based on your WIS mod IIRC. You still can't dump Dex of course because it determines your AC but it would allow you to keep pumping Wis and increase AC, save DC and your weapon attack.

(Actually this is one case where I think a Druid dip could work well. No good for you but if anybody else is reading the thread looking for ideas it would be an option to keep in mind)

[Grod_The_Giant]

A two-handed spear/staff attack is only +1 average damage more than a shortsword; the boost from Defensive Duelist is, in my mind, much more valuable.


I wish monks did not need wisdom for AC, but alas the class is still very MAD. I might take defensive duelist over mobile, both are so good.
You can get by with less than you'd think. 14 Wisdom and you're essentially wearing light armor; 16 and you're in Mage Armor or magic item terrain.


You cannot use your bonus action to make a martial arts unarmed strike, thus cannot use flurry of blows.

Therefore, you loose a foundational class feature.

Up to the player to decide on that Cost / Benefit analysis.
Not true. You lose Martial Arts, but Flurry of Blows is a separate ability that doesn't refer to Martial Arts, or its weapon/armor restrictions, in any way. You can wear full plate and swing a greataxe and Flurry, if you so desire. There was a thread a bit back on the subject of armored monks; they come out a lot better than you'd think. Fighter 1-2/Open Hand Monk 18-19 makes a fierce warrior-- swing a greatsword around with GWM, cut arrows out of the air, dodge around the battlefield like a champ, kick people to the ground and stomp on their faces.

[Citan]

A two-handed spear/staff attack is only +1 average damage more than a shortsword; the boost from Defensive Duelist is, in my mind, much more valuable.


You can get by with less than you'd think. 14 Wisdom and you're essentially wearing light armor; 16 and you're in Mage Armor or magic item terrain.


Not true. You lose Martial Arts, but Flurry of Blows is a separate ability that doesn't refer to Martial Arts, or its weapon/armor restrictions, in any way. You can wear full plate and swing a greataxe and Flurry, if you so desire. There was a thread a bit back on the subject of armored monks; they come out a lot better than you'd think. Fighter 1-2/Open Hand Monk 18-19 makes a fierce warrior-- swing a greatsword around with GWM, cut arrows out of the air, dodge around the battlefield like a champ, kick people to the ground and stomp on their faces.
Yeah, except that you don't benefit from the extra Unarmed Damage, so unless you also get the Tavern Brawler feat, you deal 2 damage with your Flurry of Blows, considering both hit. \o/

Not saying this is a bad build, but the criticism stays relevant: as is, Flurry of Blows becomes useless damage-wise.
However, for a specific build that would stack buffs such as Hex/Hunter's Mark, it can make a decent option.
It also offers one additional chance to apply Stunning Strike compared to the usual bonus action attacks (TWF, GWM, Polearm Master) so for some characters it can be of some use.

IMO though, Flurry of Blows is fortunately the less interesting feature for such a multiclass: in most occasions the Ki would best be spent solely on Stunning Strike when you are not in danger, or Patient Defense / Step of the Wind when necessary. ;)
And these features can indeed wreak havoc when used wisely by a Greatsword wielder. XD

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, except that you don't benefit from the extra Unarmed Damage, so unless you also get the Tavern Brawler feat, you deal 2 damage with your Flurry of Blows, considering both hit. \o/
Plus your Str on each hit. But yeah, you'd probably want Tavern Brawler too, though with Open Hand debuffs the ki cost certainly becomes worth it.

[Citan]

Plus your Str on each hit. But yeah, you'd probably want Tavern Brawler too, though with Open Hand debuffs the ki cost certainly becomes worth it.
OMG, how could I forget that?
*runs into a corner to hide from his own shame*:smalleek:

[Grod_The_Giant]

omg, how could i forget that?
*runs into a corner to hide from his own shame*:smalleek:
you monster

[odigity]

See of you can't get the sun blade magic sword it's a long sword but it counts as a finesse weapon.


Aaaand, it's not a monk weapon.

Of course not. It's obviously a Jedi weapon.

