PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next is this class balanced ?.



shaman23
2016-10-09, 03:44 PM
Hy.

So Iam working on homemade classes for 5e for different reason mostly related to campain setting.
L5r inspired samurai, arcane sharpshooter, alchemist with construct companion...
And the codename "magic boomrang guy".
For different reason Im not shure of the balanced power of this one...
I can't say if it's OP or just average. So I would like the feed back of the community very much... Thanks in advance :) and sorry for my english (the written is not my thing, it's not my natural language).

This class is all about fighting with a boomrang or a shakram using both skill and innate arcana power.
The concept is, one throw, several hits while the weapon is bouncing on targets (with a roll for each target and on a miss the streak ends).
With that is a couple of special attack, arcane infusion, special shots and other feature related to the use of one weapon, a boomrang or a shakram.
So a lot of splashing damage but with a big risk, if a shot misses, then it's done. Because all attacks are part of the same action, if you miss youre initial target, it's over.

Hit die : D10.
Proeff :
- Dex and wis save
- Light armor
- Simple weapon
- 3 skill from perception, stealh, acrobatic, investigation and athletic
- Artisan tool (wood or metal) to craft/repair shakram or boomrang

Gear :
A simple melee weapon, two daggers and 10 dart.
A leather armor.
An explorer or dungeoneer pack.
Artisan tool (wood or metal). That allow you to re craft a lost or destroyed shakram/boomrang. But you can only have one at a time.
A boomrang or shakram.

Boomrang/Shakram are 1d6 bludgening/slashing throwing weapon with a range of 90/180 (using dex).

The core feature of the class is the streak.
A streak is a series of attacks made as part of the same action but on different creature.
When an attack misses a streak end.
The number of creature that can be hit as part of a streak is determined by the streak cap.
The range max between the target of an attack and any potential folowing target is determined by the streak range.
When you hit a creature with a boomrang/shakram, if there is another target inside youre streak range and you have not exeded youre streak cap, then you can make another attack as part of the same action (you roll again both to hit and dmg). So a free attack, if a target is nearby but you have to hit the first time, that's important.


When you take this class, you gain proeff with shakram and boomrang. You are also able to use thoses weapon as melee weapon with dex or str (and you have proeff).
You also gain proeff with any type of weapon with the thrown feature if used throwned.

Youre starting streak cap is 2 (that does include the initial target). Youre starting streak range is 30 (max distance between initial target and potential second one).
So again, you make a range attack, on a hit you can make another attack against another creature, on a miss you are done.

You gain the following feature at those lvl :

1 :
Boomrang master 1 : +1 to hit /+1 dmg with all thrown weapon

Eldtrich luck : You can change a miss on a attack roll made with youre boomrang into a hit. One use per Long Rest (LR).
( It's an important feature because the class is link to the streak concept so when you miss once, you're done, no extra attack, no bonus attack. That's why bending the luck is core)

Improvised shot : When a creature you can see (within 30 feet of you) attack an allie, you can use youre reaction to make a simple ranged attack with youre boomrang/shakram (b/s) against that creature (no streak or special shot possible). On a hit, you impose disadvantage to the attack roll against youre allie (and deal normal damage). When you have use this feature you can't use it again before a long rest.

2 :
Double shot (special attack) : The first special attack and a way to focus fire one ennemy. Special attack are attack made with the boomrang/shakram (BS) at range.
After a successful hit on an initial target, instead of creating a streak you can grab back youre weapon then use youre bonus action to make another attack against the same target with advantage.
(yes it is a free advantage but if the initial attack is a miss, you don't have a second attack at all. That kinda balance things up imao)

Minor infusion : Using a bonus action you can infuse your class weapon with youre arcane energy. Until the beginning of youre next turn, youre boomrang or shakram deal an extra 1d4 spychic damage. You can use this feature twice and regain all expended use after a short rest.

3 :
Streak range : 35

Arcane infusion : You can use the arcane infusion feature twice between long rest.

You gain the arcane infusion : elemental infusion. You can use an arcane infusion to, as part of an action, imbue youre B/S with elemental power for one minute.
Choose cold, fire or lightning. Youre B/S deals an extra 1d6 dmg of the chosen type..

4 : stats upgrade

5 :
Arcane shot : You can use the arcane shot feature 1 + wis mod per long rest (min 1)
You gain the arcane shot : force blast.
When you hit a creature with youre B/S you can use the force blast feature to deal +1d10 force dmg to the target.

