Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XII - DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT!

[Wraith]

Why do we have a fluff thread and a tabletop thread? Well, because, to put it bluntly, arguments about fluff can take up a lot of space. And that makes it hard for people to get critiques on their list. So, if you need to find out what's a good color scheme for your custom Dark Angels Successor chapter, Argue the morality of the setting yet again (Oh, how we wish you wouldn't), or even share fluff you've written for your army, here's the place.

Just remember, in the Grim Darkness of the dark future, there is only pointless bickering!

Previous Threads
I: Warning: No Fanboys Allowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105150) (:smalltongue:)
II: Heresy Grown From Idleness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128240)
III: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion III: You're Emprah? Well I didn't vote for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7807655#post7807655)
IV: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170857)
V:Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion V - WARNING: May Contain Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198131)
VI:Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion VI - They see me Ward'en, they haten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224654)
VII: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion VII - "There's A Codex Entry For That" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268676)
VIII: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion VIII - Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319635)
IX: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion IX - Post-Human Centipede (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364098-Warhammer-40k-Fluff-Thread-IX-quot-Post-human-Centipede-quot)
X: Yippe Ki-Yay, Heretic! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418495-Warhammer-40k-Fluff-Thread-X-Yippee-Ki-Yay-Heretic)
XI: Juggling Idiot Balls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476795-Warhammer-40K-Fluff-Thread-XI-Juggling-Idiot-Balls)

Last time in the Fluff Thread:
Are Astartes an efficient use of resources? What do you think the Imperium needs more; one guy who gets plasma'd in the face and dies, or 1 guy who dies to a stiff breeze and then 2,999 of his friends obliterate the sky in revenge?

And, Ork jokes: Blackhawk748 has demanded lots of them, so feel free to regale us with your best.

[Forum Explorer]

The statistic actually changes meaning by a lot if the applicant number includes all of those who try, fail, and aren't selected at all. As an example from the fluff, a tribe of deathworlders were competing to be in the Dark Angels, and some 50 applicants went through trials. In the end only 3 or 4 were selected, but I think there were only two fatalities in that initial test. And there was no stigma to failing that initial test, so the remaining 45 tribesmen went back to their lives just fine.

[Blackhawk748]

Look at dis shiny new thread

[DataNinja]

Look at dis shiny new thread

Too shiny. We need to cover it in red paint. That makes the conversation go faster, right? :smalltongue:

...except we need to make sure the text isn't red. That has the opposite effect.

[Blackhawk748]

But...but... Green is best. Also i need to test if putting red on bullets makes them better. For Science!!

[Bobby Baratheon]

Good thing no one can see this post . . . Now I may scheme in peace, hidden from these mindless brutes whilst I plot they're downfall! Muahahaha! Their doom approaches as we speak!!!

[LansXero]

1 thousand millions to make 1 million space marines... inst that close to 2k earth population? We are no hive world, so we're nowhere near to the overpopulated ones in the imperium, and it spans the entire galaxy. So thats pretty irrelevant

[bluntpencil]

1 thousand millions to make 1 million space marines... inst that close to 2k earth population? We are no hive world, so we're nowhere near to the overpopulated ones in the imperium, and it spans the entire galaxy. So thats pretty irrelevant

And that's assuming all failures or overlooked individuals die - they generally don't.

[LeSwordfish]

Another question I had - what did the non-istvaan legions do with their loyalists? We know that all the loyalists in the first four chapters were virus bombed - or, that was the plan- and the Thousand Sons didn't really turn at all, but what about those in the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers? Did no loyalists from those legions escape with a warning whatsoever, or did 0% of those legions remain loyal?

[Wraith]

1 thousand millions to make 1 million space marines... inst that close to 2k earth population? We are no hive world, so we're nowhere near to the overpopulated ones in the imperium, and it spans the entire galaxy. So thats pretty irrelevant

One thousand million is 1 billion. And from the sources we have so far, it's a number actually closer to being between 2 billion (Imperial Fists) and 10billion (Grey Knights).

The low-ball estimate is more than half of all Earth's (which by 40k standards is a medium-sized Civilised World) male population. And I don't know about you, but I don't think that a quarter of all the people I have ever known are suitable Astartes candidates... :smalltongue:

But anyway, that's besides the original point, maybe. The question was, could the Crusade have ever succeeded with Astartes, or were they flawed from the start. I think we've quite reasonably decided that no, the Crusade would have been far more successful if only humans had been involved (certainly by the point of the Heresy), BUT having said that Astartes are good value if you are using them properly and in the roles that they are actually suited for, not just lining them up against each other and waiting for them to all maim each other. Which only one or two of the Primarchs were doing sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

[Grim Portent]

Another question I had - what did the non-istvaan legions do with their loyalists? We know that all the loyalists in the first four chapters were virus bombed - or, that was the plan- and the Thousand Sons didn't really turn at all, but what about those in the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers? Did no loyalists from those legions escape with a warning whatsoever, or did 0% of those legions remain loyal?

The Word Bearers killed most of their loyalists over the course of several decades leading up to the Heresy itself, quietly murdering them where no one would notice anything amiss.

The Night Lords probably had barely any loyalists anyway, and would have just flat out butchered them after turning. Squad loyalty was never their strong point, so any loyalist was probably surrounded by people who would happily kill them for a kit-kat already.

Iron Warriors I think a few did break away and try to stay loyal. Haven't they got a HH character who's just a loyalist commander?

Alpha Legion, well who really knows? They were possibly the most disciplined and loyal to their primarch of all Legions considering the stuff they would do for him like being surgically altered and indoctrinated to infiltrate other legions at the expense of their own personalities, it's possible even the loyalists continued to serve Alpharius out of trust and loyalty to him over loyalty to the Emperor or Horus. Failing that I bet they would have just been quietly killed.

[Wraith]

The Word Bearers killed most of their loyalists over the course of several decades leading up to the Heresy itself, quietly murdering them where no one would notice anything amiss.

That was also the purpose of Calth. The weakest members of the Word Bearers - the Traitors who weren't very good at it and the potential Loyalists who might waver or fail if pushed too hard, even if by Lorgar - were intentionally selected so as to die in Ultramar.


Iron Warriors I think a few did break away and try to stay loyal. Haven't they got a HH character who's just a loyalist commander?

You are thinking of Warsmith Barabas Dantioch, I believe. He stayed loyal, and was the one responsible for the pyrrhic destruction of the Pharos machine.


Alpha Legion, well who really knows? They were possibly the most disciplined and loyal to their primarch of all Legions considering the stuff they would do for him like being surgically altered and indoctrinated to infiltrate other legions at the expense of their own personalities, it's possible even the loyalists continued to serve Alpharius out of trust and loyalty to him over loyalty to the Emperor or Horus. Failing that I bet they would have just been quietly killed.

The Alpha Legion is weird, in that Alpharius/Omegon might have been loyal all along and were just playing their part. To try and guess where the loyalties of any individual part of their Legion might have fallen at any given time is a labyrinthine exercise in second-guessing and perspective. :smalltongue:

=====

I've just learned that a new novel is being published, and it's all about one of my favourite Chapters: The Carcarodons, aka, Space Sharks!

....Problem is, the front cover looks like this:

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Carcharadons_Red-Tithe.jpg


I really want to read about Carcharodons and the Night Lords murdering each other to death.... but holy crap, the artwork on that book is hideous. Just LOOK at the anatomy of that guy!

His left arm is foreshortened into a tiny little stub. His right forearm is half as long as his bicep. His hips are facing forward but his shoulders are rotated to 90 degrees as though he has no spine. His torso is nearly 5 times longer than his head ("Vitruvian Man" by Leonardo Da Vinci shows that it should be 2.5-3 times) He has teeny, tiny little child-like hands that are supposed to be thick with armoured gauntlets. He clearly can't raise his arms above his head, which itself is so short and stunted that, were he wearing a helmet, his eyes wouldn't reach the eye-holes. And he clearly can't touch his own hands in front of his chest.

I'm no professional artist, I freely admit, and I know that Astartes are supposed to be exaggerated representations of human beings.... but Christ on a bike, that artwork is BAD.

[Grim Portent]

That Night Lord in the background doesn't look too good either. :smallyuk:

His arms looks lopsided, his helmet looks distorted (it looks like it's supposed to be based off the Forgeworld Raptors helmet,) his pistol looks wafer thin, his legs look... weird is all I can think of to describe that.

I can't decide if the biggest problems here are proportions or perspective.

[Destro_Yersul]

Oh hey, I think this is the first time I've inadvertantly provided a thread name. I feel honoured.

Re: cover art: Yeah, wow, that looks kinda awful. The sideways torso reminds me of some of Rob Liefeld's stuff in particular.

[Blackhawk748]

Dat art. Not even once

[13_CBS]

You are thinking of Warsmith Barabas Dantioch, I believe. He stayed loyal, and was the one responsible for the pyrrhic destruction of the Pharos machine.


According to FW's HH books, they also had Kyr Vahlen (an Iron Warriors commander who was off somewhere else when the suppression of Olympia and Isstvan V happened) and...some other fellow whose name I forgot, who turned loyalist even after having participated in Isstvan V when, during an attack with the Alpha Legion, the Alpha Legion basically betrayed them.

[lord_khaine]

Compared to the rate humans breed? It's nothing.

Actually humans breed rather slowly, slower than just about any other mammal you can mention. And it does not matter to much. What matters is that genes are selectively being removed from the pool.


By your argument the space marines are actually beneficial then, because the alternative would be removing hundreds of thousands of the best people to use as guardsmen.

No, thats your argument. And its holding because A), those people are being removed anyway, B) only those that die are removed from the pool, C) Its not the best people used as guardsmen, its those that are spare.

[Hiro Protagonest]

One thousand million is 1 billion. And from the sources we have so far, it's a number actually closer to being between 2 billion (Imperial Fists) and 10billion (Grey Knights).

The low-ball estimate is more than half of all Earth's (which by 40k standards is a medium-sized Civilised World) male population. And I don't know about you, but I don't think that a quarter of all the people I have ever known are suitable Astartes candidates... :smalltongue:
There aren't 1 million Imperial Fists. It's 1 million Space Marines for the Imperium's billion planets. Plus, that's assuming Civilized Planet. There are also hive worlds.

Actually humans breed rather slowly, slower than just about any other mammal you can mention. And it does not matter to much. What matters is that genes are selectively being removed from the pool.
2000 people every ten years is a tiny, tiny fraction of that. And I believe others have already tried to tell you that no, the genes aren't important. I haven't look into the scientific field enough to say. Even if they somehow are, again, tiny, tiny fraction.

No, thats your argument. And its holding because A), those people are being removed anyway, B) only those that die are removed from the pool, C) Its not the best people used as guardsmen, its those that are spare.

A) And if they're guardsmen, it's a hell of a lot more of them
B) The Imperial Guard specializes in attrition meatgrinders
C) Guardsmen tithes are selected from the best soldiers of a planet's defense force. Only planets like Cadia are allowed to send "spares"

[Brookshw]

Actually humans breed rather slowly,

This leaves me wondering, how quickly do Tau....breed? Copulate? Multiply? Show themselves as an emperor-less heathen mass expanding by the imperiums grace so that our noble citizenry may see their impure faces and know the righteous desire to cleanse with fire?

[Wraith]

There aren't 1 million Imperial Fists. It's 1 million Space Marines for the Imperium's billion planets. Plus, that's assuming Civilized Planet. There are also hive worlds.
2000 people every ten years is a tiny, tiny fraction of that. And I believe others have already tried to tell you that no, the genes aren't important. I haven't look into the scientific field enough to say. Even if they somehow are, again, tiny, tiny fraction.

I believe you misunderstand me. I meant that, to create 1 million Marines according to the Imperial Fist source that Cheesegear cited - 2000 candidates per Marine - not to create 1 million Imperial Fists. Similarly, that's just what is necessary to create the current existing Astartes - it does not also include the uncountable millions(?) who have died over the 10 millenia between 30 and 40k.

Also, could I please ask where you got the "every 10 years" from? Because different Chapters have different conscription rates than others, ranging from "constant" to "once every few grown generations", and that's a strange average to pick.

Thirdly, you're hugely underestimating the effect of cumulative genetic progress through the human species. Case in point; a 2003 study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180246/) showed that 8% of men in what used to be the Mongol Empire share a common Y-chromosome, which has further spread to include approximately 0.5% of every person on the planet. It is believed that man was Ghengis Khan, who was known to have at least 40 recognised sons (not including daughters and bastards) who also went on to procreate in fantastic abundance.
An extreme example, yes. However, if it's true then it means that 1,000 years later, Ghengis Khan (or at least someone around his era) potentially has 35million living descendants with traceable DNA, discounting the pyramid of people who have since lived and died, possibly childless.

Now, assume that instead of one guy with strong genetics, it was 2billion strong, healthy, intelligent people donating their prime DNA back to the human race over ten times the timespan. It suggests a huge number of offspring over many, many generations with superior genetics contributing to that of the Imperium, and again add in the 'pyramid' of those who lived before and since doing the same thing - I don't think that's an insignificant number, and it's increasing the average of human genetic efficiency along the way.

[Cheesegear]

I believe you misunderstand me. I meant that, to create 1 million Marines according to the Imperial Fist source that Cheesegear cited - 2000 candidates per Marine - not to create 1 million Imperial Fists.

Correctly, it's 2000 10 year-olds, to create 3 Neophytes, 2 of whom died while Scouts. It's also really, really, really important to point out that the Imperial Fists didn't just murder 1997 children. They sent most of them back into the population.


Also, could I please ask where you got the "every 10 years" from? Because different Chapters have different conscription rates than others, ranging from "constant" to "once every few grown generations", and that's a strange average to pick.

Every 10 years actually does makes sense; You skim off the current 10-12 year-olds, you take a look at the 8-9 year-olds to see if there are any of those you should take for later. Now that you have the current 'crop', you don't have to come back for a while. Since your recruitment age is 10 years old, you can come back exactly ten years later and get the next crop. But, 'constant', means once every three years or so (9-12 year olds, come back three years later and get the next ones), or, 1-3 times per decade.

If you live on a planet like Fenris, where the population isn't actually that big, then the Wolves might come down every 20-30 years (once a generation) to grab some little kids.

What we do know, is that even though the Marines do this, and skim the best and brightest off any given planet, is that the Imperium hasn't backslid into something worse. The thing holding back the Imperium isn't Marine recruitment rates. What's holding back the Imperium is the Ecclesiarchy and Mars' stranglehold on technology; Thinking for yourself is bad.

[LansXero]

I really liked the 1d4chan approach of "technology sucks because the theoretical basis for it are gone, and people only preserva knowledge through rite and repetition." When you are handling world-destroying weapons, you dont wanna try to re-discover the basics through trial and error. Specially because the imperium is at all times under siege, with ever increasing demands for working vehicales, ships, weapons, titans, etc. What time is there for academic re-discovery? What progress can be done without a solid base of understanding, that isnt also incredibly reckless and potentially lethal?

[Cheesegear]

What time is there for academic re-discovery? What progress can be done without a solid base of understanding, that isnt also incredibly reckless and potentially lethal?

There's heaps of time. Except you have to do your academic research in secret where nobody can find you. When you eventually do invent something new, it must work 100%, every time, with minimal to no risk. Once you've got your idea up and running with no downsides, only then will Mars accept your new invention, and they can't ever find out about prototypes and failed projects, because Failure and Heresy are the same thing, and they can't officially condone alteration of an STC - because then everyone will do it.

Alternatively, give your ideas to a Space Marine Chapter. If Mars thinks a Techmarine came up with the weapon, they aren't going to say no.

[Closet_Skeleton]

one guy with strong genetics


prime DNA


superior genetics

Are we really having this discussion :smallsigh:

More genes are lost in regular every day Meiosis than would be lost by skimming off a tiny fraction of a population.

Intelligence is part of the phenotype which is the result of a combination of hundreds of genes, all of which will be common in the general population. If you want to increase the chance of a exceptional individual popping up, you want as diverse a genepool as possible to give the most chances of every potential phenotype popping up.

Sure smart people tend to have smart kids, but they also tend to have kids with developmental disorders so culling smart people could actually increase the general effectiveness of the population, its really hard to know. You can look at basically any historical dynasty to see that intergenerational competence is incredibly variable. Just look at your own Gengis Khan example, exactly how many super conquering super warlords has this random bit of trivia led to exactly*?

If you want the phenotype of an individual to have an actual effect on the phenotypes of later generations, you have to do actual selective breeding. Which millenia of animal experiments shows to only create specialised breeds with a lot of health problems, not 'superior individuals' whatever that would even mean anyway.

They have cloning vats in 40k so they can just double every astartes candidate and throw the spare back in.

:smallsigh:

*you can probably argue 3 but none of those were literally Temujin mark 2

[Bobby Baratheon]

Is the amount of genes "lost" to Space Marine production any more "dangerous" to human genetic diversity than the amount lost through plagues, war, etc? In other words, if those one hundred (or one thousand or whatever) candidates had died to a plague instead of applying to be a space marine, would humanity (a galactic civilization with an unfathomably huge population) as a whole be any better or worse off? That's ignoring the fact that most applicants don't even die.

[LansXero]

The question was, could the Crusade have ever succeeded with Astartes, or were they flawed from the start. I think we've quite reasonably decided that no, the Crusade would have been far more successful if only humans had been involved (certainly by the point of the Heresy), BUT having said that Astartes are good value if you are using them properly and in the roles that they are actually suited for, not just lining them up against each other and waiting for them to all maim each other. Which only one or two of the Primarchs were doing sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

I dont think there was every any way in which the crusade could've survived without the Astartes. You cant teleport / torpedo in guardsmen when the xeno navy has you beat and hope they'll do anything more than up the casualty count, given they are regular humans in tight spaces (so superior numbers mean nothing) vs space ninjas who live in bullet time / brutes who keep fighting even with their heads chopped off, etc.

Take one of the first fights in the HH books, the one with the spiders. Guardsmen would've been routed and trashed without so much as a chance. Or the interex. Or Ullanor.

You are probably thinking of the Imperial Guard 100 years after the start of the crusade, now able to recruit and draw resources from all the worlds the Legions have reconquered. The Imperium would've never gotten that far with just the Imperial Guard drawing manpower and resources from Terra alone.

[LCP]

Why are close-up boarding tactics necessary to win though? Couldn't you win by just having better ships, or more ships, or more, better ships?

Particularly when talking about an empire that refuses to utilise other species' technology, boarding is really not a great idea. You have to come to close quarters with an enemy spaceship that presumably has weapons with ranges that are best measured in hundreds of thousands of kilometres (if not far more - I think the fluff is inconsistent on weapon ranges in space, but for solid projectiles it can be effectively infinite if firing at a stationary or perpendicularly closing target). And the most benefit you're going to get out if it is scuttling the alien ship, since you refuse to use it - so you might as well have blown it up from range anyway.

Human ships are different of course - but then your human boarders only have to fight human crew.

[shadow_archmagi]

Didn't the spiders live on their own planet and have no technology, just really sharp hands? I feel like that's one of those scenarios where the guard would've fared better than Marines. Why not bring four weak guys without armor, as long as you're facing enemies that can kill the toughest, most heavily armored guy?

[Artanis]

I dont think there was every any way in which the crusade could've survived without the Astartes. You cant teleport / torpedo in guardsmen when the xeno navy has you beat and hope they'll do anything more than up the casualty count, given they are regular humans in tight spaces (so superior numbers mean nothing) vs space ninjas who live in bullet time / brutes who keep fighting even with their heads chopped off, etc.

Take one of the first fights in the HH books, the one with the spiders. Guardsmen would've been routed and trashed without so much as a chance. Or the interex. Or Ullanor.

You are probably thinking of the Imperial Guard 100 years after the start of the crusade, now able to recruit and draw resources from all the worlds the Legions have reconquered. The Imperium would've never gotten that far with just the Imperial Guard drawing manpower and resources from Terra alone.

IMO, the Crusade as it was operated would have had no chance without Space Marines. There are some fights that you simply cannot win without the concentration of force represented by Astartes. The oft-mentioned teleport attacks are one such example.

But that isn't the point.

The point is that without the Space Marines, the Great Crusade would not have been conducted that way, and instead, the humans presumably would've come up with some other way of doing things that would have worked out better in the end. Boarding action too difficult without super-soldiers? That's fine, just keep shooting giant guns at the target until everything aboard is dead, then let the salvage crews do the boarding. Hardened target that you can only teleport a small number of troops into? That's fine, you can just teleport in a nuke instead of super-soldiers that take years to train and equip. Enemy holes up in a mega-fortress that the Army can't breach? That's fine, because while rocks aren't free, they're sure as hell plentiful. And so forth.

[13_CBS]

Some thoughts on the necessity of Astartes to the Great Crusade:

1) It's possible that Astartes are ultimately more resource efficient than a given unit of normal humans with access to the same amount of resources:
Suppose that you have 100,000 Astartes who are as heavily and thoroughly equipped as, say, the Ultramarines Legion during the height of the Great Crusade. Suppose that the time, money, manpower, labor, and other material expenses necessary for making and maintaining such a Legion can be boiled down so that it all costs X "units" of resources.
Now suppose you have whatever number of normal humans who are well-equipped and well trained such that the time, money, manpower, labor, and other material expenses necessary for making and maintaining such a group of humans also equals X "units" of resources. This means both this mortal human regiment and our hypothetical Legion "cost" the same amount of resources.

