Stupid Question... Protection from Evil vs. Diplomacy

[Name1]

So I've been thinking: You can clearly block someone using Diplomacy to get you up to fanatic with Mind Blank. We know that because the fanatic thing specifically mentions that it can be supressed like that, but does making someone Fanatic imply mental control? I'd say yes, but I'm not 100% sure.

On that note: What does "Helpful" mean? Would a guard let you pass count as "helpful"? I figured that it would be similar to what's written in fanatic, given that a guard that does that will probably be forced to kill and eat his own family before getting the good ol' Bamboo Torture until the end of his life (which is like what... 2 days?), so my instinct is no, but...


What does the playground think?

[Troacctid]

It's up to the DM to determine how the NPC will act. Different NPCs will act differently, even if they have the same attitude. The rule of thumb is that Diplomacy should not cause the character to do something that would break their character for them to do. Would they do it for a close friend? If not, then Diplomacy probably won't help, no matter how high you roll. For example, even if you raise a merchant's attitude to Helpful, she will not give you that airship for free.

[Segev]

It's up to the DM to determine how the NPC will act. Different NPCs will act differently, even if they have the same attitude. The rule of thumb is that Diplomacy should not cause the character to do something that would break their character for them to do. Would they do it for a close friend? If not, then Diplomacy probably won't help, no matter how high you roll. For example, even if you raise a merchant's attitude to Helpful, she will not give you that airship for free.

Exactly. On the other hand, a Helpful merchant might well tell you about the best deal she has available, and work with you to figure out exactly what you need and how best to achieve it...as long as it doesn't mean she's actually ruining herself or betraying others she wouldn't normally feel right about betraying (given various levels of friendliness towards those others).

[Ashtagon]

On that note, a helpful guard won't necessarily let you through the gate, because he wouldn't want to expose a good friend to the embarrassment of other guards kicking that friend out. He would, however be willing to explain what permits and/or clothing is needed to pass as someone who should be on the other side of that gate.

[KillianHawkeye]

I feel like a lot of the "problems" with diplomacy can be fixed by the simple realization that diplomacy isn't mind control. You can convince someone to be your friend, but you can't make a friend do whatever you say if they're simply not willing to do that thing even for a friend.

[Segev]

It's a delicate balance. Friends will help. But they will help in what they think is the best way. Not necessarily how you want them to. Not that they'll cause problems. But they will tell you how to accomplish something: they won't necessarily do it all for you nor let you do whatever you want when they hunk you're being foolish.

But they will help! Serious, real help.

[Efrate]

Helpful to me implies going above and beyond to be useful, but not to the point where they betray everyone/thing they know and hold dear. That is fanatic which might as well be [ex] Mind-effecting, Compulsion. Its an EX dominate monster with less/no possibilities to do whatever you say. A fanatic murders his family, his lord, his friends, and throws himself into the mouth of an onrushing dragon to save you with no reluctance or will to resist at all.

You could have some fun with someone a PC made fanatic but didn't immediately order them to do something that kills said NPC off. How they best interpret what is best for you when given no guidance has a lot of possibilities.

A helpful guard might overlook the fact that you shouldn't be let in to see the Baron, but as long as he was expressely forbidden to keep everyone out I'd say you get a pass. If he was, he would do all in his power to vouch for you and get you the required persmission in as little time and with as little red tape as possible. He won't necessarily help you against his other guardsmen after you do something to cause them to chase you, but he might very pointedly not look which way to ran so he couldn't help them.

A helpful merchant would do all in his power to get the PCs what they need at as little cost as he could and still make a reasonable profit. He won't beggar himself or give away that near priceless magic thingamajig. I'd say any services under a reasonable amount (100gp? 10gp?) he does for free or close to it, over that he just charges whatever you deem reasonable. Furthermore, no magic item can be haggled down to less than 90% of its cost, again barring fanatic.

[Troacctid]

Well, for haggling specifically, there's actually a separate set of rules with modifiers to the DCs and whatnot. So maybe a poor example.

[Name1]

Ok, thanks for the answers. I'll let Protection from Evil supress Fanatic and Helpful characters will now provide any sort of aid which will not actively endanger them.

[Segev]

Ok, thanks for the answers. I'll let Protection from Evil supress Fanatic and Helpful characters will now provide any sort of aid which will not actively endanger them.

I'd suggest that they would provide aid even if it would endanger THEMSELVES, to a limited extent. But probably not others (unless they're on the southern side of Neutral). "Helpful" will explicitly "take risks."

Now, what they won't do is violate their personal codes, character, etc. You won't get a Helpful Paladin to risk the life of the Princess he's defending to help you break into the castle. But you might get him to talk to the Princess about granting you permission to enter legitimately, even though it risks making him look bad or biased. You could certainly get him to play bodyguard to you while you go investigate the thugs' den in the thugtown district, even though you're all but certain to be attacked. As long as doing so didn't also put his Princess in danger.

[Flickerdart]

On that note: What does "Helpful" mean? Would a guard let you pass count as "helpful"?
It depends.

Helpful reads "Will take risks to help you...Protect, back up, heal, aid" but that's not all that it means. Any person will be at a convergence of many different relationships. We will take just one example - the Commander of the Guard.

If this particular guardsman has a poor attitude towards his commander (unfriendly: wishes him ill, or indifferent: doesn't much care) then he will let you pass, since he values his relationship with you over his relationship with his boss.

But if his attitude towards the commander is also Helpful, and the commander asked him to watch that door...you have something of a conflict. The guard will take risks to do what the commander asked of him, which is to keep you out. Just because he is also willing to take risks on your behalf doesn't mean that his other duties disappear. And he's likely to value his established relationship more than the opinion of some guys he just met.

And a typical guard will also have attitudes towards his sergeants, his companions, the people in the cell he's guarding, his family, his king...there are a lot of potential conflicts between his Helpful to you and his Helpful to someone else. Hell, his "protect" mandate might lead him to beg you to leave before you are discovered, rather than do what you ask!