6 :
Streak range 40 / streak cap 3

Bouncing shot (Special attack) : Choose two creature within 15 feet of each other. Make a range attack roll on one. On a hit, make an attack on the second. Youre weapon bounce back violently at the initial target. Make a second and last attack roll against the initial target, on a hit the target take an extra 1d8 dmg.

7 :
Eldritch luck 2 : Gain a second use per long rest of the ability to turn a miss into a hit while using youre class weapon.

Runic weapon : Youre class weapon (boomrang or shakram) become magical for resistance purposes.

8 : stats upgrade

9 :
You gain a new arcane shot the illusory shot. You can use the arcane shot feature to gain advantage on any attack roll made at range with youre B/S.
(again this a way to control youre luck / you are creating duplicate illusion of youre weapon so the target does'nt know wich one to evade)

10 :
Powered shot (special attack) : Youre initial target take an extra 1d12 dmg of force dmg, you then gain disadvantage on each attack for the rest of the streak but also deal an extra 1d4 force dmg to each target after the initial target of the streak.
( I ve try to make so all special attack are a viable option against a regular streak. Depending on how you wanna spread the dmg, or focus fire, take risk. I've also try to build a synergy with the arcane infusion a arcane shot)

11 :
Arcane infusion : Eldritch infusion. You can use youre arcane infusion feature to, using an action, give to youre B/S +2 to hit and +2 dmg for one minute.

You gain proeff with arcana ( if you allready have it, choose another skill)

Boomrang master 2 : You gain +2 to hit /+2dmg with thrown weapon (instead of the +1/+1 you had, not on top of it)

12 : stats

13 :
streak range 45 / streak cap 4

Accelerating shot (special shot). The second target of a streak take an extra 2 dmg. The third an extra 4 dmg. The forth an extra 6 dmg.
( so now you have four option for special shot and no reason to use a standard shot. The acc shot become youre go to. The double is still the best against one creature for focus fire. The bouncing is a nice option in certain condition to do a litlle of splashing while focusing one one target. The powered is worth the risk if you wanna use ressource to bend youre luck)

14 :
Psychic link. Youre class weapon, boomrang or shakram now deal an extra +1d4 psychic dmg on each hit (including melee)

15 :
You now gain 1 arcane infusion back after a short rest.

Momentum : If the last hit of a streak is a succes, the target take 1d6 extra dmg/streak length (streak 2 : 2d6. streak 3 : 3d6. streak 4 : 4d6 )
If a streak ends on a miss, you don't gain the momentum bonus dmg. The streak has to end because you choose to, no creature was in range or youre streak cap was hit.
The feature works with regular streak and special shot, including bouncing shot (3d6)
(So now choosing when/if ending a streak become strategic)

16 : stats

17 :
Streak range 50

Eldtrich luck 3 : Gain a third use per long rest of the ability to turn a miss into a hit while using youre class weapon.

Lasting crit : When you score a critical hit as part of a streak (including the initial shot) you gain advantage on attack roll for the rest of the streak

18 :
Psychic call back : After a succesful streak (that ended on a hit) each creature damaged by the streak must make a dex save DC 8+proeff+dex mod.
Roll damage like in a regular attack damage dice + mod + arcane infusion if any. On a failed save, a creature take that amount of damage.
You can use this feature once every long rest.

19 :
Arcana streak : As an action. Choose up to 4 creature in a 60 feet radius around you. They make a dex save DC 8 + poeff+wis. They take 7d10+10 force dmg on fail and half as much on a pass.
You can use this feature once every long rest.

20 :
Boomrang master 3 : You now have +3 to hit /+3 dmg with all thrown weapon.

Once per Short Rest, after you took an attack action using youre B/S, gain a free attack action.

Artagon
2016-10-09, 06:49 PM
This may sound harsh, so brace yourself. I just want you to think about what exists in game already compared to what you have here.

So the first thing I did before I even finished reading was to pull out my PHB to look up chain lightning so that I could get an idea of how it functions. First off, it's a 6th level spell that deals 10d8 (40) damage to up to 4 targets. At level 11 a caster could do this once. At level 19 the caster would finally get a second slot at 6th level to do it a second time at that level and 3 more times as higher level spells, which grants additional targets per spell slot above 6th. Each target of that spell must be within 30 ft of the initial target.

Compare that to what you have here. Yours does up to 2d6+11 (18) damage with a +3 weapon and has significantly longer reach between targets and you can do it an indefinite number of times per day. In less than 3 rounds you would overtake the damage of an 6th level spell.

