Miko's afterlife?

[Charles Phipps]

So, where do you think she ended up?

Personally, I find it horrible to think that Lord Shojo can lie and cheat his way through life...including raising a little girl to become a murderous killing machine....yet go to Heaven.

And Miko can die defending a city only to be damned for killing said man.

[Scarab83]

Welcome to 10 comics ago.

[BRC]

Well we don't know where Shojo and Miko are

[Pronounceable]

I have to do this...


The horse is dead. It's passed on. This horse is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet it's maker. This is a late horse. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If folks hadn't kept beating it to bloody pulp it would be pushing up the daisies. It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!

[BRC]

The horse is dead. It's passed on. This horse is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet it's maker. This is a late horse. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If folks hadn't kept beating it to bloody pulp it would be pushing up the daisies. It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-horse.
You sir, recieve ten (10) Points

[Pronounceable]

Well, I didn't expect the Ten (10) Points...


Actually I was expecting something more tangible, like a cookie.

I was wishing that someone would start a Miko thread just that I could post that.

[BRC]

Well, I didn't expect the Ten (10) Points...


Actually I was expecting something more tangible, like a cookie.

I was wishing that someone would start a Miko thread just that I could post that.

The points can be traded in for fabulous prizes, a cookie is among them

[Ithekro]

To answer the question: It was deturmined that Miko is likely in a lesser Lawful Good afterlife while Shojo is on a Chaotic Good afterlife.

Miko's is based on Soon telling her Windstriker could visit her when he was able, and that the paladins would escort her to her destination. Dead paladins and Celestial horses are reportedly not able to travel to the lower planes and Windstriker is probably only able to visit Lawful Good planes when not being used by a paladin on Earth-like world.

Shojo's is based on Belkar's assessment of why Shojo was not raised from the dead.

[Alfryd]

I had a sort of vague image of Miko's housewarming commitee.

Spokesman: "Welcome, new arrivals, to Arcadia! Tours begin at precise hourly intervals and run for 7 minutes and 15 seconds. You will find cheese and wine in the lobby, feel free to refresh yourselves for a total value of up to 800 calories, (excluding saturated fats but including complex carbohydrates...)"

Miko: "Self-indulgence, vice and luxury will only lead down a path of ruin and destru...
...on second thoughts, pass the cheddar.
So... Do you smite much evil?"

[mockingbyrd7]

The points can be traded in for fabulous prizes, a cookie is among them

What are the other prizes?

[Scarab83]

What are the other prizes?

Some penny candy (5 points each), a plastic comb (15 points), or a 5 dollar AM/FM radio (5,000 points).

[BRC]

What are the other prizes?
Other Prizes include, an autographed insult, a brownie, and a mr scruffy doll (the ruler of Azure City! Now in plush form!)
Also, the prizes listed above

[Yeril]

With a 70 Silver peice donation to the save a paladin fund you get a Free Authentic Miko Miyazaki Doll, comes in three styles, Paladin, Fallen and Blackgaurd*!


See sig for details

[BRC]

With a 70 Silver peice donation to the save a paladin fund you get a Free Authentic Miko Miyazaki Doll, comes in three styles, Paladin, Fallen and Blackgaurd*!


See sig for details

Collect the whole set!
Shojo doll will Hinge to simulate post-miko Shojo coming soon!

[Ozymandias]

I have to do this...
The horse is dead. It's passed on. This horse is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet it's maker. This is a late horse. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If folks hadn't kept beating it to bloody pulp it would be pushing up the daisies. It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!

Hold on!

Isn't it better to beat a dead horse than a live one?

I mean, it's already dead; if you beat a live horse, you could break its leg or something, and then you'd have to shoot it, and then you would have two dead horses. And no one wants that, right?

[Pronounceable]

I'd much prefer if nobody beat ANY horses, dead or otherwise.


And now for something completely different:
Behold the power of quotes! Such an innocent little piece of rant managed to derail a potentially monstrous Miko thread.

[Talyn]

But, but... I actually really like the Miko threads!

*ahem* Therefore, back to the topic raised by the OP - in the "traditional" D&D cosmology, Miko would probably end up going to the plane for people who are really Lawful and a little bit Good, which is, as was mentioned earlier, Arcadia, which seems like a really nice place, though slightly boring.

Now, in Miko's conversation with Soon, it can be implied that if she had died a paladin, she'd be able to go to some sort of special, Sapphire Guard-only aspect of heaven. Perhaps she'd get an immediate promotion to some sort of guardian angel - who knows? But, because she fell, she is no longer "on the list" and she'll be like every other recently-deceased soul. That she could, conceivably, run into Roy while deceased is entirely possible - perhaps even in some sort of queue, waiting to be processed into Lawful Good heaven.

Oh man, I hope I didn't just jinx that out of existence, because, seriously, I would LOVE to read that strip. But, I'm also an unapologetic Miko fan, so anything that brings her back for a bit would be top-notch in my book.

...well, so long as she isn't brought back to be abused metaphorically by some anti-paladin Voice of the Plot, because that would bug me. But I don't think that the Giant is truly as anti-paladin as some people say, so I doubt that would happen.

[mockingbyrd7]

I have to do this...


The horse is dead. It's passed on. This horse is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet it's maker. This is a late horse. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If folks hadn't kept beating it to bloody pulp it would be pushing up the daisies. It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!

An ex-horse? A fallen horse, eh? Maybe it will become a blackguardhorse? *gasp* WINDSTRIKER IS THE DEAD HORSE! OF COURSE! And it will rise as a nightmare and Miko the blackguard will ride Windstriker the nightmare blackguardhorse into the night and eat the Snarl! It all makes sense now!

[Kreistor]

Let's see... lying in order to save people's lives and livelihoods vs. murder based on faulty conclusions and self-centered egotism. Hrm... yeah, the liar clearly is the worse of the two.

According to Dante's Inferno, Ninth Circle, Zone 4 is reserved for traitors to their lords and benefactors. Miko definitely killed her lord, and for clearly false reasons which the gods definitely judged her for. (Actually, she betrayed her next lord, Hinjo, only minutes later, reversing her weapon and cutting him while he bore no weapon. So, she gets this one twice over.) That puts her pretty far down there. In fact, it's so far down you can't get down any further.

Yeah, yeah, this is DnD not the Inferno. Where she goes depends on her alignment. And that is a huge argument that you and I have already had, Charles. So, to prevent that argument, let me just say that I judge Miko's alignment well over into the Chaotic Evil side of things at the moment of her death, which means I put her in whatever you want to call that plane.

