Are Half-Elves any good at all?

[An Enemy Spy]

Seems to me that they're just a crappier version of elves with none of the advantages humans get. Humans and Elves both wipe their feet on these guys. Is there something about them I'm not seeing?

[Name1]

Seems to me that they're just a crappier version of elves with none of the advantages humans get. Humans and Elves both wipe their feet on these guys. Is there something about them I'm not seeing?

In 3.5, I think the only good thing about them is that they can take the Human and the Elf paragon class... but that's not too much of a benefit. I believe in Pathfinder there is a useful spell that only they can use, but that's about all I know about that, since I don't actively play PF.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If I remember correctly there's a very nice half-elf only diplomacy feat somewhere - Races of Destiny, maybe.

[digiman619]

Seems to me that they're just a crappier version of elves with none of the advantages humans get. Humans and Elves both wipe their feet on these guys. Is there something about them I'm not seeing?

From what I understand, other than to help Diplomancy builds not so much. In Pathfinder, they get a couple of nifty things, though. (+2 to any attribute, free Skill Focus and two favored classes come to mind, and that's before you even get into the optional racial traits you can swap in.)

[Necroticplague]

Seems to me that they're just a crappier version of elves with none of the advantages humans get. Humans and Elves both wipe their feet on these guys. Is there something about them I'm not seeing?

For diplomancer builds, they have a bard ACF that's pretty good. Outside of that, yeah, they suck pretty badly compared to the other core races.

[MisterKaws]

Well, Half-Drows can take nine levels worth of paragon classes by abusing the silly wording of the Half-Elf Paragon, but that's the only neat trick I can remember for any of the Half-Elf variants.

Of course, Half-Human Elves can do DCFS on their racial weapon proficiencies, but Elves can do that anyway...

[Afgncaap5]

Half-Elves are better as a roleplaying choice than as mechanical ones, and most of the best half-elf material either needs to be very setting specific or based on DM fiat, sadly (Having said that, I love a lot of Eberron's half-elf options; some of those prestige classes and feats are pretty nice. That's not a "good thing half elves have" so much as a "good thing half elves get", though, which isn't really the same.) I offer my players a modified version in the games I run just in case anyone wants to play one for story purposes but doesn't like the mechanical reality of it:

-Unearthed Arcana has a sidebar from one DM who gives half-elves the +1 skill point per level that humans get. Always seemed reasonable to me, and while it's not presented so much as an "official rule variant" as it is as an "anecdote" the fact that it's in the book helps me to justify it to the players who want me to do things "by the book" (or at least by "a" book.)
-Pathfinder giving every half-elf Skill Focus as a bonus feat always sat well with me, so I backported it to 3.5. It suggests the extra versatility of humans, but also sort of implies that they've had to find their own way in the world more than it implies that they could lend themselves to anything (at least to me, anyway.)
-Also from Pathfinder, letting them have two favored classes. Favored Classes means something very different in 3.5 than it does in Pathfinder, but I feel like it makes sense. They're torn between worlds, but also very talented. Now, my players almost never multiclass enough for the penalties to come into play to begin with (even when I've offered to take those penalties away) so this benefit doesn't really come up too often, but I like that it's there.

[eggynack]

Just looked into the other substitution level options and, jeez, why are half-elf fighter substitution levels so bad? You're basically trading good feat selection for a halfway decent temporary skill list. Half-elf ranger is a bit better. You get some skills, trade track for the kinda interesting and harder to block urban tracking, skill mastery seems decent, and the spells, well, it seems bad on the surface, given how much you're giving up, but trading combat spells for more utility oriented stuff seems good when you're not primarily relying on your spells. Not worth going half-elf though. Very little is worth going half-elf. At least half-orc gets actually solid substitution levels.

[Troacctid]

Half-drow are useful for a few specific builds that require you to be a drow, since they count as drow without the +2 level adjustment of a full drow.

[DEMON]

jeez, why are half-elf fighter substitution levels so bad?

I guess it's more of a "if you were to TWF and to take the WF for either a longsword or a rapier anyways, this way you get some extras with it", than an actual boon.

Ranger's 13th level ability is a great one, though, in my eyes and Bard's sub levels are decent enough as well.

[Efrate]

They can be eternal blades without a con penalty. Only half elf I remember very much enjoying was a crusader/eternal blade. Elf blood does has some limited uses, but not many. Far and away the weakest core race, one of the weakest of all races.