Given how powerful Astartes are portrayed in the fluff, it's possible that there were enough scenarios over the course of the Great Crusade that a Legion fulfilling its objectives costs the Imperium only 1% of X units of resources, while the mortal human regiment would have to expend 5% of X units of resources to achieve the same goal. Yes, the mortal human regiment could throw more bodies or munitions at the objective (assuming there were no "capture this thing intact" scenarios), but after a certain point that becomes resource-inefficient. What if by time you can burn through that giant Xeno death-ship's hull you've melted all your ships' firing mechanisms for their lances, and there's so many mortal human bodies clogging up the death-ship's corridors that your troops can't meaningfully board it anymore? And so forth.

If the Imperium were wanting for resources, especially during the early-mid stages of the Crusade, it's possible that the Astartes were simply the most resource-efficient way of conquering the galaxy or even that the Imperium would have run out of men and materiel before they could finish the Great Crusade had they not had something like the Astartes.

2) Related to the above: I find it reasonable to think that, after a certain point, humans under the command of the Emperor would flat out refuse to keep sending their sons and daughters into horrifying meat grinders. Sure, maybe those Black Judges could be overcome if you keep throwing enough regiments of mortal humans at it...but after a certain point when entire populations of Imperial planets are sorely lacking in working adults due to conscription, people are gonna get pissed off.

Of course, the Imperium never was a democracy even in its golden years, but even tyrants can't piss off too many of their subjects lest they get mass rebellions. By creating a separate "warrior-race" who can tackle the really brutal battles of the Great Crusade, you can keep the populace somewhat more under control.

-

Of course, as Wraith points out the fact that half the Legions rebelled kinda ruined the entire Great Crusade anyway.:smalltongue: Sorry Emps, but if you're going to entrust the single most powerful institution in the galaxy (the Legions) to 18 guys, you better make double extra sure that those 18 guys are 100% completely loyal to you, love you, and never ever rebel.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Of course, the Imperium never was a democracy even in its golden years, but even tyrants can't piss off too many of their subjects lest they get mass rebellions. By creating a separate "warrior-race" who can tackle the really brutal battles of the Great Crusade, you can keep the populace somewhat more under control.

That's an interesting point. I'd never really looked at the Astartes like a separate warrior race. It does make a certain sort of sense (especially considering the Emperor's hubris) to have your warrior race be genetically derived, after a fashion, from the leader. It almost reminds of the Goths' system once they subjugated Italy. Which, if the Emperor was Theodoric, is kinda funny.

[The Glyphstone]

It kinda also makes sense for the Emperor's psychology, as much as we know of it. He was an extreme humanist, to the point where one of his design features built into the Astartes was sterility specifically so they could not become Homo Superior by means of breeding and replacing humanity. That part of him might also have fond the appeal in a non-human warrior-race specifically designed to fight humanity's battles and die in their stead at a far more beneficial loss ratio.

[Brookshw]

Need suggestions for goff rocker band name. So far the contenders are Gwaaagh (gwar+waaagh), Morkies, Dr. Teef n der lectric mayhm, DC/DC (I'm told AC/DC's referred to as akka dakka in Australia, dunno if its accurate). Any thoughts or alt. suggestions?

[bluntpencil]

Need suggestions for goff rocker band name. So far the contenders are Gwaaagh (gwar+waaagh), Morkies, Dr. Teef n der lectric mayhm, DC/DC (I'm told AC/DC's referred to as akka dakka in Australia, dunno if its accurate). Any thoughts or alt. suggestions?

Meganob. Play on 'Megadeth'.

[Drasius]

...DC/DC (I'm told AC/DC's referred to as akka dakka in Australia, dunno if its accurate)

100% accurate, though it's generally only the, ahem, less cultured members of society that do so.

[LCP]

Nothing's gonna beat your original idea of Doktor Teef and da Elektrik Mayhem.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Pick your favorite one and have the rest be rival bands, or just the Goff Rokkas names for enemy factions.

[deuterio12]

It kinda also makes sense for the Emperor's psychology, as much as we know of it. He was an extreme humanist, to the point where one of his design features built into the Astartes was sterility specifically so they could not become Homo Superior by means of breeding and replacing humanity. That part of him might also have fond the appeal in a non-human warrior-race specifically designed to fight humanity's battles and die in their stead at a far more beneficial loss ratio.

Every warrior-race dude demands about a hundred humies sacrificed.

And that's before taking in account the 50% betrayal rate of said warrior race that'll go renegade or start worshiping daemonic forces at the drop of an hat. Or the ones that are supposedly loyal and will still kill humies just to drink/bathe on their blood.

And then the Imperium still deploys millions/billions/trillions of poorly trained/equiped humies as vanguard forces before the warrior-race comes in their shiny drop pods to (try to) claim victory after the enemy has wasted all their ammo on the normal humies.

Heck, remembers me of the last Tau splatbook where when the Imperium retreats, priority is given to the warrior-race to get to safety first, while most normal humies (both civilians and military) are just left behind to die.

As a final note, the record-holder for most efficient military force of the Imperium is still held by a normal humie leading 7 regiments of humies (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Macharius).

[13_CBS]

E
As a final note, the record-holder for most efficient military force of the Imperium is still held by a normal humie leading 7 regiments of humies (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Macharius).

To be fair, said humie might not have faced the same kind of horrors the humies of the Great Crusade faced back in the day.

[The Glyphstone]

At this point, deuterio, I'm starting to question why you even post in these threads other than to troll people - your claims range from unverifiable opinion to heavily distorted interpretations of canon to outright false and go down from there. Not to mention your lack of understanding of basic statistics, as demonstrated by once again waving around a supposed '50% betrayal rate' of Space Marines; one single instance of half the current population of the Astartes turning traitor at one specific point in the 10,000 years of the existence of their kind does not correlate to a persistent tendency for half of them to turn traitor prior to or after that time.

[13_CBS]

a supposed '50% betrayal rate' of Space Marines

(If we want to get specific, I'd even dare say that less than 50% of all Astartes in existence at the time of Isstvan III and V went traitor. Keep in mind that large portions of the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children were deemed too loyalist to turn traitor, i.e. would have been loyalists during the Heresy but for getting wiped out early on in the conflict. On top of that, one of the Traitor Legions was tiny (Thousand Sons) and one of the Loyalist Legions was ginormous (Ultramarines, who were something like ~250% larger than the average Legion of 100,000). Overall, I'd say less than half the total number of Space Marines sided with Horus.)

[LeSwordfish]

Hell, you can argue definitions and quibbles that the Thousand Sons - and maybe the alpha legion too - didn't turn traitor at all.

[Brookshw]

Hell, you can argue definitions and quibbles that the Thousand Sons - and maybe the alpha legion too - didn't turn traitor at all.

You assume people would argue and quibble on the internet? Sir!

[Blackhawk748]

Hell, you can argue definitions and quibbles that the Thousand Sons - and maybe the alpha legion too - didn't turn traitor at all.

Ya, we still have no idea what Alpha Legion is freaking up to. I mean this could just be the longest con in history.

[LansXero]

Weren't the wolves huge at the time too? I think that after all the heresy's meat grinder, the starting % of loyalists vs traitors had to be much larger than 50%, otherwise Horus wouldn'tve been so hell bent on breaking every legion before moving forward. Sure, the Emperor probably account for a lot of that, but if he had started with half the Astartes and then Istvaan and prospero happened, then that would mean the Imperium was done for,

[Cheesegear]

Hell, you can argue definitions and quibbles that the Thousand Sons - and maybe the alpha legion too - didn't turn traitor at all.

Magnus got the sweet, sweet 'Join or Die' deal. It's kind of hard to refuse. But, from that point, he was definitely Traitor. Magnus definitely showed up for The Battle of The Fang, where he was quite clearly fighting for Chaos, even if his reasons were fairly flimsy. But, it is a Space Marine Battles book, where motivations are flimsy to begin with to make room for Bolter Porn a Dreadnought body-slamming Magnus off a cliff.

Alpha Legion are definitely Traitor. What can be argued is whether or not Alpharius was truly a Traitor. True to form, Alpharius' Legion has no idea what Alpharius' true plan was (Praetorian of Dorn), but, Omegon seems quite willing to fight for Chaos, so, the Alpha Legion are definitely Traitors. At the very least, the Alpha Legion, themselves, seem to be quite willing to destroy the Imperium. In the end, though, Alpharius Omegon fights for himself, and Omegon's goals seem to line up with Horus', making them Traitors.

Summary: Alpharius wasn't a Traitor, but Omegon and the rest of the Alpha Legion, are.


Ya, we still have no idea what Alpha Legion is freaking up to.

Yes we do. Read more books.

[Wraith]

Weren't the wolves huge at the time too? I think that after all the heresy's meat grinder, the starting % of loyalists vs traitors had to be much larger than 50%, otherwise Horus wouldn'tve been so hell bent on breaking every legion before moving forward. Sure, the Emperor probably account for a lot of that, but if he had started with half the Astartes and then Istvaan and prospero happened, then that would mean the Imperium was done for,

Various estimates from sources of varying reliability, but...

Loyalists (Pre-Istvaan V):
Ultramarines - 250,000
Blood Angels - 120,000
Iron Hands - 113,000
Imperial Fists - 100,000
Salamanders - 89,000
Raven Guard - 80,000
White Scars - 100,000 (approx)
Dark Angels - 150,000 (approx)
Space Wolves - 100,000 (approx)
Total: 1,102,000 (approx) Astartes

Traitors (Pre-Istvaan III):
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000
Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000
World Eaters - 150,000
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000
Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000
Emperor's Children - 110,000
Death Guard - 95,000
Alpha Legion - 90,000 to 180,000
Thousand Sons - 10,000
Total: 1,015,000 to 1,315,000 Astartes

The Traitors lose approximately 1/3rd of the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children at Istvaan III (approx 170,000), though the Loyalists immediately lose some ~230,000 from the board at Istvaan V and the White Scars and Imperial Fists are kept out of the fighting until the Siege of Terra, when the war finally comes to the sons of Dorn and the Khan finally reveals which side he's on.
The Loyalists are heavily outnumbered at every turn, except for Ultramar where they are merely ambushed and slaughtered by a size 1/3rd their size before they finally get their act together.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Various estimates from sources of varying reliability, but...

Loyalists (Pre-Istvaan V):
Ultramarines - 250,000
Blood Angels - 120,000
Iron Hands - 113,000
Imperial Fists - 100,000
Salamanders - 89,000
Raven Guard - 80,000
White Scars - 100,000 (approx)
Dark Angels - 150,000 (approx)
Space Wolves - 100,000 (approx)
Total: 1,102,000 (approx) Astartes

Traitors (Pre-Istvaan III):
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000
Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000
World Eaters - 150,000
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000
Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000
Emperor's Children - 110,000
Death Guard - 95,000
Alpha Legion - 90,000 to 180,000
Thousand Sons - 10,000
Total: 1,015,000 to 1,315,000 Astartes

The Traitors lose approximately 1/3rd of the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children at Istvaan III (approx 170,000), though the Loyalists immediately lose some ~230,000 from the board at Istvaan V and the White Scars and Imperial Fists are kept out of the fighting until the Siege of Terra, when the war finally comes to the sons of Dorn and the Khan finally reveals which side he's on.
The Loyalists are heavily outnumbered at every turn, except for Ultramar where they are merely ambushed and slaughtered by a size 1/3rd their size before they finally get their act together.

Is this counting the loyalist elements present within in many of the traitor legions?

[13_CBS]

Is this counting the loyalist elements present within in many of the traitor legions?

I'm not sure if there were very many Loyalist Traitors or Traitor loyalists, or at least enough to tip the scales very much. There's Barbaras Dantioch, Kyr Vahlen, and some of the guys who wound up joining the Knights Errant, but it doesn't sound like there were much more than a few thousand of them, at most.


*Statistics*

I generally agree with this analysis (gosh, there were that many Iron Warriors at the time of the Heresy? :smalleek:), but the question was how many Space Marines turned traitor, not how many Traitors the Loyalists had to fight during the HH. That said, if we assume the higher estimates for the Traitors' numerical strength at the time of Isstvan III, it does look like more than 50% of all Space Marines were turncoats (and vice versa if we assume the lower estimates for the Traitors).

Though, I thought the White Scars were much smaller than 100,000. :smallconfused: That said, I have nothing to back this up other than something I read on the internet somewhere about how the White Scars were tiny, possibly less than 10,000 by the end of Chondax.

[Wraith]

Is this counting the loyalist elements present within in many of the traitor legions?

The numbers I found are pre-Heresy, post-Ullanor as far as I am aware. The Legions are approximately this big during the novel Horus Rises. So no, it does not take into account Traitor elements, or even the Loyalist elements (those who would go on to be Blood Ravens, etc) but we could probably make a rough estimate if we were inclined to really study the first 5 books in the HH series and make complete notes as we went.

I, however, am not so inclined. :smalltongue:


I generally agree with this analysis (gosh, there were that many Iron Warriors at the time of the Heresy? :smalleek:), but the question was how many Space Marines turned traitor, not how many Traitors the Loyalists had to fight during the HH. That said, if we assume the higher estimates for the Traitors' numerical strength at the time of Isstvan III, it does look like more than 50% of all Space Marines were turncoats (and vice versa if we assume the lower estimates for the Traitors).

Galaxy In Flames and Flight of the Eisenstein roughly agree that the Sons of Horus, the Death Guard, the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters purged about 1/3rd of their force on Istvaan III, although it isn't very clear whether or not that was an even split among the four Legions. Presumably, the World Eaters had far less Loyalist members due to their background and the Nails, though I say that entirely as supposition.
Meanwhile only very small pockets of Loyalist Legions had dissenters - the White Scars having the most famous examples until after the heresy when Caliban falls.

So yes, assuming the higher-end figures of Legion size, "about 50/50" probably isn't too far off the mark.


Though, I thought the White Scars were much smaller than 100,000. :smallconfused: That said, I have nothing to back this up other than something I read on the internet somewhere about how the White Scars were tiny, possibly less than 10,000 by the end of Chondax.

The White Scars' numbers is the one with the weakest support of all the sources that I could find; enough just hasn't been written about them yet, so most people simply went with "average sized Legion" until they're disproved. The Space Wolves are similar, though A Thousand Sons and Burning of Prospero suggests that the Wolves outnumber the Sons VERY heavily so 100,000 might not be a bad guess.

[houlio]

Various estimates from sources of varying reliability, but...

Loyalists (Pre-Istvaan V):
Ultramarines - 250,000
Blood Angels - 120,000
Iron Hands - 113,000
Imperial Fists - 100,000
Salamanders - 89,000
Raven Guard - 80,000
White Scars - 100,000 (approx)
Dark Angels - 150,000 (approx)
Space Wolves - 100,000 (approx)
Total: 1,102,000 (approx) Astartes

Traitors (Pre-Istvaan III):
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000
Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000
World Eaters - 150,000
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000
Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000
Emperor's Children - 110,000
Death Guard - 95,000
Alpha Legion - 90,000 to 180,000
Thousand Sons - 10,000
Total: 1,015,000 to 1,315,000 Astartes

The Traitors lose approximately 1/3rd of the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children at Istvaan III (approx 170,000), though the Loyalists immediately lose some ~230,000 from the board at Istvaan V and the White Scars and Imperial Fists are kept out of the fighting until the Siege of Terra, when the war finally comes to the sons of Dorn and the Khan finally reveals which side he's on.
The Loyalists are heavily outnumbered at every turn, except for Ultramar where they are merely ambushed and slaughtered by a size 1/3rd their size before they finally get their act together.

I think I read in First Heretic that the Word Bearers were the second largest legion after the Ultramarines. Can't remember for sure though. This also is before they go on their crazy crusade all the way towards the Eye of Terror as well.

[Red Planet]

So, what with the upcoming Prospero boxed game, I wanted to ask if there would be a fluffy way to justify using the Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons in a 40K game? Ie, a way to handwave the armour and a colour scheme that would work in both settings. I've seen suggestions that apparently 'Magnus loyalists' in the legion still have the red colour scheme (which I really like compared to the blue and yellow) but I have no idea of the veracity of that. Any thoughts?

[Cheesegear]

I've seen suggestions that apparently 'Magnus loyalists' in the legion still have the red colour scheme...

So...Blood Ravens, then? :smallwink:

[Drasius]

So, what with the upcoming Prospero boxed game, I wanted to ask if there would be a fluffy way to justify using the Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons in a 40K game? Ie, a way to handwave the armour and a colour scheme that would work in both settings. I've seen suggestions that apparently 'Magnus loyalists' in the legion still have the red colour scheme (which I really like compared to the blue and yellow) but I have no idea of the veracity of that. Any thoughts?

Magnus and his merry men do rock the original legion colours, but IIRC, Magnus sent away numerous ships beforehand, again, IIRC, the majority of the 4th was sent offworld before the wolves arrived in system. The usual suspects of warp travel bending time for the crew could apply, though they would still be affected by the rubric, so you're pretty much stuck with sorcerers and suits of dust with bolters.

There are also renegades who have left magnus and the planet of the sorcerers but also don't follow ahriman, they may keep their original colours, with any tag-alongs possibly adopting the colours of their leaders (explaining away thousand sons heavy weapons squads, bikes, jump infantry and heavy vehicles without being daemonically possessed).

Or you could just shrug your shoulders and reply that Tzeentch works in mysterious ways and that they have a place in His great plan at all (being crushed by you, obviously) is more honour than they deserve and they should consider themselves lucky.

[Red Planet]

Sounds do-able then, thanks for the help :smallsmile:

[t209]

Of course, as Wraith points out the fact that half the Legions rebelled kinda ruined the entire Great Crusade anyway.:smalltongue: Sorry Emps, but if you're going to entrust the single most powerful institution in the galaxy (the Legions) to 18 guys, you better make double extra sure that those 18 guys are 100% completely loyal to you, love you, and never ever rebel.
Well, would have been if they were not teleported across the galaxy by Chaos gods.
Maybe they would be different had they've been raised by Emperor rather than varying assortments of parents or themselves (Again Mortarion wouldn't have daddy issues, Lorgar wouldn't take interest in theology, Conrad might have happy-ish background, and Angron wouldn't be angry. On the other hand, not sure Corax as obedient overseer might be good trade-off).

[Artanis]

I dunno. Considering that the Emperor found Horus almost instantly...

[hamishspence]

Galaxy In Flames and Flight of the Eisenstein roughly agree that the Sons of Horus, the Death Guard, the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters purged about 1/3rd of their force on Istvaan III, although it isn't very clear whether or not that was an even split among the four Legions. Presumably, the World Eaters had far less Loyalist members due to their background and the Nails, though I say that entirely as supposition.

The Forgeworld books went into a bit more detail:

From book 1: Betrayal

Death Guard
"Deployed to the surface of Isstvan III it is believed were a little under 1/3 of the Legion's forces."

Emperor's Children
"Of these, perhaps a quarter to a third were marked for death on Isstvan III."

Sons of Horus
"Given the accounts of the battle on Isstvan III from those that survived it, it seems likely that the culled elements represented something approaching a third of the Sons of Horus."

World Eaters
"Perhaps three quarters of this number accompanied their Primarch to Isstvan III and of these a full third were placed into the first attack wave, and betrayed unto their deaths on the surface."

The World Eaters seem to have a somewhat smaller proportion of the total Legion targeted in the virus bombing (3/4 of 1/3, rather than 1/3) but not by much.

[Brother Oni]

This might interest some people here - a group of professionals tried to build a semi functional chainsword (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gj8pAN7Y7E).

[LeSwordfish]

What order are the Garro/Knight Errant novels/novellas/audiobooks in? Garro is My Man (i'm converting up a version of him) but I can't find a reading order for that specific set of books.

[Cheesegear]

What order are the Garro/Knight Errant novels/novellas/audiobooks in? Garro is My Man (i'm converting up a version of him) but I can't find a reading order for that specific set of books.

Garro
Book: Flight of the Eisenstein

ADs
Oath of Moment
Legion of One
Sword of Truth
Burden of Duty/Grey Angel
Book: Vengeful Spirit goes here. But Garro isn't in it.
Shield of Lies

Book: Vow of Faith

I haven't read Ghosts Speak Not or Patience. I never read Lost Sons, mostly because I felt the plot seemed really boring, and I don't even like Rubio that much anyway. The Knights-Errant (not Garro) are mentioned at the very, very end of The Path of Heaven.

[Wraith]

Garro is My Man (i'm converting up a version of him) ....

No love for the Forgeworld model? Or just a project that you felt like working on?

[LeSwordfish]

I love the forgeworld model! I just also love the £30 that is the difference between the price of the FW model, and the price of buying the distinctive torso and cloak on ebay.

[Grim Portent]

Since I've recently begun working on a HH army I've started thinking about something strange about the progression of power armour variants.