[David Argall]

According to Dante's Inferno,
irrelevant source for our purposes.


Miko definitely killed her lord,
He was no longer her lord, merely another criminal. He had forfeited all right to her respect or obedience.


cutting him while he bore no weapon.
He quite obviously did have a, and perhaps several weapons at that time.


I judge Miko's alignment well over into the Chaotic Evil side of things at the moment of her death, which means I put her in whatever you want to call that plane.
Soon's judgement is much more relevant, and he clearly would not be associating with an evil Miko. And his description of her behavior as "adequate" can hardly be viewed as anything but calling her overall behavior LG. Virtually anything else is by LG definition not adequate.

[Scarab83]

Don't turn this into a Miko thread, please. As tempting as it is.. the forum just purged the last of them, I don't think it can handle another so soon.

[Ithekro]

Odd, since this is clearly a Miko thread even from the title of the thread itself.

That said, I will stand by what I said, as those are the last pieces of evidence we have from any individual that might have any reasonable knowledge within the comic world as to how things work, and who goes where.

[Albub]

irrelevant source for our purposes.

He stated that in his post Mr. "I like to be argumentative for attention"


He was no longer her lord, merely another criminal. He had forfeited all right to her respect or obedience.


No in Miko's head he was a criminal, but Miko has the logic and reasoning skills of a backhoe.



He quite obviously did have a, and perhaps several weapons at that time.

yeah, on him. You'll note the choice of words, or maybe your mind is so closed words aren't necessary for you to read because any words you didn't write are clearly wrong. At any rate, Bore, or it's present tense, bear, means to hold in your hands, wield, etc. with an intent of use.



Soon's judgement is much more relevant, and he clearly would not be associating with an evil Miko. And his description of her behavior as "adequate" can hardly be viewed as anything but calling her overall behavior LG. Virtually anything else is by LG definition not adequate.

No in YOUR opinion it cannot be viewed as anything else. But you see, we have different, more better opinions, because they're ours, not some silly attention seeking Miko fan's. You'd make her awful proud though, listening to no logic but your own, not entitling others to their own opinion, and in general attention seeking closed mindedness that simply reeks of Miko Miyazaki.

[Scarab83]

Odd, since this is clearly a Miko thread even from the title of the thread itself.

That said, I will stand by what I said, as those are the last pieces of evidence we have from any individual that might have any reasonable knowledge within the comic world as to how things work, and who goes where.

That wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the quote whores who like to spend 5 pages bickering back and forth without any real purpose in mind other than arguing.

[The Duskblade]

Ok lets look at the two cases.

Shojo: Ok yes he lied and cheated. When you have people wanting to see you dead and a supply of Ninjas to throw at you your Self preservation instincts should start to kick in. especially if you cant hold your own in combat. Someone who does not act in the manner you would like is not always in the wrong. Take for example Shojo did the lawful thing and didn't hire the OOTS. The world is basically screwed. royally screwed. In this case the law is in the wrong and chaos is in the right. A good person should not be damned because they disagree with certain rules.

Miko: Basically she went nuts. She suffers from the flaw that she cant see that a different view of things is not necessarily wrong. Her lord not Meeting her expectations, she made one of her little jumps to conclusions. She cannot see that Chaos does not equal evil.

The fact is Miko could not except her being wrong. So her mind formed reasons for her fall. Things like the damaged bars furthering her thought process. Personally I think it took Soon's talk to her to finally convince her that she was wrong. In my opinion I think that this tipped her back over the edge and into one of the good afterlives.


Note: This is all my opinion feel free to disagree if you wish.

[Alfryd]

With a 70 Silver peice donation to the save a paladin fund you get a Free Authentic Miko Miyazaki Doll, comes in three styles, Paladin, Fallen and Blackgaurd*!
I'll take 'em all!

You forgot Sultry Vampire Miko, Death Knight Miko, Reincarnated Half-elf Miko, and Cyborg Inevitable Miko.


Behold the power of quotes! Such an innocent little piece of rant managed to derail a potentially monstrous Miko thread.

But, I'm also an unapologetic Miko fan, so anything that brings her back for a bit would be top-notch in my book.

Don't turn this into a Miko thread, please. ...quote whores who like to spend 5 pages bickering back and forth without any real purpose in mind other than arguing.
The Angel of Death shall not be denied! The scent of emnity and discord is an odour pleasing to the Undying One.


let me just say that I judge Miko's alignment well over into the Chaotic Evil side of things at the moment of her death...
Whoaaa thar silver. While that may well have been her trajectory, we know for a fact she must have been Lawful Good right up to the moment she smote her Liege Lord (twice,) so it seems unlikely she could have shifted two entire alignments during the intervening 36 hours or so.

He quite obviously did have a, and perhaps several weapons at that time.
Yeah, but he didn't have any drawn. He wasn't threatening directly. On the contrary.

...in Miko's head he was a criminal...
Hinjo appeared to share that assessment, even if Miko's reaction was distinctly OTT.

No in YOUR opinion it cannot be viewed as anything else.
I think, in all fairness, offering to escort Miko to her final destination can only reasonably be viewed as a form of association. LG, LN, and TN I can all believe, but CE is highly implausible.


Note: This is all my opinion feel free to disagree if you wish.
Rant.
Yeah, this is one of the things that really irrates me about people who say 'that's just your opinion.' Of COURSE it's just my opinion, everything I say is automatically an opniion. This doesn't mean it won't have a strong correlation with facts.
And of COURSE you're free to disagree. That's a given.
Addendums and Caveats to this effect are a waste of bandwidth for all concerned, IMHO. (Just like IMHO.) Redundant information.
Note- this is nothing personal against you. In fact, I largely agreed with the assessment given.

[Demented]

I'll take 'em all!

You forgot Sultry Vampire Miko, Death Knight Miko, Reincarnated Half-elf Miko, and Cyborg Inevitable Miko.

Sadly, Hasbro hasn't confirmed the deal yet, so we aren't ready to release the franchise spin-offs. I hear there's a negotiation in the works for Miko Barbie™, but they're worried it might conflict commercially with Azure City Barbie™ and Paladin Barbie™.

There are also some issues with certain members of marketing who insist on an anatomically-correct version—wire legs and arms just can't support the weight of a concrete head. There are also concerns about safety for goblin toddlers.

