Alternative to Lay on Hands?

[Batou1976]

I'm looking for replacements/ alternatives to the paladin's Lay on Hands, whether homebrew, 3rd party, or official D&D*. Over the various incarnations and editions of D&D I've played, the paladin has always hewn to a particular paradigm- the shining knight who's also the compassionate healer-y sort and borderline pacifist weenie; like Sir Galahad, if you will. I'm particularly looking for abilities that are more thematically appropriate to the Vengeance paladin; this archetype seems to me to be less about curing wounds and more about causing them. :smallamused: So, like Talion from Shadow of Mordor. If you know of alternatives for other abilities besides Lay on Hands, feel free to mention them, too.


*I'm new to 5E and don't have all the books yet, so I'm deficient in knowledge of published material for this edition

[Slipperychicken]

Laying on hands doesn't mean your paladin has to be compassionate or even nice. He could easily save it all for himself. Even a vengeance paladin has a hard time hurting the wicked when he's dead.

[djreynolds]

Just call it a buffed up second wind, or a different name.

Lay on hands is an action, so instead call it, reaffirmation of my oath of vengeance or whatever. You take an action to recite a saying or prayer about vengeance. Or you recall a memory of the dead and this heals you

for every 20 points of lay on hands, you could do as the barbarian and get reckless attack, or just take a level of barbarian... could do that.

or if you touch someone for every 20 points you could cause fear or disadvantage on their next strike... something equivalent to losing out on 20HP

[Waazraath]

Or have it do the same about of damage, but only against the sworn enemy, instead of healing. Don't think it's too unbalancing.

[Batou1976]

Not looking for ways to re-fluff Lay on Hands; I'm looking for things that aren't Lay on Hands which can replace it.:roy:

Think the Crusader from Diablo III- lots of paladin-appropriate foe-walloping abilities, and nothing that makes it feel like a budget cleric.

[D.U.P.A.]

Eh, most of the time Paladin use Lay on hand on themselves anyway. They are frontline fighters, but have no defensive mechanism when under heavy fire, like Barbarian's rage or Fighter's second wind. Paladins generally already have enough offensive abilities in forms of smites etc. Not having healing abilities would be too dependant on party healers.

[Arkhios]

Not looking for ways to re-fluff Lay on Hands; I'm looking for things that aren't Lay on Hands which can replace it.:roy:

Think the Crusader from Diablo III- lots of paladin-appropriate foe-walloping abilities, and nothing that makes it feel like a budget cleric.

As of now 5th Edition is devoid of pathfinder style archetypes which change core features of a class. What you're looking for is strictly in the homebrew territory.
Lay on Hands is more than just curing hit points. You can neutralize poisons and remove diseases. If you really wish to get rid of Lay on Hands, remember that you're losing quite a bit of abilities that can benefit YOU as much as anyone else. Nothing, as previously stated, says you have to spend a single point of the pool on someone else. You can play it as selfish as you want to, and you won't be any less paladin.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How 'bout Friends at will and Crown of Madness 1/long rest, improving to Dominate Person at 9th and Dominate Monster at 17th? Boom, Talion.

[Arkhios]

How 'bout Friends at will and Crown of Madness 1/long rest, improving to Dominate Person at 9th and Dominate Monster at 17th? Boom, Talion.

I for myself am not familiar with Shadow of Mordor, but this could work as it seems balanced enough.

Another possibility could be to borrow from Pathfinder's Antipaladin feature Touch of Corruption (and Cruelties which is a kind of sub-resource tapping into Touch of Corruption), maybe call it Touch of Pain, as corruption is slightly more suggestive word than pain.

Instead of being able to cure hit points, with a touch you would be able to cause terrible pain to your target by similar calculative process: a pool of 5 points x paladin level, distributable as you wish, point by point.

The damage type could be psychic for example as I would imagine that the touch itself wouldn't leave visible injuries.

Instead of dealing damage you could also expend 5 points to cause the target become stunned or frightened from the pain until the end of your next turn. By spending enough points a single touch could cause multiple effects, maybe even stacking in duration but I would limit the duration to up to 1 minute.