[willyryan]

they can take human or elf feats eg able learner

[Necroticplague]

they can take human or elf feats eg able learner

Not true. Half-elf is it's own race, separate from both Elf and Human. They have a racial feature that makes them count as Elves, but not one that makes them count as Human. They can burn a feat to get that benefit (Human Heritage), through, but it's not something they have by default.

[DrMotives]

Not true. Half-elf is it's own race, separate from both Elf and Human. They have a racial feature that makes them count as Elves, but not one that makes them count as Human. They can burn a feat to get that benefit (Human Heritage), through, but it's not something they have by default.

There is a sidebar suggesting that as a houserule in Races of Destiny, which also says that DMs not taking that option could make Human Heritage feat available. So if willyryan plays with that rule in effect, I can see forgetting that otherwise the HH feat would be required to do that.

[Zaq]

If you play in Eberron and you adhere to fluff restrictions (they're mechanical restrictions in that they're written into the rules, but they're fluff restrictions in that they're based on fluff rather than on mechanical concerns), only half-elves can take Mark of Storm, which means that they're the only ones who can take Windwright Captain (or that other Mark of Storm-based PrC whose name I can't recall offhand), and Windwright Captain is pretty sweet.

Beyond that, yeah, either you're trying to squeeze every possible drop out of a diplomancer build (and unless you need weird feats or racial sub levels or something, illumians do "my race gives bonuses to CHA-based skills" better) or you're simply making a mechanically poor choice by being a half-elf.

[DracoknightZero]

In Pathfinder they are rather decent as they allow you to pick both human and elf feats and favored class bonuses. Plus you have a few variant race features you can take like darkvision, +2 will save, etc.

If theres anything else i havent mentioned i dont know, i normally play human as mechanically i feel they are the better race to go with due to the extra feat, skillpoint and in general decent favored class bonuses.

[Zanos]

Pathfinder half-elves get paragon surge too, and are generally pretty great. Floating +2 and qualifying for elf and human stuff makes them solid. Bonus skill focus is as good as the skill you take it for.

3.5 half-elves are widely regarded as the worst race in the PHB. As others have mentioned outside of very, very specific niche builds, they're outclassed by their peers at everything.

[Zaq]

To kind of build on that, half-elves basically aren't bad at anything, but that's because half-elves are as close to a blank race as we have to offer. For most builds, you can almost always find a race that is worse than a half-elf, simply because they don't have any penalties, and you can cherry-pick some race that has a penalty that your specific build cares about. So you can pretty much always do worse than a half-elf.

That said, when you consider how many options you have that are actively beneficial, simply failing to incur a penalty isn't really enough. We don't want to judge a character race by what it's not bad at so much as by what it's good at, and it's really difficult to make half-elves be actively good at anything.

[Fizban]

I like the half-human elf for elven proficiencies and low-light vision without messing with ability scores or being older than everything else. Useful for meeting some prerequisites and for low-level spellcasters before they have enough spells. Vision abilities I think are undervalued since they're basically slapped on anything non-human for free, but one of the only problems with human is no inherent vision upgrades. Without a perfectly positioned bullseye lantern you can't see anything in the dark until it's within charge range. Meanwhile almost every other race laughs at the idea of sneaking in under cover of night since it doesn't work on them.

Does that mean I've actually made any builds with it? Yeah not really, it's more of a nice idea. Maybe if you threw in the skill points or a skill focus, ease up on more prerequisites.

[Necroticplague]

To kind of build on that, half-elves basically aren't bad at anything, but that's because half-elves are as close to a blank race as we have to offer. For most builds, you can almost always find a race that is worse than a half-elf, simply because they don't have any penalties, and you can cherry-pick some race that has a penalty that your specific build cares about. So you can pretty much always do worse than a half-elf.

That said, when you consider how many options you have that are actively beneficial, simply failing to incur a penalty isn't really enough. We don't want to judge a character race by what it's not bad at so much as by what it's good at, and it's really difficult to make half-elves be actively good at anything.

I'd argue that the humans make a better 'blank slate' in that respect, because the bonuses they do have are selectable wild cards, and thus for anything, while still not having any outright penalties. Meanwhile, the Half-elf does have some bonuses that predispose it to certain things.