[Dervag]

There are also some issues with certain members of marketing who insist on an anatomically-correct version—wire legs and arms just can't support the weight of a concrete head. There are also concerns about safety for goblin toddlers.Yes, especially since Miko dolls practically have to come with built in detect-evil-sensitive stabbing action.


So, where do you think she ended up?

Personally, I find it horrible to think that Lord Shojo can lie and cheat his way through life...including raising a little girl to become a murderous killing machine....yet go to Heaven.Did he?

He isn't Lawful Good, remember? So he'd go to a different plane in the afterlife. Since I truly doubt that he was actively evil, he's probably on Mechanus right now, or on some Oriental-themed Lawful Neutral plane. Maybe he just got a job as a clerk in the Celestial Bureaucracy or something.


And Miko can die defending a city only to be damned for killing said man.Who says she's damned?

She's a fallen paladin. That doesn't mean she's actually evil; her evil act was the product of delusions. Soon specifically says that yes, she will "get to see Windstriker again." Since Windstriker resides on the upper planes, that would require her to go to some form of paradise suitable for the delusionally self-righteous but well intentioned.


THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!Yes, which is why I am now discussing its afterlife of the dead (or extraplanar) horse.


According to Dante's Inferno, Ninth Circle, Zone 4 is reserved for traitors to their lords and benefactors.Yes, but Dante was writing in the cultural context of Renaissance Italy. Feudal and post-feudal Europe had a really big thing about obeying your lord and/or benefactor.

That doesn't mean that the Twelve Gods feel the same way about things. The evidence suggests that Miko goes to one of the upper planes, where Windstriker can visit her.

[Daimbert]

He stated that in his post Mr. "I like to be argumentative for attention".

Actually, it seems to me that bringing in an utterly irrelevant source -- Dante's Inferno, in this case -- is more a symptom of being argumentative for attention than pointing that out, even if the original poster mentions it later in the post. But let's not beat the dead horse here (poor Windstriker [grin]) and merely assume that those are discussion points and leave it at that.

(I like discussion points. They taste delicious lightly brushed with nutmeg.)

Well, okay, I'll beat it a bit more. Is Miko a traitor? Well, think about this for an instant: being a traitor is NOT betraying one's lord, necessarily. Miko clearly loved her city, and attacked Shojo for betraying it to the hobgoblins. Thus she was true to her city (she believed; more on intentions later) and attacked her liege lord. It could be argued that in her mind to NOT attack Shojo would be treason against her city. She was WRONG, of course, but that appears to be how she saw it.



No in Miko's head he was a criminal, but Miko has the logic and reasoning skills of a backhoe.


But this is a discussion over alignment, which is what determines the afterlife in DnD. And it seems to me that intent rather than consequences determines alignment (paladinship doesn't seem to be that way, but they seem to expect perfection and so a perfect paladin should be able to avoid doing anything wrong [grin]). An evil character doesn't become good if you fool -- or force, see Belkar on the wall -- them into doing something good, and a good party doesn't become evil if they are fooled into doing something evil -- or even accidently do it, see Elan in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

So what are Miko's intentions here? Generally -- except for perhaps the final strike on Hinjo -- they're Good. But she doesn't realize that being good is about caring for people, not about doing her interpretation of the Will of the Gods. And they're generally Lawful, since they're her interpretation of what the gods want her to do. The problem with that is the problem of the religious fanatic; the gods are NEVER precise and clear about what they want, nor do they stop people from doing the wrong thing, and so one can justify almost any action by appealing to them (which Roy very neatly parodies in the fight scene with her with the "We're out of milk" line).

So it seems to me that she's Lawful Good, but not really able to understand how one should REALLY act as a Lawful Good person. And she's judgemental to the extent that once she makes up her mind as to how things should be nothing will sway her, but she's always willing to jump in without getting all the facts because she thinks that the gods make everything crystal clear.

And BTW, I'm aware that an intentionalist approach to alignment -- I want to do good but don't know any better -- leads to ridiculous cases where a stupid character can do evil and claim that they are still good because they don't know any better, but in any intentionalist stance there is always a notion that if you never take the time to learn any better or gather more information you aren't doing good by default. In the case of the stupid person, if you know that you generally can't decide what is right or what is wrong it seems that to remain good you should attach yourself to someone who CAN and ask them what to do.



yeah, on him. You'll note the choice of words, or maybe your mind is so closed words aren't necessary for you to read because any words you didn't write are clearly wrong. At any rate, Bore, or it's present tense, bear, means to hold in your hands, wield, etc. with an intent of use.


You've never watched fantasy movies where the hero or villain slips their dagger out of even boot sheaths in an instant to kill or attack? [grin].

Seriously, the unarmed thing isn't the real issue here. The attempting to kill Hinjo for no particularly "Good" reason is.



No in YOUR opinion it cannot be viewed as anything else. But you see, we have different, more better opinions, because they're ours, not some silly attention seeking Miko fan's. You'd make her awful proud though, listening to no logic but your own, not entitling others to their own opinion, and in general attention seeking closed mindedness that simply reeks of Miko Miyazaki.

Because obviously the only valid opinions on this topic are opinions from those who are Miko haters, right [grin]? Okay, okay, overstated ... but I hope you get my point that your comment above may not say what you mean it to say. If it does, well, then, never mind [grin].

Okay, since a profession of faith seems to be required for these threads, let me state that I am a Miko fan. I think that Roy's defenses of her when he was still thinking with his "Trouser Titan" are valid. She's overly judgemental and sanctimonious, but it wasn't just her fault that she ended up that way. Who made her the top paladin without ensuring that she understood that being a paladin and being good means more than killing things that are evil as quickly and efficiently as possible? Who soothed her tears when she was a child by making it a part of her very self-image that she was special to the gods? You don't build a sanctimonious, self-centered person and then gripe when they act that way.

[Daimbert]

Did he?

He isn't Lawful Good, remember? So he'd go to a different plane in the afterlife. Since I truly doubt that he was actively evil, he's probably on Mechanus right now, or on some Oriental-themed Lawful Neutral plane. Maybe he just got a job as a clerk in the Celestial Bureaucracy or something.


He's actually probably Good ... but not Lawful. He clearly felt no need to follow the laws in doing Good and Belkar calls him Chaotic Good.

[Hranat]

Miko won't go to hell because she killed Shojo...

It doesn't matter if others think your actions are evil, it matters if your heart is pure... your afterlife is based on your alignment. Her actions were still based on LG alignment... and the gods (and Soon) could see that she was always trying to do the best thing.