[SharkForce]

A two-handed spear/staff attack is only +1 average damage more than a shortsword; the boost from Defensive Duelist is, in my mind, much more valuable.


You can get by with less than you'd think. 14 Wisdom and you're essentially wearing light armor; 16 and you're in Mage Armor or magic item terrain.

- you lose two damage (and one attack bonus) over the spear. 1 from spending an ASI on defensive duelist, 1 from the spear's average damage. defensive duelist isn't awful, but i certainly wouldn't call it a requirement for an effective monk, and particularly because of how MAD monks are i probably wouldn't even consider it unless i get lucky rolling for attributes (or if it is just an absolute necessity for a concept, regardless of effectiveness).

- a monk with low wisdom is not nearly as good as a monk with high wisdom, and it has very little to do with AC. your stun DC (and sometimes other DCs) rely on wisdom, and are a key part of an effective monk. that might work for the not-really-a-monk build i edited out, but it really doesn't work if someone is actually trying to optimize a monk rather than have a build with a couple of monk levels in it. monks already need high wisdom to be good at... uhhh... monking. frankly, i think WotC almost did some people a favour by slapping them in the face with it so that they'd notice to not dump their wisdom.

[RSP]

Agreed, Defensive Duelist is a great feat but Monks need to max both Dex and Wis before worrying about taking any feat.

[Foxhound438]

A two-handed spear/staff attack is only +1 average damage more than a shortsword; the boost from Defensive Duelist is, in my mind, much more valuable.


When it costs an ASI it becomes less attractive. Fine for a Vuman 1 feat, but when everyone and their dog swears by mobile (I've tried it, it's a neat trick at best and flavorful at worst), and everyone's mom and cat swearing by MI warlock (I being one of these), I'd say DD is a 19th level feature even for Vumans. so for the first 10 levels, a spear out-classes shortsword.

[djreynolds]

The unfortunate aspect of the monk, is unlike barbarian who can use a shield and medium armor if he wants to and still rage, a monk is forced to make out dex and wis just for AC purpose, and with standard array... you will need 4 ASI to max out dex and wis... meaning you only really get one feat.

Now one could just go to level 14 for save purposes, but most players will want the 17th level class feature. So alas, you are stuck with one feat for anything "different"

So for a 20th level monk, you basically have one feat to choose from.

Can you not max out wis and dex, sure. You could leave both at 16 at creation which is very reasonable, +3 instead of +5. But even then a monk gets nothing for maxing out strength, no bare handed or side-kicking version of GWM

My advice, is play a monk if you are rolling stats and roll awesome or just be comfortable leaving at least your wisdom at 16 or 18 and find some magic.

[Citan]

The unfortunate aspect of the monk, is unlike barbarian who can use a shield and medium armor if he wants to and still rage, a monk is forced to make out dex and wis just for AC purpose, and with standard array... you will need 4 ASI to max out dex and wis... meaning you only really get one feat.

Can you not max out wis and dex, sure. You could leave both at 16 at creation which is very reasonable, +3 instead of +5. But even then a monk gets nothing for maxing out strength, no bare handed or side-kicking version of GWM

My advice, is play a monk if you are rolling stats and roll awesome or just be comfortable leaving at least your wisdom at 16 or 18 and find some magic.
I'd say maxing DEX an WIS "just for AC purpose" as a Monk is probably the worst reason possible.
WIS is the one thing important to max for all Monks, except a Shadow Monk who would use all ki on "spells", because it affects Stunning Strike which is the feature everyone expects the Monk to use.
Whereas DEX can be kept fine at 16 as long as you have at least one reliable source to enhance your to-hit (advantage / Bless etc).

So there is a fair margin of flexibility between the "never lesser" 16 DEX / 16 WIS and the max 20 DEX / 20 WIS.
Having 16 DEX and 20 WIS put your AC at 18, as good as the best heavy armor, while giving you space for three feats (or two feats and multiclassing). AC higher than 18 would be icing on the cake, but Monk has enough defensive abilities to cope with "only that". ^^

Although my favorite "balance" personally, for a pure monk at least, would be 18 DEX, 20 WIS, Mobile and either Alert, Mage Slayer or Ritual Caster (Cleric) depending on party. ;)

But point is: the true reason to max DEX and WIS imo is that you want to stun as reliably as possible, and having the highest possible "base" DC and to-hit is the most efficient way to do so.

