Knight of the Weave build

[Ethernil]

Although i know that half casters are subpar classes i want to make a build using knight of the weave as a gish preferably on a paladin bases for more charisma synergy. I know that paladin 2 sorcerer 4 abjurant champion etc is better but it is not what i want. Please offer suggestions.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you enter KotW after level 5, you get spell levels 1/2/3/4/5/6 at character levels 6/8/10/11/12/13. Spellfire (Healing) and Spellfire (Blasting) are laughably inefficient. Fast Metamagic lets you burn through your spell slots twice as fast for no particular benefit, and it comes online at level 9 so Rapid Metamagic outclasses it in every way. Detect and Read Magic at will is cute, but those are cantrips. That leaves Armored Caster as the only good class feature. Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer X, possibly with a Spellsword dip to shore up the Fortitude save, is a better option in pretty much every case.

That being said, Paladin 5 into KotW would probably work fine in low- or mid-op games. Just don't waste spell slots on Spellfire or Fast Metamagic.

[Fizban]

Personally I'm more annoyed by the absurdly short spell list. Even with bad class features, 6th level spells are 6th level spells, right? Not here they aren't. You're an "arcane paladin" of sorts, so naturally they give you cure spells-delayed a level because you're an arcanist not a cleric you cheesy powergamer. And that's a lot of what you get: delayed cures, restorations, dispel magic and spell resistance with bad caster levels, a few decent buffs/utilities (including your one undercosted spell, Forceward at 3rd), and oh yeah you've got tiny spells known so half of them matter even less. None of these are particularly unique, in fact most of them are things people just buy magic items for, at a rather low cost.

Compare to Suel Archanamach, the most similar class I'm aware of. It gets the same 3/4 BAB shaft and limited spells known, but he gets to choose from all abjuration, divination, illusion, and transmutation spells, and the class gives a flat +6 to it's dispel checks/dispel resistance to make up for the 6th level entry (though as with almost every 10 level PrC it fails to account for what happens after). I expect most people look at that 6th level spellcasting table with a BAB entry and assume it'll be the same sweet deal, a bard-tier gish-in-a-can, but instead you find a teeny tiny class spell list.

It's easy enough to fix the Knight of the Weave. Change Fast Metamagic to a Quicken Spell effect, give them the absorbing spellfire ability and/or fix the entire spellfire "system" so it's not garbage, and either full BAB, a fat caster level bonus, or both. And drop the feeble pretense that a full caster would ever take the class which lets you pretend they have full caster level by stacking, because no full caster is taking this class. Once the base is usable the limited spell access isn't quite so bad, all those spells are things you do want to have after all, they're just not enough to justify having no offensive ability aside from reduced BAB.

[Name1]

I think that Knight of the Weave is one of those classes where it's just not worth it to take all levels. I'd say take it until level 3, snatch Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster to cast level 3 spells with it and take a level in Virtuoso to qualify for Sublime Chord and stack Sublime Chord casting on top of Knight of the Weave casting to get a high CL.

...Yeah, Knight of the Weave isn't the best class.
If your DM is in a good mood, you can ask him if he'd allow the raised Red Wizard CLs to apply to everything, take a lot of different arcane casting classes and Reserves of Strenght and play a Blaster. Of course, even with that you'd not be going full Kight of the Weave.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Chameleon is also a better option for half-casting on a PrC.

That said, let's look at KotW. You'll be wanting an arcane caster level before entering, and some charisma synergy. So how about an illumian paladin 2/duskblade 3/KotW 4, picking Krau as one of your sigils, and taking Practiced Spellcaster for both duskblade and KotW? You're burning two feats, which sucks, and you're wrangling a bit with 'most beneficial order of application', but you can get a nice high caster level. Your duskblade CL is 3 (+ 4 + 2, up to HD), and your KotW caster level is 4 + duskblade (+2 +4, up to HD). If you can apply Krau and PS before duskblade, that gives you CL [level + 9] up to level 15, and CL 25 after that (assuming no futher improvement).

Yes, your class features are mostly worthless, and you'll absolutely want to switch over to Abjurant Champion after one to four* levels - you automatically qualify, thanks to your duskblade levels. You'll also want to dip/take something to expand your spell list, such as Sand Shaper, initiate feats etc., and/or something that advances your casting beyond 6ths, which is going to be Sublime Chord, pretty much.


*You don't lose additional base attack for taking KotW 2-3-4, though if you're using fractional base attack, there are superior dips.

[Grim Reader]

Personally I'm more annoyed by the absurdly short spell list. Even with bad class features, 6th level spells are 6th level spells, right? Not here they aren't. You're an "arcane paladin" of sorts, so naturally they give you cure spells-delayed a level because you're an arcanist not a cleric you cheesy powergamer. And that's a lot of what you get: delayed cures, restorations, dispel magic and spell resistance with bad caster levels, a few decent buffs/utilities (including your one undercosted spell, Forceward at 3rd), and oh yeah you've got tiny spells known so half of them matter even less. None of these are particularly unique, in fact most of them are things people just buy magic items for, at a rather low cost.

Sand Shaper is your friend. With benefits. Mage of the Arcane Order might be sweet-talked into slipping you benefits too.

[Fizban]

How many prerequisites, prestige class dips, and further delayed caster levels to improve one sad spell list? It technically works but I feel like relying on Sand Shaper as the band-aid for every class with bad spells just because it's the only class that can fix it is blah.

Good point about Duskblade and Abjurant Champion though, as much as I hate the cheeselord and prestige->prestige casting progression, that is a simple way around it, and while I was thinking about Hexblade I forgot that Duskblade ate all it's niches. The KotW prerequisites are basically nothing, so you can load up the prerequisites for your actual target PrC and just dip one or two levels to start the casting. And once you've traded up for some decent class features the spell list is fine.

[Grim Reader]

How many prerequisites, prestige class dips, and further delayed caster levels to improve one sad spell list? It technically works but I feel like relying on Sand Shaper as the band-aid for every class with bad spells just because it's the only class that can fix it is blah.

Good point about Duskblade and Abjurant Champion though, as much as I hate the cheeselord and prestige->prestige casting progression, that is a simple way around it, and while I was thinking about Hexblade I forgot that Duskblade ate all it's niches. The KotW prerequisites are basically nothing, so you can load up the prerequisites for your actual target PrC and just dip one or two levels to start the casting. And once you've traded up for some decent class features the spell list is fine.

I feel Sand Shaper is a peculiarly good fit for KotW though. The Desert Insight list is front-loaded with a lot of good spells at the lower levels, some even at lower levels than on the Sorc/Wiz list. The higher levels get more and more... desiccated.

Also, four levels of Mage of the Arcane Order costs you 2 BaB, but puts all core Sorc/Wiz spells in reach. Without casting loss. Full-BaB class 5/KotW 1/Abjurant Champion 5/MotAO 4 lets you cast all the spells at level 15.

[ShurikVch]

Personally I'm more annoyed by the absurdly short spell list.Isn't it a supplemental list?

I don't see RAW which says something like "Knights of the Weave casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the Knights of the Weave spell list on page 112."

Instead, it says:
Knights of the Weave cast arcane spells like a sorcererAnd sorcerer
casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Isn't it a supplemental list?

I don't see RAW which says something like "Knights of the Weave casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the Knights of the Weave spell list on page 112."

Instead, it says:And sorcerer
It says, under "Knight of the Weave Spell List": "Knights of the Weave choose their spells from the following list". That's pretty definitive.

[Ethernil]

I was wondering, if you get the Mystra paladin acf, you get to cast arcane spells through your paladin slots. You need a spellbook but i believe that can be addressed with getting magical training as a first level feat(regional faerun) which gives you a spellbook with some cantrips. So does that count as other classes that grant arcane spell casting for knight of the weave? If yes, that means that paladin 10 KoTW 10 has caster level 20 for the prc without any hodgey podgey stuff. Though that makes you kinda mad...

[ShurikVch]

It says, under "Knight of the Weave Spell List": "Knights of the Weave choose their spells from the following list". That's pretty definitive.No, not exactly

Let's compare it to Master of Shrouds:
Master of Shrouds Spell List
Masters of shrouds choose their divine spells from the following list:
1st - disrupt undead, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement.
2nd - ghoul touch, scare, spectral hand.
3rd - contagion, gentle repose, halt undead, vampiric touch.
4th - enervation, fear.
5th - magic jar.Is it pretty definitive too?
Except Master of Shrouds don't have a separate casting; it progressing casting whatever class you have before
So what, should Cleric/Master of Shrouds be restricted to that tiny spell list?

[Ethernil]

No, not exactly

Let's compare it to Master of Shrouds:Is it pretty definitive too?
Except Master of Shrouds don't have a separate casting; it progressing casting whatever class you have before
So what, should Cleric/Master of Shrouds be restricted to that tiny spell list?

Because magic of fareun was one of the early books of 3d eddition and they thought that giving good arcane spellcasting in heavy armor would be overpowered.

[ShurikVch]

Because magic of fareun was one of the early books of 3d eddition and they thought that giving good arcane spellcasting in heavy armor would be overpowered.Except the Knight of the Weave wasn't printed in the Magic of Faerûn at 2001, but in the Champions of Valor at 2005 - well into 3.5 era

[ExLibrisMortis]

No, not exactly

Let's compare it to Master of Shrouds:Is it pretty definitive too?
Except Master of Shrouds don't have a separate casting; it progressing casting whatever class you have before
So what, should Cleric/Master of Shrouds be restricted to that tiny spell list?
Umm, what Master of Shrouds is this? The Libris Mortis version has no such text.

A class with that text would be pretty definitive, too, so yes, it would be restricted to that tiny spell list.

[ShurikVch]

Umm, what Master of Shrouds is this? The Libris Mortis version has no such text.It's in the Defenders of the Faith: A Guidebook to Clerics and Paladins
A class with that text would be pretty definitive, too, so yes, it would be restricted to that tiny spell list.There are two major issues with such ruling:
1. PrC have a domain as prerequisite (Death, Evil, or Protection); none of the spells included in the spell list; do you mean Master of Shrouds would also lose all of the domain's spells?
2. What's about the spells above the 5th level? :smallconfused:

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's in the Defenders of the Faith: A Guidebook to Clerics and Paladins

There are two major issues with such ruling:
1. PrC have a domain as prerequisite (Death, Evil, or Protection); none of the spells included in the spell list; do you mean Master of Shrouds would also lose all of the domain's spells?
2. What's about the spells above the 5th level? :smallconfused:
Well, that explains why I couldn't find it.

First of all, it's a 3.0 class, and it was updated to 3.5, removing the problem.

Second, the class is clearly dysfunctional by 3.0 rules, as you have identified - they have an ability ('Spells') which clearly says they have access to the cleric list, and another paragraph of the class description says that they have access to the small, useless list. The problem is not that the small list isn't definitive - the problem is that there is a contradiction.

In short, the Master of Shrouds provides no reasons to believe the Knight of the Weave has access to the general sorcerer/wizard list.

[Name1]

I was wondering, if you get the Mystra paladin acf, you get to cast arcane spells through your paladin slots. You need a spellbook but i believe that can be addressed with getting magical training as a first level feat(regional faerun) which gives you a spellbook with some cantrips. So does that count as other classes that grant arcane spell casting for knight of the weave? If yes, that means that paladin 10 KoTW 10 has caster level 20 for the prc without any hodgey podgey stuff. Though that makes you kinda mad...

Don't you still only get 1 CL every two levels as a Paladin?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Don't you still only get 1 CL every two levels as a Paladin?
Yes, but with some extra.

I think Ethernil confused the Sword of the Arcane Order feat with the Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels. SotAO does allow you to cast wizard spells from your paladin/ranger slots, MFK does not. MFK does, however, add a bunch of spell slots, and gives you +2 CL, plus the ability to add arcane caster levels (from other classes) to your paladin CL.

A paladin 10/knight of the weave 10, with SotAO and MFK substitution levels, would have the following casting (no bonus spells or CL boosters):



spells
level 0/1/2 etc.
CL
list


paladin
-/2/2
17
paladin, wizard


KotW
-/4/4/4/3/3/3
10
KotW



However, if you rule that paladin counts as arcane caster class for the purpose of KotW's caster level, you get an order-of-application problem, because your caster levels are [paladin CL = 7 + KotW CL] and [KotW CL = 10 + paladin CL], respectively. Assuming you can apply each bonus only once, you can calculate in two orders: final paladin CL first, or final KotW CL first. Paladin-first gets you CL 17 for the paladin, and then CL 27 for the KotW. The reverse gets you CL 27 for the paladin, and CL 17 for the KotW.

As always, Practiced Spellcaster can provide some neat boosts here, as well, as can the Illumian krau sigil - the ability to use strength for bonus spells may be appealing, too, so Aeshkrau is golden.


I think that the paladin casting is so weak, that it's not worth getting. Paladin 2/duskblade 3/abjurant champion 5 would be preferable, and would stack with KotW CL more straightforwardly.

[Ethernil]

Yes I confused the feat with the acf, thanks.
I don't really care about paladin casting, and even with all the mystra stuff you end up needing intelligence on top of all the rest. What I want is the full bab and turn undead for devotion feats along with the charisma synergy.
I also considered a 1-2 level dip into marshal for the auras but it is hard finding a class that casts arcane spells to boost kotw caster level. Maybe just illumian with the practiced spell caster feat do cl 16, or use abjurant champion to advance kotw and get bab to caster level.

[Name1]

Yes I confused the feat with the acf, thanks.
I don't really care about paladin casting, and even with all the mystra stuff you end up needing intelligence on top of all the rest. What I want is the full bab and turn undead for devotion feats along with the charisma synergy.
I also considered a 1-2 level dip into marshal for the auras but it is hard finding a class that casts arcane spells to boost kotw caster level. Maybe just illumian with the practiced spell caster feat do cl 16, or use abjurant champion to advance kotw and get bab to caster level.

...Is full BAB that important? I mean, it's nice and all, but it's not that different compared to a DMM Persisted Divine Power...

[Ethernil]

...Is full BAB that important? I mean, it's nice and all, but it's not that different compared to a DMM Persisted Divine Power...

I don't want to play a cleric, I want a charisma based diplomacy using arcane caster in heavy armor.

[One Step Two]

I don't want to play a cleric, I want a charisma based diplomacy using arcane caster in heavy armor.

Fun fact, did you know I simply adore paladins, especially when fusing them with other stuff? But enough about me!

Alright, so here's this as an option, consider: High One Warrior Wizard acf found in the Champions of Valor web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). It adds diplomacy to your skill list, lets your wizard and paladin levels stack for smite evil, ignores 20% arcane spell failure in armor, and lets your Special Paladin mount also count as your familiar, gaining benefits of both being your Special mount and familiar.

You build can be: Paladin 5/ High One Warrior Wizard 5/ Abjurant Champion 5, and sprinkle whatever you like on the end. The feat Sword of the Arcane order is a must for your caster level.
If you grab another full caster level PRC, you can reach upto 8th level spells. A single level dip of Spellsword for a further 10% reduction of Arcane spell failure should stack with High One Warrior Wizard, check with your DM.

Optional feats you can add if you're allowed some alternate sources:
Theurgic Mount: from Dragon Magazine 325, your paladin and arcane caster levels stack for your Mount bonuses
Academic Priest: From Legends of the Twins sourcebook (3rd party), which lets your intelligence be used as your divine casting stat to reduce MAD
Drakkensteed Mount: Dragon magic: Because who doesn't want a dragon horse? Also, remember you're allowed unique mounts depending on your level, check the DMG page 204 for ideas.

I hope this gives your some inspiration

[Ethernil]

Alright, so here's this as an option, consider: High One Warrior Wizard acf found in the Champions of Valor web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). It adds diplomacy to your skill list, lets your wizard and paladin levels stack for smite evil, ignores 20% arcane spell failure in armor, and lets your Special Paladin mount also count as your familiar, gaining benefits of both being your Special mount and familiar.

You build can be: Paladin 5/ High One Warrior Wizard 5/ Abjurant Champion 5, and sprinkle whatever you like on the end. The feat Sword of the Arcane order is a must for your caster level.
If you grab another full caster level PRC, you can reach upto 8th level spells. A single level dip of Spellsword for a further 10% reduction of Arcane spell failure should stack with High One Warrior Wizard, check with your DM.

That is kind of nice, but contradicts with itself. 5th level paladin mount will be weak in higher levels, so will be the wizard familiar as you re probably going to use prestige classes rather than standard wizard. Also the heavy investment in wizard means that you are going to need a high intelligence score, in addition to some charisma and wisdom for paladin, along with strength and constitution for being melee. That wizard acf mostly fits a wizard heavy build like paladin 2, High one warrior wizard 4 and then the usual paladin gish prcs (1 level of Spellsword, 5 of abjurant champion and possibly toping it off with sacred exorcist or something. Although i must admit it gets you arcane casting in heavy armor. You just aren't much of a paladin though.

[Fizban]

If you want a paladin mount on a wizard, there's a class for that. Waterdeep has the Knight of the Blue Moon, a 5 level PrC meant for sorcerer/paladins or sorcerer/clerics which gives you paladin mount at sorcerert+paladin+PrC level. Doesn't combine with Knight of the Weave though, since the mount feature specifically says sorcerer and wizard. Unless you can get the DM to count it by context and use Arcane Familiar off your KotW casting.

[Ethernil]

Chameleon is also a better option for half-casting on a PrC.

That said, let's look at KotW. You'll be wanting an arcane caster level before entering, and some charisma synergy. So how about an illumian paladin 2/duskblade 3/KotW 4, picking Krau as one of your sigils, and taking Practiced Spellcaster for both duskblade and KotW? You're burning two feats, which sucks, and you're wrangling a bit with 'most beneficial order of application', but you can get a nice high caster level. Your duskblade CL is 3 (+ 4 + 2, up to HD), and your KotW caster level is 4 + duskblade (+2 +4, up to HD). If you can apply Krau and PS before duskblade, that gives you CL [level + 9] up to level 15, and CL 25 after that (assuming no futher improvement).

Yes, your class features are mostly worthless, and you'll absolutely want to switch over to Abjurant Champion after one to four* levels - you automatically qualify, thanks to your duskblade levels. You'll also want to dip/take something to expand your spell list, such as Sand Shaper, initiate feats etc., and/or something that advances your casting beyond 6ths, which is going to be Sublime Chord, pretty much.


*You don't lose additional base attack for taking KotW 2-3-4, though if you're using fractional base attack, there are superior dips.

I would like to keep KotW lvl 8 ability, casting arcane spells in medium armor, to boost that to heavy armor with the battle caster feat. As written in the prc you ignore ASF for all arcane casting not just kotw. And i really dig charisma synergy, would hexblade work somehow instead of duskblade? Though it must be the weakest prc casting wise ever printed. I would consider chameleon 5, but that specifically states that you cannot use your aptitude (in our case arcane) be used to qualify for feats prestige classes etc.

The whole idea seems more and more like a lost cause. Charisma synergistic paladin build would work much easier with a build like: paladin 5-pious templar 2-divine crusader 1-fist of raziel 10-full bab class with turn undead ability 2.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would like to keep KotW lvl 8 ability, casting arcane spells in medium armor, to boost that to heavy armor with the battle caster feat. As written in the prc you ignore ASF for all arcane casting not just kotw. And i really dig charisma synergy, would hexblade work somehow instead of duskblade? Though it must be the weakest prc casting wise ever printed. I would consider chameleon 5, but that specifically states that you cannot use your aptitude (in our case arcane) be used to qualify for feats prestige classes etc.

The whole idea seems more and more like a lost cause. Charisma synergistic paladin build would work much easier with a build like: paladin 5-pious templar 2-divine crusader 1-fist of raziel 10-full bab class with turn undead ability 2.
Well, KotW 8 is your next break point, bab-wise. You lose an extra point, but you save fifteen or so thousand gp on mithral armour (or whatever a pearl of power for greater luminous armour costs). Paladin 2/duskblade 3/KotW 8 is perfectly usable.

Hexblade can be used over duskblade, but you lose channeling, and a whole bunch of caster levels (at least two, up to nine*). Your saves do become practically unbeatable (versus spells), and you can try something like paladin 2/hexblade 2/crusader 1 for a strong start, but I wouldn't recommend it.

In any case, I don't think the build is lost, but you'll need some tricks to expand that spell list. Maybe you can use a runestaff or two?


*Hexblade 2/dip one (say, crusader), for Arcane Resistance, offers no caster level, costing you 3 CL, compared to duskblade 3.
Hexblade 3, for Mettle, offers no caster level, costing you 3 CL, compared to duskblade 3.
Hexblade 4 does offer a caster level, but it's only half your hexblade level, so it's two lower than duskblade 3/KotW 1.
If you take hexblade 2 or 3, you won't be able to use your Krau sigil or a second Practiced Spellcaster to apply to your caster level, so that could cost you another 6 CL.

[Exocist]

Sounds like a the Runesmith (https://dndtools.net/classes/runesmith/) prestige class might be what you're looking for. You need to be a Dwarf, though.

It lets you scribe spells on your armor, then cast them without Somatic Components (thus ignoring ASF). Also fits with the theme of your character as well.

Don't try that much with KotW, I haven't seen it used for anything aside from Master Spellthief caster level shenanigans.

[Ethernil]

The build ended up as paladin 5, knight of the weave 10, dragon devotee 5. Illumian for the +2 caster level ending up with a sorcerer caster level of 4 and knight of the weave 20 with practiced spellcaster.