[Callista]

I wonder: Is it possible for Miko, given time to think and (presumably) relaxation and a decent environment in the afterlife, might build on the revelations she had when Soon spoke to her? Could her friendship with Windstriker help her understand how to see things from others' persepctives, now that they're not constantly campaigning together?

And, if so, might she one day be the person she might have been, if she hadn't had the troubles she did have in life?

Maybe that's what a Good-aligned afterlife does to people. But if Roy's dad is any indication, it probably takes a while...

[David Argall]

in Miko's head he was a criminal, but Miko has the logic and reasoning skills of a backhoe.
a-He was also criminal in Hinjo's view, and apparently in Belkar's and Shoto's view [As a proper CG, Shoto saw nothing wrong with being a criminal, just in hurting people.]

b-Miko should not be compared to a backhoe. A backhoe is very good in digging deep into a subject and exposing things. Miko was more like a race car, going directly and rapidly to the point [and with somewhat messy results when it was the wrong point.]


yeah, on him. You'll note the choice of words, or maybe your mind is so closed words aren't necessary for you to read because any words you didn't write are clearly wrong. At any rate, Bore, or it's present tense, bear, means to hold in your hands, wield, etc. with an intent of use.
Bore or bear has a much wider meaning than wield. Wield means weapon ready for action. Bear essentially means to carry, which can mean in a ready or very unready condition. I bear arms when I have a gun in a holster. I wield it when it is in my hand. Hinjo was bearing arms at that time. He merely was not wielding them.

But this seems typical of the anti-Miko case. It is full of prosecutors eager to twist every fact to give it an anti-Miko meaning. Instead of seeing someone out of control, one who has "lost it", to quote Hinjo, they must find an actual desire to do evil, and if they can't find it, they create it.


No in YOUR opinion it cannot be viewed as anything else. But you see, we have different, more better opinions, because they're ours, not some silly attention seeking Miko fan's. You'd make her awful proud though, listening to no logic but your own, not entitling others to their own opinion, and in general attention seeking closed mindedness that simply reeks of Miko Miyazaki.
It is hardly necessary to do more than quote you to show you are the pot calling the kettle black here. Now would you care to discuss the facts? That paladins do not associate with evils, which Soon freely did with Miko, and that he, as the voice of the highest standard of LG described her behavior as adequate according to that standard. Adequate is rather faint praise, but it is still praise, and labels Miko as LG.

[Albub]

Man I'd love to discuss facts, and if you present a reasonable argument, and by all means do if you have one, I'll change my stance. I'm just going by how I see things man, as does nearly everyone. Anyone with half a personality at least.

[Midnight Lurker]

According to Dante's Inferno, Ninth Circle, Zone 4 is reserved for traitors to their lords and benefactors.


The entirety of Dante's Inferno is reserved for the ironic punishment of people whom Dante personally disliked.

[Lord_Butters_I]

Originally Posted by Kreistor
According to Dante's Inferno, Ninth Circle, Zone 4 is reserved for traitors to their lords and benefactors. And acording to Egypt's mythology the evil are eaten by the monster Ahmeit (sp?) while the good enjoyed eternal life (probibly has a name, I don't know it), acording to Babaloynian mythology all the dead went to the House of Dust, acording to Greek mythology the evil went to Tarturus while the good went to some sort of plains, forgive me but I forgot the name, in Norse mythology fallen warriors went to Asgard while those who died of sickness or old age went to Neiflhem, in Japanese mythology the dead went to Yomi, the land of gloom, and in Hindu mythology the dead are reincarnated until they become completely pure and become one with Brahman. What's your point in using Earth's mythology in a psudo-D&D world?

[TreesOfDeath]

While I feel the LN afterlife would have been more apporite, the conversation clearly hints that miko went to the LG afterlife. Deal with it

[Kreistor]

But this seems typical of the anti-Miko case. It is full of prosecutors eager to twist every fact to give it an anti-Miko meaning. Instead of seeing someone out of control, one who has "lost it", to quote Hinjo, they must find an actual desire to do evil, and if they can't find it, they create it.

Wow. Characterize others much? Make unreasonable demands much?

I am very pro-Miko. I loved her as a hubris-laden, tragic hero destined to fall deeper into evil, bourne by her ever fraying ego towards destruction. Heck, I saw that was what she was way back in 200, and was pleased to see her develop and Fall, as I had realized she would. Bu then, I knew that her role could never be allowed to outshine the PC's. In a game of DnD, the PC's must be the ones that achieve greatness. Miko threatened that and given that some never did understand that, she therefore had to go. Ironically, it was, therefore, those that David would call "pro-Miko" that killed her. By never understanding Miko's place in the story, she had to die permanently, so that the PC's could return to their rightful place as the primary characters of the story.

[Midnight Lurker]

Even if she wound up in a different Good afterlife than Windstriker (Arcadia does seem like a reasonable choice to me, it being west by northwest on the alignment compass :smalltongue: ), I can't help but think that the Upper Planes would have some kind of visiting rights program set up. They are all different flavors of good, after all, and denying (say) a deceased loving couple the opportunity to see each other for all eternity just because one of them is LG and the other NG or CG... that's not good at all, no matter which slice of the pie you're on.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I mean, it's already dead; if you beat a live horse, you could break its leg or something, and then you'd have to shoot it, and then you would have two dead horses. And no one wants that, right?

:thog: flog dead horse in stereo!

[pumpkinetics]

I mean, it's already dead; if you beat a live horse, you could break its leg or something, and then you'd have to shoot it, and then you would have two dead horses. And no one wants that, right?

Ladies and Gentlemen; Miko "Two Dead Horses" Miyazaki!"

[Daimbert]

Even if she wound up in a different Good afterlife than Windstriker (Arcadia does seem like a reasonable choice to me, it being west by northwest on the alignment compass :smalltongue: ), I can't help but think that the Upper Planes would have some kind of visiting rights program set up. They are all different flavors of good, after all, and denying (say) a deceased loving couple the opportunity to see each other for all eternity just because one of them is LG and the other NG or CG... that's not good at all, no matter which slice of the pie you're on.

Soon pretty much flat-out says that that's the case when he says that Windstriker will visit as much as he is able. This statement, BTW, is also one of the main pieces of evidence that Miko goes to a good afterlife: could or would Windstriker visit an evil afterlife? Or would she see him in an evil afterlife?

[Rare Pink Leech]

I think, in all fairness, offering to escort Miko to her final destination can only reasonably be viewed as a form of association. LG, LN, and TN I can all believe, but CE is highly implausible.