Mk5 Heresy pattern armour is supposed to be simpler, cruder and easier to manufacture than the previous armour patterns, which is all well and good. But why does it look so different from them?

Mks2 and 3 were the same basic design, with the latter being derived from the former and Mk4 was designed almost from scratch to be better in many ways than it's precursors.

But Mk5 was literally designed in the dawning of the Heresy, when innovation was less than suitable, and bears only a superficial resemblance to the older armours. The backpack is different, the leg plates are different, the arms are different, the torso is different and the helmet is completely different from anything that precedes it.

Mks6 and 7 bear a resemblance to Mk5, but that's because they are in part based off it due to it's prevalence in the later years of the Heresy and the Scouring.

Where and when did the design for the power helmet (and the rest of the suit, but especially the helmet) diverge so far from the Crusade and Maximus patterns?

[Cheesegear]

Mks2 and 3 were the same basic design, with the latter being derived from the former and Mk4 was designed almost from scratch to be better in many ways than it's precursors.

Mk.2 was basically a spacesuit. It's goal was to allow Astartes to fight in the void and on hostile atmospheres. Mk.2 is garbage for stealth.

Mk.3 did not replace Mk.2. Mks 2 and 3 were used at the same time, for different purposes. Mk.3 is designed for massive frontal assaults, and provides little protection in the rear. A Marine in Mk.3 is supposed to run forwards and never look back. Mk.3 was whether by intention or design, great for turtling, and fighting in a circle or back-to-back. Mk.3 is was the preferred armour for Breacher Teams, small, enclosed spaces where moving forwards means you probably killed the guys in front. A significant aspect of Mk.3 was the sloped helmet, which can deflect sold shot weapons to the left and right, and provided as the prototype for the helmets of Mk.4 and 6.

Mk.4 replaced Mk.2, with the sloped helmet design from Mk.3. Similar to Batman, and unlike Mk.3, a major design feature of the Mk.4 was that the Marine could now turn his head without moving his entire torso.

Mk.5 was trash armour. Designed during the Heresy where resources were slim, and basically garbage. The only reason that Mk.5 ever became A Thing, was because it was easier to maintain than Mk.4 in a time when resources were low, and was immediately replaced as soon as possible. The only Legions to keep Mk.5 were Traitors, because they weren't friends with Dorn, and never got the Mk.6.

Mk.6 was first seen in Deliverance Lost, when the Imperial Fists showed up and dropped crates of Mk.6 onto Deliverance. Dorn decided that the first recipients of Mk.6 armour (after himself, of course, it pays to be based in the Sol System) would be the Raven Guard, and named Mk.6 'Corvus Armour'. In return, Corax said "Check this **** out.", and gave a demonstration of the Alpha Legion's Banestrike Ammo that the Raven Guard recovered from Istvaan. Where the Loyalists immediately renamed Vengeance Rounds, and started reverse engineering the AP3 Alpha Legion tech, while also giving themselves Mk.6.

Mk.6 has the tilted faceplate of 3/4, the easier to maintain torso of 4/5, and the reinforced left shoulder plate. A right-handed Marine (Marines are ambidextrous, get it together, writers!), would walk with his left pauldron forwards (with a Boltgun, that is). A solid projectile would glance off the reinforced shoulder plate, into the Beakie helmet, and hopefully glance again.

There's no adequate reason for the change to Mk.7. The Battle for the Sol System pushed all the Tech-Priests from Mars to Terra, and they continued their work. A design feature of Mk.7 was that all parts of it were interchangeable with Mk.6. If you wanted the Beakie helmet, you could. If you wanted the helmet that actually allowed you to talk to non-Space Marines (that's what that 'grill' is by the way, an external vox), then you could use the Mk.7 helmet.

Headcanon until proven otherwise (Praetorian of Dorn means that the Battle for the Sol System has started);
Since Mk.7 was developed on Terra, not on Mars, and at the very climax of the Heresy, I'm going to assume that Dorn didn't have time for the Mechanicus to get their **** together, and just insisted that the Mk.6 was compatible with Mk.7, as armour would take damage, and instead of replacing it with more Mk.6, you could replace the damaged parts with Mk.7 - because backwards compatibility - until you eventually just had a suit of Mk.7.

[Drasius]

A right-handed Marine (Marines are ambidextrous, get it together, writers!)

While being ambidextrous is a thing, I would suggest that even then each marine would have a preference (if any of the readers out there are ambidextrous, please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong), regardless of how much they practice.

[DaedalusMkV]

While being ambidextrous is a thing, I would suggest that even then each marine would have a preference (if any of the readers out there are ambidextrous, please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong), regardless of how much they practice.

Correct. An ambidextrous person will still have a preferred hand for writing, for example, and will naturally trend towards certain behaviours normally associated with left- or right-handedness, but may vary between tasks and is much more likely to be able to switch hands effectively (for example, golfing and playing baseball lefthanded but writing with the right hand are classic results of ambidexterity). Some things just take practice, regardless of your natural aptitude with either hand, and even as an ambidextrous person I can't readily write with my left hand, since I don't have much practice with it. But I've also been known to switch hands while hammering a fence together to give each hand a rest in turn, pretty much always just reach for things with whatever hand happens to be closest to it and left-hand my mouse when using the keypad for number entry (which made one of my profs in university just about choke on his coffee, amusingly enough. It's a much handier setup, if you'll pardon the pun, even if most people think it looks really odd and most desks aren't set up for it).

That said, I can definitely see Space Marines training to use their weaponry in both hands, so they'd likely just switch hands to whatever is most tactically beneficial at the time.

[Wraith]

While being ambidextrous is a thing, I would suggest that even then each marine would have a preference (if any of the readers out there are ambidextrous, please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong), regardless of how much they practice.

This arguably doesn't apply to a military setting due to the way that guns eject spent cartridges. 20th Century Soldiers (in Britain, certainly, and I presume elsewhere) are uniformly trained to fire right-handed because spent cases are ejected out of the right-hand side of the weapon, and if you're firing left-handed then those little bits of red hot metal are going to fly out, at speed, right into the inside of your right forearm.

Of course, this might be completely ignored due to the combined presence of a) space-age guns working differently and b) Marines wearing Power Armour can probably ignore the equivalent of hot marbles being plunked against their gauntlets. But, if your soldiers are ambidextrous anyway, why take the risk if you can just hypnotherapy/train them so that right handed IS their preference? :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

This arguably doesn't apply to a military setting due to the way that guns eject spent cartridges.

Bolts are caseless ammo, there are no spent cartridges. The only reason an ejector port exists on a Boltgun is to unjam the weapon.

[DemonicAngel]

Just to chime in on the shooting ambidextrous -
1) Now a days a lot of guns come with kits so you can change the ejector port.
2) A lot of units actually teach you to shoot with both hands/side of body so you can minimise exposer when going through corners
3) Shooting with stronger arm is preferable, but i know quite a few people who shoot with their weaker arm because they feel squinting down the sight is easier with the other eye (ofcourse, some scopes make this redundant)

[Wraith]

Bolts are caseless ammo, there are no spent cartridges. The only reason an ejector port exists on a Boltgun is to unjam the weapon.

This is possibly a point of contention between different writers, but I believe it to be incorrect. On the one hand, I have seen it written that spent bolt casings from Imperial Heroes - and I'm certain that at least one of them is from Rogal Dorn, I think from the Crimson Fists novel Rynn's World - are kept as minor religious artifacts by the Faithful.

It was also very definitely wrong within the last 20 years as I've physically handled a "spent" Boltgun casing. When I was a teenager, GW made replicas of them out of brass and sent a few to some of their nearby hobby shops, and I was fortunate enough to be there and hold a "real" bolter shell in Nottingham, England. They're not quite the width of a Pringles can, for anyone who is wondering. :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

This is possibly a point of contention between different writers

Bolts have had casings since 2004. I am only learning this now. :smallyuk:


They're not quite the width of a Pringles can, for anyone who is wondering. :smalltongue:

lolwat. Bolts are .75 ammo (19mm). They absolutely should not be the size of a Pringles can. They should be...well, exactly 19mm wide.

[Brother Oni]

lolwat. Bolts are .75 ammo (19mm). They absolutely should not be the size of a Pringles can. They should be...well, exactly 19mm wide.

The bullet diameter would be 19mm, yes; the bullet length and the cartridge (which is what Wraith handled) can be more variable.

The closest real life analogue would be 20mm rounds and modern rounds can range from 20x82mm for anti-materiel rifles up to 20x139mm for AA guns (can't link appropriate pictures at work since they trigger the 'weapons' internet filter).

That said, I agree a cartridge the size of a Pringles can is a bit ridiculous unless bolt shells are some form of discarding sabot round, which I'm fairly sure they're not unless they've ret-conned it again.

[LeSwordfish]

Might that have been a Heavy Bolter shell? Seems a bit more reasonable.

[Grim Portent]

Mk.5 was trash armour. Designed during the Heresy where resources were slim, and basically garbage. The only reason that Mk.5 ever became A Thing, was because it was easier to maintain than Mk.4 in a time when resources were low, and was immediately replaced as soon as possible. The only Legions to keep Mk.5 were Traitors, because they weren't friends with Dorn, and never got the Mk.6.

Mk5 being mass produced garbage doesn't explain the sudden design shift it has from it's precursors. It would make more sense for it to look like a shoddy version of Mk2 or Mk4, instead it looks more like a shoddy version of Mk7.

[Wraith]

lolwat. Bolts are .75 ammo (19mm). They absolutely should not be the size of a Pringles can. They should be...well, exactly 19mm wide.

Hmm, okay - I may have exaggerated due to nostalgia. This was ~17 years ago, after all. It was broad enough to stand upright quite comfortably in my palm, though, so at least 3cm wasn't out of the question.


Might that have been a Heavy Bolter shell? Seems a bit more reasonable.

Quite possible. :smallsmile:


1) Now a days a lot of guns come with kits so you can change the ejector port.

Sounds like blasphemy and/or heretek to me. /Mechanicus

[Wardog]

This arguably doesn't apply to a military setting due to the way that guns eject spent cartridges. 20th Century Soldiers (in Britain, certainly, and I presume elsewhere) are uniformly trained to fire right-handed because spent cases are ejected out of the right-hand side of the weapon, and if you're firing left-handed then those little bits of red hot metal are going to fly out, at speed, right into the inside of your right forearm.

Thats just due to the standard British Army assault rifle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80) having a bad design, which, among other issues, puts the ejection port so far back that its at face level.

Most rifles have the ejection port further forward so they can be used ambidextrously, and even other bullpup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup)rifles are designed to spit the brass out in a direction other than towards the user's face.

[Cheesegear]

Might that have been a Heavy Bolter shell? Seems a bit more reasonable.

Heavy Bolters are 1.00 calibre. A Pringles can is still way too big.

[Wraith]

Having said that, this might even have been ~19 years ago - when I played in a hobby show that long ago, it was still 2nd Edition, so it's also entirely possible (in fact, as I think more and more about it, probable) that this was a 2nd Edition "Bolt Shell", and thus back when Bolters were incredible space-age superguns. Certainly, way before any credible authors had really sat down and given it some careful thought and clearly defined caliber sizes in 3rd and 4th edition lore.

[Drasius]

https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/VDo2cFgABIVfuGMTj-xN42Rf7lb4Ei18iokBIx2AorjZZkEtGmHS0HcoqsmhPdn0WbS5 W4jSrf256Mu7C5kPpA3HgCa1xzPCkNwOOVd6kV8dmPWj8AdCpx aGfnDXKD69GrA6O-Pe5-Tv8D_Ajy9DoLwxLR554fM_8VVP1-o=s0-d-e1-ft#https://gallery.mailchimp.com/136827b843bb2808e5ae537dd/images/717d0713-159c-4c82-bfbd-6610daa8cab6.jpg
https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2g6OiP-7d_cyXmv0zX6AwvOdmoGJ1fqADIeapOzY6rguzfb-inaTxbZxohI-tJ1pP8Qt1Agb9wuJQ1c1-m6-3TX9fMUcl3CtmJ6louL3jRIhx34Z5FsbKRz8jx7Ngjp27UsSTe-mV6PRA_g9biV2wCGS14wvWuvrwdVc6DA=s0-d-e1-ft#https://gallery.mailchimp.com/136827b843bb2808e5ae537dd/images/d9100a30-7c5e-4fd7-bae5-66dd7b9ab595.jpg

Garro gets his own novel, but I'm more looking forward to kingsblade. The scythes of the emperor killing nids will be cool too, and moar Huron is also good. Fabulous bill special edition is an interesting choice for the cover too. Tacky, but somehow suitable. I like it.

[Brother Oni]

Hmm, okay - I may have exaggerated due to nostalgia. This was ~17 years ago, after all. It was broad enough to stand upright quite comfortably in my palm, though, so at least 3cm wasn't out of the question.

After some googling, a pringles can is 10.5"x3" diameter or 76.2x266.7mm, which is a pretty hefty cartridge.

A 3cm diameter cartridge puts it in the 25mm round size: a 25x137mm Oerlikon KBA cartridge is ~ 38x223mm. By happy coincidence, 25mm is pretty much 1.00 calibre (well 0.98), so it's probably a heavy bolter cartridge (or more likely they saw a spent 30mm round off a British Army AFV and thought "That'll do").

Cheesegear, I have to ask - you are aware that the cartridge of a round doesn't go down the barrel and can be pretty much any size the weapon needs it to be? A .308 rifle round is significantly bigger than a .357 pistol round, despite the bullet having a smaller diameter.

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear, I have to ask - you are aware that the cartridge of a round doesn't go down the barrel and can be pretty much any size the weapon needs it to be? A .308 rifle round is significantly bigger than a .357 pistol round, despite the bullet having a smaller diameter.

If any of the following can help;

"...consider a weapon's clip to be 10% of the weapon's total weight." - Deathwatch Core Rulebook

Bolter = 18kgs x 10% = A Boltgun clip weighs 1.8 kgs.
A Boltgun clip has 28 rounds in it, making each Bolt weigh ~60g, give or take the weight of the actual magazine.

Heavy Bolter = 68kgs x 10% = An HB clip weighs 6.8 kgs
An HB clip has 60 rounds in it, making each Heavy Bolt weigh ~110g, give or take the weight of the actual magazine.

Does that help at all? Of course, those are for Astartes weapons, human-sized Boltguns are smaller.

[Destro_Yersul]

Funny enough, I recently had an argument about bolt pistol rounds being smaller than bolter rounds. It's never mentioned anywhere, but bolt pistols, at least on space marine minis and in artwork, do have smaller barrels.

[Brother Oni]

If any of the following can help;

"...consider a weapon's clip to be 10% of the weapon's total weight." - Deathwatch Core Rulebook

Bolter = 18kgs x 10% = A Boltgun clip weighs 1.8 kgs.
A Boltgun clip has 28 rounds in it, making each Bolt weigh ~60g, give or take the weight of the actual magazine.

Heavy Bolter = 68kgs x 10% = An HB clip weighs 6.8 kgs
An HB clip has 60 rounds in it, making each Heavy Bolt weigh ~110g, give or take the weight of the actual magazine.

Does that help at all? Of course, those are for Astartes weapons, human-sized Boltguns are smaller.

I think they're significantly handwaving the logistics for streamlining gameplay and the writers don't have much of a clue about military hardware (what a surprise! :smalltongue:).

For the M792 HEI round (a 25x137mm high explosive incendiary shell, which is about what a heavy bolter shell is, according to my memory), the projectile alone weighs 185g and the cartridge weighs 501g (the source I'm using doesn't indicate whether that 501g is for the whole round, just the cartridge or cartridge+primer+propellant).

This makes those listed Heavy Bolter weights stupidly light, even if they were for caseless ammunition. The 110kg 25mm M242 Bushmaster on the LAV-25 carries 400 rounds (1200 stowed) for a ready ammunition load of 200.4+kg, depending on how you count round weight. You could probably knock off a bit of weight for the M242 (it's battery driven, so has a motor for the feeder assembly), but you're still looking at approximately twice the weapon's weight in ready ammunition.
If you scaled that down to 60 rounds, it's ~30kg of HEI ammo for a 68kg HB or a 44% ratio.

Now small arms have an ~10% ammunition to weapon rate ratio (the L85 has ~15% ammo to weapon ratio for a 30 round magazine), but it doesn't scale linearly up thanks to how increases in volumes works.


On a side note, what's the listed ROF of a heavy bolter in the Deathwatch book? 60 rounds sounds very small for something in the SAW role.

[Drasius]

On a side note, what's the listed ROF of a heavy bolter in the Deathwatch book? 60 rounds sounds very small for something in the SAW role.

-/-/10 with a 150m range increment

For comparison, a bolt pistol is S/3/- with a 14 round clip and a 30m range increment, a bolter is S/2/4 with a 100m range increment

[Brother Oni]

-/-/10 with a 150m range increment

For comparison, a bolt pistol is S/3/- with a 14 round clip and a 30m range increment, a bolter is S/2/4 with a 100m range increment

Sorry, I meant Rate of Fire (how many rounds/minute), rather than Range.

While I'm sort-of familiar with tabletop terms, I'm not very familiar with Deathwatch terms. For the heavy bolter, I assume -/-/10 is short/medium/long range target number adjustments, with 150m for each range band?

[Cheesegear]

I think they're significantly handwaving the logistics for streamlining gameplay and the writers don't have much of a clue about military hardware (what a surprise! :smalltongue:).

Or, as Wraith said, it's a space magic gun with no real-world equivalent. A Bolt is a 0.75 cal, that only weighs 60g, so they simply can't be that big.


On a side note, what's the listed ROF of a heavy bolter in the Deathwatch book? 60 rounds sounds very small for something in the SAW role.

For Space Marines, that's only for clips (Traitor Marine style). You'll notice that Loyalists somehow managed to invent 'chain' technology that feeds into a backpack supply. Backpack supplies hold upwards of 200 rounds and can be fired near-continuously. The gist of a Heavy Bolter is fairly simple, if you're shooting over 200 rounds at something, they'd better be dead.

10 shots in a '6 second round' gives 1.6 shots per second. They're not actually 'machine guns', they just look like them. The Dawn of War franchise has the sounds of Boltguns completely wrong, because Bolt weapons are not machine guns. They're more like rapid fire Shotguns, like an AA12 that shoots dum dum shots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT5mlxI1XH4) (NSFW).
(The sound a Boltgun makes is supposed to sound like a monkey on a typewriter)

The 'machine gun' is a Storm Bolter.

[Rizhail]

Sorry, I meant Rate of Fire (how many rounds/minute), rather than Range.

While I'm sort-of familiar with tabletop terms, I'm not very familiar with Deathwatch terms. For the heavy bolter, I assume -/-/10 is short/medium/long range target number adjustments, with 150m for each range band?

The -/-/10 is the rate of fire. The first spot is single shot (S for yes, - for no), second is burst fire (a # for size of burst, a - for no burst option), third spot is automatic fire rate (# for rounds fired in one automatic shooting action, - for not an option). So a heavy bolter is 10 rounds for a roughly 3-6 second turn (I think DW and the like use ~3 second turns).

Though it should be noted that the 40k RPGs are heavily abstracted; I can't think of any automatic weapon with a fire rate above 10 (even shuriken catapults, which fire in the 1000+ shots per minute range).

[Drasius]

Sorry, I meant Rate of Fire (how many rounds/minute), rather than Range.

While I'm sort-of familiar with tabletop terms, I'm not very familiar with Deathwatch terms. For the heavy bolter, I assume -/-/10 is short/medium/long range target number adjustments, with 150m for each range band?

10 shots a round, there's only 1 method of fire for a heavy bolter.

The first one is either a - (not applicable) or S which is single shot, the next one is semi auto, usually a 2 or a 3, the last one is full auto.

The range is a max accurate range IIRC. bonus to hit at half listed range, penalties over the listed range.


For Space Marines, that's only for clips (Traitor Marine style). You'll notice that Loyalists somehow managed to invent 'chain' technology that feeds into a backpack supply. Backpack supplies hold upwards of 200 rounds and can be fired near-continuously. The gist of a Heavy Bolter is fairly simple, if you're shooting over 200 rounds at something, they'd better be dead.

10 shots in a '6 second round' gives 1.6 shots per second. They're not actually 'machine guns', they just look like them. The Dawn of War franchise has the sounds of Boltguns completely wrong, because Bolt weapons are not machine guns. They're more like rapid fire Shotguns, like an AA12 that shoots dum dum shots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT5mlxI1XH4) (NSFW).
(The sound a Boltgun makes is supposed to sound like a monkey on a typewriter)

The 'machine gun' is a Storm Bolter.

I'm not a military guy, nor a gun nut, but I'd wager 200 rounds really isn't that much for a squad support weapon like a heavy bolter is meant to be. Also, for the life of me, I can't seem to google up a weight per projectile of IRL gyro's, but it is interesting to note that ammo for them is eye-wateringly expensive compared to normal guns, running in the $35-100 per rocket (not clip) range.

Edit: Damn ninjas posting stuff up while I was reading stuff.