[Mandragola]

I know we're not supposed to MC, but the new ranger seems like an awesome option to MC with a monk. Monks get lots of attacks and rangers get extra damage on each one against their favoured enemy.

Otherwise, I honestly tend to agree with the OP's sentiment that optimising a monk is tricky. I mean, everyone realises that you need dex, wis and con, along with a few skills that work with them (stealth and perception). But beyond that, there isn't a huge amount to do.

And you probably do want to max out those stats rather than get feats. Defensive duelist adds +2 to your AC (early on) against one attack as a reaction. Raising dex or wis improves your AC by 1 against all attacks, all the time, and does loads of other good stuff (damage, your saves and so on and so on).

And the trouble with this is that basically all monks are pretty similar. All the archetypes want the same stats too.

[Citan]

I know we're not supposed to MC, but the new ranger seems like an awesome option to MC with a monk. Monks get lots of attacks and rangers get extra damage on each one against their favoured enemy.

Otherwise, I honestly tend to agree with the OP's sentiment that optimising a monk is tricky. I mean, everyone realises that you need dex, wis and con, along with a few skills that work with them (stealth and perception). But beyond that, there isn't a huge amount to do.

And you probably do want to max out those stats rather than get feats. Defensive duelist adds +2 to your AC (early on) against one attack as a reaction. Raising dex or wis improves your AC by 1 against all attacks, all the time, and does loads of other good stuff (damage, your saves and so on and so on).

And the trouble with this is that basically all monks are pretty similar. All the archetypes want the same stats too.
I'd be more nuanced than that.
All Monks can favor more or less one stat over the other, except maybe Monk because its class "Stunning Strike" depends on Wis while his archetype features rely on both WIS (Quivering Palm) and Dex (hitting with Flurry of Blows to trigger the extra effect).

Shadow could "dump" WIS and focus on using his Ki points on spell mimics and defensive abilities.

Long Death obviously tends to favor WIS because of its archetype features.

4 Elements and Sun Soul could either try to balance or choose to focus on either DEX or WIS, since they will always still have something useful to do with their Ki points.

Also, when multiclassing is an option, an easy way to "optimize" while keeping space for feats would be multiclassing in Cleric to get a few casts of Bless (or Bane if you have somebody in the group already casting Bless, to help with DC abilities). As well as Shillelagh (Nature domain) for archetypes that want to use their WIS-dependent features as reliably as possible while staying good in melee. :=)

[SharkForce]

why on earth would a shadow monk ignore stunning blow and focus exclusively on casting spells?

i mean, don't get me wrong, shadow monks do get some great spells. i very much expect a shadow monk to spend *some* ki on using them. but a shadow monk likes stunning things just as much as any other monk, and should not ignore one of the most powerful abilities the class gets.

[RulesJD]

A few general pointers for playing Monks:

1. It depends a lot on what you want to do. My Monks have all been Shadow monks (level 15 and level 8) that focus on being scout/stealth/damage.

2. It also depends a LOT on what level you are likely to play to. The main question to ask is whether you will get to level 14?

If, like 99% of most campaigns, you won't ever get to level 14, then the optimized setup is to take Resiliency (Wisdom) with Vhuman at level 1. This lets you have 16/16/16 in Dex, Con, and Wisdom respectively.

Alternatively, Mobile is a great choice for feat because of the free Disengage.

3. The best thing a Monk can do isn't damage, it's Stunning Strike. Almost no monsters are immune to Stun, it eats through Legendary Saves really quickly, and completely shuts down enemies. It's probably one of the top 5 abilities in the game.

4. Order of ASI should go Max Dex, Max Wisdom. Each stat is simply more valuable than whatever other feat you could take. Dex for obvious reasons, Wisdom because it increases the DC of your Stunning Strike.

