Help me stat out a beastman

[WarKitty]

Basically, the idea is "rowr I eat your face off." So abilities required are extended shapeshifting (meaning, possible to sustain for several combats) starting at level 1, and then after that pretty much anything good for a melee brute. I was thinking of using shapeshift druid as the base, then going into master of many forms warshaper and fist of the forest. Any other dips I should take on it? Ideas?

[Vizzerdrix]

Divine minion on a warforged, then add incarnum construct. Sebek gets a crocodile shape.

Psychic Warrior for expansion, then maybe the swallowing feat from savage species.

[WarKitty]

Divine minion on a warforged, then add incarnum construct. Sebek gets a crocodile shape.

Doesn't divine minion add LA?

Not sure I like warforged anyways. It's just the wrong feel.

[Gruftzwerg]

see my signature for monk/warlock adoption of the idea with Eldritch Claws.

edit:

another idea would be Dragonwrought Earth Kobold (-2 Strength, -2 Constitution) with the Ravening dragon psychosis (Dragon Magazine #313, gives +4 Strength and -4 Wisdom). Sums up to +2 Strength.
Further the Ravening psychosis gives your the "Eat or Die" Ability. You need to eat every day the amount of your size or get Constitution loss. Just read the details.
It could be a really flavorful build.

[WarKitty]

see my signature for monk/warlock adoption of the idea with Eldritch Claws.

When does the eldritch claws ability come online?

[MisterKaws]

Just get a CE Soulborn/Stoneblessed(Goliath)/Barbarian(Mountain Rage) Tibbit. You get full STR(the tibbit's shape change modifiers are, oddly enough, classified as penalties) on cat form, and can become a ten feet tall kitty with Mountain Rage.

[Kaje]

Just get a CE Soulborn/Stoneblessed(Goliath)/Barbarian(Mountain Rage) Tibbit. You get full STR(the tibbit's shape change modifiers are, oddly enough, classified as penalties) on cat form, and can become a ten feet tall kitty with Mountain Rage.

Per mountain rage, the kitty only grows about a foot, but is large.

[MisterKaws]

Per mountain rage, the kitty only grows about a foot, but is large.

Okay, so we're even better, having a two-feet kitty which is considered to be as large as a warhorse for some odd reason.

[Gruftzwerg]

When does the eldritch claws ability come online?

Dragon #358: Eldritch Claws


Prerequisite: Eldritch blast 2d6.
Benefit: As a free action, you can form the energy of your eldritch blast into a set of claws extending almost an entire foot from your hands. While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons. You are automatically proficient with your eldritch claws. On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage. Once you form your eldritch claws they remain until just before the beginning of your next turn. You cannot use your normal eldritch blast ability while your eldritch claws exist. A monk may not use eldritch claws as part of her flurry of blows.

[bookkeeping guy]

Shouldn't shapeshifting be kept separate though? If there's shapeshifting then you are just making a werewolf, werebear, werecat, etc...

And for campaign purposes...would beastkin be natural enemeies of lycanthropes? It could make for some really interesting campaign and story material. Maybe they are natural rivals.

[Cerefel]

Hengeyokai is a race of animal shapechangers that have a hybrid form the transformation doesn't have a limited duration and you qualify for warshaper.

[Vizzerdrix]

Doesn't divine minion add LA?

Not sure I like warforged anyways. It's just the wrong feel.

Divine minion can be either +1 or +2 LA, and Incarnum Construct is a -2 LA template that turns a construct into a living person.

Sebek divine minion shadow warforged incarnum construct. You are now a crocodile that can vanish into any shadow.

[WarKitty]

Shouldn't shapeshifting be kept separate though? If there's shapeshifting then you are just making a werewolf, werebear, werecat, etc...

And for campaign purposes...would beastkin be natural enemeies of lycanthropes? It could make for some really interesting campaign and story material. Maybe they are natural rivals.

Really what I want to do is play a werecreature. The trouble is the way the templates and such work actual werecreatures don't come online for several levels - I want something that's playable starting at level 1.

[Kaje]

How about a Shifter? They're descended from lycanthropes and at level 1 they can shift into a more lycanthropey form 1/day for 3+con rounds, similar to a barbarian. and you can increase the frequency and duration by taking shifter feats.

[WarKitty]

How about a Shifter? They're descended from lycanthropes and at level 1 they can shift into a more lycanthropey form 1/day for 3+con rounds, similar to a barbarian. and you can increase the frequency and duration by taking shifter feats.

I really need something that you can rely on turning into beast form as a primary combat maneuver. 1/day for 3+con rounds doesn't cut it.

[Kaje]

Can you use flaws to get more shifter feats?

Really, from level 1, your options are very limited. Shifters shift 1/day. Hengeyokai can change form twice, though for unlimited duration. Tibbit transforms at will, but is still just a tiny housecat. Classes aren't going to be much help either from level 1. Your best bet is probably refluffing a totemist.