[LCP]

Trying to do any sort of quantitative analysis on 40K guns I think is a bit silly, unless you're just doing it for the sake of picking holes. There is no "right" or "wrong" because the discussion in this thread alone is more work than the writers have ever done in trying to make this kind of thing make sense. The classic example is that bolters have jumped between cased and caseless ammunition depending on whether the latest artist thought it was cool to show them spraying out shell casings or not.

I mean, how deep down the rabbit hole do you want to go? I know arguments of "it's fantasy, get over it" can be annoying - everyone still expects e.g. gravity to work the same whether or not there are orcs, wizards or space elves around - but the bolter is one of the least nonsensical 40K weapons, just by virtue of having so much competition in the crazy stakes. Worrying about the rate of fire of a bolter while being completely au fait with grav guns and plasma guns seems weird to me.

[DemonicAngel]

10 shots a round, there's only 1 method of fire for a heavy bolter.

The first one is either a - (not applicable) or S which is single shot, the next one is semi auto, usually a 2 or a 3, the last one is full auto.

The range is a max accurate range IIRC. bonus to hit at half listed range, penalties over the listed range.



I'm not a military guy, nor a gun nut, but I'd wager 200 rounds really isn't that much for a squad support weapon like a heavy bolter is meant to be. Also, for the life of me, I can't seem to google up a weight per projectile of IRL gyro's, but it is interesting to note that ammo for them is eye-wateringly expensive compared to normal guns, running in the $35-100 per rocket (not clip) range.

Edit: Damn ninjas posting stuff up while I was reading stuff.

Speaking just from experience, the average 5.56 drum has 100-150 bullets (that means that if you want it to be mobile, that's what you're going to be using.). Our gunners would carry two of those, and another spare chain of 75 bullets iirc. If you're entrenched you can use a bullet box which can carry around about 500 bullets. i'm pretty sure that SM backpacks are somekind of boxes that feed the gun. 8kinda like the mech suits in the matrix).

Just some army knowledge. It probably changes from different forces.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not a military guy, nor a gun nut, but I'd wager 200 rounds really isn't that much for a squad support weapon like a heavy bolter is meant to be.

Which then begs the question; Is a Heavy Bolter even a support weapon? Because it certainly doesn't look like one (given its specs), and if it is a support weapon, why are they so bad and why does nobody ever take them? Infernus Heavy Bolters at least have suspensor webs, an underslung Heavy Flamer, and the wielder can move forwards and shoot at the time same - no bracing, because of the mentioned suspensors. But, that's Deathwatch, and kind of almost good.


Trying to do any sort of quantitative analysis on 40K guns I think is a bit silly, unless you're just doing it for the sake of picking holes.

See above.
There are any number of D&D threads dedicated to killing catgirls.


Speaking just from experience, the average 5.56 drum has 100-150 bullets (that means that if you want it to be mobile, that's what you're going to be using.). Our gunners would carry two of those, and another spare chain of 75 bullets iirc.

That's what the Imperial Guard do with their Heavy Bolters. In the Guard, Heavy Bolters are support weapons because the standard gun of an Infantryman - the Lasgun - isn't good. One of the major elements of Space Marines, is that they're not for prolonged engagements, they're scalpels, not hammers (the tabletop is bad and should feel bad). If a Space Marine needs more than 250 shots (at ~100 rounds per minute), the Strike has gone on too long.
(A 'Gladius Strike Force' just doesn't feel like a QRF.)

[Drasius]

Which then begs the question; Is a Heavy Bolter even a support weapon? Because it certainly doesn't look like one (given its specs), and if it is a support weapon, why are they so bad and why does nobody ever take them? Infernus Heavy Bolters at least have suspensor webs, an underslung Heavy Flamer, and the wielder can move forwards and shoot at the time same - no bracing, because of the mentioned suspensors. But, that's Deathwatch, and kind of almost good.

...

That's what the Imperial Guard do with their Heavy Bolters. In the Guard, Heavy Bolters are support weapons because the standard gun of an Infantryman - the Lasgun - isn't good. One of the major elements of Space Marines, is that they're not for prolonged engagements, they're scalpels, not hammers (the tabletop is bad and should feel bad). If a Space Marine needs more than 250 shots (at ~100 rounds per minute), the Strike has gone on too long.
(A 'Gladius Strike Force' just doesn't feel like a QRF.)

I think you kinda answered your own question there Cheese. Heavy bolters are a support weapon that are suitable for a slow advance force that takes and holds, planting itself in cover with a heavy weapon for support (read: Imperial Guard). Marines aren't that sort of force, and don't need that sort of weapon, hence why nobody takes them (also, they're bad because despite being AP4, they don't ignore cover so they might as well be AP-). The answer as to why nobody takes them in the guard is that autocannons are better for the same points and a guard army has no problems killing infantry like a heavy bolter is meant to do and the autocannon can do the same anti infantry job as the heavy bolter in a pinch anyway.

[Brother Oni]

I'm not a military guy, nor a gun nut, but I'd wager 200 rounds really isn't that much for a squad support weapon like a heavy bolter is meant to be. Also, for the life of me, I can't seem to google up a weight per projectile of IRL gyro's, but it is interesting to note that ammo for them is eye-wateringly expensive compared to normal guns, running in the $35-100 per rocket (not clip) range.

From the numbers I've found, the weight of a single Mk II 12mm gyrojet round is ~37g (22 oz of a full loaded 6 round gyrojet pistol versus 400g unloaded). For reference, the weight of a .500 S&W round (12.7mm) is 19-32g depending on how much propellant you put into the cartridge.

The price for them is stupidly expensive as they weren't mass produced and are basically a failed experiment. They're no longer manufactured and any rounds currently existing are curios for collectors, driving the price up.


Worrying about the rate of fire of a bolter while being completely au fait with grav guns and plasma guns seems weird to me.

It's only intended as a bit of fun speculating on real world analogies. Grav and plasma guns don't have a real world counterpart, so I'm more than happy to accept their performance at face values.

Bolters are more recognisable (throwing bits of metal really quickly out of a barrel with a chemical reaction), so we have analogues we can draw comparisons on. The fire rate question is only related to the ready ammunition a heavy bolter has and its perceived role as fire support - suppressing the enemy so that the rest of the squad can flank and kill them.


I think you kinda answered your own question there Cheese. Heavy bolters are a support weapon that are suitable for a slow advance force that takes and holds, planting itself in cover with a heavy weapon for support (read: Imperial Guard). Marines aren't that sort of force, and don't need that sort of weapon, hence why nobody takes them (also, they're bad because despite being AP4, they don't ignore cover so they might as well be AP-). The answer as to why nobody takes them in the guard is that autocannons are better for the same points and a guard army has no problems killing infantry like a heavy bolter is meant to do and the autocannon can do the same anti infantry job as the heavy bolter in a pinch anyway.

I might be reading too much of a real world role into it, but as mentioned above, the fire support role is to pin the enemy in place - killing them is just an added bonus. Has there been any mention of IG/SM doctrine with regard to small unit tactics in any of the books?

[Cheesegear]

The fire rate question is only related to the ready ammunition a heavy bolter has and its perceived role as fire support - suppressing the enemy so that the rest of the squad can flank and kill them.

Except a Heavy Bolter doesn't do that. A Heavy Bolter, for lack of a better phrase, is simply a bigger Boltgun. Remembering that Boltguns are not machine guns. The Heavy Bolter's role is to move forwards with the rest of the squad. If a Heavy Bolter is used as fire support, then it's part of a Devastator unit, and then there's four of them, if not more. Single Heavy Boltguns in a Tactical Squad basically do nothing at all, and only serve to slow the squad down.


I might be reading too much of a real world role into it, but as mentioned above, the fire support role is to pin the enemy in place - killing them is just an added bonus. Has there been any mention of IG/SM doctrine with regard to small unit tactics in any of the books?

Yes. Guard lay down covering fire with Lasguns, and Space Marines do a full frontal assault with Knives and Pistols because Tau can't fight for poop. Happens in War Zone Damocles. In Shield of Baal, it has very little to do with Guardsmen providing actual firepower, and (almost) everything to do with the Guardsmen standing as meat shields for the Space Marines.

[bluntpencil]

From the numbers I've found, the weight of a single Mk II 12mm gyrojet round is ~37g (22 oz of a full loaded 6 round gyrojet pistol versus 400g unloaded). For reference, the weight of a .500 S&W round (12.7mm) is 19-32g depending on how much propellant you put into the cartridge.

The price for them is stupidly expensive as they weren't mass produced and are basically a failed experiment. They're no longer manufactured and any rounds currently existing are curios for collectors, driving the price up.



It's only intended as a bit of fun speculating on real world analogies. Grav and plasma guns don't have a real world counterpart, so I'm more than happy to accept their performance at face values.

Bolters are more recognisable (throwing bits of metal really quickly out of a barrel with a chemical reaction), so we have analogues we can draw comparisons on. The fire rate question is only related to the ready ammunition a heavy bolter has and its perceived role as fire support - suppressing the enemy so that the rest of the squad can flank and kill them.



I might be reading too much of a real world role into it, but as mentioned above, the fire support role is to pin the enemy in place - killing them is just an added bonus. Has there been any mention of IG/SM doctrine with regard to small unit tactics in any of the books?

I believe the Deathwatch and Only War RPGs are good for this. Suppressive Fire is badass in Only War.

[Ricky S]

Pintle mounted stubbers are str 4 which is basically a m2 browning firing a .50cal round. Realistically that is already way above a squad support weapon. A heavy bolter could only ever be an emplaced or mounted weapon for guard. The closest guard actually have to a squad support weapon is the militarum tempestus hot shot volley gun.
I think in table top terms our modern firearms would onky be str 2. Flakk armour is also ridiculously strong. It can stop stubber rounds and multi laser rounds.

[The Glyphstone]

Autoguns are literally the 40K version of modern firearms - chemical-powered slugthrowers. They are S3, identical to lasguns, and in the much more nuanced RPGs, they're also near-identical to lasguns, so that is an effective benchmark to match 'RL' weapons against. The problem is when you try to use wargame stats, since everything from thrown rocks to planetbuster cannons have to be squeezed into a 1-10 range.

[Ricky S]

Autoguns are literally the 40K version of modern firearms - chemical-powered slugthrowers. They are S3, identical to lasguns, and in the much more nuanced RPGs, they're also near-identical to lasguns, so that is an effective benchmark to match 'RL' weapons against. The problem is when you try to use wargame stats, since everything from thrown rocks to planetbuster cannons have to be squeezed into a 1-10 range.

Yea the 1 to 10 range really isnt enough to differentiate the power of all the different rounds. I feel like autoguns are more powerful than modern day equivalents though. Lasguns which are str 3 can punch fist sized holes in concrete. A modern 7.62 mm round will most likely punch through it but just leave a hole not much bigger than itself.

My theory is that its 40k in the future, the proppellants they use for bullets will be more advanced too.

[bluntpencil]

Yea the 1 to 10 range really isnt enough to differentiate the power of all the different rounds. I feel like autoguns are more powerful than modern day equivalents though. Lasguns which are str 3 can punch fist sized holes in concrete. A modern 7.62 mm round will most likely punch through it but just leave a hole not much bigger than itself.

My theory is that its 40k in the future, the proppellants they use for bullets will be more advanced too.

An autogun is very similar to a modern weapon.

If you look at the RPGs, you can compare an autogun to a bow and arrow or crossbow. They're better, but not worlds away.

They also do similar injuries in the books, compared to modern guns in action movies (comparing pulpy novels to real life would be silly).

[The Glyphstone]

And the books are hardly even consistent amongst themselves as to the power of a lasgun, for that matter. Sometimes they punch holes in concrete, other times they can inflict flesh wounds to people they hit.

[Destro_Yersul]

And sometimes they cause perfect little round holes, like an actual laser would.

[deuterio12]

That's what the Imperial Guard do with their Heavy Bolters. In the Guard, Heavy Bolters are support weapons because the standard gun of an Infantryman - the Lasgun - isn't good. One of the major elements of Space Marines, is that they're not for prolonged engagements, they're scalpels, not hammers (the tabletop is bad and should feel bad). If a Space Marine needs more than 250 shots (at ~100 rounds per minute), the Strike has gone on too long.


Then why does the fluff have:
-SM chapters going into decades/centuries long crusades by themselves.
-Rebellious planets/systems being crushed by pure-SM forces (ex Badab war).
-Chapters like the Blood Tearers and Grey Knights that go out of their way to inflict collateral damage to their own allies.
-The emprah himself employed the SM as a hammer to brutally conquer planets and exterminate whatever displeased him more than any kind of precision work.
-Besides the above, the Imperium has both the Inquisition and Assassins for actual scalpel work. If all that's needed is to root out a cult or kill an enemy leader, the SM aren't called, the dudes not dressed in bright power armor and that actually fit in tight passages and can climb stairs are summoned for the job instead.:smalltongue:

Really terminators even literally wield hammers. They come packing the toughest personal armor the imperium can manufacture because they're expected to be under a lot of enemy fire. What's the point of bringing shields and stuff unless you're expecting the enemy to unload a lot of firepower on you?

[Sayt]

Point of order, the Flesh Tearers don't go out of their way to inflict collateral damage, they have ano extremely unfortunate inability to stop killing when they run out of enemies, which led them to go out of their way to not fight alongside allies where possible.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Really terminators even literally wield hammers.
http://i.imgur.com/mQ7RbuU.jpg

They come packing the toughest personal armor the imperium can manufacture because they're expected to be under a lot of enemy fire. What's the point of bringing shields and stuff unless you're expecting the enemy to unload a lot of firepower on you?

A lot of firepower... that can fit indoors. Which is what the scalpel means.

[Wraith]

Then why does the fluff have:
-SM chapters going into decades/centuries long crusades by themselves.
-Rebellious planets/systems being crushed by pure-SM forces (ex Badab war).
-Chapters like the Blood Tearers and Grey Knights that go out of their way to inflict collateral damage to their own allies.
-The emprah himself employed the SM as a hammer to brutally conquer planets and exterminate whatever displeased him more than any kind of precision work.
-Besides the above, the Imperium has both the Inquisition and Assassins for actual scalpel work. If all that's needed is to root out a cult or kill an enemy leader, the SM aren't called, the dudes not dressed in bright power armor and that actually fit in tight passages and can climb stairs are summoned for the job instead.


You're thinking on too small of a scale. The Imperium is a million worlds, a billion battlefiends, a trillion deaths every single day.

Relatively speaking, compared to the alternative of hundreds of years worth of threshing millions of humans in a meat grinder, using a Space Marine Chapter to conquer one world in a handful of days *IS* the scalpel work. The Assassins, to extend the metaphor, are the pin-prick.

The exact methods of the Astartes, while brutal and inefficient when you compare individual combatants to one another, are none-the-less exemplary.

[Drasius]

Even if the war lasts years, the astartes fight in lightning raids and surgical strikes instead of sitting in a trench for 8 weeks while their artillery (notice how they don't really have any other than the relatively short ranged anti infantry whirlwind and thunderfire) shells the crap out of an enemy?

Besides, even when the astartes do fight that kind of war, you end up with death guard and Iron Warriors, and the imperium doesn't want, nor can afford, that sort of thing these days.

[Cheesegear]

SM chapters going into decades/centuries long crusades by themselves.

Self-imposed exile is not normal.


Rebellious planets/systems being crushed by pure-SM forces (ex Badab war).

Badab War is a horrible example. It takes Space Marines to kill Space Marines. What are Guard going to do? Get killed and then die.


Chapters like the Blood Tearers and Grey Knights that go out of their way to inflict collateral damage to their own allies.

There's only one response I can give (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc).
Flesh Tearers do it 100% by accident.
Grey Knights do it because No Witnesses.


The emprah himself employed the SM as a hammer to brutally conquer planets and exterminate whatever displeased him more than any kind of precision work.

That's because the Legions were in the tens of thousands! The Emperor then died, Gulliman wrote a Codex, and the nature of Space Marines changed forever. The Imperium can't afford it, and even if they could, the High Lords don't want to give Marines that kind of power, and Guilliman's Codex ensures that they can't.


What's the point of bringing shields and stuff unless you're expecting the enemy to unload a lot of firepower on you?

The amount shots fired at you, is not the same as how long you get shot for. A Hammernator can take two Plasma shots to the face and keep on trucking, if the Terminator can close the distance in those ten seconds, the guy holding the Plasma Gun is dead. Quick and short. The protection on the Hammernator is only so he can survive to end the engagement.

"What's the plan, Sarge?"
We've got Hammers and Storm Shields. If we can get into combat, this fight will last five seconds. All's you have to do is get there.
"Full frontal Charge, and try not to die? Crush the enemies of the Imperium without mercy?"
If all you have is a Hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[deuterio12]

A hammer that crushes things good and fast is a good hammer, not a good scalpel.


Self-imposed exile is not normal.

It seems to be the most common "punishment" for chapters that aren't outright declared traitors. It's also a stupidly common plot device in the stories "and suddenly chapter X who had been on a crusade showed up".



Badab War is a horrible example. It takes Space Marines to kill Space Marines. What are Guard going to do? Get killed and then die.

Strap melta bombs to conspricts. Artillery everything that looks suspicious. Bring more bodies than they have bolter ammo. Plasma/melta anything left.

There was also the Macharian Heresy. (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Macharian_Heresy)
70 years.
100 SM chapters.
1000 planets.
No Items, Final Destination Only enemies were renegade guard. No super aliens, no daemons, just lots of humies with flashlights.

That means in average each SM chapter captured one world every 7 years.

That's not too bad I guess (Macharius did it in 1/10 the time with not a single suit of power/terminator armor), but it's pretty far from "days /weeks lighting fast conquest". It's much closer to slow grinding war.



There's only one response I can give (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc).
Flesh Tearers do it 100% by accident.
Grey Knights do it because No Witnesses.

See, if your "scalpel" only leaves behind a gory mess, it may just be a hammer.:smallamused:



That's because the Legions were in the tens of thousands! The Emperor then died, Gulliman wrote a Codex, and the nature of Space Marines changed forever. The Imperium can't afford it, and even if they could, the High Lords don't want to give Marines that kind of power, and Guilliman's Codex ensures that they can't.



Ultramarines - 250,000
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000
Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000
World Eaters - 150,000
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000
Blood Angels - 120,000
Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000
Iron Hands - 113,000
Emperor's Children - 110,000
Imperial Fists - 100,000
Death Guard - 95,000
Alpha Legion - Conflicting accounts ranging from 90,000 to 180,000
Salamanders - 89,000
Raven Guard - 80,000
Thousand Sons - 10,000

That goes for a max of 1 787 000 SM in 30K.

Come 40K there's 1000 000 SM. That's about half, but still in the same scale. If they could be used to conquer planets before, they still can.

And again, the High Lords didn't seem to have any trouble dispatching 100 chapters (10% of the total SM force )to re-conquer 1000 planets (1/1000 the Imperium's size).



The amount shots fired at you, is not the same as how long you get shot for. A Hammernator can take two Plasma shots to the face and keep on trucking, if the Terminator can close the distance in those ten seconds, the guy holding the Plasma Gun is dead. Quick and short. The protection on the Hammernator is only so he can survive to end the engagement.

"What's the plan, Sarge?"
We've got Hammers and Storm Shields. If we can get into combat, this fight will last five seconds. All's you have to do is get there.
"Full frontal Charge, and try not to die? Crush the enemies of the Imperium without mercy?"
If all you have is a Hammer, everything looks like a nail.

"Sarge, the enemy is falling back instead of standing in place waiting for us to reach them with our massive cubersome slow armor!"
"FFFFUUUUUU-"

An Hammernator's loadout is literally the worst possible choice for a scalpel military unit. They're however pretty much the definition of an hammer unit, pun intended.

[Cheesegear]

That's not too bad I guess (Macharius did it in 1/10 the time with not a single suit of power/terminator armor)

Macharius had at least five (that we know of) Chapters backing him up. Although the level of support varies, because the Macharius Crusade was written in a time when writers weren't stupid and used Guard correctly. In The Macharian Crusade, Macharius deals directly with Battle Leader Logan Grimnar, and the protagonists are saved by Death Spectres, etc. Read The Macharian Crusade trilogy. It's good.


It's much closer to slow grinding war.

Which is exactly what Space Marines don't want.


See, if your "scalpel" only leaves behind a gory mess, it may just be a hammer.:smallamused:

You're mixing your metaphors.
Space Marines are supposed to Drop Pod in, explode a building, assassinate a dude, end a siege quickly and efficiently. Then get off the planet. Or, go to another point on the planet. Protracted battles are bad for Space Marines. They hate it. 5 Terminators, with a Cruiser in orbit, and liberal use of Teleports, can pacify a planet, simply by killing off all the right people.

The Guard are called 'The Hammer of the Emperor', because they're huge, slow, inexorable and basically unstoppable. They can throw men into the meat grinder. That's what the 'Hammer' is.
The 'Scalpel', is a quick assassination plot that ends the conflict immediately - regardless of how bloody. They cut out the root of the problem, and ignore the rest. 'Mopping up' is what the Guard are for.
"A knife in the night, is more effective than a hundred swords at dawn." Or something. I forget the quote. Marines operate in Strike Forces and Kill Teams.