5. If you can Multiclass, then in general the best dips are:

1 level dip = War Cleric. You pickup Guidance (great on a Monk making lots of Initiative/Stealth/Acrobatic/Slight of Hand checks) + Divine Favor (best choice for increasing DPR) + Healing Word (best panic spell for when healer goes down)

2 level dip =

Rogue. Cunning Action is just too good for saving Ki to power your Flurry of Blows + Stunning Strike. Also, Expertise is fantastic even when you can turn Invisible at-will due to still needing stealth checks. Helps save you the trouble of wasting Ki on Pass Without Trace.

Warlock (if you somehow have the spare Charisma). Hex + Eldritch blast + Devil's Sight

3 level dip =

Swashbuckler Rogue (if you somehow have worthwhile Charisma) because of the obvious Rogue reasons + Charisma to Initiative (going earlier = Stunning enemies so they don't even get a turn) + poor man's Mobile feat if you didn't take it at the beginning.

Hunter Ranger for Hunters Mark + Horde Breaker (more free attacks = more Stunning Strike) + Healing + Fighting Style (they aren't amazing for a Monk but every bit helps)

[Citan]

why on earth would a shadow monk ignore stunning blow and focus exclusively on casting spells?

i mean, don't get me wrong, shadow monks do get some great spells. i very much expect a shadow monk to spend *some* ki on using them. but a shadow monk likes stunning things just as much as any other monk, and should not ignore one of the most powerful abilities the class gets.
There is a huge nuance between "outright ignore Stunning Strike" and "optimize for Stunning Strike". Shadow Monk has clearly a biais into optimizing attacks first, and when multiclassing is available, could profit for many options, with Rogue as the first stander. As well as some offensive feats such as Mage Slayer. The rest you can deduce yourself. ;)

[odigity]

A few general pointers for playing Monks:

1. It depends a lot on what you want to do. My Monks have all been Shadow monks (level 15 and level 8) that focus on being scout/stealth/damage.

2. It also depends a LOT on what level you are likely to play to. The main question to ask is whether you will get to level 14?

If, like 99% of most campaigns, you won't ever get to level 14, then the optimized setup is to take Resiliency (Wisdom) with Vhuman at level 1. This lets you have 16/16/16 in Dex, Con, and Wisdom respectively.

Alternatively, Mobile is a great choice for feat because of the free Disengage.

3. The best thing a Monk can do isn't damage, it's Stunning Strike. Almost no monsters are immune to Stun, it eats through Legendary Saves really quickly, and completely shuts down enemies. It's probably one of the top 5 abilities in the game.

4. Order of ASI should go Max Dex, Max Wisdom. Each stat is simply more valuable than whatever other feat you could take. Dex for obvious reasons, Wisdom because it increases the DC of your Stunning Strike.

5. If you can Multiclass, then in general the best dips are:

1 level dip = War Cleric. You pickup Guidance (great on a Monk making lots of Initiative/Stealth/Acrobatic/Slight of Hand checks) + Divine Favor (best choice for increasing DPR) + Healing Word (best panic spell for when healer goes down)

2 level dip =

Rogue. Cunning Action is just too good for saving Ki to power your Flurry of Blows + Stunning Strike. Also, Expertise is fantastic even when you can turn Invisible at-will due to still needing stealth checks. Helps save you the trouble of wasting Ki on Pass Without Trace.

Warlock (if you somehow have the spare Charisma). Hex + Eldritch blast + Devil's Sight

3 level dip =

Swashbuckler Rogue (if you somehow have worthwhile Charisma) because of the obvious Rogue reasons + Charisma to Initiative (going earlier = Stunning enemies so they don't even get a turn) + poor man's Mobile feat if you didn't take it at the beginning.

Hunter Ranger for Hunters Mark + Horde Breaker (more free attacks = more Stunning Strike) + Healing + Fighting Style (they aren't amazing for a Monk but every bit helps)

That's a really good summary of ASI / MC options for Monk. (You only missed shillelagh cantrip with War Cleric for Wis-based melee.)

You should either expand this into a mini-guide, or offer it to whichever existing Monk guide is willing to incorporate it.