[EldritchWeaver]

If you can convince your GM to use Spheres of Power, the upcoming Shapeshifter Handbook includes two feats which are supposed to provide the Level 1 lycanthrope (the second feat is optional, also unlimited duration for the shapeshift). Even if you merely restrict the rules to "What kind of forms can I get?" and leave the rest of the magic system out of your game, this should be enough to make your character work.

[WarKitty]

Can you use flaws to get more shifter feats?

Really, from level 1, your options are very limited. Shifters shift 1/day. Hengeyokai can change form twice, though for unlimited duration. Tibbit transforms at will, but is still just a tiny housecat. Classes aren't going to be much help either from level 1. Your best bet is probably refluffing a totemist.

That's where I was thinking of using PHBII shapeshift druid - shapeshifting at will as many times a day as you want.

[bookkeeping guy]

What about ecology, family, and tribal organizations of beastkin / beastmen?

Do you want this character to be like a lone wolf orphan or does he live with a pack or tribe?

How does the tribe live? Are they hunters/gatherers in the wilderness or do they live in a city doing some kinds of trades?

Will he have an existing family? If so is he or she the son or daughter or a parent? Does he pay child support?

[Pyromancer999]

Having looked into the Shapeshift Druid before, I've found this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5486.0), which provides some very good builds(particularly the Shifter one in bold). They do tend to rely a little more on non-druid class levels, but seem they are very effective for a combat Brute, and do rely on the shapeshifting to be used to the utmost. If you aren't particularly worried about the extra reach and fast healing that Warshaper 3 and 4 provide in that thread, you can always substitute 2 levels of Fist of the Forest for those, and take out another level of Druid for the third level if you like that. Can also substitute a level of Druid or Barbarian for a level in Warblade, focusing on the Tiger's Claw discipline, although that should be delayed a bit to get access to higher level maneuvers.

Also, as another tweak, if you're intent on being a Fist of the Forest, the fluff says that they give up many/all of their possessions. Although weaker than having normal WBL, you can go Sacred Vow-> Vow of Poverty to get a bonus of magic item-type bonuses, which do apply to natural weapons and are kept while Shapeshifting.

Edit: For further build advice, are you satisfied with only the 1st level form, or do you want the flight and bigger melee brute modes(not that the latter is necessarily worth 8 or 10 levels to get the full effect of in my opinion).

Also, Shapeshift Druids do not qualify for Master of Many Forms, as they do not possess Wildshape. If you are looking for early entry/Shapeshifting from level 1, Totem Druid from Dragon Magazine does get you wildshape at level 1 for your totem animal only, with the restriction you can only turn into your totem animal. Still, Dragon material is not always allowed, and the entry does somewhat violate the spirit of the MoMF.

If you do go Totem Druid or some other route that grants you wildshape, Planar Shepherd 2 is not a bad expansion for the plane of Lammania, as that gets you access to almost all magical beasts for wildshape. If you do not mind waiting for actual wildshape, Shifter Shapeshifting Druid 8/Moonspeaker 5/Planar Shepherd 2/X 5 gets you back Wildshape at level 13 and magical beasts at 15th, although that does take away from the combat brute side.

[WarKitty]

I meant warshaper rather than master of many forms, sorry. Shapeshifter druid should qualify for warshaper. I was thinking of VoP, although if I did that going druid at least far enough to gain flight would be necessary.

[MisterKaws]

Divine minion can be either +1 or +2 LA, and IncarnumSoulfused Construct is a -2 LA template that turns a construct into a living person.

Sebek divine minion shadow warforged IncarnumSoulfused construct. You are now a crocodile that can vanish into any shadow.

The template doesn't allow Living Constructs, so normal Warforged can't take it.

[Pyromancer999]

I meant warshaper rather than master of many forms, sorry. Shapeshifter druid should qualify for warshaper. I was thinking of VoP, although if I did that going druid at least far enough to gain flight would be necessary.

There are other ways to gain flight, like Shape Soulmeld(Airstep Boots) -> Unlock Least Chakra gets you a slow and steady flight speed. Also works for the Astral Vambrace Soulmeld. Granted, these are slow(20'), but do the job and can be used while shifted.There also is the Winged Template, but probably not great for level 1. There are other ways that are race-locked, like being a Raptoran, or being an Aasimar/Tielfing and taking Celestial/Fiendish Bloodline -> Outsider Wings.

It's also totally fine to not go VoP, but is hard to find a way to fly that will work with your magic items melded into you, at least that is a more permanent item that's not a custom item.


The template doesn't allow Living Constructs, so normal Warforged can't take it.

I believe they're talking about Incarnate Construct from Savage Species. Gives you -2 LA and makes you lose almost all your traits and a humanoid. Warforged are technically constructs, so they do qualify for this, although they don't lose much, hence making it a favorite for LA reduction if you just want a template. That said, is pretty cheesy to use it on a Warforged.