Perhaps we should look at a more at-will comparison? Let's look at yours compared to Eldritch Blast, which is probably one of the highest DPS cantrips out there with options for targetting up to 4 targets (or using multiple beams to hit the same target, much like your specialty attacks). That spell does 1d10+stat damage per blast, and you can add Hex dmg to ONE target for an additional 1d6 dmg per hit to ONE TARGET.

Your boomerang/chakram deals 1d6+stat dmg per hit, +3 attk/dmg (which no other class gets in 5e), +1d6 elemental dmg on EVERY TARGET, on top of which you can also get an additional +d10 dmg 1+wis times/day.

That plus the ability to turn misses into hits and having other special attacks for additional damage or goodies.. is pretty imbalanced. No other class has the kind of consistant DPS potential that you do at such large ranges. While you tout the streak as being balancing, you give the class an additional +3 to hit, thus limiting that balance significantly. AC/to-hit is a fragile balance.

All of that stuff I already listed was rules as you probably intended. At the moment you are not specifying whether or not you need to concentrate on your imbues.. can I have more than one going? If you leave it the way it is worded, you haven't set a limit on the elemental imbues (though I think you probably meant psychic and elemental to be tied together in uses, right?) so I could have every element going for an insane amount of damage and I don't even have to concentrate on it.


All that said.. I boomerang/chakram user seems like it could be fun. I personally would start with a framework based on Warlock or Fighter (both of which can have up to 4 ranged attacks in a regular round) and build from there. I'd keep the targets you can hit in line with those classes and where they get them in the class/spell breakdowns. I'd drop the +to-hit/dmg completely, because no other class grants that. I'd take a hard look at how much damage you want to add in, and I'd want to shrink the space between bounces dramatically. Most battlefields aren't going to be big enough to need that kind of range between targets. If you really want there to be advantage for streaks, you could maybe use battle master style dice or introduce damage after each bounce. The main advantages of the bounce mechanic should be that you can hit extra enemies from around a corner in addition to your main target.. and the fact that you don't have to re-draw ammunition between attacks or rounds because it comes back to you.

One thing you could consider would be to lower the range of the weapon and allow your extra attacks to originate from the last target of your attack.. so a 30 ft range boomerang could hit one guy, then hit another guy that you can draw a line to from that point up to 30 ft away, etc.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-09, 11:04 PM
Also, quick thoughts on a few abilities. Mostly just nitpicking.

Hit Dice: D10 is for characters who are likely to be in melee and expected to get hit. Your character is almost purely ranged, so d8 is more appropriate for Hit Dice.

Saves: Not both Dex and Wis. Class save proficiencies are limited to one save from Dex, Wis, and Con, and one save from Int, Str, and Cha.

Skills: Why Investigation? This class doesn't seem like the ones to make use of that. Arcana, maybe, with their magical effects.

Weapons: Did you mean Chakram, as the sharpened metal disk? Also, both weapons should and would have a shorter range than that. Bent sticks and battle Frisbees would hardly have a range comparable to bows and crossbows.

Bharaeth
2016-10-10, 05:11 AM
I'd want to pitch in to say that, with or without the damage capacity of the boomerang/chakram reduced, this class is very much a one-trick pony. At a ranged fight you can kick all kinds of ass, but that's all your class features do. Fair enough, you get an extra skill than most, but the Ranger, Rogue and Bard also get bonus skills and a lot more versatility on top, never mind what casters can do. You could argue that Fighters are one-trick ponies, too, but their extra survivability and feats probably give them lots more options.

Outside of combat, this class could be a bit dull

shaman23
2016-10-11, 03:33 PM
So... no it is not balanced.
Well thank you, that was my question. I am new to 5e (I did not now the rules for class saving throw proficiencies restriction for exemple).

Yeah, I clearly gave too much importance to the link statues of attack. In my mind, having youre extra attacks tied to the succes of the initial attack was a big deal.
I still don't know how to take that into account fairly.

Also, Sicarus you are clearly right for the hit die. (investigation was here to give out of combat option to the class, thinking that the open eye thing was coherent with this class).
And yes I am talking about the indian weapon Chakram (I thought it was with an S in english, sorry).

About the range (both streak and initial), I went back and forth, initially it was very lower. Like 30/60 for initial and 10 to 30 for the streak. Then I thought that it was too limiting, it appear my initial thought was the right one.