[Zanos]

To kind of build on that, half-elves basically aren't bad at anything, but that's because half-elves are as close to a blank race as we have to offer. For most builds, you can almost always find a race that is worse than a half-elf, simply because they don't have any penalties, and you can cherry-pick some race that has a penalty that your specific build cares about. So you can pretty much always do worse than a half-elf.

That said, when you consider how many options you have that are actively beneficial, simply failing to incur a penalty isn't really enough. We don't want to judge a character race by what it's not bad at so much as by what it's good at, and it's really difficult to make half-elves be actively good at anything.
To expand on this, it's an opportunity cost. By selecting half-elf, you've gained very little, but spent a character building resource. Since you can only select one race, you've given up the the chance to select another race by picking half-elf.

Obviously being an half-elf doesn't actually penalize you, but it prevents you from selecting a race with more attractive racial features.

[gooddragon1]

delete...delete

[Calthropstu]

"Are Half-Elves any good at all?"

Half elves tend to be neutral, but can be found with any alignment.

Useless post is useless!

[Mordaedil]

3.0 and 3.5 half-elves are awful, Pathfinder half-elves are good.

If you have to take feats or classes to make your race choice viable, it is a waste of time. Work with your DM to give you a better race.

[eggynack]

If you have to take feats or classes to make your race choice viable, it is a waste of time. Work with your DM to give you a better race.
That's not really the way I see that angle. It's not that the feats and classes are making the race viable. It's that the feats and classes and such are awesome, and you want to access them, so you make a somewhat sub par racial choice for them, and then the racial choice isn't all that sub par. It's like, shifter druids would be pretty awful normally, but they're supported with all this cool stuff, the substitution levels, moonspeaker, even a spell or item or two, and so they're awesome. Same goes for half-orc druids, actually. The positive qualities of a race don't need to be intrinsic for those positive qualities to exist, and I think there's something to be said for having some races provide completely different angles. Most races are just a bundle of stats and maybe some neat abilities. These more narrow races focus more on these abilities that'd otherwise be unlikely to pop up, ones allowed to grow and develop across your entire build if so desired. The problem with half-elf isn't that it relies on this stuff. It's that the race sucks either way.

[Mordaedil]

That's why I said "viable", yes.

[eggynack]

That's why I said "viable", yes.
Not sure how that applies. I'm saying that a race can require feats and classes to be viable, and still be worthwhile as a race within the context of the game. In other words, said races are not a waste of time.

[ekarney]

I think they qualify for some sort of familiar feat only they can get which is part of an Incantatrix build?

So if you like metamagic feats they're kinda good I guess.

[Mordaedil]

Not sure how that applies. I'm saying that a race can require feats and classes to be viable, and still be worthwhile as a race within the context of the game. In other words, said races are not a waste of time.

You concluded it sucked either way.

[eggynack]

You concluded it sucked either way.
Half-elf does. Because it's not made all that viable with extra stuff. Other races do get awesome with extra stuff, and so are awesome.

[Mordaedil]

I see where we miscommunicated, yes. I can't speak for every other race, but since the topic was about the half-elf, that was what I extrapolated upon. Like, if you have to pick certain classes or feats to make it to the level where it is merely a viable choice, odds are you could have picked something better that would fulfill what you wanted to accomplish more easily.

Well, in general anyway. If you want to be the child of an elf and a human, you really don't have a choice but to play as a half-elf. But you can argue with your DM to make it a little bit more attractive.

[Necroticplague]

Well, in general anyway. If you want to be the child of an elf and a human, you really don't have a choice but to play as a half-elf. But you can argue with your DM to make it a little bit more attractive.

Not necessarily. You can always just refluff either human or elf, or refluff a completely different race and claim hybrid vigor.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder Half-Elves are quite strong - stronger than Humans in some builds. I personally like this paradigm because they really do feel like they're combining the strengths of both races, rather than being watered down versions of their parents.

The 5e races seem at first blush to be on even footing with one another, though I don't have the experience to notice any strong advantages.

[SimonMoon6]

I like half drow simply because I think darkvision can be very handy. I've never run into a situation where "low light vision" was of any use whatsoever, but darkvision can be very handy, especially for someone who sneaks around. I think of half drow as basically humans who have used their bonus feat to get Darkvision.

[bean illus]

I've never met a DM who didn't give me a mundane disguise bonus (no penalty) for disguising as 'other race' human or elf, but it's a small and situational bonus.