[RulesJD]

That's a really good summary of ASI / MC options for Monk. (You only missed shillelagh cantrip with War Cleric for Wis-based melee.)

You should either expand this into a mini-guide, or offer it to whichever existing Monk guide is willing to incorporate it.

Thanks. People are welcome to incorporate my advice as they like.


Shillelagh is actually a pretty terrible choice for a Monk.

Why? Because the cantrip only works to imbue a wooden club or quarterstaff. My Monks prefer to use a Quarterstaff with two hands (thus already getting the D8) at low levels, when the Dex and Wis are equal anyways.

Plus, the cantrip doesn't do anything to help your unarmed strikes. Having the extra damage to all attacks means increasing Dex is (slightly) better than Wisdom for a Monk.

Lastly, Monks are the best class for using Daggers and Short-swords as magical weapons because most other players won't like them due to their smaller damage die, while Monks automatically turn the damage die higher.

[Rysto]

Oh jeez, I completely missed that Shillelagh does nothing for your unarmed strikes. You're right, that's no where near as good of an option as I thought at first.

[odigity]

My Monks prefer to use a Quarterstaff with two hands (thus already getting the D8) at low levels, when the Dex and Wis are equal anyways.

Plus, the cantrip doesn't do anything to help your unarmed strikes. Having the extra damage to all attacks means increasing Dex is (slightly) better than Wisdom for a Monk.

I know. It's not something I've done, but I've heard other people discuss it as a minor improvement in niche situations where you want to pump Wis before Dex, or even leave Dex lower than Wis (both have been discussed already in this thread). That way you're using a slightly better to-hit bonus on your Attack Action attacks, at least.

Not a gamechanger, but worth mentioning for completeness if you're already going to discuss a Cleric (or Druid) dip anyway.

[MeeposFire]

Oh jeez, I completely missed that Shillelagh does nothing for your unarmed strikes. You're right, that's no where near as good of an option as I thought at first.

Also monks need their bonus action way too much to be wasting one giving a slight boost to their quartstaff. Even for a monk that uses that spell his dex will still likely be good (since you still need it to boost AC and skills even if you make wisdom primary) and so this spell will only make a slight boost and only for a limited time (eventually you are going to improve dex right).

[RulesJD]

I know. It's not something I've done, but I've heard other people discuss it as a minor improvement in niche situations where you want to pump Wis before Dex, or even leave Dex lower than Wis (both have been discussed already in this thread). That way you're using a slightly better to-hit bonus on your Attack Action attacks, at least.

Not a gamechanger, but worth mentioning for completeness if you're already going to discuss a Cleric (or Druid) dip anyway.

The problem is that there are almost no situations where it is a good idea. If you don't have time to prepare before combat, you have to burn your Bonus Action each first round, which is time you could otherwise spend Shadow Stepping (movement + Advantage on first attack), making an unarmed strike or Flurry of Blows. Monks are heavy on the bonus action side so eating that up each first round is big.

The only time you'd want it is if you need a magical weapon. Which at level 6 and beyond is also then pointless.

[RulesJD]

Also monks need their bonus action way too much to be wasting one giving a slight boost to their quartstaff. Even for a monk that uses that spell his dex will still likely be good (since you still need it to boost AC and skills even if you make wisdom primary) and so this spell will only make a slight boost and only for a limited time (eventually you are going to improve dex right).

Shillelagh doesn't boost a quarterstaff at all.

Just hold the Q-staff with 2 hands (versatile property) as a normal monk and the damage die becomes D8, same as Shillelagh.

[MeeposFire]

Shillelagh doesn't boost a quarterstaff at all.

Just hold the Q-staff with 2 hands (versatile property) as a normal monk and the damage die becomes D8, same as Shillelagh.

The damage die isn't what I was referencing (it is also the least useful property of the spell too IMO). I was referencing the ability use wisdom instead of str/dex on attack and damage rolls. That is its biggest boost but I don't feel that the boost is worth grabbing that cantrip and wasting your bonus action on your first round casting it on a class with so many bonus actions that it wants to use.