[MisterKaws]

I believe they're talking about Incarnate Construct from Savage Species. Gives you -2 LA and makes you lose almost all your traits and a humanoid. Warforged are technically constructs, so they do qualify for this, although they don't lose much, hence making it a favorite for LA reduction if you just want a template. That said, is pretty cheesy to use it on a Warforged.

Oh, that one. I should have noticed after looking at the description and the LA...

I guess my brain just doesn't want to look at cheesy templates after I've done so much abuse.

[WarKitty]

There are other ways to gain flight, like Shape Soulmeld(Airstep Boots) -> Unlock Least Chakra gets you a slow and steady flight speed. Also works for the Astral Vambrace Soulmeld. Granted, these are slow(20'), but do the job and can be used while shifted.There also is the Winged Template, but probably not great for level 1. There are other ways that are race-locked, like being a Raptoran, or being an Aasimar/Tielfing and taking Celestial/Fiendish Bloodline -> Outsider Wings.

It's also totally fine to not go VoP, but is hard to find a way to fly that will work with your magic items melded into you, at least that is a more permanent item that's not a custom item.

Yeah that's the other reason I was thinking shapeshift druid. The flying is a nice touch, but, well, druid casting. Even if you don't use it to its fullest druid casting can make up for a lot of magical items that won't be practical otherwise (such as magic fang to overcome DR).

[Cerefel]

There are other ways to gain flight, like Shape Soulmeld(Airstep Boots) -> Unlock Least Chakra gets you a slow and steady flight speed.

I'm not sure you can really call it steady. You have to land every round.

[Pyromancer999]

Yeah that's the other reason I was thinking shapeshift druid. The flying is a nice touch, but, well, druid casting. Even if you don't use it to its fullest druid casting can make up for a lot of magical items that won't be practical otherwise (such as magic fang to overcome DR).

Well, VoP does treat your weapons as being magic. Also, if going to Druid 5, your natural weapons count as magic at level 4 anyway, and are +1 magic weapons. Granted, Druid spells are lovely, just saying there's better things to do with those spells. If intending to go Druid 5 anyway, you can shift your Shape at level 1 with the Aspect of the Wolf spell(does replace your ability scores, though, but lasts 10 minutes/CL), which you could make do with until you get Wildshape. Could boost your CL somehow to get longer durations, but should be fine with filling all your 1st level slots with Aspect of the Wolf, and taking Druidic Avenger to swap out the Animal Companion for Rage.

Edit: 1st level Druid can also cast Aquatic Escape to turn into a fish, or Winged Watcher to become an Owl or a Raven for 1 round/level. So not good on time, but can be used for a fly speed if needed on Shapeshift Druid 1.


I'm not sure you can really call it steady. You have to land every round.

That is true. Ignore me on that. Astral Vambrace is consistent, though.

[WarKitty]

Well, VoP does treat your weapons as being magic. Also, if going to Druid 5, your natural weapons count as magic at level 4 anyway, and are +1 magic weapons. Granted, Druid spells are lovely, just saying there's better things to do with those spells. If intending to go Druid 5 anyway, you can shift your Shape at level 1 with the Aspect of the Wolf spell(does replace your ability scores, though, but lasts 10 minutes/CL), which you could make do with until you get Wildshape. Could boost your CL somehow to get longer durations, but should be fine with filling all your 1st level slots with Aspect of the Wolf, and taking Druidic Avenger to swap out the Animal Companion for Rage.

Point. So would it be better to go druid up until the prestige classes, or better to do shapeshift druid 1 and then some martial class?

[Cerefel]

That is true. Ignore me on that. Astral Vambrace is consistent, though.

I forgot to point out that flight from astral vambraces requires a lesser chakra which can't be obtained through feats until level 12 (at which point you may as well bind pegasus cloak instead)

[Pyromancer999]

Point. So would it be better to go druid up until the prestige classes, or better to do shapeshift druid 1 and then some martial class?

Wildshape does have better long-term potential for melee disaster from bjorked physical stats and special abilities. However, that requires knowledge of an extensive number of forms to take, which can expand even more with additional forms enabled through feats & prcs, which is available online. There are also various buffs and other spells which make self-buffing more viable, although not necessarily long-term. Shapeshift Druid is more for simplicity, plus you don't have to worry too much about your Wis score.

So go Druid 5 before prestiging out if you want more variety and power(although needs a bit more bookkeeping, and go Shapeshift Druid 1 -> melee if you'd like something more simple and easy to keep track of.


I forgot to point out that flight from astral vambraces requires a lesser chakra which can't be obtained through feats until level 12 (at which point you may as well bind pegasus cloak instead)

Valid point, did not check that. Thanks for pointing that out.

[WarKitty]

Wildshape does have better long-term potential for melee disaster from bjorked physical stats and special abilities. However, that requires knowledge of an extensive number of forms to take, which can expand even more with additional forms enabled through feats & prcs, which is available online. There are also various buffs and other spells which make self-buffing more viable, although not necessarily long-term. Shapeshift Druid is more for simplicity, plus you don't have to worry too much about your Wis score.