Come 40K there's 1000 000 SM. That's about half, but still in the same scale. If they could be used to conquer planets before, they still can.

No they can't, because that many Marines in the same place means some other Sector of space goes undefended. This is the major problem I have with Raven Guard going to the Damocles Gulf. You can't just send any Marines anywhere. That's not how it works. Bad writers are bad.


And again, the High Lords didn't seem to have any trouble dispatching 100 chapters to re-conquer 70 planets.

Yeah. And then they never did it before or since. Almost like it's not a normal thing and pretty extraordinary. Because every Chapter in the setting hates putting all their Marines in the same place, because it only ever ends badly. If a Chapter is throwing more than 2 Companies of Marines at a problem, it means their Homeworld is being attacked. Like I said, Strike Forces and Kill Teams. If a Chapter has sent in more than 50 dudes, without Guard backup...

Basically, if 100 Chapters are going to war, it means that **** has hit the fan and there's no other option. Scalpels aren't going to work this time. The problem with The Macharian Heresy, is that there isn't a novel about it, so we don't have first person accounts. Space Marines would hate that. Just like The Great Crusade itself, it's probably not 1 planet per seven years. More like the Marines Pacify a planet, and move on to the next one. Couple of years later, the planet rebels again, and the Crusade halts and has to backtrack because no-one thinks to do what Curze did.


"Sarge, the enemy is falling back instead of standing in place waiting for us to reach them with our massive cubersome slow armor!"
"FFFFUUUUUU-"

Why are you walking? Don't you just teleport in their face, giving them about five seconds of reaction time before you bash their heads in, and then teleport out?


An Hammernator's loadout is literally the worst possible choice for a scalpel military unit.

It's actually the best. It ends the problem immediately with little manpower investment, quickly and brutally. Teleport in. Teleport out. Go home.

You're basically ennumerating all the reasons why the Space Marines Battles books suck so much. Because in order to push more novels, they have to write Bolter-porn, which basically means doing exactly what Marines aren't supposed to do.

[LansXero]

Off topic, but the talk about hammernators reminded me of the bit in the night lords trilogy with the assault... terminator? centurion?. If the enemy is falling back away from you, thats great because you then get to the generatorium / ship bridge and thats a victory. And if they arent, they are dying, so thats pretty good too.

[Grim Portent]

I think a sword or spear is a better metaphor for marines than scalpel is. Scalpel implies more precision than they tend to use and better suits the Assassins.

Space marines don't just nip in and kill a renegade commander, they rush forward in the fastest armoured vehicles in the Imperium and carve a bloody swathe up to the enemy commanders front door and blow his head off while their brothers are deep striking into his airfields and armouries to destroy his war machines. They're more of a lance or a broad sweeping strike than anything.

[LCP]

The problem with The Macharian Heresy, is that there isn't a novel about it, so we don't have first person accounts.


You're basically ennumerating all the reasons why the Space Marines Battles books suck so much. Because in order to push more novels, they have to write Bolter-porn, which basically means doing exactly what Marines aren't supposed to do.

Hang on, which is it? BL gives better detail than rulebooks, or BL produces bolter-porn that doesn't count?

Personally I really dislike the "marines as special forces" idea that tries to imply they are used as some kind of intelligent precision-strike strategy. They're not integrated into the rest of the Imperium's armed forces, or trained/equipped for that role - special forces don't wear huge silhouette-enhancing shoulderpads and paint themselves in primary colours!

To me, space marines take a much clearer inspiration from medieval knightly orders than from any modern military organisation (which fits pretty cleanly with the central theme of 40K being - according to Jervis Johnson - the Middle Ages in space). But at the same time, their lore is designed as an exercise in Your Dudes. You can tailor a space marine chapter to fight according to pretty much any tactical doctrine and it tends to fit with the lore at least as well as any of the official chapters. Which is to say, fine if you don't think about it too hard.

[LeSwordfish]

Hang on, which is it? BL gives better detail than rulebooks, or BL produces bolter-porn that doesn't count?

Not that I disagree with the rest of your points, but I think in this case it's the "Space Marine Battles" books that are being disparaged, not BL in general. And frankly, if you buy a book called "Space Marine Battles: X" you deserve whatever you get.

[LCP]

As opposed to the rest of BL's output being high literature?

I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing, but I think if you want to know how space marines fight battles then a book series called "Space Marine Battles" sounds like a fairly decent source. The quality of the writing is a separate question.

[Wraith]

I think there's a clear division between how Space Marines ought to fight - according to what we know of their equipment, physical abilities and numbers - and how the GW writers portray them as fighting due to not being experts in militaristic combat styles and strategy. It's obvious that the latter is "wrong", but.... who cares, if it's fun?

[LCP]

^ I completely agree (and I don't think the answer to either of those is "special ops in power armour" - but that's my subjective opinion and I don't think it's grounds to call any other take right or wrong). I'd also point out that I don't think there's a great deal more military expertise in this thread than there is in GWHQ - we're all amateurs.

One other point is how marines should fight doesn't have to dictate how they do fight in order to make sense. Going back to knightly orders, the way medieval knights fought was not 100% optimised to produce the best results on the battlefield - it was informed by lots of other concepts (chivalry, faith, family honour etc.) that sometimes led them into pretty daft situations. To me that kind of daftness is what gives 40K its flavour; treating space marines like you have to pretend everything they do is eminently sensible kinda ruins the appeal.

[Cheesegear]

I think a sword or spear is a better metaphor for marines...

Well, that is what Horus said.

[Ricky S]

One other point is how marines should fight doesn't have to dictate how they do fight in order to make sense. Going back to knightly orders, the way medieval knights fought was not 100% optimised to produce the best results on the battlefield - it was informed by lots of other concepts (chivalry, faith, family honour etc.) that sometimes led them into pretty daft situations. To me that kind of daftness is what gives 40K its flavour; treating space marines like you have to pretend everything they do is eminently sensible kinda ruins the appeal.

That does make sense for all the crazy last stands and valiant charges for no reason other than the honour of the chapter. I think it depends on the chapter though. Some chapters are a lot more valiant than others and some go out of their way to protect human life regardless of their own casualties. Some chapters are just downright insane like the flesh tearers.

[houlio]

Well, that is what Horus said.

I was going to chime in to say that Horus was all about the quick, brutal, surgical strike with his legion. He probably had something going there, being Warmaster and all.

[Cheesegear]

Some chapters are just downright insane like the flesh tearers.

Flesh Tearers aren't insane, they just go insane. The Flesh Tearers who are in their right mind, are well aware of what they're doing. One of the smart ones is even in charge.

Space Sharks are psychopaths.
White Scars turn into sociopaths.

[Ricky S]

Flesh Tearers aren't insane, they just go insane. The Flesh Tearers who are in their right mind, are well aware of what they're doing. One of the smart ones is even in charge.

Space Sharks are psychopaths.
White Scars turn into sociopaths.

Haha semantics, they end up at the same place as if they were insane. I didnt know that about white scars but definitely knew it about space sharks

[Tehnar]

What bothers me about Hammernator boarding actions is that it assumes the enemy is willfully stupid for it to even work.

If you know you are facing space marines (and they have been around for 10K years, I doubt its news to anyone in the Galaxy), who does not
1) protect their vulnerable location from teleporting
2) or if that is impossible, station guards that can deal with/slow down

And that is all assuming the teleporting works perfectly.
On top it off, those sent on the teleport suicide missions are the most experienced and valuable members of the chapter. Losing them hurts even if you can get the suits themselves back.

[Cheesegear]

What bothers me about Hammernator boarding actions is that it assumes the enemy is willfully stupid for it to even work.

If Teleporting doesn't work, Space Marines use the 'Marines in Space' method and shoot boarding torpedoes (Kharybdis Assault Claws) or Drop Pods at the problem.


And that is all assuming the teleporting works perfectly.

That is the tricky part. But, it appears that most Marine Chapters don't seem to care. Lysander was made Captain of the 1st because his immediate predecessor was teleported into a wall, and that still doesn't stop him from Teleporting. Even Space Wolves were retconned into Deep Striking their Terminators. The Wolves find it uncomfortable, but the fact that they do it all is the point. Grimnar himself, even has his Void Claw squad dedicated to Teleporting to other ships and murdering everyone in small corridors.


On top it off, those sent on the teleport suicide missions are the most experienced and valuable members of the chapter. Losing them hurts even if you can get the suits themselves back.

That's the real cognitive dissonance.

[Grim Portent]

There's probably not really all that much difference in age and experience between those who have earned the terminator honours and those who haven't. When you lose your 5 most experienced vets in a teleport bungle or failed assault you still have 95 other 1st company vets who can step up and will be nearly identical in knowledge and ability, and they are only marginally better and more knowledgeable than the guys in 2nd company, and are basically identical to the command staff of each given company.

Average marine lifespan is what, 300 years or so? If your 2nd company is all mid 200s then they've got a comparable amount of experience to your 300+ year old vets and can fill in their shoes once a space opens up.

[LansXero]

What bothers me about Hammernator boarding actions is that it assumes the enemy is willfully stupid for it to even work.

If you know you are facing space marines (and they have been around for 10K years, I doubt its news to anyone in the Galaxy), who does not
1) protect their vulnerable location from teleporting
2) or if that is impossible, station guards that can deal with/slow down

And that is all assuming the teleporting works perfectly.
On top it off, those sent on the teleport suicide missions are the most experienced and valuable members of the chapter. Losing them hurts even if you can get the suits themselves back.

Huh? They do, or at least you hardly see them teleported straight into the bridge / enginarium of a ship. Engines and the like is probably due to interference or something, but I think command sections are shielded as well.

Putting guards between a terminator squad and their target usually just ups the casualty count, but its still done anyways. Hell, even ship menials take shots with their solid round weapons, regardless of how useless that is.

[bluntpencil]

I want to know why Death Company aren't strapped with massive bombs and teleported into spaceships.

[Grim Portent]

I want to know why Death Company aren't strapped with massive bombs and teleported into spaceships.

It would probably destroy their geneseed for one thing.

[LCP]

This is the Star Trek problem right? You don't even need the guy, you could just teleport the bomb. You need various constraints on how teleportation works to stop that from being the win-button strategy.

[Drasius]

What bothers me about Hammernator boarding actions is that it assumes the enemy is willfully stupid for it to even work.

If you know you are facing space marines (and they have been around for 10K years, I doubt its news to anyone in the Galaxy), who does not
1) protect their vulnerable location from teleporting
2) or if that is impossible, station guards that can deal with/slow down

And that is all assuming the teleporting works perfectly.
On top it off, those sent on the teleport suicide missions are the most experienced and valuable members of the chapter. Losing them hurts even if you can get the suits themselves back.

Remember, if you get boarded by hammernators and you're without space marines of your own, you're pretty screwed because unlike the tabletop, terminator armour doesn't fall down to 1 round of autogun fire. If you do have marines, you're probably still screwed because they're probably not packing the sort of armament that stops terminators in the few seconds that you have between the terminators coming around the corner, seeing you and then smashing your face in with a thunderhammer or evicerating you with a pair of lightning claws.

As for losing the best when a boarding action goes tits up, well I think that's why they send their best, so that it doesn't go tits up in the first place. Because, again, unlike tabletop, terminator armour is the best thing ever and nigh invulnerable and the dudes who are wearing said armour are some of the deadliest individuals in the galaxy. Boarding actions are, by their very nature, incredibly dangerous, so you should be sending the best you've got instead of some rookies because getting over there when the bad guys are still pewpewing your ship (and yours is sometimes still pewpewing theirs) and you're going to be outnumbered 100:1 with no real chance of backup or reinforcements while they've got the homeground advantage, it's a tough ask, even for vets.

[bluntpencil]

This is the Star Trek problem right? You don't even need the guy, you could just teleport the bomb. You need various constraints on how teleportation works to stop that from being the win-button strategy.

+1

True that.

[LCP]

Remember, if you get boarded by hammernators and you're without space marines of your own, you're pretty screwed because unlike the tabletop, terminator armour doesn't fall down to 1 round of autogun fire. If you do have marines, you're probably still screwed because they're probably not packing the sort of armament that stops terminators in the few seconds that you have between the terminators coming around the corner, seeing you and then smashing your face in with a thunderhammer or evicerating you with a pair of lightning claws.

As for losing the best when a boarding action goes tits up, well I think that's why they send their best, so that it doesn't go tits up in the first place. Because, again, unlike tabletop, terminator armour is the best thing ever and nigh invulnerable and the dudes who are wearing said armour are some of the deadliest individuals in the galaxy. Boarding actions are, by their very nature, incredibly dangerous, so you should be sending the best you've got instead of some rookies because getting over there when the bad guys are still pewpewing your ship (and yours is sometimes still pewpewing theirs) and you're going to be outnumbered 100:1 with no real chance of backup or reinforcements while they've got the homeground advantage, it's a tough ask, even for vets.

Why can't I build my spaceship with 5-6' tall access corridors that terminators literally can't fit through? :smalltongue: That would still be pretty spacious by comparison to many historical warships.

[bluntpencil]

Why can't I build my spaceship with 5-6' tall access corridors that terminators literally can't fit through? :smalltongue: That would still be pretty spacious by comparison to many historical warships.

I think they'll just bash holes in the walls with their hammers. Or, even better, will cut them open with chainfists.

[LCP]

Do they have chainsaws on their heads & feet? I'm talking about the entire length of the corridor being too short/narrow for them to fit.

Even if they could just mash their way through the ship's internal structure, it would make them soooooo slooooooww. In the "seeing them coming round a corner" scenario you could just run away, go grab some appropriate heavy weapon from the ship's armoury, come back, set it up, and still have time to have a smoke before you shot them as they were grinding their way towards you.

[13_CBS]

you could just run away, go grab some appropriate heavy weapon from the ship's armoury, come back, set it up, and still have time to have a smoke before you shot them as they were grinding their way towards you.

Some BL books mention that weapons designed to be used by ship defenders tend to have low AP values, basically, because the defenders don't want to accidentally blow up their own ship (i.e. do the boarders' job for them) by leveling overly powerful weapons at the intruders, miss, and destroy something important. Hence, human boarder-repelling marines (with a small "m") are sometimes depicted as running around with shotguns rather than, say, meltas or plasma guns.

[Grim Portent]

Why can't I build my spaceship with 5-6' tall access corridors that terminators literally can't fit through? :smalltongue: That would still be pretty spacious by comparison to many historical warships.

How are your tech priests and lifter/maintenance servitors going to get through to fix things that break? They tend to be pretty big thing and carry very big boxes.

[LCP]

The same way as maintenance crews on e.g. WW2 battleships? Or submarines? The great thing about big machines is that you can design them to be broken down into small parts.

Not every access-way needs to be too small for a terminator/space marine to fit, either. Just enough of them that if you get boarded by the beakie boyz you have a huge home field advantage.

As for terminator-busting weaponry being too dangerous to fire on board the ship - if you've already been boarded I'd say it's less dangerous to break those weapons out than to let the terminators have a free rein. 40K ships are designed to survive ship duels with high-energy weapons; the danger of internal weapons discharge isn't to the ship as a whole, it's mostly to the people discharging the weapons (and those in their vicinity). The terminators in their face are probably a bigger concern to them than the risk of damaging life support systems.

[bluntpencil]

Do they have chainsaws on their heads & feet? I'm talking about the entire length of the corridor being too short/narrow for them to fit.

Even if they could just mash their way through the ship's internal structure, it would make them soooooo slooooooww. In the "seeing them coming round a corner" scenario you could just run away, go grab some appropriate heavy weapon from the ship's armoury, come back, set it up, and still have time to have a smoke before you shot them as they were grinding their way towards you.

I imagine they'd bash holes until they got to a hollow section, then magboot their way along.

[bluntpencil]

The same way as maintenance crews on e.g. WW2 battleships? Or submarines? The great thing about big machines is that you can design them to be broken down into small parts.

Not every access-way needs to be too small for a terminator/space marine to fit, either. Just enough of them that if you get boarded by the beakie boyz you have a huge home field advantage.

As for terminator-busting weaponry being too dangerous to fire on board the ship - if you've already been boarded I'd say it's less dangerous to break those weapons out than to let the terminators have a free rein. 40K ships are designed to survive ship duels with high-energy weapons; the danger of internal weapons discharge isn't to the ship as a whole, it's mostly to the people discharging the weapons (and those in their vicinity). The terminators in their face are probably a bigger concern to them than the risk of damaging life support systems.

This is fair. If you're worried that the bolter you're carrying could decompress your corridor, then the 8 foot tall dude in the vacuum-sealed Terminator Armour is going to do just that with his chainfist. You may as well just blast him with plasma.

[LCP]

I imagine they'd bash holes until they got to a hollow section, then magboot their way along.

At the point where you're bashing holes through the ship every step of the way that isn't a hollow void, are you really a boarding party any more? A torpedo does the same thing.

[Artanis]

One thing to remember is that all Imperial and Chaos* ships were made by the Imperium, which has a long and storied history of designing things as stupidly as possible. Remember, this is an organization whose ships reload their torpedoes by having masses of slaves use pulleys to haul them into place. Slightly slowing down the deadliest warriors in the galaxy is probably a secondary consideration next to making sure your ammo-gangs have enough room to do their jobs and your political officers have enough places to put three-story-tall murals of The Emperor massacring traitors, heretics, xenos, and people who take too many sick days.



*Except the Planet Killer

[Grim Portent]

There's also the matter that you may need to be able to let something like a dreadnought walk around your ship occasionally. Lot of Imperial stuff is big, even on spaceships, and a lot of them would take a dim view on not being able to go where they please.

[Forum Explorer]

As for weaponry, remember that being boarded by Terminators is relatively rare. Most of the time you're dealing with pirates, traitors, or orks. They don't need to heavy weaponry to succeed. And because mutinies aren't all that rare (less rare then being boarded by terminators at least), you want the actual heavy weapons to be well secured by people you trust, not just any armsman can get access to them.

[GolemsVoice]

As far as I know, there are places in a spaceship that are HUGE, cathedrals, gunnery decks, stuff like that, and places in a spaceship that are tiny, like crew decks, service corridors and the whole lower deck (where even the crew doesn't go without bringing guns). Rogue Trader even mentions spaceships designed to intentioanlly mislead attackers, though those are a special feature.

[Cheesegear]

There's also the matter that you may need to be able to let something like a dreadnought walk around your ship occasionally. Lot of Imperial stuff is big, even on spaceships, and a lot of them would take a dim view on not being able to go where they please.

How else are you meant to carry around Titans? The Sperenza, an Ark Mechanicus in the Forge of Mars trilogy is so massive that it can contain a small city in its training area.

[The Glyphstone]

I always assumed things like Titans were loaded into ships from external hatches direct into their transport bays, rather than marched through corridors in the ship.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I always assumed things like Titans were loaded into ships from external hatches direct into their transport bays, rather than marched through corridors in the ship.

This is the Imperium we're talking about. :smallwink:

[Destro_Yersul]

How are you supposed to conduct training exercises with your Titans en route if you can't put a full-sized reconfigurable city in your training area?

[DataNinja]

How are you supposed to conduct training exercises with your Titans en route if you can't put a full-sized reconfigurable city in your training area?

Very messily.

[Wraith]

It would probably destroy their geneseed for one thing.

Isn't Death Company gene-seed considered to be tainted anyway? I thought that was one of the reasons as to why the Blood Angels keep almost-dying-off every so often and had to ask their cousins for help.


Even if they could just mash their way through the ship's internal structure, it would make them soooooo slooooooww. In the "seeing them coming round a corner" scenario you could just run away, go grab some appropriate heavy weapon from the ship's armoury, come back, set it up, and still have time to have a smoke before you shot them as they were grinding their way towards you.

This actually happens in the audiobook Mission: Purge and it gets justified. Four Deathwatch Marines end up on a Rogue Trader vessel full of genestealers, an in lieu of fighting their way through endless hoards of the buggers they turn a multimelta on the walls and escape laterally. A quick conversation occurs that they're doing this because none of them have a Thunderhammer, or a chainfist (even though the latter would take too long under the circumstances) but it's not a remarkable manoeuvre. None the less, the squad is still able to move fast enough to all-but-completely evade Purestrain Genestealers.


I imagine they'd bash holes until they got to a hollow section, then magboot their way along.

It's entirely possible to be teleported onto the outside of a ship and to then cut your way in where you want to go to.
In many ways, this is even a favourable idea - there's far less garbage, like walls, doors, and inconveniently placed people on the outside for you to inadvertently telefrag upon. Similarly, unless you decide to stand right in front of a window and be seen plain as day, your enemies have to guess where you are and outrun a meltabomb followed by rapid decompression in order to circumvent your ingress - if you're landing within a ship, you need a very specific size of open area needed in which to appear with anything like safely, so the defenders just have to cover those places. It's still diificult, granted, but it's certainly far more plausible than "the entire exterior of a 5km long ship". :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

It's entirely possible to be teleported onto the outside of a ship and to then cut your way in where you want to go to.