I think the "association" makes a lot of sense, logically. I peg Miko's alignment nicely within LN, which fits with what you say.


Miko won't go to hell because she killed Shojo...

It doesn't matter if others think your actions are evil, it matters if your heart is pure... your afterlife is based on your alignment. Her actions were still based on LG alignment... and the gods (and Soon) could see that she was always trying to do the best thing.

The Twelve Gods would disagree with you. Miko obviously had good intentions when she killed Shojo, yet they stripped Miko of her paladinhood. If she had continued to be LG she wouldn't have fallen.

[Garrett_Freebor]

It is preety obvious I think that Miko will end up in the prison plane of souls (Carceri, if my memory serves me right:smallconfused: )as she did a lot of acts of doubtful exaltedness(wow, that was a mouthful).Anyway, since Miko did a lot of evil acts against OOTS while aware of their good nature (she used detect evil on them at some point early in the comic), her soul is bound to end up someplace nasty.:roach:

[Daimbert]

The Twelve Gods would disagree with you. Miko obviously had good intentions when she killed Shojo, yet they stripped Miko of her paladinhood. If she had continued to be LG she wouldn't have fallen.

Now, I'm not up on the full rules for paladin class membership, but it seems to me that one evil act wouldn't change your alignment, but WOULD cause you to fall as a paladin. So there's no reason to assume that just because she fell that her alignment changed.

[Daimbert]

I am very pro-Miko. I loved her as a hubris-laden, tragic hero destined to fall deeper into evil, bourne by her ever fraying ego towards destruction. Heck, I saw that was what she was way back in 200, and was pleased to see her develop and Fall, as I had realized she would. Bu then, I knew that her role could never be allowed to outshine the PC's. In a game of DnD, the PC's must be the ones that achieve greatness. Miko threatened that and given that some never did understand that, she therefore had to go. Ironically, it was, therefore, those that David would call "pro-Miko" that killed her. By never understanding Miko's place in the story, she had to die permanently, so that the PC's could return to their rightful place as the primary characters of the story.

While I won't comment on what the Giant's plans or thoughts were on the topic, from a writing or DnD standpoint this reasoning doesn't wash. First, there's no reason that an NPC can't BECOME a PC, or vice versa; it happens all the time in campaigns (from what I've heard from the descriptions of campaigns of other people) and is parodied in "DM of the Rings" repeatedly. So if her character had developed far enough -- and she was popular enough to us, the viewers, since this is a comic as well -- to clash with the PCs making her into a PC would solve that problem. Heck, even now there's a way to do it (I'm not going to mark it as a spoiler because I don't think it spoils anything and I don't want to have to look that up [grin]): have her be resurrected and have Hinjo say that she has to make up for her crime the same way Belkar had to: by helping save the next Gate. If you care about DnD just imagine that a new player joined and the DM gave them an existing NPC since they were okay with that and didn't want to go through the trouble of creating and levelling a new character.

Second, this is also a comic based on DnD. If an NPC ends up being deeper and interesting than intended, things can be done to satisfy the readers. From a DnD standpoint it may be true that NPCs can't exceed PCs ... but in a story characters may indeed take over roles and become more than anyone would expect them to be.

And third, liking a character -- even more than the main characters -- is NEVER "not understanding [her] place in the story". We are readers; we'll like who we like no matter what the author thinks we should like. And the author is the author; he'll do what he'll do (mostly) regardless of what we think. And we are the readers; we'll gripe about what the author does no matter what reasons he has for doing it [grin].

[Wardog]

It is preety obvious I think that Miko will end up in the prison plane of souls (Carceri, if my memory serves me right:smallconfused: )as she did a lot of acts of doubtful exaltedness(wow, that was a mouthful).Anyway, since Miko did a lot of evil acts against OOTS while aware of their good nature (she used detect evil on them at some point early in the comic), her soul is bound to end up someplace nasty.:roach:

Paladins fall the moment they commit an Evil act.

If Miko had committed "a lot of evil acts" against the OOTS, she would have already fallen.

What particular "evil acts" are you thinking of?

[David Argall]

I knew that her role could never be allowed to outshine the PC's. In a game of DnD, the PC's must be the ones that achieve greatness.

As noted, this is a story, and making her one of the PCs would have been a minor task.

The Hinjo, and other, lovers should note that this theory says there are, and ever will be, the six members of the party and no replacement or additions will happen.


Miko threatened that and given that some never did understand that, she therefore had to go. Ironically, it was, therefore, those that David would call "pro-Miko" that killed her. By never understanding Miko's place in the story, she had to die permanently, so that the PC's could return to their rightful place as the primary characters of the story.

I will offer an alternate theory, one more pleasing to the anti-Miko folk. She was, in a way I can't understand or identify, a poorly written character.

Look at your typical TV comedy series. The hero is a jerk. You have to avoid asking just how he ever got married, not to mention why she is not divorcing him. How does such a loser make or keep friends? Part of the answer is often that they are just as bad, but the hero is still a jerk. And we love to watch as he does something entirely unacceptable on quite inadequate motive, only to come to grief. We watch week after week. We like the jerk.
Miko was to be such a jerk, a foil for the party to play off of. But in some way, she just created too much passion. People didn't just love to hate her, they actively hated her. Instead of enjoying watching her fall on her face, they wanted that face sliced open. So, since Miko was failing as a comedy, she was hiked up to full drama and killed off.

[Krytha]

I wonder what the afterlife entails? Will it be classic D+D several layers of infinite mountain? Completely different? And if it is several layers of infinite mountain, I wonder how that will come out in OotS style?

Yeah, I have no clue where Miko is going.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I wonder what the afterlife entails? Will it be classic D+D several layers of infinite mountain? Completely different? And if it is several layers of infinite mountain, I wonder how that will come out in OotS style?

Yeah, I have no clue where Miko is going.

That was the theory i was working under. Celestia is mentioned (as the Celestial Realm) and the DMG describes Celestia as a mountian with six zones as you go up, with the "Heavenly Kingdom" seventh layer above the mountain, and unreachable.

Paladins who DON'T kill their leige, and others who lead a LG life, and who did more than "just show up" got to go to the Celestial City at the top of the mountain, while the rest ended up lower along the mountain side. I think Miko will end up down on the docks of the Ocean of Holy Water, perhaps to gut celestial fish for dinner, or whatever more menial jobs are available...