I'm more worried about breaking another druid. After my last one I was told to knock it off because I was single-handedly solving encounters meant for 5 pc's. Granted that was a different group, but me being able to find ridiculous crap really isn't an issue.

[Pyromancer999]

I'm more worried about breaking another druid. After my last one I was told to knock it off because I was single-handedly solving encounters meant for 5 pc's. Granted that was a different group, but me being able to find ridiculous crap really isn't an issue.

Ah. Shapeshifter Druid 1 then melee is the simplest, then. It's more predictable(in terms of capability, which is that of a Combat Brute). Also, Shapeshifting is less powerful, so less of a chance to overshadow your fellow PCs. You'll have some Druid spells for some diversity, but otherwise be fine. If you wanted to be even more combat-based, you may want to ask your DM if you can modify Wildshape Ranger to use Shapeshift instead, which is a much better 1st level without changing up the power level.

That said, the thread that I linked to has perfectly good melee builds with Shapeshifting Druid 1, so you should be safe if you try to at least loosely follow those builds. You'll be a melee person, and leave room for others in the party to fill the other niches. Just make sure to primarily focus on physical stats like a melee character, and you should be just a bit better than a well-built barbarian.

[WarKitty]

Ok so the biggest problem if I go VoP (which as I recall I did want to do) is to gain a fly speed. We're going to want one that is suitable for use in aerial melee combat.

(Sorry if any of this is mentioned in the linked threads. The internet filter at work is a bit random in what I can and can't get to. Brilliantgameologists and enworld are both blocked, even though gitp isn't.)

[Pyromancer999]

Ok so the biggest problem if I go VoP (which as I recall I did want to do) is to gain a fly speed. We're going to want one that is suitable for use in aerial melee combat.

VoP is not needed, just a suggestion. Although if you go Shapeshift Druid 5 for Aerial Form, nothing bad with that. If you want full benefit(a.k.a. the Flyby Attack feat), you'll need Druid 7. At that point, may as well go Shapeshift Druid 8 for the more powerful land melee combat form. Two more levels gets you Improved Critical with your Bite and Claws from that, and that's the end of the Animal forms for Shapeshift Druid. From there, you could pick up a level of Barbarian if you're a Shifter (may be better to do earlier for Shifter Savagery while Shapeshifted, which works very well with Improved Critical), then going Warshaper 2 or 4(3 and 4 get you an extra 5' in reach and Fast Healing). From there, could go Fist of the Forest 3/Any Full BAB class 2(Assuming Shapeshift Druid 10) for +16 BAB and good melee stuff. Would recommend Warblade for full BAB, Tiger Claw maneuvers, and heightened Maneuver level due to being a high-level character. Levels can be taken in whatever order, and this is merely one possible suggestion that does depend on how much you want out of the Aerial melee and the levels after. Basic gist is if you plan to go for Aerial Combat, the break points are 5(for basic Aerial Form), 7(to add Flyby Attack to Aerial), 8(adds another BAB and nets you a superior combat form, so why not take that if you want 7's benefits, plus ups your natural weapons' magic enhancement to 2), or 10(add Improved Critical to your Shapeshifted Superior combat form's natural attacks.

Use Druid spells for whatever buffs or utility you and/or your party need.

[WarKitty]

I really like the idea of VoP, honestly. The character is meant to be really the idea of a self-sufficient, I don't need no stinkin' weapons or fancy-shmancy armor to rip your face off feral barbarian. So VoP completes the character nicely - it's not a full substitute for magic items, but if you don't want to use them it rounds things out nicely.

If I'm going shifter, it could also be used to gain a flight speed as well, since by the time I really need flight it would be coming online a bit better.

[Pyromancer999]

I really like the idea of VoP, honestly. The character is meant to be really the idea of a self-sufficient, I don't need no stinkin' weapons or fancy-shmancy armor to rip your face off feral barbarian. So VoP completes the character nicely - it's not a full substitute for magic items, but if you don't want to use them it rounds things out nicely.


I've gone VoP normal Druid before, and can attest it does work nicely for melee. So yeah, if you are intent upon having an aerial melee form, probably should go Shapeshift Druid 5 or 8(as 7 does round out Aerial, but another level grants you so much, including an improved combat form).



If I'm going shifter, it could also be used to gain a flight speed as well, since by the time I really need flight it would be coming online a bit better.

You could go Swiftwing(the fly speed one), but unless you can attack with your feet(which Fist of the Forest does allow you to do, but doesn't allow for nice natural weapon benefits), you explicitly can't use your arms for anything but flying while you fly. Also, going one of the natural attack ones(Longtooth, Razorclaw, or Gorebrute) allows you to take Shifter Savagery with a dip in Barbarian, which when shifting and raging simulaneously, increases your natural weapons'(not just those gained from shifting) damage die as if you were 2 sizes larger, but also doubles your threat range.Hence why I noted it works especially well with stacking with the Improved Critical benefit from Shapeshift Druid 10 of your shapeshifted weapons for your better combat form, as it doubles the natural weapons' ranges twice for 4x the threat range.