Or Caestus Assault Ram. On the way in, shoot your magna-melta into the side of a ship, crumpling and melting at the same time, when the Assault Ram does what it's name says it does, and rams into the side of the ship, the rest of the Hull crumples in on itself, and Space Marines jump out the front of the Ram.
Kharbybdis Assault Claws do the same thing, latch onto the side of a ship and burn a hole in the hull.

A Navy has Marines. Space Navies have Space Marines. I've found that a lot of people don't quite understand what that means.

I remember in the start of Mont'ka, where Battlefleet Ultima opened the space fight by launching boarding torpedoes of Space Marines at orbital stations. It was awesome.

[Destro_Yersul]

And now I want to write bolter porn involving Space Marine boarding parties. Thanks, Cheesegear. :smalltongue:

[LCP]

This actually happens in the audiobook Mission: Purge and it gets justified. Four Deathwatch Marines end up on a Rogue Trader vessel full of genestealers, an in lieu of fighting their way through endless hoards of the buggers they turn a multimelta on the walls and escape laterally. A quick conversation occurs that they're doing this because none of them have a Thunderhammer, or a chainfist (even though the latter would take too long under the circumstances) but it's not a remarkable manoeuvre. None the less, the squad is still able to move fast enough to all-but-completely evade Purestrain Genestealers.

The bolded part sounds like narrative fiat to me. Why can't the genestealers just follow them down the hole they're making?


A Navy has Marines. Space Navies have Space Marines. I've found that a lot of people don't quite understand what that means.

Except that these Space Marines aren't attached to a navy? They have their own ships but they are a separate organisation, with the ships being very much subordinate to the marines.

More importantly though, space is not the ocean and analogies between the two are tenuous at best.

Even in naval warfare on Earth, navy vs. navy boarding actions pretty much died out with the advent of long-range battleship weapons. Quotes from Wikipedia:


The adoption of ironclads and increasingly powerful naval artillery vastly increased the risk to boarding parties. Meanwhile, the suppression of piracy and the abandonment of privateering and prize money made boarding actions even against merchant vessels less rewarding. The massacre of Paraguayan canoe-borne boarding parties by Brazilian ironclads during the Paraguayan War demonstrated the futility of direct assault by boarding in the face of 19th-century technology.


For the most part, boarding became a police action in which the attackers came on board only when no resistance could be expected

In space, the range of "naval" artillery is longer than modern ship guns by an absurd (technically infinite) degree - and in 40K, the energy output of those weapons is also scaled up by orders of magnitude. Meanwhile the passive risks to boarders are hugely amplified by the fact that you have a much greater distance to cross, you can't accelerate or decelerate too hard without jellifying your passengers, and you need vulnerable life support systems on your boarding craft for the boarders to be able to do simple things like breathe or not freeze to death. (Teleportation circumvents these of course, but comes with its own suite of problems like the teleporting bomb).

The only way I see boarding actions making sense as a standard military doctrine in 40K is as a way of capturing valuable ships after they have been completely disabled in a space-based slugfest. Come up alongside the crippled ship, dock, pour your crew into their ship to accept their surrender. Boarding torpedoes, assault rams etc. are just a really great way to get your expensive soldiers killed.

Note of course that I know they're in the fluff regardless - I'm perfectly happy to accept them as part of the general silliness of the setting. But acting like people "don't understand" for calling them silly really rubs me up the wrong way. 40K does not make sense and it's really not meant to.

[Wraith]

Or Caestus Assault Ram. On the way in, shoot your magna-melta into the side of a ship, crumpling and melting at the same time, when the Assault Ram does what it's name says it does, and rams into the side of the ship, the rest of the Hull crumples in on itself, and Space Marines jump out the front of the Ram.

Assault Rams, Kharbybdis Claws and Drop Pods can be intercepted by Fighter Wings and defensive turrets. Don't get me wrong, your vision of Space Boarding is awesome and both historically (future-historically?) accurate.... But as you said before, they could instead just teleport a bomb and kill everyone near it. Or, failing that, teleport guys somewhere that they're not going to telefrag in the wall (as easily...) or look up into the muzzle of 50 Naval Ratings with Autocannons at the other end of the corridor. *shrug*


The bolded part sounds like narrative fiat to me. Why can't the genestealers just follow them down the hole they're making?

That would be the hail of Storm Bolts and frag grenades coming the other way. :smalltongue:

But yeah, Mission: Purge is pretty dumb, but in it's defence it is gloriously dumb. It's also the only in-universe reference I know of to the Rainbow Warriors Chapter, which is both awesome and hilarious because a) RAINBOW. WARRIORS. and b) even other Space Marines consider it to be a pretty stupid name. :smallbiggrin:

[Forum Explorer]

The only way I see boarding actions making sense as a standard military doctrine in 40K is as a way of capturing valuable ships after they have been completely disabled in a space-based slugfest. Come up alongside the crippled ship, dock, pour your crew into their ship to accept their surrender. Boarding torpedoes, assault rams etc. are just a really great way to get your expensive soldiers killed.

Note of course that I know they're in the fluff regardless - I'm perfectly happy to accept them as part of the general silliness of the setting. But acting like people "don't understand" for calling them silly really rubs me up the wrong way. 40K does not make sense and it's really not meant to.

That's more or less true, except for the completely disabled part. Space ships are incredibly valuable, and it's hard to stop a ship from jumping into the warp to retreat. And because they are so valuable, it's worth taking the risk of a boarding action, even if they aren't actually disabled yet. It's the same sort of reason, just on a smaller scale, on why the Imperium risks boarding Space Hulks instead of just blowing them up whenever they appear.

[LeSwordfish]

if you're landing within a ship, you need a very specific size of open area needed in which to appear with anything like safely, so the defenders just have to cover those places. It's still diificult, granted, but it's certainly far more plausible than "the entire exterior of a 5km long ship

Armsmen! We believe the enemy are using teleported boarding parties. On my command you will spread out across the entire main deck at five-foot intervals - they'll have to have at least one of them collide with at least one of you.

"Beg pardon sir, but won't that kill whoever they collide with?"

Reckon we've got any other way to one-to-one trade you with a space marine, lad? Now, to your positions!

[lord_khaine]

That's more or less true, except for the completely disabled part. Space ships are incredibly valuable, and it's hard to stop a ship from jumping into the warp to retreat. And because they are so valuable, it's worth taking the risk of a boarding action, even if they aren't actually disabled yet. It's the same sort of reason, just on a smaller scale, on why the Imperium risks boarding Space Hulks instead of just blowing them up whenever they appear.

It used to be one of the main things Terminator armor were useful for. Its slow and cumbersome, extremely hard to maintain, and still falling to heavy weapons. But it shines when it comes to exploring narrow, monster filled corridors.

[Tehnar]

Remember, if you get boarded by hammernators and you're without space marines of your own, you're pretty screwed because unlike the tabletop, terminator armour doesn't fall down to 1 round of autogun fire. If you do have marines, you're probably still screwed because they're probably not packing the sort of armament that stops terminators in the few seconds that you have between the terminators coming around the corner, seeing you and then smashing your face in with a thunderhammer or evicerating you with a pair of lightning claws.

As for losing the best when a boarding action goes tits up, well I think that's why they send their best, so that it doesn't go tits up in the first place. Because, again, unlike tabletop, terminator armour is the best thing ever and nigh invulnerable and the dudes who are wearing said armour are some of the deadliest individuals in the galaxy. Boarding actions are, by their very nature, incredibly dangerous, so you should be sending the best you've got instead of some rookies because getting over there when the bad guys are still pewpewing your ship (and yours is sometimes still pewpewing theirs) and you're going to be outnumbered 100:1 with no real chance of backup or reinforcements while they've got the homeground advantage, it's a tough ask, even for vets.

I can see that in the 40K universe boarding actions can be effective, or even needed to take over some ships/stations because the shields of such installations are so strong pounding them away takes a while.
I can see the benefit of teleporting where you want, even though it is really unreliable.
What I don't understand is the logic of using teleporting hammernators to routinely attack high value targets.

Let me explain with a checklist:

You have to make sure that its even possible to teleport close enough to the target
Once you teleport, the teleport has to work and getting the cream of the chapter stuck in the walls and stuff
In a universe where political power = personal power, high value targets will be powerful, often enough to crush the terminators. Even with the 40K Terminator armor fluff (as opposed to Deathwatch/tabletop crunch) teleporting next to bunch of Ork Nobs/Warbosses, Hive Tyrants, Meks with SAGs, Melta totting crisis suits or Lychguard makes it very hard for your Hammernators to come out on top.


But actually the complaint is due to the nature of logistics. If Imperial guard had access to teleporters, by all means cram as many guardsmen as you can in the teleporter room and push the button. But sending your best dudes, in a armor that is impossible to replicate anymore just doesn't make sense unless your back is to the wall and it is literally the only thing that will save your ass.

[Drasius]

I can see that in the 40K universe boarding actions can be effective, or even needed to take over some ships/stations because the shields of such installations are so strong pounding them away takes a while.
I can see the benefit of teleporting where you want, even though it is really unreliable.
What I don't understand is the logic of using teleporting hammernators to routinely attack high value targets.

Let me explain with a checklist:

You have to make sure that its even possible to teleport close enough to the target
Once you teleport, the teleport has to work and getting the cream of the chapter stuck in the walls and stuff
In a universe where political power = personal power, high value targets will be powerful, often enough to crush the terminators. Even with the 40K Terminator armor fluff (as opposed to Deathwatch/tabletop crunch) teleporting next to bunch of Ork Nobs/Warbosses, Hive Tyrants, Meks with SAGs, Melta totting crisis suits or Lychguard makes it very hard for your Hammernators to come out on top.


But actually the complaint is due to the nature of logistics. If Imperial guard had access to teleporters, by all means cram as many guardsmen as you can in the teleporter room and push the button. But sending your best dudes, in a armor that is impossible to replicate anymore just doesn't make sense unless your back is to the wall and it is literally the only thing that will save your ass.

IIRC, you can't teleport through a ships shields (an enemy ship that is, you can teleport out from your own shields just fine, same as weapons fire I guess), so the only time that you're going to want to board someone is so you can get something of value, since if you just wanted to explode them, well, their shields are down, you could totally just keep shooting them and call it a day.

Also, if the high value target that you've got to kill to get the thing that you're after is as dangerous as you say, why would you not send the best people with the best gear after them? If you think that hammernators are going to have trouble, why on earth would you think that anything else that marines have access too is going to fare any better?

[Grim Portent]

You also can't teleport people without something at least as durable as power armour usually since daemons and warp exposure are a side effect of teleportation.

Trying to send a whole platoon of guardsmen through a teleporter is inviting daemonic incursions into your field of operations.

[bluntpencil]

You also can't teleport people without something at least as durable as power armour usually since daemons and warp exposure are a side effect of teleportation.

Trying to send a whole platoon of guardsmen through a teleporter is inviting daemonic incursions into your field of operations.

So, you're saying I could fill an Eldar ship with daemons?

[Grim Portent]

So, you're saying I could fill an Eldar ship with daemons?

More likely your own ship since that's the first spot to have a small warp rift with juicy unguarded humans in it appear. Either way a daemonic incursion is unlikely but not worth the risk.

Based on the fluff for Grey Knight Interceptors the most likely result is just no one reaching their destination, or at least not in any state to fight.

[Wraith]

In a universe where political power = personal power, high value targets will be powerful, often enough to crush the terminators. Even with the 40K Terminator armor fluff (as opposed to Deathwatch/tabletop crunch) teleporting next to bunch of Ork Nobs/Warbosses, Hive Tyrants, Meks with SAGs, Melta totting crisis suits or Lychguard makes it very hard for your Hammernators to come out on top.

This is dissonance between fluff and crunch. On the tabletop, Hammernators are slow, cumbersome and prone to being needled to death by 10,000 papercuts (or, at least, being forced to roll a huge amount of saves until some of them show '1's). In the fluff, however, they are nigh indestructible, being trodden on by titans and hauling themselves out of a self-shaped crater to carry on fighting.

Terminator Armour doesn't work as well in open battle fields because they have little peripheral vision and too many of the few things that can potentially hurt them - tanks, dreadnoughts and so on - can get a clear line of sight over a large distance. Highly trained veterans in Terminator Armour, however, are still utterly lethal to virtually everything that it can get their hands on, up to and including Daemon Primarchs (even if that does result in some grotesque attrition besides).

[LCP]

It's kind of worth pointing out though that the fluff tends to hyperbole much more than the rules. In reality, there are upper limits to how durable you can make a suit of body armour, beyond which layering on more metal and purity seals isn't really helping. There are also a lot of weapons in the setting that trivially surpass those limits in terms of the damage they can inflict - and those weapons aren't even necessarily expensive or rare. c.f. Genestealer cults with repurposed mining equipment.

I tend to think of tabletop marines as the more accurate depiction than movie marines. It's more in line with them being products of actual genetic engineering than portraying them all as minor demigods.

[lord_khaine]

So, you're saying I could fill an Eldar ship with daemons?

I guess you could fill anyone's ship with demons. Though im not certain if there is any sort of official material regarding how easy it is to send someone though a shield with a teleporter, and it yet again coils back to "why not send a bomb instead?".


This is dissonance between fluff and crunch. On the tabletop, Hammernators are slow, cumbersome and prone to being needled to death by 10,000 papercuts (or, at least, being forced to roll a huge amount of saves until some of them show '1's). In the fluff, however, they are nigh indestructible, being trodden on by titans and hauling themselves out of a self-shaped crater to carry on fighting.

Terminator Armour doesn't work as well in open battle fields because they have little peripheral vision and too many of the few things that can potentially hurt them - tanks, dreadnoughts and so on - can get a clear line of sight over a large distance. Highly trained veterans in Terminator Armour, however, are still utterly lethal to virtually everything that it can get their hands on, up to and including Daemon Primarchs (even if that does result in some grotesque attrition besides).

Nah, if you go though that list then every singel entry is one that you would expect could handle a couple terminators.
(alright, every single one of them are things I would expect to chew up a few terminators)

[LCP]

^ agreed - anything capable of a tank kill should be capable of a terminator kill.

[Gauntlet]

Terminator armour does incorporate a power field in addition to just being super tough, to be fair, which I believe is missing from most vehicles for some reason.

[Artanis]

IIRC, you can't teleport through a ships shields (an enemy ship that is, you can teleport out from your own shields just fine, same as weapons fire I guess), so the only time that you're going to want to board someone is so you can get something of value, since if you just wanted to explode them, well, their shields are down, you could totally just keep shooting them and call it a day.


I guess you could fill anyone's ship with demons. Though im not certain if there is any sort of official material regarding how easy it is to send someone though a shield with a teleporter, and it yet again coils back to "why not send a bomb instead?".

In BFG, you can only make teleport attacks against enemy ships whose shields are down.

[Grim Portent]

It occurs to me that it's odd the Imperium and Chaos don't seem to use their Warp Drives in space battles at all. The things are usually depicted as working by tearing open a warp rift in front of the ship and then just flying into it.

Which means ships can tear open portals to hell over a distance. Why is this not used as a weapon?

[Artanis]

It occurs to me that it's odd the Imperium and Chaos don't seem to use their Warp Drives in space battles at all. The things are usually depicted as working by tearing open a warp rift in front of the ship and then just flying into it.

Which means ships can tear open portals to hell over a distance. Why is this not used as a weapon?

It takes time and energy to do, and the distance is actually quite short. I figure that if you're in range to catch something in your Warp engines' rift, you're close enough to spend that time and energy just shooting them.

I think there was at least one occasion where an Imperial ship overloaded its Warp engines in the middle of a Tyranid fleet as a kamikaze maneuver. It took out a hell of a lot of Tyranids, but it came at the cost of a nigh-irreplaceable ship.



Edit: Found the source, fixing things up. It was the Dominus Astra (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dominus_Astra), during the Battle for Macragge.

[Drasius]

It occurs to me that it's odd the Imperium and Chaos don't seem to use their Warp Drives in space battles at all. The things are usually depicted as working by tearing open a warp rift in front of the ship and then just flying into it.

Which means ships can tear open portals to hell over a distance. Why is this not used as a weapon?

Like Artanis said, they open a warp portal maybe a few hundred meters in front of them while engagements are fought at a range of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.

[LCP]

Vortex torpedoes are pretty much that though right? Stick a scaled-down warp drive on a torpedo and scoot it right up to the enemy.

[Forum Explorer]

You know, the fact that it goes through the warp might explain why teleporting bombs doesn't work. You might need a consciousness to actually move through the warp, or contain one at least. Else the object simply doesn't move.

Though you could just strap bombs to guardsmen then. Doesn't matter how poor of condition they are in when the go through, they'll blow up just fine. :smallcool:

[Grim Portent]

Bomb teleporting has been done at least once though.

In one of the Word Bearer's books they remote pilot a damaged loyalist ship towards a star fortress to goad it into lowering it's shields so the ship can 'escape' the pursuing chaos forces, then teleport some nuclear warheads onto it at the last second too late for them too detect them with scans and still have time to do anything about it.

[Forum Explorer]

Bomb teleporting has been done at least once though.

In one of the Word Bearer's books they remote pilot a damaged loyalist ship towards a star fortress to goad it into lowering it's shields so the ship can 'escape' the pursuing chaos forces, then teleport some nuclear warheads onto it at the last second too late for them too detect them with scans and still have time to do anything about it.

Nevermind then.

[lord_khaine]

Terminator armour does incorporate a power field in addition to just being super tough, to be fair, which I believe is missing from most vehicles for some reason.

Its just a limited power field though, and they got less armor than a actual vehicle. I mean, imperial guard commanders or inquisitors are also often given power fields of some type. Yet noone ever accused them of being anything besides squishy.


In BFG, you can only make teleport attacks against enemy ships whose shields are down.

Makes sense, its most likely also like that in the RPG.


It occurs to me that it's odd the Imperium and Chaos don't seem to use their Warp Drives in space battles at all. The things are usually depicted as working by tearing open a warp rift in front of the ship and then just flying into it.

Which means ships can tear open portals to hell over a distance. Why is this not used as a weapon?

It is, its just only the Eldars who are advanced enough to do so. Its the basis of all their D-weapons.


Edit: Found the source, fixing things up. It was the Dominus Astra, during the Battle for Macragge.

I do wonder where such a ship and a planet lies on the scale of importance. How many Tyranids do you need to off before the trade is worth it?

[Artanis]

As was said, teleporters don't go through shields.


To elaborate on where I'm coming from, in the BFG tabletop game, shields regenerate very, VERY quickly. You can knock shields down just fine, but once something stops getting blasted, its shields come right back the very next turn. Next, the BFG rulebook describe teleport attacks as requiring a LOT of power from the attacking ship's reactors as part of the reason why only big ships can use them, and then only once per turn. Also, they're quite short-range (10cm max, where most weapons are 30cm, FWIW).

So basically, if you're going to do a teleport attack, you get one shot to put a bomb somewhere inside the enemy ship. If you just wanted something over there to blow up and didn't care what it was, you would put all that extra power into the dozens of guns that cover the rest of your ship. So if you're doing a teleport attack in the first place, it means that you're willing to commit the time, resources, and effort to make absolutely f***ing certain that that one shot hits something critical :smallsmile:




Edit: apparently that took longer to type than I thought it would, because lord_khaine ninja'd me :smallredface:

[Grim Portent]

Bomb teleporting has been done at least once though.

In one of the Word Bearer's books they remote pilot a damaged loyalist ship towards a star fortress to goad it into lowering it's shields so the ship can 'escape' the pursuing chaos forces, then teleport some nuclear warheads onto it at the last second too late for them too detect them with scans and still have time to do anything about it.

To clarify since I realized I was a bit vague in this post, the bombs were teleported onto the damaged ship not onto the star fort.

Trying to 'port bombs onto a spaceship in combat seems kind of pointless to me, you can't guarantee a hit on your target because teleporting is inaccurate. At least with terminators they can walk to an important target even if they arrived in the wrong spot rather than just exploding there and then, not to mention that a lot of stuff in 40k just seems to be more durable than their weapons can generally destroy, at least from a distance. It's probably a lower expenditure of resources to teleport 5 super soldiers in antique armour to kill the enemy bridge crew than it is to fire enough shots to actually scuttle the ship.

[LCP]

Teleportation has to be more accurate than that, otherwise 90% of the time your teleport squad would end up fused into a wall.

[Borgh]

Why are we arguing "there are more practical way to do this" in 40k?
There are Mecha-knights, Titans, chainswords, gene-engineered infantry and starships occasionally ram each other.

Teleporters work because they are a really good way to get your heroes into the action (or out, as the story demands).

Otherwise the book won't contain nearly enough heretics being laminated across a wall.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Teleporters work because they are a really good way to get your heroes into the action (or out, as the story demands).

Teleporters are used because they run on pure narrative. :smallwink:

[Brookshw]

Otherwise the book won't contain nearly enough heretics being laminated across a wall.

There is no such thing as "enough":smallcool:

[Wraith]

Like Artanis said, they open a warp portal maybe a few hundred meters in front of them while engagements are fought at a range of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.

Different books and authors seem to describe it in different ways. Some describe the translation as opening a doorway ahead of the ship, which then flies forwards and into the 'hole' in space. Some others - and I'm thinking of Deliverance Lost here - instead describe it as a 'bubble' opening around the ship; the vessel does not specifically move into the warp, but it just sort of.... fades from one dimension into the other.