I'm also under the impression that Windstriker will be reassigned to another paladin, but while Windstriker is in her(?) Poke'ball, she will be able to be fed and groomed by Miko. Maybe a heavenly apple, from time to time...

[mockingbyrd7]

Don't turn this into a Miko thread, please. As tempting as it is.. the forum just purged the last of them, I don't think it can handle another so soon.

not Soon, Miko.

:smallbiggrin:

[Shatteredtower]

Alfryd, I loved the cheddar-referencing Mikologue.

And that's all I'm going to say on the subject before this thread passes its fourth page. Can't whore the quotes until they've accumulated to a satisfactory level, after all. :smallwink:

[Duke Malagigi]

I never bought Shojo's statement that he was non-Lawful. Machiavelli's the Prince certainly was a Lawful book. I'd place him in Mechanus, seems like a good place for a somewhat Machiavellian old man feigning senility. Miko on the other hand should go directly to the Nine Hells. Do not pass Mechanus, do not pass Acheron and do not collect 200 gold pieces. As for which particular Hell she should go to, see below.

Wizards of the Coast Nine Hells of Baator
1. Avernus
2. Dis

Dicefreaks Nine Hells of Perdition as described in the Gates of Hell



Avernus: War, Corrupted Honor, Violence, Genocide. A place of eternal warfare, this is a layer that caters to those who believe that the violence in which they partake will lead to a utopia, when in fact their violence and evil results in tyranny and the death of those outside of the "Grand Order" of Hell. Warmongering fascists.

...

...

Phlegethos: Pain, Suffering, Physical Oppression, Fire. This is "quintessential Hell." A place of eternal suffering and torment, both physical and spiritual. It is also a place in which gross matter is tortured and oppressed for the perverse needs of those in power. This is best represented by societies in which a person has no control over his/her body; people are told what to wear, how and what to eat, and when and with whom they can mate.

Stygia: Traitors, Gluttony, Dissatisfaction, Ignorance, Water. This is a place in which no one trusts anyone because everyone perceives others as stepping stones. No one is satisfied with their station... especially because one's station is always below another's. You forget love, help, dedication, or commitment; indeed, you're ignorant of such concepts because you haven't experienced it here.

...

Maladomini: Pride. Perfection. Intrigue. Arrogance. This is a place in which not one word uttered goes unnoticed. Big Brother is everywhere because Big Brother knows how you should live your life. There is an eternal buzzing as everything you do is reported to those in command, those with the perfect plans for everyone's lives.

...

Nessus: Damnation. Power. Lost Knowledge. Tyranny. Darkness. Oppression. Here, all the lies and terrors of Hell are fermented into true Lawful Evil: Damnation. Here, there is only one power and under that power all will kneel. Here, knowledge and wisdom are hoarded by those in power for no one else is worthy to know anything. No one – save The Overlord – has the right to determine the course of anything, much less their own lives. You are fodder for Hell -- if that at all --

Which one makes the most sense for Miko in your opinion?

[Daimbert]

I never bought Shojo's statement that he was non-Lawful. Machiavelli's the Prince certainly was a Lawful book. I'd place him in Mechanus, seems like a good place for a somewhat Machiavellian old man feigning senility.

Well, think about it this way: Miko accused Sholo of writing the laws to his own benefit, but she was wrong. He didn't bother; he simply ignored the laws when he didn't want to deal with them (and could get away with it). That means that he isn't Lawful by DnD standards. I mean, come on, he fixed a trial after charging the OOTS with a crime just so that he could get them there, and released Belkar when he was clearly guilty of murder so that he could help the party save the gates. Law doesn't seem to be a big priority for him.

[Dervag]

Man I'd love to discuss facts, and if you present a reasonable argument, and by all means do if you have one, I'll change my stance. I'm just going by how I see things man, as does nearly everyone. Anyone with half a personality at least.So do people with less than half a personality go by how someone else sees things, or by how no one sees things?


It is preety obvious I think that Miko will end up in the prison plane of souls (Carceri, if my memory serves me right:smallconfused: )as she did a lot of acts of doubtful exaltedness(wow, that was a mouthful).Anyway, since Miko did a lot of evil acts against OOTS while aware of their good nature (she used detect evil on them at some point early in the comic), her soul is bound to end up someplace nasty.:roach:She became convinced that they were hiding their alignment due to some sort of spell. Such spells exist.

While Miko may have been a paranoid schitzophrenic with delusions of grandeur, she was not actually evil.

[Duke Malagigi]

Well, think about it this way: Miko accused Sholo of writing the laws to his own benefit, but she was wrong. He didn't bother; he simply ignored the laws when he didn't want to deal with them (and could get away with it). That means that he isn't Lawful by DnD standards. I mean, come on, he fixed a trial after charging the OOTS with a crime just so that he could get them there, and released Belkar when he was clearly guilty of murder so that he could help the party save the gates. Law doesn't seem to be a big priority for him.

Okay then, I'll bite. But how about my suggested afterlives for Miko? Would any of them fit in your opinion?

[Ithekro]

I doubt any really. Miko is afterall classified as a Lawful Good antagonist. And despite what some would call a Puritan idea that for one or two evil acts one must go to a hell of some kind, D&D just doesn't work off Puritan ideas. Now if Miko had a track record of evil deeds, or had more time to fester after killing Shojo, then perhaps she would have slipped into an evil catagory. Therefore we only have the words of Soon Kim to give us any reasonable clues to her fate. Should those words and the thoughts that a celestial horse cannot venture to the lower planes be true, then Miko is not going to any of the Nine Hells (as many would wish her to go). Therefore the likely destination for a Fallen Paladin who is likely still Lawful Good, is Arcadia. There are alternatives, but none on the Lower Planes. There simply is not enough time for Miko to slip that far from Lawful Good.

Remember she dies about a day after she falls. She dies performing what turns out to be an unnecessary act that, if timed better, could have been heroic and good. But then Miko was never good with her timing (or paying attention to what was going on around her). It was not an evil act, yet it was not the desired outcome of the battle from Soon's point of view. Yet, this is not enough to make her evil. She may have been on the road to evil, just didn't have the time to get their.

[Daimbert]

Okay then, I'll bite. But how about my suggested afterlives for Miko? Would any of them fit in your opinion?

Well, my answer is pretty much what Itherko said, and as I've said before: she isn't evil, and so won't go to any hell. But imagining that she did:

Avernus seems out -- she didn't partake in violence any more than the average paladin would. Well, I suppose if a paladin became evil and followed that policy it might fit, but it seems like she wasn't really more of a killer than other paladins, but was just a better killer than most paladins [grin].