[WarKitty]

There's also either the dragonblooded or outsider feat lines for wings. Fiendish heritage might be flavorful on this sort of character. Downside is it costs 2 feats.

[Pyromancer999]

There's also either the dragonblooded or outsider feat lines for wings. Fiendish heritage might be flavorful on this sort of character. Downside is it costs 2 feats.

True. Although Dragonblood Wings restrict your race to one that starts out with the Dragonblood subtype or Human/Strongheart Halfling, while Outsider Wings require you to be Aasimar or Tiefling(Lesser versions, of course). Neither really boosts what you're looking for(aside from +2 Wis from Aasimar). There is also the Winged Template(although LA+1) or Raptoran if you want wings from 1st level, although true, unlimited flight comes at 10th level, but you don't have to spend feats on that. Raptoran does have the footbow for mid-air combat, though.

[WarKitty]

Next question is what prestige classes work well? Warshaper definitely. Fist of the forest might be nice but the prerequisites are kind of useless.

[Pyromancer999]

Depends on what other base classes you take. You can go Unarmed Swordsage 2 for Improved Unarmed Strike and Wisdom to AC + Maneuvers and benefits to natural weapons from specializing in Tiger Claw. From there, you could go into Fist of the Forest and/or Bloodclaw Master, Expert in Tiger Claw, the discipline that uses TWF and natural attacks, which also is really good for Shifters, letting them get more and longer shifting, plus letting them count as Razorclaw for qualifying for feats(good for Shifter Savagery). Barbarian dip + Shifter Savagery is always nice, especially with Lion Totem for Pounce.

For an exalted Druid, Lion of Talisid is great, giving you back some Wildshape(1HD per class level), full casting, and other goodies, like Pounce at 5th. If you don't want to use the Wildshape to change shape, you can always use it to power a [Wild] feat. Don't quite remember the name (It's supposed to be like a bat), but there's one that grants blindsight in exchange for a Wildshape use. There are others that are more utilitarian(think one grants a swim speed), but the class does grant stuff a beastman would have.

Totemist 2 uses incarnum to gain natural attacks or otherwise mimic magical beasts, which is good for your fluff, at least, and also gets the Totem Chakra. Mesh this with Cobalt Rage and Barbarian to go into Totem Rager, which does some good stuff for your rage(including investing essentia to prolong it), and also progresses meldshaping.

Exact Amount of each you use depends on how deep you want to go into Druid. Example build could be Shapeshifter Druid 10/Warshaper 2/Swordsage 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Bloodclaw Master 5. Can substitute Warblade 1/Barbarian 1 for Swordsage 2 if you want to use Shifter Savagery. It does depend on how deep down the Druid hole you want to go, though.

[WarKitty]

How does improved unarmed strike work with natural weapons anyways? That was one of my reservations with fist of the forest - it has improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite, and I wasn't sure if that was useful on a natural weapons build.

[Pyromancer999]

How does improved unarmed strike work with natural weapons anyways? That was one of my reservations with fist of the forest - it has improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite, and I wasn't sure if that was useful on a natural weapons build.

It's a weird territory. Some say they are, and Skip Williams himself has said they should count as natural weapons at some point. However, the only clear way to get your unarmed strikes to count as natural weapons is to be a monk, whose text says they count as such. Still, an Unarmed Swordsage gets a monk's damage for Unarmed Strikes, so that same text should apply there too.

[WarKitty]

I'm thinking of doing druid 1 and then martial classes for a quick entry into warshaper (so entering warshaper at level 6).

[Pyromancer999]

Hm. Barbarian 2/X 1/Warblade 1 after Shapeshift Druid 1 could get you in Warshaper at 6th. If you plan to go further later into Druid, another level in Druid does the job. Otherwise, another level of Warblade is nice, or a level in Fighter to help meet prerequisites for Fist of the Forest.

Also, on Fist of the Forest for your character: Although the unarmed strike is nice, the better thing is having Con to AC, which you do need a good score in anyway, and boost with Warshaper. If you wanted to be a dwarf for some reason, Stonewarden 2 would do that for you and get you Trap Sense, but does take 2 levels instead of 1 and more skills, although with less feats.

[WarKitty]

Ugh, I suppose at some point I should learn how ToB works. Can't be that hard. If I go lesser tiefling I'd probably do lion totem barbarian 1 for pounce and then fighter 2 to grab some extra feats.

I kinda like the idea of a tiefling. Beware of hellhound!

[Pyromancer999]

Ugh, I suppose at some point I should learn how ToB works. Can't be that hard. If I go lesser tiefling I'd probably do lion totem barbarian 1 for pounce and then fighter 2 to grab some extra feats.