This is significant because when this is described, Corax is using his Warp Drive to ambush a World Eaters' ship, sneaking right up close to it and hitting the Big Red Button in order to drop both ships into the warp before the Traitors have a chance to bring up their Gellar Field. The translation has to happen 'around' the ship and not in front of it, otherwise the manoeuvre doesn't work as described.

Given the fractured nature of Imperial technology, quite possibly both methods are true for different types of ships. Corax' in particular is a newer design with a stealth generator and other unusual technology, so it's not for certain that his warp drive is necessarily a standard model.

[LeSwordfish]

Worth considering that the doorway would work for that trick so long as the doorway's position was relative to an external reference point, not the two ships - everything in space is orbiting something, after all.

[Cheesegear]

Some describe the translation as opening a doorway ahead of the ship, which then flies forwards and into the 'hole' in space.

Craftworld Iyanden specifically drops the warp hole behind them in order to escape the Tyranids.
This is also the popular way to do it, and how most people view it, because Dawn of War.


some instead describe it as a 'bubble' opening around the ship; the vessel does not specifically move into the warp, but it just sort of.... fades from one dimension into the other.

I always thought that it was Corax specifically designing his ships to do a Raven Guard trick, and/or Gav Thorpe being terrible.


Corax' in particular is a newer design with a stealth generator and other unusual technology, so it's not for certain that his warp drive is necessarily a standard model.

Now you mention it. :smallwink:

[Forum Explorer]

Craftworld Iyanden specifically drops the warp hole behind them in order to escape the Tyranids.
This is also the popular way to do it, and how most people view it, because Dawn of War.



I always thought that it was Corax specifically designing his ships to do a Raven Guard trick, and/or Gav Thorpe being terrible.



Now you mention it. :smallwink:

Wait what? I thought Craftworld Iyanden didn't escape the Tyranids, they had to fight them off. Also Eldar don't go directly into the Warp.

[Cheesegear]

Wait what? I thought Craftworld Iyanden didn't escape the Tyranids, they had to fight them off. Also Eldar don't go directly into the Warp.

They did both. In both Codex: Iyanden and in War Zone: Valedor, it mentions that in order to survive Kraken, they had to split into two (similar to what happens in Shield of Baal, where they send a Prison Ship full of biomass to the outer edges of the System to split the Tendril). In order to split Kraken, Iyanden dropped a hole behind itself, which the Tyranids went into. Iyanden then had to fight off the other half, which they couldn't have done, had the Tendril been at full strength.

[DataNinja]

They did both. In both Codex: Iyanden and in War Zone: Valedor, it mentions that in order to survive Kraken, they had to split into two (similar to what happens in Shield of Baal, where they send a Prison Ship full of biomass to the outer edges of the System to split the Tendril). In order to split Kraken, Iyanden dropped a hole behind itself, which the Tyranids went into. Iyanden then had to fight off the other half, which they couldn't have done, had the Tendril been at full strength.

That sounds more like the effect some kind of Imperium-Sized ridiculously mega Distortion-cannon would have. Except, of course, I'm sure it's not, but that's what it seems like it should be. Unless the text is suggesting that they opened a hole into the webway, which would be a monumentally stupid idea.

[Kris Strife]

There is no such thing as "enough":smallcool:

Sure there is. It's all of them.

[Eldan]

That sounds more like the effect some kind of Imperium-Sized ridiculously mega Distortion-cannon would have. Except, of course, I'm sure it's not, but that's what it seems like it should be. Unless the text is suggesting that they opened a hole into the webway, which would be a monumentally stupid idea.

Not the webway, no. Valedor is quite clear, they displaced half a nid tendril into the warp.

[lord_khaine]

Not the webway, no. Valedor is quite clear, they displaced half a nid tendril into the warp.

Well.. i guess if your D-cannon gets big enough.. thats what happens..

[Wraith]

Craftworld Iyanden specifically drops the warp hole behind them in order to escape the Tyranids.
This is also the popular way to do it, and how most people view it, because Dawn of War.

Plenty of Imperial ships are also described as "dropping" into and out of the Warp, I thought it was just a figure of speech; a colloquialism to define the point of entry and agress.
For example, the Millenium Falcon "drops" out of hyperspace and the Enterprise "drops" out of Warpspeed despite both just appearing to slow down abruptly. It's a generic sci-fi term and I'm not sure that it can always be relied upon to be a literal description (Craftworld Iyanden being the exception in this case, of course).

Although I do like the idea that a warp fissure can be created under a vessel, and then they suddenly plunge downwards into the Hell Dimension awaiting "beneath the skin of reality" as some have put it. Still, point is, we've established that there is no one standard way in which warp fissures are opened; different ships do it in different ways, which I guess is handy for various authors.


I always thought that it was Corax specifically designing his ships to do a Raven Guard trick, and/or Gav Thorpe being terrible.

Given how every one else on the bridge was bug-eyed with fear as he was doing it, and the colossal risk involved in a trick which even Corax says no one else but a Primarch would have been able to achieve, I interpreted that scene as something desperate that he'd only just come up with in an emergency. After all, if that is what his ship was designed to do, one would imagine that his bridge crew would also be aware of it and not convinced that he was attempting a convoluted form of suicide. :smalltongue:


That sounds more like the effect some kind of Imperium-Sized ridiculously mega Distortion-cannon would have. Except, of course, I'm sure it's not, but that's what it seems like it should be. Unless the text is suggesting that they opened a hole into the webway, which would be a monumentally stupid idea.

It's actually quite amusing that what the Imperium considers to be the pinnacle of interstellar logistics, in fact works in exactly the same way as what the Eldar consider to be an extremely unstable and utterly deadly weapon of mass destruction. Probably for a very good reason.... :smallbiggrin:

[Rizhail]

Eldar actually do have some forms of warp travel, utilized in small amounts by the Warp Spiders and to greater effect by the crazier Corsairs. It's just that most Eldar consider going into the Warp to be worse than suicidal, so they tend to either use it as a weapon or avoid it entirely (save for the use of psychic powers, obviously).

[LeSwordfish]

I'm thinking of putting together a Deathwatch Kill Team, to ally into my Inquisition and use as a Kill Team for small games, since that seems to be a lot of what my friends play. I'm asking in here because I have pretty solid ideas about what I want the Kill Team members to be, and want fluff advice on what chapters for some of the other classes - i'm thinking of your standard Ragtag Group Of Heroes, and want to not use the same ten-twelve chapters everyone does.

This will be made with a Veterans Box and a Vanguard box. I'm going to make a Librarian as well: not every model needs to be in the 200pt kill team, but I want enough options to swap back and forward between those.

The Leader - Mentors
- Veteran Sargeant with Powersword and Bolt Pistol
The Sniper - Raptors
- Veteran with Stalker Boltgun
The Heavy Weapons Guy - ???
- Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter
The Reckless Scout - ???
- Veteran with Shotgun
The Demolitions Guy - ???
- Veteran with combi-melta and grenades
The Knight - Fire Hawks
- Vanguard Veteran with Storm Shield and Powersword
The Brawler - Minotaurs
- Vanguard Veteran with Powersword and Power Axe
The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran
The Mysterious Guy With A Hammer - Iron Warriors Black Shield
- Veteran with Thunder Hammer (And Storm Shield?)
The Diviner - Silver Skulls
- Librarian with Force Sword and book/runes

You kind of get the Action Movie feel I want, with your grizzled sargeant, your gruff sniper and reckless shotgun guy. I know some obvious ones - white scars run up and shoot people with shotguns, Raven Guard have lightning claws - I just wanted some slightly less obvious choices.

I am probably going to make one of them a member of the Emperor's Pointy Sticks.

[LCP]

The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran

Ork commando in a Kunnin Disguise (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/20336256/images/1345216518297.jpg).

'e's bin in deep kuvva so long 'e's gone native

[DataNinja]

I am probably going to make one of them a member of the Emperor's Pointy Sticks.

Clearly the demolitions guy. Oh, wait... you wanted the opponents stuff blown up? :smalltongue:

[Rizhail]

Ork commando in a Kunnin Disguise (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/20336256/images/1345216518297.jpg).

'e's bin in deep kuvva so long 'e's gone native

Turns out, the Deathwatch is getting desperate enough to take ANYONE (http://imgur.com/r/Warhammer40k/5LfyH) as a black shield.

[Wraith]

The Heavy Weapons Guy - ???
- Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter

Consecrators? (Dark Angels descendants; specialise in possessing a ridiculous amount of archeotech and Heresy-era weapons)


The Reckless Scout - ???
- Veteran with Shotgun

Carcharodons? (They lurk beneath the galactic plane, rising up only to strike out of nowhere!)
Howling Griffons? (Prone to swearing oaths and sticking to them no matter the cost - just the sort of guys to volunteer for a dangerous solo-mission? Also a really cool pauldron to paint!)


The Demolitions Guy - ???
- Veteran with combi-melta and grenades

Imperial Fists? (Renowned as siege specialists, so this guy is the siege-breaker rather than the architect)


The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran

"Lancer" is usually the term in media for the guy who lunges into a fight and generally gets s*** done.

I'd say Black Dragons, because those guys are cool and it gives you someone who can be a little wild and run ahead of the group.
Or possibly Doom Eagles, who are famous for once equipping their entire consignment of Tactical, Assault and Devastator Marines with Jump Packs to peform a stunning blitzkrieg on an entrenched enemy?
Alternatively, Rainbow Warriors. He's so freakin' sick of everyone making fun of his colourful stripy emblem that he keeps out of their way and has a lot of anger to burn off? :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Shotgun scout could be Night Swords (Imperial Fists successors that are even more aggressive once they've decided on a course of action), or Rainbow Warriors.

I would actually go with the demolitions guy for Howling Griffons, but that's just me.

Heavy weapons guy could be Crimson Fists?

[Cheesegear]

The Heavy Weapons Guy - ???
- Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter

Star Phantom or Son of Medusa.


The Reckless Scout - ???
- Veteran with Shotgun

SPACE SHARK!!! Mantis Warrior. As a Scout, he's not entirely aware of the Badab War and how that all went down (912.M41, 80 years ago), but everyone else in the Team totally remembers that Mantis Warriors were on the Bad Team.


The Demolitions Guy - ???
- Veteran with combi-melta and grenades

Fire Lord, obviously.


The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran

The Berzerker. I notice that you don't have a dude with double Lightning Claws. SPACE SHARK. Not friends with the Minotaur.

Alternatively, The Dark Horse, make him an Invader Marine (one of the closer Chapters to Loyalist Night Lords). Power Fist & Lightning Claw. Though if that feels dumb because 50ppm, then Lightning Claw or Power Fist and Storm Shield is just as good. Every Kill Team needs a guy who is simply willing to do bad things for the sake of the Team.

Or, Executioner. One who actually fought in the Badab War, and totally fought for Huron. Joining the Deathwatch is his penance for the things he did. Renegade for Life, though. If you're not going to use a Space Wolf or White Scar to be 'the guy who doesn't do what he's told', then an Executioner would fit the bill. Also, the Mantis Warrior gets an actual friend. Except that everyone keeps telling the Scout that the Executioner is a Bad Influence, except, that to the Scout, the Executioner is the only one who treats him nicely - that's how they get you.

[Wraith]

Shotgun scout could be .... Rainbow Warriors.

May I ask why you think they fit? Rainbow Warriors don't actually have a personality, since they're a throw-back to a weird time in the 80's that hideously old people like me won't let GW forget, and no serious author wants to write about them.

The idea that other Chapters make fun of them and they're sick up to their back teeth of it, is entirely due to my imagination and one throw-away joke in one obscure audiodrama. :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

May I ask why you think they fit? Rainbow Warriors don't actually have a personality, since they're a throw-back to a weird time in the 80's that hideously old people like me won't let GW forget, and no serious author wants to write about them.

The idea that other Chapters make fun of them and they're sick up to their back teeth of it, is entirely due to my imagination and one throw-away joke in one obscure audiodrama. :smalltongue:

Well the name makes me think of Aztecs and generally flashy warriors. A shotgun fits the flashiness.

This is just from my own attempt at thinking up something for them to fill in the lost legions.

[LeSwordfish]

I've only skim-read so far, but any Rainbow Warrior is getting cool stone close combat weapons.

[Destro_Yersul]

Emperor's Pointy Sticks should be the demo guy, I agree. I miss that comic. I still have the set of D6's with the Pointy Sticks emblem that I bought ages ago.

[CN the Logos]

So, I was just given the Burning of Prospero boxset (minus the Custodes and Sisters, plus the unit of Cataphractii terminators and the HQs from the Betrayal at Calth boxset) for my birthday, so I guess I'm starting 30k now. Now, obviously Thousand Sons are the best legion, we don't need to say more about that. But Google is giving me some inconsistent results and I wanted to ask the people here; do we know when the Sons went blue, exactly? Because I like their 40k color scheme, but I want to be at least moderately true to the canon in this case. Some people are saying it was explicitly part of the Rubric, other people are saying it happened after the burning of Prospero but the exact time isn't specified. Could blue and gold Sons represent a post-Prospero pre-Rubric force? If not, I still like the red color scheme, but I figured I'd ask about my options before putting paint to model.

Thanks.

[LeSwordfish]

Howling Griffons? (Prone to swearing oaths and sticking to them no matter the cost - just the sort of guys to volunteer for a dangerous solo-mission? Also a really cool pauldron to paint!)

Having read the Howling Griffons section in one of the Badab war books, i'm thinking one of them for a Sargeant (if only because i'll only have one Bird Head pauldron and will need it for the Raptor.)


"Lancer" is usually the term in media for the guy who lunges into a fight and generally gets s*** done.

So, like everyone else in the Deathwatch? :smallbiggrin:


Star Phantom or Son of Medusa.

I like the idea of the Son Of Medusa, definitely: Iron Hands But Not, if you get me.


Mantis Warrior. As a Scout, he's not entirely aware of the Badab War and how that all went down (912.M41, 80 years ago), but everyone else in the Team totally remembers that Mantis Warriors were on the Bad Team.

Oh man, and the Fire Hawks and Mantis Warriors spent the entire Badab war directly fighting each other.

Fire Hawk: I do not trust this Neonate's reports. The scion of betrayers will be a betrayer too.
Howling Griffon: Their chapter paid their penance, Demetrius: your return to the war does us all no favors.
Mantis Warrior: No, no, let him say his piece. I'll defend my chapter's honor if necessary.
Emperor's Pointy Stick: **** HIM UP, SAITAQ

(This requires assuming that the Mantis Warriors could still send neophytes to the deathwatch despite being halfway through a Penitent Crusade, but... shush, it works.)

I think I might go for the Emperor's Pointy Stick as the demo guy. That just leaves the last veteran...It's a shame Vanguard Veterans can't dual-wield bolt pistols, really - i'm very tempted by Dual Claws and Charcarodon, or Fist/Shield and Something Punchy. I might be able to take both: I was planning on buying a set of legs so the Pointy Stickbomber can crouch down to plant bombs: I bet i've got a spare torso somewhere to make an eleventh person. The Iron Warrior ("You can totally come back after a betrayal, trust me.") will mostly be MK3 Armour anyway.

[Drasius]

Could blue and gold Sons represent a post-Prospero pre-Rubric force? If not, I still like the red color scheme, but I figured I'd ask about my options before putting paint to model.

Not really. The generally agreed upon timeline is that Prospero gets raided and burned, the remaining 1500'ish living Thousand Sons flee through Magnus' portal to the planet of the sorcerors that was waiting for them (Just As Planned) where they settled in. Roughly 5 minutes later, the flesh change came back with a vengance. Ahriman and a few others of the TSons studied the flesh change in search of a way to reverse it to no avail for years. Ahriman looked through Magnus' grimoure and cobbled together what we know as the Rubric of Ahriman (though there were a bunch of other people who were involved in the casting). Ahriman asked Magnus for help but was told to stop all research and that Magnus "had more important things to do with his time" than to help Ahriman find a cure for their legion. Ahriman goes on a trippy galaxy spanning soul journey with Magnus so he can see why Magnus has abandoned them, but after he comes back, he continues with his research anyway, despite Magnus issuing the same proclamation that the Emperor forbade the TSons from using magic to Ahriman about continuing his research. Ahriman is terrified of the flesh change taking him like it did his brother and conspires with many other sorcerors to form a cabal and cast the Rubric. They do so, and Magnus pops over and banishes Ahriman and the survivors from the planet of the sorcerors.

The line where they change armour colours gets hazy here, there are some stories that say that they changed pretty much immediately, via magical means, other stories say that they only changed many years later, but the consensus is that Blue and Gold is definately post Rubric. Having said that, if you like the Blue and gold, paint them that way, they'll look awesome. Just get ready for a bunch of compliments on how nice your Ultramarines look :smallannoyed: Who knows, with all the stuff that's alledgedly coming out for the thousand sons in the next few months (The 2nd part to Warzone Fenris, possibly their own codex, Magnus is apparently slated as the next primarch book, there's the other half of ADB's Horus trilogy (as narrated by one of the main opponents to Ahriman's casting of the rubric} and then finally the big one of Inferno from Forgeworld), anything and everything that is canon now could totally change. Paint 'em the colour that you think looks rad, that's what I reckon.

[Wraith]

Who knows, with all the stuff that's alledgedly coming out for the thousand sons in the next few months (The 2nd part to Warzone Fenris, possibly their own codex, Magnus is apparently slated as the next primarch book, there's the other half of ADB's Horus trilogy (as narrated by one of the main opponents to Ahriman's casting of the rubric} and then finally the big one of Inferno from Forgeworld), anything and everything that is canon now could totally change. Paint 'em the colour that you think looks rad, that's what I reckon.

This is pretty much the best advice. You'll probably get more from the next HH book than anything else that has already been written.

There are, however, two leading theories as to why the Thousand Sons are Blue and Gold now. The biggest that has been mentioned is the Rubric, that the change from red to blue was part of the will of Tzeentch and the spell that Ahriman cast imposed more changes than just dusting the non-Psykers in the Legion.

The other answer is simply "Warbands". Like all of the other Legions, the Thousand Sons fractured into even smaller groups after Magnus made it clear that he wasn't coming back. Some went off and joined other Legions - Iskandar Khayon painted his and all of his cadres' armour black when he joined up with Abaddon, for example - whereas others founded their own warbands and took up their own colours.
Presumably, given that the Blue/Gold scheme goes back to Second Edition when the only Thousand Sons character was Ahriman, Blue/Gold were the colour that he took up after his exile and for a long time that's what was associated with the entire Legion, for want of another source.

So as such, paint 'em however you want. Somewhere in the canon, there's always a reason as to why your army does what it does; fractured, unruly and cut-loose warbands more so than most, in fact. If you want to be red and gold, it just means that your warband is probably still specifically loyal to Magnus and/or the old ideals of the Legion, while everyone else has become disillusioned with the idea.

[Drasius]

... when the only Thousand Sons character was Ahriman, Blue/Gold were the colour that he took up after his exile and for a long time that's what was associated with the entire Legion, for want of another source.

So as such, paint 'em however you want. Somewhere in the canon, there's always a reason as to why your army does what it does; fractured, unruly and cut-loose warbands more so than most, in fact. If you want to be red and gold, it just means that your warband is probably still specifically loyal to Magnus and/or the old ideals of the Legion, while everyone else has become disillusioned with the idea.

Since the Sorcerors still loyal to Magnus spend a large portion of their time in their own towers/labs/den/hive/whatever while Ahriman is forever raiding secrets in the Imperium and antagonising Inquisitors, this is the likely story. In the Ahriman trillogy there's quite a bit of insight into other characters and also a bit of info around how the other half went about their business towards the end of the trilogy and it's made clear that they're still red and gold whereas Ahriman's motley crew are generally doing their own thing.

Pre-Rubric though, there's really no solid justification to paint them anything other than red/white/gold, other than it looks even more awesome in Blue/Gold, but really that's all you need. If you've got the sort of group that worries about the correct company markings and shoulder trims then you might get a few pointed comments, but rare is the time when I've seen Thousand Sons look anything else but great as they're solid competitors for worst unit in the game, so only the people who like them enough to either lose or just paint them 'cause they're cool take them up. That and it's pretty difficult to screw up Blue/Gold.

[Cheesegear]

Fire Hawk: I do not trust this Neonate's reports. The scion of betrayers will be a betrayer too.

I'd also like to think/hope that the Mantis' assumed recklessness comes from a desire to prove himself to his peers (Notice me, Senpai! *vomit*), rather than any c/overt stupidity.

[LeSwordfish]

I'd also like to think/hope that the Mantis' assumed recklessness comes from a desire to prove himself to his peers (Notice me, Senpai! *vomit*), rather than any c/overt stupidity.

The Mantis Warriors don't have a chapter planet (it was given to the charcarodons - talk about bad luck with new neighbours), so don't do recruitment any more. I would assume that in such a situation, the process of moving from Scout to full marine is rather more flexible - you need to keep the tactical companies topped up properly, while also having your sneaky sniper marines to do sneaky sniper things. As such, if you're a Mantis Warriors Scout in m41.999, you've been a scout for eighty-a hundred years, and you're still a scout because you're damn good at it.