[DracoKnight]

Interesting thing on the subject of monks a hasted level 18 wood elf monk with the mobile feat can move 600ft per turn. 35 base + 30 lvl18 unarmored movement + 10 from Mobile = 75 x2 from haste =150 + 150 action dash + 150 bonus action + 150 haste action dash = 600 600 over 6secs is 100fps 100fps=68.1818 mph =109.728 kph.

and before anyone objects yes double dash (well triple dash is legal)
can't post links too new just google "sage advice dash twice" and it's the first hit

Okay, so looking at Monk's Unarmored Movement....it just says "speed" not walking speed. Speed. How fast could an aarakocra fly under the same conditions?


See of you can't get the sun blade magic sword it's a long sword but it counts as a finesse weapon.


Aaaand, it's not a monk weapon.

I don't know how many other groups do this, but mine counts the Sunblade as a monk weapon, since it calls out proficiency with longswords or shortswords as counting for proficiency with the Sunblade.

[Mandragola]

I don't see a huge argument in favour of ever boosting wis before dex. I see that it improves your DCs, which is of course a good thing, but you need to hit things in the first place before they start taking saves.

I don't think there's a lot in it, and boosting wisdom isn't terrible, but dex seems the better call to me. And given that, I don't see any point in getting shillelagh.

On the other hand, I don't see why a shadow monk would ever not want a really high wisdom. They dont' really want it any lower than anyone else. It's still AC, skills, DCs and saves.

Basically, everything a monk does keys of dex and/or wisdom. So every monk wants to max those out.

[Citan]

Shillelagh is actually a pretty terrible choice for a Monk.

Why? Because the cantrip only works to imbue a wooden club or quarterstaff.

Plus, the cantrip doesn't do anything to help your unarmed strikes. Having the extra damage to all attacks means increasing Dex is (slightly) better than Wisdom for a Monk.

Sure the cantrip does not improve your unarmed strikes, but as stressed by others, there will be many occasions when you will spend your bonus action on something else anyways. Or you could even build a niche build based on Sentinel + Polearm Master (although it's a half-waste of a feat unless niche build for concept). ^^

Also, unless you get the cantrip through Magic Initiate, don't forget the perks that come with it: dipping Nature Cleric means also a Dex-based cantrip for distance attacks and a few shots of either Bless (further increasing your to-hit) or Shield of Faith (nulling the gap in AC you would have compared to a maxed Monk), and extra skill. Of course, it's very few spells slots unless you get at least 3 levels Cleric, but it can still be worth it.

And if you want to get it through Magic Initiate, you can be a variant human to grab it immediately, allowing you to bump WIS ASAP, just before you get Stunning Strike. ;)


I don't see a huge argument in favour of ever boosting wis before dex. I see that it improves your DCs, which is of course a good thing, but you need to hit things in the first place before they start taking saves.

I don't think there's a lot in it, and boosting wisdom isn't terrible, but dex seems the better call to me. And given that, I don't see any point in getting shillelagh.

On the other hand, I don't see why a shadow monk would ever not want a really high wisdom. They dont' really want it any lower than anyone else. It's still AC, skills, DCs and saves.

Basically, everything a monk does keys of dex and/or wisdom. So every monk wants to max those out.
The point of WIS first is not AC, it's DC for Stunning Strike and other Monk abilities based on it.
The argument is simple: once you leave theorycrafting to get into actual play, you realize that you usually get plenty of ways to enhance your to-hit thanks to party features, while you have very little way to make your WIS skills more reliable.

As for the Shadow, sure, a pure Shadow may, probably, max WIS in the end as well, unless a niche build heavy on feats (such as Alert+Mobile+Mage Slayer ^^). But if you multiclass, one of the usually good option is dipping Rogue, with Assassin archetype, meaning you will also like feats such as Alert (and maybe Observant or Skulker). Meaning you will have to favor DEX first without necessarily having as many ASI as usual, while trying to grab more feats than usual.
Or multiclass Warlock to get Devil's Sight along with Hex and Armor of Agathys, meaning you have to disperse your ability scores to meet requirements.