It's fairly simple. You prepare your maneuvers in your maneuver slots, and re-gain them after every encounter, presuming you've rested for 5 minutes. Warblade is good because it can regain its maneuvers readied in an encounter by making a single normal attach. Fighter 2 still is pretty good for the bonus feats, though, even if you decide to not go Fist of the Forest. Just to be sure, that puts you at 4th level. What do you plan to do with your 5th? Another Barbarian level might not be bad for Uncanny Dodge.

Also, if you go Monk afterwards for Wis to AC, you can easy-bake the requirements for Sacred Fist(only need Combat Casting), which advances your unarmored AC and unarmed strike damage at Full BAB, plus gets full spellcasting(or 8/10 if you go by the chart, no biggie as you've established that's not a priority), and also some abilities that key off Wisdom. Plus, there's nothing saying you can't make an unarmed strike while Shapeshifted, so that could be good. Probably don't want to take all 10 levels(as good as they are), but is good to take on the whole. You can refluff it so that you're drawing primal, animalistic power from nature instead of some deity.


I kinda like the idea of a tiefling. Beware of hellhound!

That reminds me: While not a shapeshifting class, the Hellreaver does exist. Basically gets a pseudo-rage every encounter and gets a pool of points to spend on things like bonuses to hit and damage, some pretty good healing, and some special attacks. Not particularly synergistic, but does work.

That said, while not quite synergistic(but not bad either), Tiefling certainly is fun. Although given you're a Druid and VoP-ing, you will have to be Neutral Good. Still, if you want it, go for it! Although also, could always go Hellbred for another good bit of demonic fluff(although a lot more RP risk, as if you die, you're going straight to Hell, and you've been there before). Lesser Tiefling is probably better though.

[WarKitty]

Hmm...Lesser tiefling, shapeshift druid 1/lion totem barb 1/ fighter 2/something full BAB X/warshaper 5/Fist of the forest 1. Not sure what to put in that X (probably ToB something), or what to do after fist of the forest.

[Pyromancer999]

Hmm...Lesser tiefling, shapeshift druid 1/lion totem barb 1/ fighter 2/something full BAB X/warshaper 5/Fist of the forest 1. Not sure what to put in that X (probably ToB something), or what to do after fist of the forest.

Could do another level of Barbarian or another level of Shapeshift Druid. Also could always go for a level in Hexblade for a mild debuff with cursing, Warblade for Maneuvers, or Duskblade just because you can. Can also do Ranger for skills and the Arcane Hunter ACF.

Also, you don't want to go Warshaper 5 because the capstone does nothing for you, and you lose a point of BAB. Warshaper 4 provides all the benefit you can get out of the class.

Edit: After Fist of the Forest, you could always go Primeval for simplicity, although since it also requires 3 feats, might mean delaying Fist of the Forest a bit, depending on what you pick up with those Fighter feats(Improved Unarmed Strike plus another prerequisite for one of the two). Basically you get the ability to do an altered Wildshape into a Dire Animal(that adds to your base stats instead of replacing them), for 1 min/class level. Gets increased uses and augmentation to the form as you progress(although penalties to some mental stats as you regress, basically a -1 to Int and Cha for every 3 levels, although you get a +1 to all other stats at the same rate), some other stuff thrown in for when you're not in primeval form(although not much), full BAB and good hit die, plus the capstone changes your type to Magical Beast. Nets you +18 BAB on the whole.

Other than that, could just continue Shapeshift Druid to 10, then spend the last level or two on finishing Fist of the Forest or going Barbarian, Ranger, or just Totemist 2 for the heck of it. That nets you +16 BAB (15 if Totemist).

[WarKitty]

Could do another level of Barbarian or another level of Shapeshift Druid. Also could always go for a level in Hexblade for a mild debuff with cursing, Warblade for Maneuvers, or Duskblade just because you can. Can also do Ranger for skills and the Arcane Hunter ACF.

Hmm, don't really want to go more spellcasting (if I wanted to do that I'd go druid). Warblade isn't bad. Tis a pity monk isn't full BAB. Why????


Also, you don't want to go Warshaper 5 because the capstone does nothing for you, and you lose a point of BAB. Warshaper 4 provides all the benefit you can get out of the class.

*looks* well that's what I get for trying to do this between calls at work. You're right, 5 is useless.

[Pyromancer999]

Hmm, don't really want to go more spellcasting (if I wanted to do that I'd go druid). Warblade isn't bad. Tis a pity monk isn't full BAB. Why???

If your DM is flexible with systems, Unchained Monk from Pathfinder gets Full BAB. It's not like you would take a lot of levels in it, so it shouldn't be too different, although saves aren't perfect. If your DM is even more flexible, could try for Pugilist fighter from Dragon Magazine or Brawler from Pathfinder.

Edit: Pugilist would take care of all of your feat needs for Fist of the Forest, and if you also wanted to go Primeval, it would take care of 4 out of 6 needed feats, with bonus feats included.



*looks* well that's what I get for trying to do this between calls at work. You're right, 5 is useless.

Not the worst mistake, as most builds do get some benefit out of it. Also, note edit above.