About the infusion.
It was not clearly stated but yes you have 2 use a day, taking an action, it last one minute and you choose elemental or eldritch. You can't use both at the same time or two type of elemental.
Concentration was not included because of the "no regular magic" aspect of the setting. This is why i am crafting this class, to take the role of a blatser/caster.
But I'll use concentration on another class iam building, so I should use it also for the infusion.

The worst thing is that it was suppose to be the easy class of the bunch to make.
But now, Iam scared that my arcane gunslinger has the same problem. And I allready have difficulty creating the clockwork master (engeneer in clockwork armor, with clockwork companion, clockwork familliar (a scarab) and a 10 foot range gun doing elemental dmg). The martial artist, unarmed and unarmored using a projection (duplicate of him) in combat working like a mix of the trickery domain channel divinity and mirror image is not easy to build either.

Maybe I should try with a game system I know better but 5e seems like the perfect candidate. ( Iam creating an entire group for a campain, there would be no regular class. I usally do that kind of thing with simpler build and homemade rules but 5e is so simple and elegant... )

Well I have work to do.
So...
- nerf the range to 30/60 and streak range to 10-30
- get rid of special shot (advantage or +d10 dmg on a shot)
- streak cap 3 at lvl 11 and 4 at 20
- boomrang master stay at +1 to hit/+1 dmg all along (I have to say it was mainly there to mitigate the fact that the class can't get a magic weapon)
- eldtrich luck does'nt turn a hit on a miss but instaed give you advantage ?
- get rid of psychic link (flat dmg upgrade of 1d4 psychic dmg).
- no more extra infusion recover after a SR (lvl 15)
- limit the use of all special shot to 1+wisdom mod every long rest
- change momentum so it now deals only one d6 dmg (instaed of 1d6 per streak length), does'nt work with special shot. But maybe give acces to this feature way earlier and allowing it to work on the initial target.
- Only one arcane infusion per LR at first.

I clearly have work to do but you helped me a lot allready, so thanks for that. Iam far for done, and I'll need help for the other classes... so feel free to give me any extra advice.
I sincerly appreciate it.
Thanks again


PS : I'll take the one trick poney problem into consideration. My main concern were mechanical but I need to give the character/class option for out of combat. This will probably be dealt with special race and background feature.

Artagon
2016-10-11, 07:46 PM
Honestly,

The base classes are pretty well balanced, so I highly recommend using them and breathing new life via sub-classes.
Just rename/reflavor the abilities they already have. For example, arcane gunslinger could easily use the warlock as the base class.. eldritch blast already has great damage and scales number of attacks well. Create a new Pact instead.. Gunslinger or something.. to give it some unique flare for your setting. Alternatively, Ranger (especially the UA revised version) would be a good fit with a gun (there are rules for guns) and an appropriate sub-class.

For Clockwork Master take a look at how the Ranger Revised does Beast Master to give you ideas on how to make a balanced companion. You could even take Ranger Beastmaster and reflavor everything to be more mechanical sounding.

Clockwork Master could also be based off of rogue for base class features since they are experts of the 'exploration' tier of play and it would make sense to have all the skill expertise, and mix in some of the beastmaster sub-class from ranger. Sneak Attack with a little re-tooling could make for a super nifty 'shotgun'.

It's usually not necessary to completely create a class from nothing. Use what WotC has already provided to give you guidelines.

P.S. - 5e is balanced where magic weapons aren't needed. Take a look at high level monster ACs some time.

Artagon
2016-10-12, 11:09 AM
For the Chakram master I'd probably use the fighter as a base. With the Battle Master, one thing you could do would be to increase the number of initial uses from 4/rest to 7/rest, while lowering the initial damage from d8 to d4 and scaling from there. The damage averages out to .5 lower per rest and it gives you greater numbers of usage for the maneuvers. A lot of the maneuvers are not melee specific so they will work with Chakram.

I would probably add a couple Chakram Master specific maneuvers.. such as a maneuver that allows you to attack another target in range after the initial attack, dealing the Superiority Die in damage to that target.. this would give the level 20 fighter using this up to 8 targets in a round if you use 4 dice in a round. That's without using action surge.

Then I'd probably make a feat for the Chakram/Boomerang that would make it a returning weapon (if you've ever thrown a boomerang you know that it's a skill to make it come back to you) and also make it count as a magic weapon (the way that monks can make their fists magical). I'd say it could also give you one other bonus.. I'm thinking I'd make it so that you don't provoke AoO using it as a ranged weapon in melee.