Phlegethos doesn't seem to give a definition of who goes there, unless it's for those who want to control everyone and everything. Well, that's kind of like her, but I don't see it quite that way. She controlled everything because she thought that she was always right and everyone else was wrong if they disagreed with her, not because she liked to be in charge. There's a HUGE difference there [grin]. It could also mean those who CAUSE pain, but there's no evidence she enjoyed doing that either.

Stygia: I've already said that I don't think she was actually a traitor, and we have no evidence that she was actually concerned with station. She just WAS the best; there's no evidence that she did or would politic to get any advance in station.

Maladomini: This one fits her personality, but in all honesty if she was sent here I think she might ultimately find it refreshing. It's a lot of pressure having to be the one who's perfect and always right [grin].

Nessus: If anything changed, it would probably be Law, not Evil, so it doesn't fit.

If I had to choose one, it'd be Maladomini. But I don't, so I won't [grin].

[Duke Malagigi]

To me killing an unarmed man with no evidence of wrong doing that resulted in death, and who posses no imediate threat to you or others counts as an Evil act, not a Chaotic one. While a single Good deed can not wash away innocent blood or other Evil acts a single act of Evil could render meaningless I lifetime of Good deeds. In other words, it is easier to fall towards Evil than to rise towards Good. I might allow her into the Seven Heavens, but only if she agrees to act as Roy's personal maid/human pack animal to be released from her duties at a time of Roy Greenhilt's chosing. This would remain true even when Roy is ressurected, thus requiring Miko to be raised from the dead as well. At worst Miko should go straight to the Nine Hells.

[Duke Malagigi]

The main reason I included Avernus and Phlegthos are their two most martially inclined Dukes, Abigor the Supreme General of Avernus and Carniveau the Duke of Purity of Phlegthos. Abigor stands for corrupted honor and unwillingness to take responsibility for the actions of your own subordinates as well as blind obedience. Carniveau despises all carnal pleasures and seeks to force asceticism and chastity upon all creation. He calls for virgin sacrifice out of the belief that it prevents young women from losing their "purity" or becoming "deflowered". Carniveau also belives that romantic love is a thinly veiled excuse for lust and is therefore in his mind an abomination. He's also a crazy self-righteous fallen astral deva ex-paladin blackguard. Abigor marches around brass-colored plate armor while Carniveau wears a simple long sleeved pure white seemingly linen robe.

[Daimbert]

The main reason I included Avernus and Phlegthos are their two most martially inclined Dukes, Abigor the Supreme General of Avernus and Carniveau the Duke of Purity of Phlegthos. Abigor stands for corrupted honor and unwillingness to take responsibility for the actions of your own subordinates as well as blind obedience.

Doesn't seem like Miko, except perhaps for corrupted honor ... but that could cover so many things if we interpreted that widely [grin].


Carniveau despises all carnal pleasures and seeks to force asceticism and chastity upon all creation. He calls for virgin sacrifice out of the belief that it prevents young women from losing their "purity" or becoming "deflowered". Carniveau also belives that romantic love is a thinly veiled excuse for lust and is therefore in his mind an abomination. He's also a crazy self-righteous fallen astral deva ex-paladin blackguard.

Miko was willing to potentially accept romantic overtures from Roy after the inn explosion, so that wouldn't fit either.

[Duke Malagigi]

Miko was willing to potentially accept romantic overtures from Roy after the inn explosion, so that wouldn't fit either.

It couldn’t happen without quite a bit of persuasion from Carniveau. I mean he could convince Miko that her former romantic feelings for Roy were a sign of mental and moral weakness and that swearing off all potential romantic feelings in the future and pledging allegiance to Hell is the only path to true righteousness. Carniveau would also have to convince Miko that the Sapphire Guard was wicked and corrupt from its beginning and that she is better off serving in Hell than with her fellow paladins.

[David Argall]

To me killing an unarmed man with no evidence of wrong doing that resulted in death, and who posses no imediate threat to you or others counts as an Evil act,
Granted, but note the frequent use of the emotional and irrelevant here. "Unarmed" makes no moral difference here. It is often a practical sign that killing is not needed, and thus immoral, but of itself, it is meaningless.
"No evidence of wrong doing that resulted in death" Now the very length of the phrase should tell us something is wrong with it. It is too much a lawyerly quibble. The "resulted in death" is especially dubious.


While a single Good deed can not wash away innocent blood or other Evil acts a single act of Evil could render meaningless I lifetime of Good deeds.
This is only moderately true. Our single act of evil in such a case would have to be extremely monstrous. Our run of the mill evil can indeed be balanced by a single act of good.
Now there is often a problem in balancing here. We tend to gloss over the petty evils that are done, and to count the minor good deeds. That means our accounting is screwed up. But the principle still applies. The good can balance the evil.
Consider the hold the bridge story. Somebody must stop the enemy from crossing the bridge and killing all of us. Joe steps forward and does that. Joe could have been a thug who beat up somebody every day, but we still count him a hero, and correctly so. He did us a lot more good than harm.

But now we have some leaps in logic. So far, you really only have a "possible". Where is the evidence that shows Miko to be certainly guilty?


I might ...
But you are not the DM here. So what makes you think the DM didn't send her to some LG place? & why was that the wrong decision?

[Roupe]

in strip 464, Soon states that the he and the others are heading to the Celestial realm, but that they will take Miko to her destination also. I read that as in Mikos realm is not in the celestial realm -otherwise he would said it diffrently.

The twelwe gods are angry (with good reason) at Miko, I dont think they feel just stripping her paladinhood is enough. Angry gods punish,
so they will likely move her to the afterlifes eqvivalent of a prison, a punishment realm (or punsihment detail ) in the afterlife, regardless of her strongly debated alignment.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

[David Argall]

Soon's remark about conducting is widely assumed to mean Miko is headed to a different location than Soon is. However, the question is how different. Most of the D&D contructions of the alignment planes get highly complex. The statement "7th heaven" is an actual location. Accordingly, it is quite possible that the two destinations are both LG, and maybe quite close to each other.

Also, while "conduct" can have a wide variety of moral meanings, it sounds here as an honor of sorts. It can hardly be deemed a great one, but there is still that tone of approval.

A somewhat different line on this point is the side trip argument. You are more willing to go out of your way the less you have to go out of your way. Going to CE and then to LG sounds like going from L.A. to NY by way of Buenos Aires. Going LG to another LG sounds more like going by way of Chicago.