[Eisfalken]

I have a weird suggestion to make here: make a sorcerer-based gish who goes all-in on polymorph and other transmutation spells.

No, really, there's a LOT of good spells to take that will boost your combat power, and the gish part can be kept stupidly simple if you aren't trying to be "utilitarian". How about fighter 2 / sorcerer 6 / eldritch knight 10 / whatever 2? It lacks shapechange, but you still have the full bite of x spells from Spell Compendium; they are literally lycanthrope-spells that give you natural attacks, bonus stats, everything good. It's short duration, sure, but just get yourself Extend Spell and/or Persist Spell and congratulations, you're a lycanthrope with virtually no disadvantages those creatures acutally have. You're pretty good at combat (BAB at 10th level is +7), and you can cast other spells for attack/damage buffs.

Take polymorph, draconic polymorph, polymorph any object (mostly so you can change yourself into awesome stuff). Pretty much most of your spells are transmutation or abjuration, maybe some conjuration thrown in for kicks. Get Arcane Strike to burn spell slots for bonus attack/damage in combat.

I think you could make a GREAT shape-shifter gish with this idea.

Edit: Be dang sure to get divination spells to find enemies. Soon as you can cast it from a scroll you can buy, or soon as you can find a runestaff and borrow it, use permanency to get various sight-based stuff locked in.

If there is any interest in the "lycanthrope-mancer" here, I'll do up a very down-and-dirty build you guys can optimize as desired.

[WarKitty]

I have a weird suggestion to make here: make a sorcerer-based gish who goes all-in on polymorph and other transmutation spells.

No, really, there's a LOT of good spells to take that will boost your combat power, and the gish part can be kept stupidly simple if you aren't trying to be "utilitarian". How about fighter 2 / sorcerer 6 / eldritch knight 10 / whatever 2? It lacks shapechange, but you still have the full bite of x spells from Spell Compendium; they are literally lycanthrope-spells that give you natural attacks, bonus stats, everything good. It's short duration, sure, but just get yourself Extend Spell and/or Persist Spell and congratulations, you're a lycanthrope with virtually no disadvantages those creatures acutally have. You're pretty good at combat (BAB at 10th level is +7), and you can cast other spells for attack/damage buffs.

Take polymorph, draconic polymorph, polymorph any object (mostly so you can change yourself into awesome stuff). Pretty much most of your spells are transmutation or abjuration, maybe some conjuration thrown in for kicks. Get Arcane Strike to burn spell slots for bonus attack/damage in combat.

I think you could make a GREAT shape-shifter gish with this idea.

Edit: Be dang sure to get divination spells to find enemies. Soon as you can cast it from a scroll you can buy, or soon as you can find a runestaff and borrow it, use permanency to get various sight-based stuff locked in.

If there is any interest in the "lycanthrope-mancer" here, I'll do up a very down-and-dirty build you guys can optimize as desired.

The difficulty here is it's meant to be a shapeshifter that gets off to a running start, so to speak. So waiting for spells and feats like extend and persist to come online isn't an option.

[Pyromancer999]

The difficulty here is it's meant to be a shapeshifter that gets off to a running start, so to speak. So waiting for spells and feats like extend and persist to come online isn't an option.

If the build does appeal to you, you could always tack on Shapeshift Druid 1 for your 1st level and go from there. Also, Sorcerer or Wizard can turn into Medium Fiendish Spiders from 1st, and can turn into hellhounds and pseudo-dragons with 3rd level spells, so it's not unviable, although is spell-based and takes a while to reach full potential.

One build could be Tiefling Shapeshift Druid 1/Barbarian 1/Focused Specialist Transmuter UA variant Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8. Can also substitute Eldritch Knight for Knight Phantom 8, which, while having a few more prerequisites, does have more class features and a better HD. Gets you 9th level spells(including Shapechange) at 20, and +16 BAB.

Not as much of a long-term combat brute without spell reinforcement, but is viable.

[Eisfalken]

The difficulty here is it's meant to be a shapeshifter that gets off to a running start, so to speak. So waiting for spells and feats like extend and persist to come online isn't an option.

LOL, you definitely haven't read the rules. Extend comes online right at 1st; Persistent comes online soon as you have Extend, but you actually would be stupid to take it without other feats first (both for use, and to lower Persistent's hideous cost). With a human gish, feats would ideally go something like Arcane Strike, Improved Init, Extend Spell, Minor Shapeshift, whatever for the next two feats, Persistent Spell, whatever for last feat, in that order.

And you really, really, really need to read up on lycanthropes. They suck, man. They really do. The stat bonuses look sweet. But you screw up your BAB, any bonuses you'd get could be done with various polymorphing spells (since they give you the Str/Con/Dex of the new form), and you still have LA to buyoff, meaning you still are lagging behind a straight melee build.

If you just can not get over the notion of playing a lycanthrope, you either better build to take full advantage of Str buffs (PA, charging, tripping, etc.), or you better take a wererat or something equally crappy that doesn't screw up your class advancement so much (and forget taking rogue; any level-equal rogue beats a wererat after a certain point, due to higher sneak attack).