To touch a target you might have to make an unarmed strike, using strength as normal. designate a target within 5 feet of you, and the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw to avoid all effects (damage, stunned, or frightened).

Touch of Pain wouldn't work against constructs or plants (I would think so, at least).

[NecroDancer]

What about "hands on lays"? For every 5 points you heal you paladin get a lay's potato chip?

Edit: I just realized that might be heresy if your paladin is a fan of Doritos

[Foxhound438]

Instead of dealing damage you could also expend 5 points to cause the target become stunned or frightened from the pain until the end of your next turn. By spending enough points a single touch could cause multiple effects, maybe even stacking in duration but I would limit the duration to up to 1 minute.


at that point the paladin becomes a better monk. Sure you don't get 4 attempts in a turn, but if it's just "land this punch and spend 1 level's worth of points to auto-stun a thing", I'd have to say that's a bit too strong. Probably more acceptable with a saving throw attached, but then it's still stealing thunder out from under the monk.

[Arkhios]

at that point the paladin becomes a better monk. Sure you don't get 4 attempts in a turn, but if it's just "land this punch and spend 1 level's worth of points to auto-stun a thing", I'd have to say that's a bit too strong. Probably more acceptable with a saving throw attached, but then it's still stealing thunder out from under the monk.

From design point of view, that's what I was hoping to see. Whether it seems a bit too powerful, and how would it be made less so. Maybe not an unarmed strike then, it might involve touching flavorwise but instead the effect would require a saving throw (Maybe a wisdom save?). If you wonder whether there is any precedent to Touch effects or spells that require a saving throw instead of an attack roll, there is Bestow Curse, at least.

[Plaguescarred]

Tapping hard on your chest is typical. In WWF wrestlers would constantly do this while ough to get revenge on someone :smallsmile:

[Âmesang]

Heck I was just looking at the Oathbreaker's ability to cast hellish rebuke and thinking, "…so it makes them (Hollywood) Hulk Hogan?"

*points finger* "YOU!!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUoSZrxxksE

…speaking of which, I'm thinking an Oathbreaker could have an "anti-" Lay on Hands, dealing damage with a touch (spell save DC?), or expending 5 points to inflict a particular poison or disease.

[Arkhios]

Heck I was just looking at the Oathbreaker's ability to cast hellish rebuke and thinking, "…so it makes them (Hollywood) Hulk Hogan?"

*points finger* "YOU!!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUoSZrxxksE

…speaking of which, I'm thinking an Oathbreaker could have an "anti-" Lay on Hands, dealing damage with a touch (spell save DC?), or expending 5 points to inflict a particular poison or disease.

Very true. The could also switch Divine Smite extra damage to dealing necrotic instead of radiant, since it doesn't sound quite right for an evil paladin to be very radiant (which seems to be associated with celestial and therefore good creatures)

[PeteNutButter]

Very true. The could also switch Divine Smite extra damage to dealing necrotic instead of radiant, since it doesn't sound quite right for an evil paladin to be very radiant (which seems to be associated with celestial and therefore good creatures)

In that light you may want to change which foe types it gets an extra 1d8 to, as currently hitting fiend and undead for another 1d8 doesn't really fit the not so good character. It'd be pretty laughable if you smite a skeleton and get to do an extra 1d8... necrotic.

If you're homebrewing it, you could probably make it like favored enemy. I'd be wary of making it anything too common though.

[Âmesang]

I was permitted to swap out fiends and undead for celestials… not that Variolus is bound to fight either kind. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Not looking for ways to re-fluff Lay on Hands; I'm looking for things that aren't Lay on Hands which can replace it.:roy:

I wonder if it could be safely replaced with the fighter's second wind class feature, adding that it cures the conditions mentioned in Lay on Hands. So once per short rest, a paladin could use second wind, restore 1d10+level hp, and cure any one disease or poison on himself. We could include other status effects too like blindness and deafness.