Since for a Shadow only Stunning Strike relies on WIS, and you get lesser ki anyways, it's not so bad to make it a bit less reliable if you compensate in other fields such as sustained damage or utility, as long as it's something the party needs (or you have a really great character concept ^^). ;)

[MrStabby]

One of my favourites was a high elf shadowmonk with the booming blade cantrip.

The ability to run in, hit with a booming blade and teleport out again was superb for harassment and gave me a lot to do whilst Ki was low. It also provided a decent enough option vs hordes where stunning would do less than just taking down more enemies quickly. Yes, it is a little inefficient given the second attack but it does work well with advantage from teleport (loading up a single attack with more damage).

It might not be optimal, but it was good and certainly fun.

[odigity]

One of my favourites was a high elf shadowmonk with the booming blade cantrip.

How did you pick that up? Magic Initiate? Caster dip?

[Specter]

I don't think Monks need to worry about AC too much, as long as they have the Mobile feat or spend a ki point to diesngage. Kiting is much better for survival than tanking.

[MrStabby]

How did you pick that up? Magic Initiate? Caster dip?

Racial ability.

[georgie_leech]

How did you pick that up? Magic Initiate? Caster dip?

High elf. I know Wood elves are the standard for Monks, but High elves get a cantrip out of the box.

EDIT: Rather appropriately, Shadowmonk'd

[SharkForce]

There is a huge nuance between "outright ignore Stunning Strike" and "optimize for Stunning Strike". Shadow Monk has clearly a biais into optimizing attacks first, and when multiclassing is available, could profit for many options, with Rogue as the first stander. As well as some offensive feats such as Mage Slayer. The rest you can deduce yourself. ;)

if shadow monk optimizes anything, it is stealth, not attacks. and while you can do some interesting things with shadow monk and deep multiclasses, i wouldn't really say that fits into the question of optimizing a monk. i mean, a monk/warlock/rogue (or similar) is certainly *part* monk, but it isn't really what i would think of when someone just says "i'm going to create a monk for my next character".

if you want to talk about stuff that is only advisable for builds that involve heavy multiclassing outside of monk, and that advice doesn't also fit for a single class monk, you should probably actually mention the fact that you're talking about something other than a monk. just because a rogue with a 6 level shadow monk dip won't have ki to spam on stunning enemies doesn't make it good advice for someone who's going pure monk.

[RSP]

I actually think maxing Wis first (assuming 16 start for Wis and Dex) is the better move. Its much easier to improve to hit chances, or get advantage, than it is to improve DCs.

Plus, Monks have at least 3 chances a round to hit, and it only takes one effective Stunning Strike to land to get advantage on all subsequent.

Furthermore, if you're Stealthing, you're probably a Shadow Monk, and therefore using Pass W/O Trace for the +10 Stealth bonus, making the difference to Dex getting a +1 or +2 pretty insignificant, comparatively.

You only use Stunning Strike after you hit, but you lose the Ki point for the use whether the target passes the save or not. I'd rather hit 10% less, but Stun 10% more, rather than hitting more often, but wasting more Ki getting Stunning Strike to land.

Basically, maxing Wis first is more efficient.

[djreynolds]

Every monk looks the same, I'm sorry but I said it.

A barbarian can be dex based, or strength, or wear armor... a monk literally has no options.

I've played several and I do like the base class and a lot of my enjoyment comes from me the player sort of illustrating the fight sequence.

Yeah you can add in another class or some spells

What I want are different strikes that can do different stuff and only for the monk, maybe the fighter could get something akin to this with weapons.

And its really the only reason I like monk, is the elemental monk, its crazy, I want fists of fire, and thundering side kicks

I want GWM for flying side kicks, sundering elbows, stinky pits, whatever. Elemental monk is cheesy, really its just a fireball called something else, and way too expensive on KI points.

Its why I usually stress mobile or swashbuckler dips, so you can save on KI points...

My group came up with special monk weapons, like the sling staff and bow/staff

A rogue gets cunning action, an awesome class feature.