This isn't M41 though - Demetrius is a Fire Hawk now, so he can return from the deathwatch and start rebuilding his chapter. This kill-team is set around the time the Fire Hawks vanished - 963.M41. So Saiteq (I'm getting used to that name) has been a Mantis Warriors Scout for around fifty years, he's a damn good scout, and when recruited for the deathwatch finds that he's every bit as good a scout in heavy armour as he is in a camo-cloak. Lets say, he never fought in the Badab War itself, but Fifty Years sounds like a good amount of time to go from a new recruit to a precocious member of the deathwatch. He was probably recruited for the Badab war (or trained during it.) Saiteq spent his entire recruitment process with pictures of Fire Hawks as the targets on the shooting range - and now he's fighting alongside what is, by all means, the last one.

Saiteq was the best in his entire company - probably among the best outside the First Company. Now one member of his team keeps calling him "Betrayer", and at least two others won't hold eye contact. Damn right he has a lot to prove.

(Twenty years later, the Fire Hawks are officially judged "Extinct". Demetrius leaves the Deathwatch, returns to his old livery, and starts rebuilding his chapter, largely by recruiting from other chapters. Who do you reckon ends up as his Scout Captain?)

[Cheesegear]

The Mantis Warriors don't have a chapter planet ... so don't do recruitment any more.

Wrong. Crusade Chapters recruit from any world they come across that appears to have suitable stock. Black Templars don't have a Chapter Planet, and they number close to 8000 or so. If not having a Chapter planet somehow prevented you from recruiting, Crusade Chapters would not exist. At all.

[Drasius]

Black Templars don't have a Chapter Planet, and they number close to 8000 or so.

I'm fairly sure that you meant to say 1000 marines, eh CG, wink wink nudge nudge, being that they're totally a codex compliant chapter and all and would totally never break any rules by going overstrength while purging the dirty xenos from the Emperor's galaxy. Yep, definately must have meant to type 1000, easy mistake to make...

[LeSwordfish]

Wrong. Crusade Chapters recruit from any world they come across that appears to have suitable stock. Black Templars don't have a Chapter Planet, and they number close to 8000 or so. If not having a Chapter planet somehow prevented you from recruiting, Crusade Chapters would not exist. At all.

I'm not "Wrong", thank you, I merely summarised.


It was further judged that the other surviving secessionist chapters would have to each undertake a hundred year penitent crusade to atone for their transgressions, and must do so without the right to recruit new brethren during this time.

Imperial Armour, The Badab War Book II.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not "Wrong", thank you, I merely summarised.

Ah. So the fact that they don't recruit isn't because they don't have a homeworld, it's because they're specifically banned from doing so.

[LeSwordfish]

Yes- my apologies I implied otherwise.

[Cheesegear]

But now I want to write a story about a Mantis Warrior Scout titled Sins of the Fathers.

[Wraith]

A title which, frankly, could apply to each and every Chapter in existence.

....Except maybe the Celestial Lions, and even then their "Sins" were more like the good intentions which we all know pave the way to the cold place. :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Wrong. Crusade Chapters recruit from any world they come across that appears to have suitable stock. Black Templars don't have a Chapter Planet, and they number close to 8000 or so. If not having a Chapter planet somehow prevented you from recruiting, Crusade Chapters would not exist. At all.

Black Templars have never been stated to be 8000 strong, they're only around 1200-2000 strong (3-4 crusades with the documented one being around 450 strong) in pretty much every source going back to 3rd ed, with 3-4000 being only rumoured. With 2-4 Fighting Companies per crusade they don't even have an abnormal number of companies for a Space Marine chapter, its just that their companies are 120-220 strong.

Since the Ultramarines are at least 1200 strong normally if you actually add them up, the Black Templars are barely over codex strength.

Black Templars also have a vastly higher proportion of neophytes to full marines, due to massive attrition rates caused by an obsession with blunt force idiot tactics (ignoring the codex astartes doesn't make you smart, sorry Guilliman haters).

[Wraith]

Black Templars have never been stated to be 8000 strong, they're only around 1200-2000 strong (3-4 crusades with the documented one being around 450 strong) in pretty much every source going back to 3rd ed, with 3-4000 being only rumoured. .

Codex Black Templars (4th Edition) stated outright that they were 5-6,000 strong.

The most recent tally in Eternal Crusader (2014) says that they are currently back down to 1,000. The author, Guy Haley, has since said that the Templars vary greatly depending on the time period and the conflict, and will fluctuate between Codex Compliant and radically oversubscribed.
The important thing to remember is that the Templars don't actually care; they recruit whoever they like and attrition sees to the rest.

[Blackhawk748]

Also they kinda get away with it cuz they never have all of the Templars together at the same time, so people like the Inquisition get less pissy.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Codex Black Templars (4th Edition) stated outright that they were 5-6,000 strong.


There are usually no more than three Crusades at any one time, though there are occasionally many more. Indeed, the Black Templars' own history shows that during the Treachery of Dalmark, there were as many as fourteen Crusades fighting across the Segmentum Solar. The size of a Crusade can also vary widely, sometimes as few as fifty to a hundred warriors, sometimes the equivalent of several Companies from a Codex Chapter. Only the High Marshal of the Chapter has any idea how many Black Templar Space Marines there are, but it is obvious that they are far more numerous than most conventional Chapters, although dispersed over a much wider area. If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five to six thousand battle brethren in total, a force that would be all but unstoppable if ever gathered in a single place.

That's not stating anything outright. Its just that everyone naturally wants to believe the 'rumoured' number as the correct one even if it doesn't add up and some people inflate it over that because they feel like it.

Three crusades equivalent to several companies in size is just not that big a chapter and the description of 'mini' crusades implies that when there's more than three crusades that doesn't have to mean their numbers have massively increased. For there to be 5-6000 it would require 4000 to be sitting around Chapter Keeps in reserve rather than crusading which kind of goes against the point of the Black Templars.


Also they kinda get away with it cuz they never have all of the Templars together at the same time, so people like the Inquisition get less pissy.

Paranoia is the Inquisition's job. They've had more codex compliant chapters wiped out than spent time pissing off the big name legion building suspects.

[bluntpencil]

Also worth noting, besides the fact that they're spread out, is that they're not setting up fortresses beyond Chapter Keeps, and not setting themselves up as rulers.

They're out doing the Emperor's work, not stopping to bask in the glory of it. they're kicking alien ass, and asking no reward for it, beyond being allowed to do it. They're not the Astral Claws, trying to become tyrants of a local sector, but a bunch of guys that can't sit down for five minutes, who will quite happily head off outside the Imperium to kill bad guys.

[lord_khaine]

I do think a much more deciding factor is that space is HUGE. And the Imperium is a gigantic garbled bureaucracy.

To keep track of if there is 1000 or 2000 Black Space Marines is an impossible task. Especially when they dont have any fixed base and instead moves around randomly on their own. Both when warp travel muddles the issue, and when reports of what Marines that actually came can be hard to keep track of.

Im sure there are a lot of other chapters that could be confused with Black Templars.

[Demon 997]

So our DM is having us write in character reports for our Dark Heresy game, detailing adventures thus far, and our recent encounter with a pack of Necrons.

I'm trying to come up with some military sounding acronym, which just happens to spell out N.E.C.R.ON. Does the playground have thoughts?

My best so far is National security Enemy Causing Retreating Officers and NCOs, but this doesn't really fit with how we fought them.

Adding in: N class threat, Engage at Company strength, Request Ordinance Now.

[Brookshw]

So our DM is having us write in character reports for our Dark Heresy game, detailing adventures thus far, and our recent encounter with a pack of Necrons.

I'm trying to come up with some military sounding acronym, which just happens to spell out N.E.C.R.ON. Does the playground have thoughts?

My best so far is National security Enemy Causing Retreating Officers and NCOs, but this doesn't really fit with how we fought them.

Adding in: N class threat, Engage at Company strength, Request Ordinance Now.

National
Emergency
Crisis/Contingency
Response
Ordinance =
Nukes.

[Drasius]

So our DM is having us write in character reports for our Dark Heresy game, detailing adventures thus far, and our recent encounter with a pack of Necrons.

I'm trying to come up with some military sounding acronym, which just happens to spell out N.E.C.R.ON. Does the playground have thoughts?

My best so far is National security Enemy Causing Retreating Officers and NCOs, but this doesn't really fit with how we fought them.

Adding in: N class threat, Engage at Company strengthNominal Enemy Casualties, Request Ordinance Now.!

Fixed.

10 char.

[The Glyphstone]

Shouldn't that be "No Enemy Casualties, Request Ordnance Now!"? They are Necrons, after all.

[Cheesegear]

NOPE!
Escape...
Crap!
Run!
Oh noes!
Nuke it from orbit.

[Drasius]

Shouldn't that be "No Enemy Casualties, Request Ordnance Now!"? They are Necrons, after all.

If it's anything like the games I played on the weekend, that's exactly how it should read.

[Demon 997]

If it's anything like the games I played on the weekend, that's exactly how it should read.

If it's the same game I played this weekend, we downed them just fine. They just wouldn't stay dead, and then teleported out.

[Wardog]

So our DM is having us write in character reports for our Dark Heresy game, detailing adventures thus far, and our recent encounter with a pack of Necrons.

I'm trying to come up with some military sounding acronym, which just happens to spell out N.E.C.R.ON. Does the playground have thoughts?

My best so far is National security Enemy Causing Retreating Officers and NCOs, but this doesn't really fit with how we fought them.

Adding in: N class threat, Engage at Company strength, Request Ordinance Now.

Need Evacuation. Company Retreating. Opposition Near.

Negative. Exterminatus Confirmed. Range Optimal - Now.

[shadow_archmagi]

So our DM is having us write in character reports for our Dark Heresy game, detailing adventures thus far, and our recent encounter with a pack of Necrons.

I'm trying to come up with some military sounding acronym, which just happens to spell out N.E.C.R.ON. Does the playground have thoughts?

My best so far is National security Enemy Causing Retreating Officers and NCOs, but this doesn't really fit with how we fought them.

Adding in: N class threat, Engage at Company strength, Request Ordinance Now.

Nonorganic
Enemy with
Combat
Revivification.
Optimal response:
Nukes.

[Brookshw]

Finally finished painting my Goff Rockers, had plenty of fun making the stage and tried to incorporate the colors of the official Electric Mayhem,....sort of. Realized after the fact that I should have painted the trukk as the original bus,....but....red is for speed metal I suppose!

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/brookshw/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20overview_zpsyjoj4vqc.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/brookshw/media/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20overview_zpsyjoj4vqc.jpg.htm l) http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/brookshw/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20side%20view_zpsofjzqizp.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/brookshw/media/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20side%20view_zpsofjzqizp.jpg. html) http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/brookshw/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20back%20view_zpscdlz40fa.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/brookshw/media/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20back%20view_zpscdlz40fa.jpg. html)

Kind of hard to read the words on the rear under the stage with the lighting, but there's a gold star with the words "Bak Stage" and "Zog Off". Also the "Volme" lever on the speaker goes "Sum", "Nuff" and "11".

Wasn't really happy with the lighting attempts around the torches so any suggests are more than welcome!

[Drasius]

Finally finished painting my Goff Rockers...
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/brookshw/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20overview_zpsyjoj4vqc.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/brookshw/media/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20overview_zpsyjoj4vqc.jpg.htm l) http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/brookshw/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20side%20view_zpsofjzqizp.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/brookshw/media/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20side%20view_zpsofjzqizp.jpg. html) http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/brookshw/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20back%20view_zpscdlz40fa.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/brookshw/media/Dr%20Teef%20resized%20back%20view_zpscdlz40fa.jpg. html)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcBPd16qS3w

[lord_khaine]

Finally finished painting my Goff Rockers, had plenty of fun making the stage and tried to incorporate the colors of the official Electric Mayhem,....sort of. Realized after the fact that I should have painted the trukk as the original bus,....but....red is for speed metal I suppose!

Brilliant! thats the sort of wackyness that makes me love to play against orks :smallbiggrin:

[LeSwordfish]

I finished kitbashing together my Kill Team. I gotta say, the Deathwatch kit is disappointing: plenty of options, but all sculpted in the same few ways. Still, that's what bits boxes are for, and I can make back a chunk of money by selling the frag cannon.

Kill Team Argent

Prognosticator Argent, Silver Skulls (Librarian, Team Leader)
Preferring to co-ordinate the efforts of the team from a distance, Argent is a powerful diviner and farseer, with a particular expertise in the runes of the Eldar, and a library of divinatory tomes.
http://i.imgur.com/6wAMStR.jpg

Blackshield, codename "Furnace"
The blackshield only known as Furnace arrived at the watch fortress a significant amount of time ago, with the psy-stench of warptime dilation and an archaic pattern of thunder hammer.
http://i.imgur.com/XRjphH8.jpg

Sargeant Ran-Daan, Mentor Legion
Sargeant of the kill team, and leader of their efforts in the field, Ran-Daan is a veteran of long service working with the imperial guard and inquisition, and experienced with many different mission tactics and attack patterns.
http://i.imgur.com/NUZJ0Bt.jpg

Knight-Veteran Demetrius, Fire Hawks
A grim, unswerving warrior, Demetrius acquitted himself well in the first company of the Fire Hawks and was tipped for a company captaincy or champion role before being seconded to the deathwatch.
http://i.imgur.com/X62pnNI.jpg

Scout Saiteq, Mantis Warriors
The first Mantis Warrior to be recruited to the Deathwatch since the Badab war, Saiteq came highly recommended due to his scouting and stealth skills.
http://i.imgur.com/RfUZMU3.jpg

Marksman Isaak Elijah, Raptors
A long-time deathwatch veteran, Elijah was recruited after completing an assassination mission against two tau ethereals, despite losing a leg to an attack by stealth suits.
http://i.imgur.com/biyZDxJ.jpg

Brother Rowan, Emperor's Pointy Sticks Staves
A penchant for high explosives and the... casual temperament of the Emperor's Staves chapter may not seem like a natural combination, but Rowan has proven an effective demolitions trooper, for targets sufficiently far away from the rest of his team. Or any civilians, or any weak buildings.
http://i.imgur.com/U1vZThc.jpg

Brother Aeschlyos, Minotaurs
Aeschlyos is noted for his wildness in battle, usually wielding twinned power weapons and attacking the largest possible groups of enemies. When properly directed - usually by Demetrius and Elijah - this makes him a highly effective warrior.
http://i.imgur.com/Jmuty5B.jpg

Davlan Kane, Sons Of Medusa
A veteran of the fierce shipboard fighting during the badab war, Bane is an expert in the operation and maintenance of heavy and special weapons, and acts as the team's engineer, largely to keep Rowan from the job.
http://i.imgur.com/7vWrIuR.jpg


Brother Darien, Hawk Lords
A veteran pilot and assault marine, Darien took to ground operations and retrained for stealth during his time with Elijah and Saiteq.
http://i.imgur.com/gZ9CAAP.jpg

I also have six other guys, plus a Contemptor Dreadnought, but nobody cares since they're not named.

[Drasius]

Not sure if your links are busted (I assume there's meant to be pictures there in the spoilers?) or my internet is all wonky since it's been playing up lately.

[Destro_Yersul]

Can't see any of the pictures. Trying to quote and copy paste gets access forbidden, so I'm assuming there's a permissions issue.

[LeSwordfish]

Knew I couldn't trust Google Drive. Pictures should be fixed by now. EDIT: Except they're upside down, because thats the kind of thing Dropbox thinks is funny?

[Destro_Yersul]

Well, the Minotaur and the Hawk Lord aren't upside down. Also I demand more pictures once they're painted.

[LeSwordfish]

Should all be fixed now.

[Kesnit]

Being a Gray Knights fan, I recently picked up Warden of the Blade. I'm having a tough time getting into the book, though, because there are two gaping, related plot holes.

The book is about how the Blade of Antwyr is such a powerful demonic relic that only the strongest Purifier can be close to it without having to dedicate all his mental strength to resisting it. However, the Blade's comments are the kind of things said by a kid on a playground. I find it hard to believe that anyone would be tempted by the thing; it's just childish and silly! If I can tune out my 4-year old niece when she starts on a ramble, I would think super soldiers specifically trained in mental discipline would find no challenge doing the same.

Second, I can't figure out why the Blade has to actually have a carrier. The book specifically says having sufficient distance (a few yards, it seems) is enough to keep the Blade from affecting a GK. The Purifiers have the Chambers of Purity, where demonic relics are already kept. Why not put the Blade in a blessed box and shove it in the depth of the Chambers? It isn't like a demonic hoard is going to be able to break into Titan and steal it! And the Blade can't move itself, so it can't just walk off. The Castellan of the Purifiers is tasked to write down what the Blade says, but this has been going on for thousands of years, with bookshelves full of what the Blade has said. No one else studies the books, so even if there was useful information, no one would ever find it.

Am I missing something important here? Is there more to the Blade that actually makes it an important plot point, rather than "it is because we say it is?"

[lord_khaine]

Should all be fixed now.

Looks cool. Is of course missing a Blood Raven to stborrow exotic wargear, but you cant have everything. Looking forward to see this painted.

[Adrastos42]

Being a Gray Knights fan, I recently picked up Warden of the Blade. I'm having a tough time getting into the book, though, because there are two gaping, related plot holes.

The book is about how the Blade of Antwyr is such a powerful demonic relic that only the strongest Purifier can be close to it without having to dedicate all his mental strength to resisting it. However, the Blade's comments are the kind of things said by a kid on a playground. I find it hard to believe that anyone would be tempted by the thing; it's just childish and silly! If I can tune out my 4-year old niece when she starts on a ramble, I would think super soldiers specifically trained in mental discipline would find no challenge doing the same.

Second, I can't figure out why the Blade has to actually have a carrier. The book specifically says having sufficient distance (a few yards, it seems) is enough to keep the Blade from affecting a GK. The Purifiers have the Chambers of Purity, where demonic relics are already kept. Why not put the Blade in a blessed box and shove it in the depth of the Chambers? It isn't like a demonic hoard is going to be able to break into Titan and steal it! And the Blade can't move itself, so it can't just walk off. The Castellan of the Purifiers is tasked to write down what the Blade says, but this has been going on for thousands of years, with bookshelves full of what the Blade has said. No one else studies the books, so even if there was useful information, no one would ever find it.

Am I missing something important here? Is there more to the Blade that actually makes it an important plot point, rather than "it is because we say it is?"

I haven't read the book, but it you'll permit some wild speculation:

Perhaps the blade's lack of persuasiveness is because of it's weilder? As in, childish comments is all it can manage to get through Crowe's iron will and unmatched mental barriers, or something. Either that, or after years of failing to corrupt this one guy, it's pretty much given up?

No idea on your second point, unless it's dangerous to have it in proximity to other daemon artifacts or something?

[lord_khaine]

I haven't read the book, but it you'll permit some wild speculation:


I really find the idea that at this point the demon blade has more or less given up, and are now just mouthing off in spite :smalltongue:

Does not really make sense that they has not just chucked the sword into a fitting warded container though. Not unless it has some sort of teleporting ability that can only be engaged when its not carried.
Would actually be kinda fitting though, the ability to turn up unexpectedly where it could be found by a new wielder.

[Grim Portent]

I think the idea behind Crowe's daemon blade was that it's sufficiently 'EVIL' that it would corrupt anyone guarding it if kept in a box or warded room, and it would draw champions of chaos to come wield it. The only person in the entire Grey Knights chapter who's able to resist it is Crowe himself, even other Purifiers wouldn't be able to resist long.

It's not the best written concept, but then it was only written so the Imperium could have the 'valiant hero wields weapon of evil to contain it's power' tropes ticked by someone other than an Inquisitor.

[DaedalusMkV]

Am I missing something important here? Is there more to the Blade that actually makes it an important plot point, rather than "it is because we say it is?"

The first time the Grey Knights encountered the Blade of Antwyr, it teleported itself halfway across the galaxy in the time between the sword's wielder getting killed and the Grey Knights going to pick the thing up and put it in a box. They were worried that if they just locked it up somewhere, it either wouldn't be there anymore when they came back or would just lead an endless string of Chaos Champions to their secret fortress in an effort to get a new wielder even if they did somehow stop it from just escaping from its box. They gave it to the Purifiers because they literally couldn't think of a halfway safe way to store the thing; it needed to be constantly guarded lest it disappear again, but putting guards in the room with it meant exposing them to its corrupting influence. So they gave it to someone who they figured was as close to incorruptible as possible and said "Never put this thing down, and don't listen to a word it says".

And hey, it's worked out pretty well for them so far, so I'd say it's a job well done.

[Adrastos42]

I see, if it has the power to disappear if unattended then things make a lot more sense.

[Boci]

So Space Marines need to be recruited from a young age, but the Space Wolves recruit only the best Fenrisian fighters, who are presumably older than the recruits of other chapters. Is this ever explained? Are the Space Wolves just ignoring a tradition with little practical use, or is this an option available only to them? Does the mutation in their geneseed allow them to recruit older humans?