[Batou1976]

Eh, most of the time Paladin use Lay on hand on themselves anyway. They are frontline fighters, but have no defensive mechanism when under heavy fire, like Barbarian's rage or Fighter's second wind. Paladins generally already have enough offensive abilities in forms of smites etc. Not having healing abilities would be too dependant on party healers.

The part about having offensive capabilities is true.... so what I'm looking for doesn't necessarily have to do damage or be directly related to combat. Since we're talking about the Oath of Vengeance, maybe it could be something related to avenging the wronged/ punishing the wicked outside of direct armed conflict?

Also, I've been reconsidering who a paladin is likely to use LoH on... my own experience doesn't necessarily indicate whether it gets used more on himself or other characters, but the line about "being too dependent on party healers" did cause some concern; without LoH, a paladin's ability to operate on his own is greatly hampered. A lot of the time, PCs operate in groups, sure, but I have been known to run single-PC games. Giving up LoH may not be such a good idea then.

[Batou1976]

What about "hands on lays"? For every 5 points you heal you paladin get a lay's potato chip?

Edit: I just realized that might be heresy if your paladin is a fan of Doritos

Well, Frito-Lay owns Doritos, so you'd still be good. :smallwink: Maybe a member of a sub-branch?

[Ruslan]

Give him the Fighter's Second Wind ability instead and call it a day.

[Kane0]

Corrupting Touch: You get a pool of points equal to your paladin level x4. As a bonus action you can make a melee spell attack, on a hit dealing necrotic damage equal to the amount of points you spend from your pool. You cannot spend more than 2x your paladin level points at a time using this ability.
How's that?

[Batou1976]

Corrupting Touch: You get a pool of points equal to your paladin level x4. As a bonus action you can make a melee spell attack, on a hit dealing necrotic damage equal to the amount of points you spend from your pool. You cannot spend more than 2x your paladin level points at a time using this ability.
How's that?

Looks fitting for an Oathbreaker. :belkar:

I guess I should have specified at the beginning: don't assume the paladin is evil. What I'm actually looking for is alternative abilities to the vanilla, straight-from-the-PHB paladin feature.

[Citan]

I'm looking for replacements/ alternatives to the paladin's Lay on Hands, whether homebrew, 3rd party, or official D&D*. Over the various incarnations and editions of D&D I've played, the paladin has always hewn to a particular paradigm- the shining knight who's also the compassionate healer-y sort and borderline pacifist weenie; like Sir Galahad, if you will. I'm particularly looking for abilities that are more thematically appropriate to the Vengeance paladin; this archetype seems to me to be less about curing wounds and more about causing them. :smallamused: So, like Talion from Shadow of Mordor. If you know of alternatives for other abilities besides Lay on Hands, feel free to mention them, too.


*I'm new to 5E and don't have all the books yet, so I'm deficient in knowledge of published material for this edition
Hi!
Introducing... "Lay on your Hands" :smallbiggrin:
You developed your willpower in a form of psychic energy that you transmit through your eyes to affect even the most insensible enemies, making them feel your domination through their whole body and mind.

As an action, you concentrate your inner energy while muttering a mantra that disorient minds, as you embrace creatures in front of you with a powerful, authoritative gaze. Choose a number of creatures that you can see and within 30 feet, up to a maximum number equal to your Charisma modifier.
Each targeted creature must make a Charisma saving throw. On a successful save, it manages to ward off your effect, at the price of focus: the next attack made against it will be made with advantage. On a failed save, its mind is overriden by fear and awe: the creature drops whatever it was holding and fall prone on its knees and hands, facing you with its head in ground.

Unless it has been harmed in any way before its next turn starts, the creature will spend its turn idolizing you, taking no move nor action. It will then recover its mind, ending the effect.

You can use this ability multiple times between long rests, to affect a maximum total number of creatures equal to your Paladin level. This ability is fully replenished once you finish a long rest. Additionally, creature that are immune to charmed condition are unaffected.

Enjoy ;)
(Quick and dirty on-the-fly, could probably use some improvements on writing, also i feel this should be restricted to humanoids or at least creatures with >5 Intelligence -to limit to creatures wielding equipment-) but do as you like. ;)