Look, I'm not saying you have to be "optimized" here, but Jesus, lycanthropy really is a kind of a curse here. I wouldn't go for it, but I done said my peace on the subject. Good luck and godspeed.

[WarKitty]

LOL, you definitely haven't read the rules. Extend comes online right at 1st; Persistent comes online soon as you have Extend, but you actually would be stupid to take it without other feats first (both for use, and to lower Persistent's hideous cost). With a human gish, feats would ideally go something like Arcane Strike, Improved Init, Extend Spell, Minor Shapeshift, whatever for the next two feats, Persistent Spell, whatever for last feat, in that order.

And you really, really, really need to read up on lycanthropes. They suck, man. They really do. The stat bonuses look sweet. But you screw up your BAB, any bonuses you'd get could be done with various polymorphing spells (since they give you the Str/Con/Dex of the new form), and you still have LA to buyoff, meaning you still are lagging behind a straight melee build.

If you just can not get over the notion of playing a lycanthrope, you either better build to take full advantage of Str buffs (PA, charging, tripping, etc.), or you better take a wererat or something equally crappy that doesn't screw up your class advancement so much (and forget taking rogue; any level-equal rogue beats a wererat after a certain point, due to higher sneak attack).

Look, I'm not saying you have to be "optimized" here, but Jesus, lycanthropy really is a kind of a curse here. I wouldn't go for it, but I done said my peace on the subject. Good luck and godspeed.

You have noticed that lycanthropes haven't been mentioned once in this thread before you brought them up? Certainly not by me. I was building based on shapeshift druid predator form, personally.

Also, you may be able to take extend spell at level 1, but it's not really any good until you have the spells and spell slots to really use it on. You can't even use it on a first level spell at first level without a metamagic reducer. Also there's the fact that you're quite limited in how long you can use spells at level 1, which makes them rather iffy for a melee character.

[Pyromancer999]

You have noticed that lycanthropes haven't been mentioned once in this thread before you brought them up? Certainly not by me. I was building based on shapeshift druid predator form, personally.

Also, you may be able to take extend spell at level 1, but it's not really any good until you have the spells and spell slots to really use it on. You can't even use it on a first level spell at first level without a metamagic reducer. Also there's the fact that you're quite limited in how long you can use spells at level 1, which makes them rather iffy for a melee character.

At this point, you more or less know what your final build will be. If you want to go Primeval and Fist of the Forest and the Pugilist Fighter is allowed, you could go Shapeshift Druid 1/Barbarian 1/ Pugilist 2(gets you all FotF prereq feats + Endurance for Primeval)/Ranger 1/Warshaper 4/FotF 1/Primeval 10. Feats would probably be Sacred Vow(1st), Vow of Poverty(3rd), one of the two remaining prerequisite feats for Primeval for 6 and 9, and whatever you want after that.

Otherwise, could go Shapeshift Druid 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2(or Pugilist Fighter 2 to knock out FotF prereqs)/Ranger 1(or Battledancer 1 for 1 BAB, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Cha to unarmored AC)/Warshaper 4/FotF 3/X 8. X can be pretty much anything full BAB, and I've made suggestions of multiple of those over the course of the thread, so between that and your existing knowledge of such classes, you should be good to go whatever route you want with that.

[WarKitty]

Eh, I'm not that fond of primeval honestly. I'd prefer something that builds on existing abilities instead of adding new shapeshift forms, the way warshaper does. Although if I'm taking VoP I'm not opposed to a magic class just to replace some of the lost stuff. If I'm not doing that, I'd probably just take a ToB class to fill out.

[Pyromancer999]

Eh, I'm not that fond of primeval honestly. I'd prefer something that builds on existing abilities instead of adding new shapeshift forms, the way warshaper does. Although if I'm taking VoP I'm not opposed to a magic class just to replace some of the lost stuff. If I'm not doing that, I'd probably just take a ToB class to fill out.

Sound practice. If you don't mind more Druid, you can always take it to 10(potentially by swapping out a ranger level in the second build listed above, which also builds your shapeshifting with animals to the max.

If you decide to go Arcane for magic, Transmuter Wizard(especially when using focused specialist) can do good things. Sorcerer can also be good if you want your arcane spellcasting to be less complicated, but end on Abjurant Champion 5 to both be able to use your BAB as your caster level and also keep up your hit points and BAB. X 8 in the build above could be Sorcerer or Wiz 3/Abjurant Champion 5. Both end up with 4th level arcane spells.

For Tome of Battle, Warblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) focusing on Tiger Claw discipline would be most synergistic and simple, plus gets you full BAB and a d12 HD.

[MilleniaAntares]

If you don't mind Pathfinder content, Dreamscarred Press has Lords of the Wild (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479603-Dreamscarred-Press-Introduces-Lords-of-the-Wild-The-Playtest!), which includes Shifting feats to better improve bestial traits.