Low light vision has situational uses in some campaigns, but is dominated by other simple low level options.

All in all a character role playing option (that i've always liked).

OH, and there ARE a few prc entry tricks that can be done with half elf (can't remember).

[Troacctid]

I like half drow simply because I think darkvision can be very handy. I've never run into a situation where "low light vision" was of any use whatsoever, but darkvision can be very handy, especially for someone who sneaks around. I think of half drow as basically humans who have used their bonus feat to get Darkvision.
Half-drow don't have darkvision. They lost it in the 3.5 update.

Humans who give up their bonus feat for darkvision are underfolk, not half-drow.

[Psyren]

Half-drow don't have darkvision. They lost it in the 3.5 update.

Humans who give up their bonus feat for darkvision are underfolk, not half-drow.

Simon may have been talking about Pathfinder, where Half-Drow (that is, Half-Elves with the "Drow-blooded" racial trait) do get darkvision.

[Vizzerdrix]

Half elves are great with a balsamic viniger, minced garlic, and minced onion drizzle. It can be a hassle baking them though. I recommend dividing them into 8ths and maranating for at leasr 24, but no more than 48 hours in the drizzle that I mentioned. If the half elf has more than 5 levels, do not add salt. Half elves that have been around tend to be salty enough.

[DEMON]

Well, in general anyway. If you want to be the child of an elf and a human, you really don't have a choice but to play as a half-elf. But you can argue with your DM to make it a little bit more attractive.

I'm getting sidetracked a bit, but is there perchance a Half-Fey'ri?

[DrMotives]

Half elves are great with a balsamic viniger, minced garlic, and minced onion drizzle. It can be a hassle baking them though. I recommend dividing them into 8ths and maranating for at leasr 24, but no more than 48 hours in the drizzle that I mentioned. If the half elf has more than 5 levels, do not add salt. Half elves that have been around tend to be salty enough.

Xanxost, an NPC blue slaad epicure & planar traveler who narrated a few chapters of various Planescape books in 2e, said he loved elves, especially when drizzled with chocolate.

[Vizzerdrix]

Xanxost, an NPC blue slaad epicure & planar traveler who narrated a few chapters of various Planescape books in 2e, said he loved elves, especially when drizzled with chocolate.

Kinky:smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

I'd argue that the humans make a better 'blank slate' in that respect, because the bonuses they do have are selectable wild cards, and thus for anything, while still not having any outright penalties. Meanwhile, the Half-elf does have some bonuses that predispose it to certain things.

By "blank slate," I don't mean that you can do anything with them—I mean that they have a minimal effect on your character's abilities. And it's pretty much undeniable that a half-elf's low-light vision and weaksauce skill bonuses will have a smaller effect on what your character can do than a bonus feat and free skill points will.

[SimonMoon6]

Simon may have been talking about Pathfinder, where Half-Drow (that is, Half-Elves with the "Drow-blooded" racial trait) do get darkvision.

I was thinking 3.0 as I never made the transition to 3.5 (because I found it utterly unreasonable to repurchase dozens of splatbooks that I had already bought).

[Fizban]

The 5e races seem at first blush to be on even footing with one another, though I don't have the experience to notice any strong advantages.
Since your ability ups come in units of +2, starting with an odd score is pretty meh. Humans get +1 to all the stats, but you probably won't have every stat at an odd number, and you don't get any +2's. Half-elf gets +2 cha, and +1 to two other scores of your choice. I'm pretty sure that's more than any other race gets except human (4 points instead of 3), with both complete choice in your secondary/tertiary placement and a focus stat. They also get two bonus skill proficiencies of your choice. I find the skill system unimpressive to say the least, but their ability scores are just a bit better than the rest. Still went with human for the character though, druid is still druid and druids doesn't care about cha.

[Psyren]

Since your ability ups come in units of +2, starting with an odd score is pretty meh.

You can up two scores by +1 though, so starting with two odd scores is viable (and then bumping them both at 4th level.)

[Fizban]

Being able to split those up is why it's only meh instead of bad. In terms of your maximum bonus there's no difference between an odd score and an even score one lower, since you'd hit the same bonus tier with either, except with the odd score you have a point to put somewhere else. If you can line up your racial +1's with an odd score at 1st, you move up to the next tier from the beginning.

[denthor]

YES 1/2 elves are good my 1/2 orc thinks they taste great and are less filling. :biggrin: