A Request For Playtesters: Sorrow's Vassal (A Fighter Archetype)

[PapaQuackers]

Hey guys, I've made this Fighter Archetype that needs a bit of playtesting as I won't have an opportunity to do so any time in the future. So if you're interested just leave a message in this thread and comeback and update when you've given it a shot!

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Sybc66-OC

Thanks in advance~

[Axorfett12]

A quick note: I love the flavor of this, but the implementation could use a little work. The two things that stand out to me are wording and penalties.

Wording:
Your wording is a little off. Not a lot, but enough that reading through it I had to read twice to fully understand. Case in point the stones and sorrow points. Take a look through the players handbook and try to match wording and/or phrasing. Should greatly improve the ease of access of the reader.

Penalties:
When reading through the class, I noticed a theme of penalties. All weapons are treated as heavy, reducing attack rolls based ok the number of sorrow points accumulated, etc. While mechanics such as this were prevalent in 3.5, 5e actively shys away from them. You'll notice that races no longer subtract from ability scores, and all class abilities are useful, rather than detrimental. I would consider reworking the mechanics of sorrow points to not give penalties, and adding a new additional rider to the 18th level ability.

[PapaQuackers]

I was going for more of a trade off effect, if I remove the penalties from sorrow points it will seriously destabilize the archetype.

[Kryx]

Homebrew Design (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design)

[djreynolds]

I like it, but I kinda feel this would be better as a ranger or barbarian almost.

The ranger is out for revenge almost and the barbarian rage is out of grief.

[CaptainSarathai]

1) Wrack

2) I don't understand the Stones concept. You gain Sorrow Points, but what are the stones? Do Sorrow Points become Stones which allow access to the higher level powers? So if I have 3 Sorrow Points, I can use the 3 Stones ability?
I gain a Sorrow Point every time I target an enemy with an Action? So, attack = +1 Sorrow?
And then next turn, I lose one Sorrow? Certain abilities give me several turns' worth of Sorrow then, and no way to get that total back down unless I just don't attack.
Does Sorrow reset to zero on a short rest?

3) It feels weak, over all. Yeah, even without Attack Actions throwing Sorrow - just being able to use the abilities at will, thus generating Sorrow, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, you might mildly inconvenience an opponent, but you're smashing yourself with the stacking -1s, you're taking yourself out of the fight just as much as them.

4) The OP.
Yeah, I said it. But I said the class was weak right? Yeah. I have no intention of using the Sorrow abilities. I don't want more -1's than I need.
But every weapon counting as Heavy? I can now take Duellist fighting style, have a dagger, and qualify for the Great Weapon Master feat's extra damage. So, -5 to hit, +12 to damage, with a shield. If I were taking a Level Dip in Fighter for Con or Armor proficiency already, I might consider going all the way to 3 levels in this for fhat effect alone, which makes Action Surge look like icing.
Sure, it makes this a terrible class for Gnomes and Halflings, but hey - it's not like they're ever sad anyway, right? Right?
--

It really needs a little polish. I like the idea of having a sort of resource management system built into the class. It almost feels like this would make a really good Warlock Pact or a Wizard school. In the past I remember there being a Blood Magic user who would inflict HP damage upon themselves to fuel spells, and another class that seemed to use incoming damage to fuel their spells?
I could see something like that working with this, but I'm not sure if anyone would appreciate the potential for that sort of bookkeeping slowing down play at a 5e table.

[djreynolds]

CaptainSarathai I like it.

The OP could be a barbarian, and while raging instead of taking half damage, he takes full damage, but he adds half of the damage taken to his rage bonus.

[PapaQuackers]

1) Wrack

2) I don't understand the Stones concept. You gain Sorrow Points, but what are the stones? Do Sorrow Points become Stones which allow access to the higher level powers? So if I have 3 Sorrow Points, I can use the 3 Stones ability?
I gain a Sorrow Point every time I target an enemy with an Action? So, attack = +1 Sorrow?
And then next turn, I lose one Sorrow? Certain abilities give me several turns' worth of Sorrow then, and no way to get that total back down unless I just don't attack.
Does Sorrow reset to zero on a short rest?

3) It feels weak, over all. Yeah, even without Attack Actions throwing Sorrow - just being able to use the abilities at will, thus generating Sorrow, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, you might mildly inconvenience an opponent, but you're smashing yourself with the stacking -1s, you're taking yourself out of the fight just as much as them.

4) The OP.
Yeah, I said it. But I said the class was weak right? Yeah. I have no intention of using the Sorrow abilities. I don't want more -1's than I need.
But every weapon counting as Heavy? I can now take Duellist fighting style, have a dagger, and qualify for the Great Weapon Master feat's extra damage. So, -5 to hit, +12 to damage, with a shield. If I were taking a Level Dip in Fighter for Con or Armor proficiency already, I might consider going all the way to 3 levels in this for fhat effect alone, which makes Action Surge look like icing.
Sure, it makes this a terrible class for Gnomes and Halflings, but hey - it's not like they're ever sad anyway, right? Right?
--

It really needs a little polish. I like the idea of having a sort of resource management system built into the class. It almost feels like this would make a really good Warlock Pact or a Wizard school. In the past I remember there being a Blood Magic user who would inflict HP damage upon themselves to fuel spells, and another class that seemed to use incoming damage to fuel their spells?
I could see something like that working with this, but I'm not sure if anyone would appreciate the potential for that sort of bookkeeping slowing down play at a 5e table.

Uh, I'm not really sure how youre confused about the stones. As an action you can use any of those three actions and each one gives you a number of sorrow points. It's pretty clear.

As for a heavy dagger and a shield the dagger loses the light and finesse property so good luck with your strength based shield rogue.

[CaptainSarathai]

Uh, I'm not really sure how youre confused about the stones. As an action you can use any of those three actions and each one gives you a number of sorrow points. It's pretty clear.
Don't know, probably the same way this guy did:

Wording:
Your wording is a little off. Not a lot, but enough that reading through it I had to read twice to fully understand. Case in point the stones and sorrow points. Take a look through the players handbook and try to match wording and/or phrasing. Should greatly improve the ease of access of the reader.

But anyhow, if the only time you accumulate Sorrow is when you hammer someone with the effects, then I'm still not entirely sold here. Like I said - good idea, but we need to figure out a better implementation. I would *definitely* require a succesful melee attack as part of the action, kinda like Booming Blade. So it replaces the standard 'Extra Attack' stuff, and instead deals the modifiers.
I say that because, as-is, the class is very similar to the issue you see with Warlocks and Sorcerers - the best part of the class is right up front, and then usefulness of the abilities tapers off as you go on. It's not that the later abilities are bad or weak, but that the first ability could just be that good. It's especially true with the Stones, because nothing about them makes then better on a Fighter than say, a Bard, or Warlock, or whatever.
Going just high enough to hit level 3 with this class gives you:
Con Save prof.
All Weapons and Armor proficiency
Fighting Style
Second Wind
Action Surge
3, At Will, Spell-Like Abilities scaling off your Character Level
The only 1-handed Heavy weapons in game
Versatile Simple Weapons with D10 for damage (for those MCing after 1st)

That's a Bard or Wizard's wet dream right there. Anyone who doesn't need to roll 'To Hit' with their spells, or anyone with a solid 'To Hit' bonus on their attacks is gonna want a piece of that action.


As for a heavy dagger and a shield the dagger loses the light and finesse property so good luck with your strength based shield rogue.
Rogue? I'm starting in Fighter, whatever class I take. Why wouldn't you, for the Armor and Weapon profs. alone? So I don't need to use a dagger at all, I'm just pointing out how absurd it is that you could do that with basically a butter knife because
"The weight of my sorrow hangs heavy on my limbs"
I don't need Dex either, with the Armor Proficiency, unless I want to be sneaky or whatever. Circle back to Bard, Warlock, or any Elf or Half Elf with access to a Cantrip - you could get Cha or Int to Hit and Damage via Shillelagh. I don't even need Strength.

Nah, if I wanted to break this wide open, I'd go Fighter3/BarbarianX, actually. Then I'd take 2 Weapon Fighting Style and the Dual Wielder feat. Nothing says 'Heavy' requires two hands.
It's almost just icing on the cake, the fact that Stones don't count as Spells, and therefore I could throw them while Raging.

It's your homebrew, and if you like the class and can trust that you/player won't abuse it, then go for it. I actually like the idea and the direction of the mechanics - I just think that the balance is out of whack.

[PapaQuackers]

Don't know, probably the same way this guy did:


But anyhow, if the only time you accumulate Sorrow is when you hammer someone with the effects, then I'm still not entirely sold here. Like I said - good idea, but we need to figure out a better implementation. I would *definitely* require a succesful melee attack as part of the action, kinda like Booming Blade. So it replaces the standard 'Extra Attack' stuff, and instead deals the modifiers.
I say that because, as-is, the class is very similar to the issue you see with Warlocks and Sorcerers - the best part of the class is right up front, and then usefulness of the abilities tapers off as you go on. It's not that the later abilities are bad or weak, but that the first ability could just be that good. It's especially true with the Stones, because nothing about them makes then better on a Fighter than say, a Bard, or Warlock, or whatever.
Going just high enough to hit level 3 with this class gives you:
Con Save prof.
All Weapons and Armor proficiency
Fighting Style
Second Wind
Action Surge
3, At Will, Spell-Like Abilities scaling off your Character Level
The only 1-handed Heavy weapons in game
Versatile Simple Weapons with D10 for damage (for those MCing after 1st)

That's a Bard or Wizard's wet dream right there. Anyone who doesn't need to roll 'To Hit' with their spells, or anyone with a solid 'To Hit' bonus on their attacks is gonna want a piece of that action.


Rogue? I'm starting in Fighter, whatever class I take. Why wouldn't you, for the Armor and Weapon profs. alone? So I don't need to use a dagger at all, I'm just pointing out how absurd it is that you could do that with basically a butter knife because
"The weight of my sorrow hangs heavy on my limbs"
I don't need Dex either, with the Armor Proficiency, unless I want to be sneaky or whatever. Circle back to Bard, Warlock, or any Elf or Half Elf with access to a Cantrip - you could get Cha or Int to Hit and Damage via Shillelagh. I don't even need Strength.

Nah, if I wanted to break this wide open, I'd go Fighter3/BarbarianX, actually. Then I'd take 2 Weapon Fighting Style and the Dual Wielder feat. Nothing says 'Heavy' requires two hands.
It's almost just icing on the cake, the fact that Stones don't count as Spells, and therefore I could throw them while Raging.

It's your homebrew, and if you like the class and can trust that you/player won't abuse it, then go for it. I actually like the idea and the direction of the mechanics - I just think that the balance is out of whack.

I'm willing to strengthen the sorrow point actions but tying them to attacks generates a problem with the action economy in a lot of cases. If i can attack and inflict an at will effect why would I ever attack? Ill think more on it.


As for the heavy weapon thing, two handed wielding lets you up your weapon damage by an average of one and CANNOT dual wield weapons that aren't light. You can never dual wield if you take three levels with this class, even with the dual wielder feat.


EDIT: Im sorry if that came off as rude im abit tired and grumpy

If you mean make it like a melee spell attack im on board.

[Axorfett12]

As for the heavy weapon thing, two handed wielding lets you up your weapon damage by an average of one and CANNOT dual wield weapons that aren't light. You can never dual wield if you take three levels with this class, even with the dual wielder feat.

The dual wielder feat specifically allows you dual wield weapons that are not light. The heavy property only makes it so small size characters will never take this archetype.

[PapaQuackers]

Id thought that it only let you wield a heavy in the main hand and an off in the light. I will admit to not having the phb right in front of me.

Still to get the advantage purposed you'd still require a two feat investment.

Ill do some more math in the subject to see if it needs another tweaking.


Thanks for the feedback.

[PapaQuackers]

Ok, I've made some changes to the Stone abilities, cleaned up some wording, and altered the 3rd level ability so it fits more in line with what I was actually going for.

No more dual wielding shenanigans and you'll definitely feel the weight of your sorrows.