[Citan]

if shadow monk optimizes anything, it is stealth, not attacks. and while you can do some interesting things with shadow monk and deep multiclasses, i wouldn't really say that fits into the question of optimizing a monk. i mean, a monk/warlock/rogue (or similar) is certainly *part* monk, but it isn't really what i would think of when someone just says "i'm going to create a monk for my next character".

if you want to talk about stuff that is only advisable for builds that involve heavy multiclassing outside of monk, and that advice doesn't also fit for a single class monk, you should probably actually mention the fact that you're talking about something other than a monk. just because a rogue with a 6 level shadow monk dip won't have ki to spam on stunning enemies doesn't make it good advice for someone who's going pure monk.
Why don't you try to understand properly what I said instead of deforming my word?
How would a Monk 15 / Rogue 5 (up to Uncanny Dodge) not be a Monk for example? or a Monk 17 / Tome Warlock 3 (fill in for lacking Cleric/Wizard for rituals while getting darkvision and other perks)? Or a Monk 17 / Battlemaster Fighter 3 (a few dices for more control options)?

And why would a Shadow need to "optimize" stealth when he is already basically golden at it (although Expertise could always be a nice touch) thanks to Stealth as available skill, good Dex and hiding related spells in the core of the archetype?

My advice also fits for a pure Shadow Monk, although I understand it may puzzle some: a Shadow Monk with only 18 WIS but Mobile and Mage Slayer seems pretty powerful to me, as well as one with 16 WIS and the addition of Sentinel.
(Obviously, if there is someone in the party that can help with to-hit, I'd rather bump WIS and keep DEX as is though, confer previous posts).

[SharkForce]

Why don't you try to understand properly what I said instead of deforming my word?
How would a Monk 15 / Rogue 5 (up to Uncanny Dodge) not be a Monk for example? or a Monk 17 / Tome Warlock 3 (fill in for lacking Cleric/Wizard for rituals while getting darkvision and other perks)? Or a Monk 17 / Battlemaster Fighter 3 (a few dices for more control options)?

And why would a Shadow need to "optimize" stealth when he is already basically golden at it (although Expertise could always be a nice touch) thanks to Stealth as available skill, good Dex and hiding related spells in the core of the archetype?

My advice also fits for a pure Shadow Monk, although I understand it may puzzle some: a Shadow Monk with only 18 WIS but Mobile and Mage Slayer seems pretty powerful to me, as well as one with 16 WIS and the addition of Sentinel.
(Obviously, if there is someone in the party that can help with to-hit, I'd rather bump WIS and keep DEX as is though, confer previous posts).

you talked about shadow monk only using ki for spells because that's all they would have. i can assure you, a level 17 shadow monk (with or without 3 levels of tome lock or battlemaster) can afford to spend ki on things other than spells, as can a level 15 monk (with or without 5 levels of rogue), and is not purely attack focused (with or without those multiclass builds), contrary to what has been claimed.

you talked about wisdom not being important for shadow monks, and again, that simply is not true for a monk that has 15 or 17 levels of monk, because stunning is still quite viable for them, which means wisdom is still quite important for them.

there is no such thing as a monk that does not benefit substantially from high wisdom, more so than most feats.

and shadow monks are optimized for stealth precisely BECAUSE of those features. in contrast, the features they have for boosting attacks are unimpressive at best (sure, they get advantage when they teleport, but they could have just punched things an extra time with that bonus action from their base monk class features, in which case they would have two attack rolls... except instead of only one counting, both count, and could hit twice, and both could benefit from advantage if the monk got it from some other source).

you certainly *could* make a monk (of any archetype) with low wisdom. just like you could make a low intelligence wizard. but you'd be giving up something pretty major. i'd much rather have a monk that can just stun a wizard in the first place than a monk who can get up next to the wizard and sit around and hope not to get ganged up on and slaughtered. the former can get in, stun a critical enemy, and get out. the latter gets in, hopes the wizard doesn't just walk away, and gets ganged up on by the enemy while separated from the party.

and sentinel... on a monk... i'm not seeing it. monks don't want to be the target of attacks, they don't want to stand next to squishy characters in the back lines, and if anything does get through the back lines they can probably just move around you anyways. a substantial amount of what the feat gives you is useless. i just can't see it as a good investment for a monk in any way.