However, the very idea of Soon talking with Miko about eliminates the evil planes. Paladins do not associate with evil, particularly not in a friendly manner. And despite having grounds for screaming in anger at Miko, he is friendly. We just have to throw out the lower planes.

Then when we get to Soon's actual comments, we get approval of Miko. Limited approval with criticism, and rejection of any idea she would get her paladinhood back, but still approval. And that is LG approval. Her record is flawed, but still within LG standards.

So the common position is that she is going to a different LG heaven.

[Alias]

I'd say she's bound for the 1st or maybe even the 2nd layer of heaven - paladins end up on the 6th or 7th layers. So a lesser heaven than what she wanted, but heaven all the same.

[Yeril]

The twelwe gods are angry (with good reason) at Miko, I dont think they feel just stripping her paladinhood is enough. Angry gods punish,so they will likely move her to the afterlifes eqvivalent of a prison, a punishment realm (or punsihment detail ) in the afterlife, regardless of her strongly debated alignment.

Have we seen that the 12 gods are angry at her? Even though they took away her powers.

if she hadn't lost her powers, she wouldn't of broken the sapphire.
Maybe thats what they wanted

Maybe the 12 gods Did have a plan for her :smallwink:
And maybe the 12 gods still do have a plan for her :smallamused:

How do we know Miko was Wrong About shojo? Hes a smart guy, if he can convince an enitre city that hes senile to the extent that his cat rules the city then he can probaly pull off what Miko was accusing him of.

Its unlikley yes but theres still the chance of it.

SHOJO = EVIL!!!


Im just saying that its possible that Miko was Right, The whole ramble of "Im the chosen one!" while it does seem crazy but she IS the most powerful paladin in the world who is pledged to the 12 gods. thats gotta mean somthing right?

Thats like saying "Hercules, hes the son of zeus, but it seems he didnt get any powers and ended up a farm boy."

Just my seven cents :smallbiggrin:

[Roupe]

Soon says flat out that the twelve gods have turned away from her.

Soon would tell Miko the same even if she was evil & neutral, since she fulfiled her duty technically. He wanted to vent his frustration on her & inform her she was wrong.


How do we know Miko was Wrong About shojo?
We do, She was removed from paladinhood when she killed him.


could or would Windstriker visit an evil afterlife?
my wiev is yes, since evil & good are not the only criteria. there are the Lawful & Chaos axel too.

Even a good, powerful iconic hero can do a life time of good acts and then fall to evil for one or a few acts & gets punished. past deeds of good doesnt count.

And even good people would get punished if they commited acts of evil thinking they were doing a good deed/act.

Lawful Evil have examples of "for the greater good", "end justifies the means", so they can have a good agenda & follow codes of conducts. And just beacuse a person is evil, that doesnt mean he wouldnt do acts of good, or be evil to the core.
Darth Vader anyone?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

This might seem like a strange question, but does Celestia have a prison?

I ask because there IS a prison in the Abyss, where captured angels, demons who get caught attacking their demon-lords, mortals, etc, get thrown in if they somehow manage to draw enough attention to themselves that they get to do a little time in addition to being in the Abyss.

If a captured angel is imprisoned in the Abyss, couldn't a captured demon/devil/"whatever those fat things are" be put in a Celestial lockup?

SoD Spoiler:
On the last page, and probably last frame, there is a picture of Mt. Celestia in the background while Eugene is being in-processed.

According to the DMG, Celestia is a mountain divided into zones, depending on how Lawful AND Good you were when you died, with "Just made the Cut" down at the base of the mountain, next to the ocean of Holy Water, while "the Paladins who DIDN'T kill their liege" get to stay in the Holy City at the top of the mountain (Sixth Level) with the high priests and the other "really Good."

The Seventh and highest level is off limits...

Windstriker is probably stabled in the Celestia Stables in the Holy City, while Miko will end up gutting Celestial Tuna for sashimi and ahi rolls.

[holywhippet]

Miko was willing to potentially accept romantic overtures from Roy after the inn explosion, so that wouldn't fit either.

She was? If anything she seemed oblivious to the fact that he wanted to sleep with her.

[David Argall]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html

While Miko was totally unaware of some of Roy's approaches, their conversation here includes him apologizing for making her nervous with his passes, and her accepting the apology in terms that imply she was bothered by them.

[Demented]

Judging by the way she reacts, she was probably wasn't bothered by the fact that he was making passes at her, so much as she was bothered that he was behaving like a little Chaotic-aligned schoolboy with a crush.

On the other hand, maybe I've got it wrong because her brain is composed of 1s and 0s, and I don't know how to translate her emotional responses accurately.

Though, the response shortly after that is pretty self-explanatory. :smallamused:

[Daimbert]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html

While Miko was totally unaware of some of Roy's approaches, their conversation here includes him apologizing for making her nervous with his passes, and her accepting the apology in terms that imply she was bothered by them.

This is the comic where she indicated that she might not be that unreceptive to Roy's advances.

Miko clearly didn't get some of his advances because she didn't understand the terms, but it seems obvious that she knows that he IS interested in her from 250 ...

[Yeril]

Soon says flat out that the twelve gods have turned away from her.
Touche' Mr Roupe :smallannoyed:


We do, She was removed from paladinhood when she killed him.

That shows that she was wrong in killing him, not wrong in accusing him. A paladin who beheaded a Unarmed/helpless Murderer without trial would possibly fall, But that only means that the paladin was wrong for killing him like that, Not that the Murderer was innocent of all crimes.

And if she hadn't killed him, resulting events wouldn't of occured, Shojo wouldn't of been dead, If hes still alive he would of had a few of the paladins guarding him, Removing O-chul, or Hinjo, Or even just a few of the paladins defending the gate, Because if this lacking 1-2 paladins xykon might of not had as hard a time getting to the gate and might of managed to defeat Soon Kim.

And if she hadn't fallen then other resulting events wouldn't of occured, She Wouldn't of been in jail, and Wouldn't of destoryed the sapphire which if not somthing bad might of happened, heck a day after the PCs left, leaving the gate with a Weakened Soon Kim ghost protecting it Somone else could of moved in for the prize and finished him off, Like Some new evil group or the Linar Guild and Nale could of gotten the gate. Thus destroying it was the safest and smartest option that the 12 gods chose Miko to do.

And if Miko hadn't killed Shojo and fallen, it wouldn't of ended how it has, for better or for worse.

.... Its possible...

Gods work in mysterious ways! :smallbiggrin: