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Gwenfloor
2007-07-10, 08:25 PM
I have been playing at high levels in D&D campaigns, and I noticed that the spell casters all but overshadow the non-casters. The players of the non-casters say that they are still having fun, but all the things the magic PCs did with their magic: used mass-production rings of sustenance and amulets of health to give every single member of their town so that nobody will have to worry about plagues and famine again, using spells per day to create matter out of nothing, such as Walls of Iron to sell, destabilizing the economy and selling to others in order to get in more gold pieces to make more magic, which will so dramatically alter the fundamentals of the pseudo-feudal system that is prevalent in my campaign (which is Greyhawk, by the way), that it is not even close to being at any sensible technological level. It is like a "Flintstones" effect; magic carpets and broomsticks of flying acting as air transportation, Stone Shape to build structures from the ground up, and the player with Leadership got all Adepts as his followers. He kept arguing when I said that only Commoners, Experts, and Warriors were allowed, saying that the Adepts and Aristocrats were treated as being level-2, from the Epic Level Handbook. He insisted that this was allowed for non-epic characters as well. But Leadership and Adepts are the least of my worries; the permanent duration on several spells that create something from nothing, such as wall of iron, cause spell casters to become so powerful that if I get some new players into the game, jealousy would be understandable.

In short, spell casters can do so much more than non-casters, with their ability to manipulate reality, that I am considering finding an alternate system for magic or just switching to Iron Heroes when I finish my current campaign.

Can anybody help me?

SithLackey
2007-07-10, 08:53 PM
Try enforcing trade laws inmajor cities (the ones where they would have to sell this stuff) so that the profit is minimalized. Or, you could even increase the amout of XP required to make each subsequent copy of the same item, or for each casting of Permanency. I realize that this is neither likely to please your players or solve the problem long term, but it should at least throw them off the industrial bent long enough for you to come up with a more permanent solution.

If the players solve too many people's problems with magic items, you could also have people traveling from far and wide to benefit from the party's benevolent leadership. That should make them realize it's not worth the effort.

As for the Leadership problem, you are the boss. Always remember that any problem can be solved by your will. Your game your rules. Period.

psychoticbarber
2007-07-10, 08:54 PM
Tome of Battle might be a place to start, but really the problems go right to the root of the differences between the classes.

Fightery types hit things with sharp metal sticks (some of them even do it really, well).
Casters affect the fabric of the universe, telling the laws of physics to, as Vaarsuvius put it, "Shut up and sit down."

There's going to be some variance no matter what you do. What you CAN do, is, like the Tome of Battle, look at the weaknesses of the core fighter classes, and try to remove some of them. Not all of them, but some of them. Because even though people will likely jump on my head for saying so, even Batman has a weakness, and that's being caught off-guard. The Fightery types, however, have half a dozen weaknesses that are much, much more significant.

Lemur
2007-07-10, 08:56 PM
Using that much magic can easily, and I'll say, should backfire in certain ways. There's no doubt that it's quite potent, but using magic as a shortcut to solve everyday issues like feeding people and making money is risky business. The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.

The main thing that catches my eye is giving rings of sustenence and amulets of health to a whole town of people. If anything screams "unbalancing the natural order" this is it. Realistically, if you knew you didn't have to worry about eating or getting sick anymore, how would that affect you, and your outlook on life? Chances are that most people will be much less inclined to do work. They'll get lazy and too content for their own good, so when a real hardship strikes, they'll be in even more trouble.

A certain likely hardship would be what happens when others find out about the town and it's incredible health plan. One problem is that a lot of new people will want to move in, which would either create problems between "haves" and "have nots" or force the PCs to invest more resources to supplying the increasing population. Crime would also be on the rise. In fact, it's not unreasonable to imagine the town being raided while the PCs aren't around, seeing as each citizen is wearing a substantial amount of wealth on their person.

Now, I'm not saying that all uses of magic should inherently punish the user (although there's also nothing wrong such a setting, so long as it's established beforehand that magic works that way) but using it frivolously to break the economy and whatnot is sure to have repurcussions. So part of this isn't just the power of casters, but the DM letting the players get away with too much. Remember, the rules as written are just the foundation, not the entire structure of the game.

Also, if you're worried about class balance issues, looking into the Tome of Battle might be useful for characters interested in melee combat. I'm sure that someone's already ninja'd me in saying this by now, though.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-07-10, 08:59 PM
Also, remember that each peasant in their home town now has about 10,000 gp worth of magic items on them. Ten thousand gold. How tempting would it be to rob/kill your Commoner 1 neighbor and sell their loot for 5000 gold? They should, at the very least, be marked for theft by every get-rich-quick thief within 500 miles.

Callix
2007-07-10, 09:06 PM
Basic flaw of D&D. They balanced casters as blasters, then in 3ed they decided to stop railroading classes and gave everyone some options. So they added a few cool non-blasty things they could do, and didn't really try to break them in playtesting. So Batman is totally broken.

Flaw #2 of D&D: Spells are balanced for combat. Wall of Iron is slightly less poweful than Wall of Force in a combat situation. It allows for permanent sealing up of areas, but is not impenetrable. However, the system was not balanced for the sale of the iron. Similarly for item creation. Intended as a cool flavour thing, not an industry. So the rules, when well applied, allow casters to do nearly anything.

Unfortunately, this is a problem of the system, and requires major work to fix. If the players are already doing it, then it's too late to fix it easily. If you have leadership abuse and wall of iron depressions, chuck a war at them. Make those adept followers have to fight an army of golems. Build up creatures that are magic-resistant but not physically tough. Pit them against a magocentric nation, and watch the players scrabble to overcome the threat. Don't kill them all, but show them that magic is not always the answer. Chuck a negation abjurer at the party wizard, and let the fighter cut him down mid-duel. Stuff like that.

Roog
2007-07-10, 09:07 PM
The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.

Wall of Iron in an instantaneous spell, so it can't be dispelled.

Matthew
2007-07-10, 09:09 PM
Look for consequences, both in the Material Plane and the Extra Planar. Why aren't High Level NPCs doing the same thing? Why isn't Greyhawk a land filled with Golem armies and other such beasties? High Level PCs handing out magic stuff to peasants and building out of dispellable materials are asking for trouble, both from the legitimate authorities and from evil aligned power groups.

However, there isn't really a lot that you can do (though you have clearly lost control of a campaign when a Player is dictating what kind of followers he has to you) at high level play that won't break campaigns. Once you get past Level 10 or so, things can become very difficult to manage outside of heavily fleshed out worlds like The Forgotten Realms.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-10, 09:10 PM
The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.
The spell is instantaneous, so no it can not. It's easiest to just rule that as a raw material iron is worth bupkis.

Callix
2007-07-10, 09:24 PM
Be careful with golem armies. While golems are very annoying to casters, they are even more annoying to melee. They grapple. They are enormous, and have a proportional grapple modifier. They are immune to nonlethal damage (which is all the barbarian can do with a grapple check). They have DR/Adamantine, so unless the barb invested in an adamantine shortsword or dagger, they can't do squat, since they can't power attack. The mage, on the other hand, needs to remeber to chuck a no-SR attack spell which affects objects if it needs a fort save, or roll Knowledge (arcana) and hit it with its vulnerability spells.

Gwenfloor
2007-07-10, 09:47 PM
Using that much magic can easily, and I'll say, should backfire in certain ways. There's no doubt that it's quite potent, but using magic as a shortcut to solve everyday issues like feeding people and making money is risky business. The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.

The main thing that catches my eye is giving rings of sustenence and amulets of health to a whole town of people. If anything screams "unbalancing the natural order" this is it. Realistically, if you knew you didn't have to worry about eating or getting sick anymore, how would that affect you, and your outlook on life? Chances are that most people will be much less inclined to do work. They'll get lazy and too content for their own good, so when a real hardship strikes, they'll be in even more trouble.

A certain likely hardship would be what happens when others find out about the town and it's incredible health plan. One problem is that a lot of new people will want to move in, which would either create problems between "haves" and "have nots" or force the PCs to invest more resources to supplying the increasing population. Crime would also be on the rise. In fact, it's not unreasonable to imagine the town being raided while the PCs aren't around, seeing as each citizen is wearing a substantial amount of wealth on their person.

Now, I'm not saying that all uses of magic should inherently punish the user (although there's also nothing wrong such a setting, so long as it's established beforehand that magic works that way) but using it frivolously to break the economy and whatnot is sure to have repurcussions. So part of this isn't just the power of casters, but the DM letting the players get away with too much. Remember, the rules as written are just the foundation, not the entire structure of the game.

Also, if you're worried about class balance issues, looking into the Tome of Battle might be useful for characters interested in melee combat. I'm sure that someone's already ninja'd me in saying this by now, though.

They're using automations to do all the work. Oh, and the more people come to see the lord's "benevolence," with 24 hours, the spell casters can regain their spells.

It is at the end of the Shackled City Adventure Path, and the Scarlet Brotherhood to east has been ravaged by a magic plague that resists all magical cures. The refugees, commoners, and much of their work force migrated to the PCs country, so a sizable portion of former Brotherhood civilians and peasants. So that rules out the evil Empire. Also, several of Mordenkainen's agents have found out about the Player Characters. That "spells" trouble.:smalltongue:

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-10, 09:54 PM
While I think that they should have been balanced in the first place, I would say try to introduce a little balance.

Perhaps, use of casting spells to make commodities which are then sold should be illegal. Now this doesn't stop evil or chaotic characters so much, but lawful ones are going to be hesitant about it. Not because it's "the law" so much as people realized a problem was possible and created a law because of it.

Magically created items should show sign of that they are created. And, some people would know what to look for. Not appropriate for every farmer to know those horseshoes your selling him were not made by a smith, but by a wizard... but when you show up with thousands of horseshoes they'll look for that.


And, maybe they can ALL be dispeled.

Just some thoughts.

Matthew
2007-07-10, 09:57 PM
This used to be known as Monty Haul Syndrome. You gave them too much and they're breaking your Campaign World. However, 3.x seems to support this sort of thing, so it's hard to know exactly what's going on.

Chances are, you have given them too much freedom and underestimated their capabilities.

Breaon
2007-07-10, 10:04 PM
They must have unlimited resources to be cranking out THAT many rings and amulets.

And I would send a raiding force in one night from an neighboring evil kingdom, to "abduct" some 20-30 peasants and their items, with the evil army in the wings waiting for a response.

Grrosgor
2007-07-10, 10:05 PM
Other people have made some excellent suggestions.

The key is to think "real" world.

If the PC's are doing this what's going through the heads of the rules, other powerful NPC or the common people?

You've had the excellent suggestion that the wealth of the population would be so much greater than other places that you'd get an influx of people and crime would sky rocket. Jealous neighbours might invade or local rulers may object and take action against the PCs.

The trick as the DM is to consider the repercussions of the PC's actions and ensure the world they're in behaves appropriately. It sounds like you've lost control so take the suggestions you have received so far an implement them.

Cheers
Grrosgor

BlueWizard
2007-07-10, 10:16 PM
You always need to have a balance of power that can best the PCs, whether it be gods, wizard cabalas, or even templars among a few...

horseboy
2007-07-10, 10:17 PM
So, they've put a LOT of miners out of work. They've ruined entire trade empires. Sounds like someone should be getting a visit from an entourage of dwarfs who want "discuss" the problems they've caused their kin. Never hurts to smack a TPK to let them know when they've gone too far.

clockwork warrior
2007-07-10, 10:19 PM
hmmm

well, for fun, you can have each a 5 percent chance that every permanent creation of magic is cursed by some minor minor flaw that the caster didnt notice, so now some of the rings of sustinence make you feel full, when your are actually starving and stuff

and it seems like that much magic would cause problems if its that concentrated in one place for that long. results could be things like:

dragons decide that they could really add to there hoards by sacking the town every once in a while

random living spells begin showing up wandering around aimlessly

the amount of magic in the area begins altering the land, changing animals and the wildlife

paladins from a religious order who believe that people must suffer and work as pentinence for there evilness (similar to the old school christan monks that would beat themselfs) see this as a travasty and "correct" it

endless possibilities

Gwenfloor
2007-07-10, 10:24 PM
They must have unlimited resources to be cranking out THAT many rings and amulets.
They do. Wall of Iron, hello?
Since this is such a big problem, and I do not want to have to deal with it EVERY campaign of mid-to-high level, I am considering either finding an alternate magic system or switching to Iron Heroes.
Does anybody know of any d20 magic systems that do not destabilize the economy?

Gwenfloor
2007-07-10, 10:26 PM
While I think that they should have been balanced in the first place, I would say try to introduce a little balance.

Perhaps, use of casting spells to make commodities which are then sold should be illegal. Now this doesn't stop evil or chaotic characters so much, but lawful ones are going to be hesitant about it. Not because it's "the law" so much as people realized a problem was possible and created a law because of it.

Magically created items should show sign of that they are created. And, some people would know what to look for. Not appropriate for every farmer to know those horseshoes your selling him were not made by a smith, but by a wizard... but when you show up with thousands of horseshoes they'll look for that.


And, maybe they can ALL be dispeled.

Just some thoughts.

So that will just make the peasants want them more! If Wizards can alter reality, then his/her horseshoes must be awesome!

clockwork warrior
2007-07-10, 10:30 PM
Does anybody know of any d20 magic systems that do not stabilize the economy?

i play monte cooks arcana unearthed, and so far the magic system seems better balanced. it is much more flexible, while removing and balancing actual spells

Gwenfloor
2007-07-10, 10:39 PM
Sorry, I meant "destabilize."
Is it like the "fire and forget" spellcasting system?

Tequila Sunrise
2007-07-10, 10:41 PM
Just because a spell's effect is permanent with regards to a battle, doesn't mean that it is actually 100% bona fide forever and always permanent. The idea that magic erodes over time is common in the fantasy genre. Have Mordenkainen send a letter to the PCs saying "Selling magically created iron? Tsk, tsk, I wouldn't do that if I were you." The PCs laugh the letter off and then prepare to defend themselves against the angry archmage, but find themselves besieged by an army of angry merchants and iron workers because all that magical iron has turned to dust. The next letter from Mord should be something to the effect of "I told ya so..."

clockwork warrior
2007-07-10, 10:43 PM
Sorry, I meant "destabilize."
Is it like the "fire and forget" spellcasting system?
not quit sure what you mean by that

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-10, 10:51 PM
Wall of Iron is instantaneous. It is real iron.

No angry merchants because it disappears one day.

Dhavaer
2007-07-10, 10:53 PM
paladins from a religious order who believe that people must suffer and work as pentinence for there evilness (similar to the old school christan monks that would beat themselfs) see this as a travasty and "correct" it

That doesn't sound very paladin-ish.

Lemur
2007-07-10, 11:02 PM
Wall of Iron in an instantaneous spell, so it can't be dispelled.


The spell is instantaneous, so no it can not. It's easiest to just rule that as a raw material iron is worth bupkis.


Wall of Iron is instantaneous. It is real iron.

No angry merchants because it disappears one day.

My apologies. It seems that deep in my heart, I still hold on to 2nd edition :smalltongue:

Rockphed
2007-07-10, 11:24 PM
Somebody noted that 5% of all magic items are cursed. Start dropping that on the PCs, or rather, the people the PCs are giving the items to. Also, note that something below 1% of all permanent magic items are intelligent. It is quite possible that neither of these are intentional results of creation, so start dropping Chaotic Evil Magic Items on your PCs at the hands of the unsuspecting peasants.

EDIT: Your PCs broke the unspoken rule that adventurers won't upset the economy. Now you get to ignore the unspoken rule that cursed items don't exist, and intelligent items are very rare. True, it takes tons more work to come up with the cursed items and the intelligent items, but if they get the message to tone down the use of magic, all will be well.

LotharBot
2007-07-10, 11:32 PM
Simple solution:

Tell your PC's not to do that. If they keep doing it, stop running the campaign.

The system is broken. Trying to fix it is a fool's errand. Telling your players "don't exploit it" is a perfectly valid solution, and probably the only one that works.

Oh, and you don't have to allow Leadership. Again, tell your players "don't exploit it", and if they don't listen, end the campaign.

WildArcana
2007-07-10, 11:39 PM
What do the gods think about this? :smallwink:

Grrosgor
2007-07-10, 11:59 PM
Wall of Iron is instantaneous. It is real iron.

No angry merchants because it disappears one day.

That may be true by RAW but who's to say someone isn't sabotaging the shipments some how? I like Tequila S's suggestion about the big M :smallsmile:

EDIT: oh and the 5% cursed suggestion. Although having only just 1% cursed/gone wrong would make for some interesting local population reactions!

Cheers
Grrosgor

Raum
2007-07-11, 12:00 AM
I have been playing at high levels in D&D campaigns, and I noticed that the spell casters all but overshadow the non-casters.

[snipped]

In short, spell casters can do so much more than non-casters, with their ability to manipulate reality, that I am considering finding an alternate system for magic or just switching to Iron Heroes when I finish my current campaign.

Can anybody help me?It sounds like you may have multiple differing concerns. You're noticing an imbalance between caster and non-caster PCs and an overly large impact by casters upon the world and its economy. Question is, do you want to fix both or is only one of them your main concern?

You said the non-casters are happy, so I'll attempt to address the second issue. First, are you enforcing the magic item creation time constraints? If not, do so - and keep the PCs too busy to mass produce items. If your leadership PC will all the adepts is the offender, make sure you're also enforcing the experience requirements. The adepts should run out of XP usable for items fairly quickly. Also, remember the adept followers take upkeep - housing, salaries, etc. Yes, they're followers, but they're not going to follow Jim Jones straight to the punchbowl. If they are mistreated, abused, or taken advantage of, they will leave.

As for using spells like Wall of Iron to create sale able ore, simply remember they aren't the first. If such a tactic is common, the price of iron will be so low the cleric makes more for a single casting of Cure Disease than the mage does in a week of creating walls. Even if the tactic isn't common, the price will drop fast once buyers figure out the PCs have a near endless supply.

If you still want to look at other systems, I'd recommend True20. It uses a "Wealth" stat rather than tracking gold. It'd also be a fairly easy conversion to your world.

WildArcana
2007-07-11, 12:13 AM
To further elaborate, what do the gods think of their world and their designs being messed with by a few cocky mages? Disease and hunger are intended to happen, and, well, when someone messes with that a smiting sends a powerful message to character and player.

Kizara
2007-07-11, 03:04 AM
They do. Wall of Iron, hello?
Since this is such a big problem, and I do not want to have to deal with it EVERY campaign of mid-to-high level, I am considering either finding an alternate magic system or switching to Iron Heroes.
Does anybody know of any d20 magic systems that do not destabilize the economy?

The problem here is a loophole that's been exploited by your players and you didn't stop them when you should have (the second they told you about it). If you try to think "why doesn't everyone do this?" there isn't a good reason since its a solid loophole.

Some options:

1) Ban fabricate. Don't think about it too much, just do it.

2) Say the quality of iron created by the Wall of Iron spell is not suitable for commercial use. If they want to be nit-picky about it, say its filled with too many impurities or some-such.

3) Give wall of Iron a duration. Even if it's 1 week/level, it prevents items from being made from it.


When you find a really big loophole that you can exploit in the system, you need to make a ruling that stops said exploit.

Another example:
Infinate Gating. (simply make a universal law or celestial pact that says that Solars can't or under no-circumstances will use their casting ability to Call another of their kind)

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-11, 03:39 AM
Hi Gwenfloor,

it is quite simple, actually, as with all infinite loops in the game. If it is, for instance, something like gate/infinitesolarstitans/wishes stuff, explain to the players that this does not work the way they interpret it from the rules. If it did, there would be no campaign to start with, way before the characters were born.

On the wall of iron thing: that can even be handled within your existing campaign, with a bit of effort and imagination.
In a perfect competition situation (= many npcs also doing it, even if the only imitate the pcs it has the same effect): Basically, the only thing that happens is that the price of iron drops massively. You could ban fabricate as Kizara suggested as well (since fabricate can, with appropriate ranks in craft skill, produce massive amounts of masterwork/normal iron stuff out of the walls of iron). If you do not, simply the price of the stuff that is produced by iron and fabricate also drops.
Mind you, the prices of iron and iron products (or similarly, stone, via wall of stone) do not drop to 0, since there is still some marginal cost involved in producing it (training of caster, that is spell slots, plus still the ranks for crafting it. One could even argue that the training of a caster to 9th level to cast wall of iron is more of a nuisance than have some slaves mine the iron ore out of mountains or buy it from the dwarves, but I digress).
In a cartel-like/monopoly situation the pcs will be constantly harassed or even attacked by powerful rulers who wish to have the iron and magical weapon plus item production for themselves, rather than for a foolish village. Ideas for adventures abound!

In any case, the wealth table in the DMG holds. As a DM, you should not give a hoot how the pcs get their treasure: through clever magic business ideas or through adventuring, or both. The wealth gained should still hold on average (you could allow them a bit more if they are smart, but not too much)*. Fast gained, fast lost, that is the way of adventurers...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

*This, btw, is also the reason why an idea that circulates the boards sometimes that wizards should solo dragons for money will not work in the average campaign, since they cannot exceed their wealth by level. They CAN do it (and risk more in the process, since they are alone), but the other players will simply gain their treasure in a different way.

lord_khaine
2007-07-11, 03:55 AM
i agree, letting the price of iron drop is a good start, or better yet start a trade embargo, so noone will buy the iron.

with their unlimited wealth out of the way, it should be a lot easyer to pick them down to size, with like someone else allready suggested to rob the village.

oh and the reason soloing a dragon isnt a good idea is that there is nothing that prevents the dragon from having, say 20 lvs of sorcerer or so, just because you can find it does not mean you should have a fair chance fighting it.

Elana
2007-07-11, 04:45 AM
Some things to consider.

The metal in a wall of iron might be inferior. (Not all iron is the same)

So once the smiths find out that all those created swords tend to break after a few days of use (Mind you the metal is still there) they will stop buying from those frauds who sold him that stuff in the first place.

Also for fabricate, you need the raw material,now I don't know about swords in your world, but the scimitar hanging on a wall here is made out of three different components(and three different materials, the handle contains wood and leather as well)

Intelligent items are always fu, but they tend to have the same alignment as the creator, so it should be enough to make them somewhat annoying
(A singing ring of sustenance will do that :) )

Ethdred
2007-07-11, 04:51 AM
They're using automations to do all the work.

You're letting them use automation? How the heck is that in the rules? If they are making magic items (and it sounds like they have cranked out thousands of rings and amulets) then that is taking time and XP, neither of which can be fabricated from a Wall of Iron. While I will not argue that high level casters are more powerful than non-casters (I've been reading this forum for more than two seconds) the problem here is not with the system but with the way you've let the players abuse it. Others have pointed out the economic reasons why this won't work, but basically you should put your foot down as DM - and also step up to the plate. It is your job to keep sending challenges at the players. If they prefer socio-economic challenges to fighty ones, then fine, but you have to come up with some that keeps draining their resources. Yes, they get their spells back every 24 hours, but a lot can happen in those 24 hours. You don't need to nerf the rules, you just have to keep up with the players. Yes, it's hard work but no-one said DMing was easy.

So apply the rules strictly and don't let these little so-and-so's browbeat you, and come up with the most fiendish challenges you can. A few attacks from those out of work dwarves should go well as starters. (And not just physical, big battle attacks - how is their country going to react when they find that their sources of every metal other than iron have dried up?)

Funkyodor
2007-07-11, 06:13 AM
I like the idea that Walls produced via walls of iron/ice/stone etc. are impure, and the only truely pure wall is the wall of force. Also I've always assumed that items given magical enchantments needed to be of higher quality and composed of refined materials. Making everyones magical items erode overtime due to low quality materials would be a start. Or have the populace start selling their magic and come back for free handouts, "Mine was stolen...". I did not know that Automatons not possessing the spells required, or the abilities to cast said spells could produce magic items? I'm sure they could create alot of crappy iron rings (and iron is a crappy material unless it is turned into steel), but enchanting them using magic item creation feats should be beyond them.

Elana
2007-07-11, 06:37 AM
Simple answer: automatons can't do that.
(And a simulacrum with item creating feats can't either)

To make magic items you have to use up XP. And the only way to earn XP is to be a free willed being overcoming challenges.

(Granted if you use the Book of Vile Darkness there are certain ways to get the XP from different sources, but items tainted with evil tend to get unwanted attention)

Dausuul
2007-07-11, 07:33 AM
They do. Wall of Iron, hello?
Since this is such a big problem, and I do not want to have to deal with it EVERY campaign of mid-to-high level, I am considering either finding an alternate magic system or switching to Iron Heroes.
Does anybody know of any d20 magic systems that do not destabilize the economy?

Well, I would certainly not discourage anyone from switching to an alternate magic system... but the D&D system is salvageable if you're willing to put some work into it. Mostly what you need to do is go through the spell list and ban the obnoxious spells, like fabricate. Also add a rule that any spell which creates a permanent item of value, like wall of iron, must include a material component cost equal to the value of the item created. Failing to include this component means the created item will disintegrate after 24 hours, and any merchant can identify the item as disintegrating with a DC 15 Appraise check.

More generally, let it be known among your players that you will not tolerate "infinite wealth generation" (or "infinite anything generation") strategies like this, and as soon as anyone starts implementing such a strategy, you will house-rule it away. You will of course get a lot of whining and complaining. Ignore it. Your game, your rules. Anybody who says, "But the rules say I can do this!" needs to be shown Rule Zero.

And don't forget to enforce the XP costs for magic item creation. Normally I think it's silly to use those, but it does make a good safety net in case your PCs get their hands on way too much gold somehow.

Oh, and don't allow candles of invocation. Just don't. Trust me.

Elana
2007-07-11, 07:59 AM
abricate is not nearly as overpowered as it seems on firstglance.

Sure it is a nice way to make horseshoes.

But even a simple item like a sword is made out of three components, and such need 3 fabricate spells.

So 3 fabricate spells to make an item worth 15 gp?

Why not? It's a spell of level 5. So considering minimum level it is supposed tobe worth 450gp. (That is what you would need to pay to get an NPC to cast it)

Sounds like a very nice trade to me.

(And of course you have to do the assembling by hand as it can only use one material at a t a time to make one object out of the material.)

Also it is impossible to create masterwork items out of just one material, so it's useless for those too.


(Sure your 9th level wizard can now make 35gp per week with that spell, instead of the 13 gp he could earn under normal circumstances with the same craft skill. So, wow a wizard is better than a commoner of the same level, big surprise)

zeruslord
2007-07-11, 08:23 AM
one alternative is to use some of Frank and K's variant rules on wishes and high level magic items. basically, these say that standard money can't buy anything over 15000 gp, and put a hard cap on summoned efreets giving out wishes-no item above 15000 gp. money that can be converted into high level items is gems or some sort of 'soul power'
see the Dungeonomicon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5) and the Tome of Fiends (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285370&postcount=6)

Dausuul
2007-07-11, 08:36 AM
abricate is not nearly as overpowered as it seems on firstglance.

Sure it is a nice way to make horseshoes.

But even a simple item like a sword is made out of three components, and such need 3 fabricate spells.

So 3 fabricate spells to make an item worth 15 gp?

Why not? It's a spell of level 5. So considering minimum level it is supposed tobe worth 450gp. (That is what you would need to pay to get an NPC to cast it)

Sounds like a very nice trade to me.

(And of course you have to do the assembling by hand as it can only use one material at a t a time to make one object out of the material.)

Also it is impossible to create masterwork items out of just one material, so it's useless for those too.


(Sure your 9th level wizard can now make 35gp per week with that spell, instead of the 13 gp he could earn under normal circumstances with the same craft skill. So, wow a wizard is better than a commoner of the same level, big surprise)

...or you could make the plates for a suit of full plate, which is worth 1500 gp. Moreover, since the main limitation on fabricate is the cubic footage of raw material, you can bet these players will start fabricating multiple suits of full plate joined by tiny threads of metal, so it's technically "one object."

Sure, you then have to rivet on the straps and all, but that's a tiny fraction of the expense of making a suit of plate armor.

SoulCatcher78
2007-07-11, 08:52 AM
Wall of iron, weapons/armor grade iron or just really hard grey stuff that we decided to call iron? More importantly, where are the herds of rust monsters that would be getting drawn to such a large quantity of iron?

As to the distribution of wealth (magic), it is up to you to control your players, find a reason that it wont work the way they think (personally love the above idea of the random cursed item with mass production...having to recall all the rings and amulets because a couple of your neighbors got turned into wights, priceless!). It won't matter what system you put in place, if there's a way to bend the rules, they will do so and you will be in the same situation.

Last but not least, if it's getting out of hand let them know it...not by introducing in game obstacles (althogh they can be fun to watch the PCs wriggle out of) but by telling them that DMing is becoming a drag because they keep doing what they're doing. Will they be miffed that they have to put away their shiny toy? yes, but in the long run you will all get more enjoyment out of your game.

(Now where did I put my +5 holy avenging vorpal sword of sharpness?)

Dervag
2007-07-11, 08:54 AM
Also, remember that each peasant in their home town now has about 10,000 gp worth of magic items on them. Ten thousand gold. How tempting would it be to rob/kill your Commoner 1 neighbor and sell their loot for 5000 gold? They should, at the very least, be marked for theft by every get-rich-quick thief within 500 miles.For that matter, how many commoners would be tempted to sell their 10,000 gp worth of magic items for 10,000 actual gp?

With that much money, you could bury it in the back yard and be well-off for decades. Use it to start a business and you've got enough money to feed yourself indefinitely and buy luxuries, as opposed to simply having food.


Wall of Iron is instantaneous. It is real iron.

No angry merchants because it disappears one day.Houserule?

Maybe it's like fairy gold in traditional Northern European mythology. Maybe it just rusts quickly. Maybe it is stable as a wall, in the form it was originally conjured up, but not as a thousand horseshoes.

By analogy, imagine that I try to summon a creature so that I can kill and eat it (or so that my friends can kill and eat it, or so that I can kill it and sell it for meat). So I summon my magical cow or whatever. Then the fighter kills it so we can have steak for dinner.

Surprise! It's a summoned creature, and it vanishes when it dies. So I don't get steak after all.

Now, by the strict rules, this only applies to the products of Conjuration spells of subtype Summon, such as a summoned cow, and not to the products of Conjuration spells of subtype Creation, such as a wall of iron. But it wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply the rule to walls of iron.

In which case you can create a wall of iron, and it will last a very long time (because as a wall it is just a normal wall). But once its hit points are reduced to zero by rust, or by being smashed into pieces, or by being melted down for horseshoes, the wall 'dies', and the iron that made it up vanishes just like the carcass of a summoned cow.


Now, Fabricate is more of a problem. However, all it really lets a caster do is bypass labor costs. That's a big deal, but it isn't really game breaking on its own (I think). You still have to have the materials to make fabricated objects. And your caster has to pass the appropriate Craft check to make an item that requires "a high degree of craftsmanship" (like a suit of armor).

So if your high-level wizard is a master armorsmith who can take 10 on his Craft check to make masterwork armor, then they can make a killing by selling several suits of masterwork armor a day.

But such a wizard is actually a blacksmith with magical powers. They suffer because they had to use skill points to build up their Craft score.

So we have a blacksmith with great magical powers, who can create armor very quickly up to the limit of his spells per day.

But this blacksmith can also summon angels and devils, conjure up clouds of nerve gas out of thin air, send his mind to possess another creature, and can in fact turn you into a toad. All those are fifth level spells just like Fabricate. And it's not a priori clear to me that those abilities are less of a big deal than his ability to make suits of armor out of base materials at will.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-11, 08:54 AM
Note the following:
1: Crafting costs XP and time.
2: Proxies, unless you're an artificer, can't craft for you (and then only in Eberron).
3: Having massive numbers of magic items makes your ECL rise significantly.
4: Facing no CR appropriate encounters leads to a lack of XP gain, i.e. max out level, can't craft anymore.
5: Dwarves get pissed when you undercut their jobs. Also, selling massive amount of iron drops the price, as it floods the market. No one wants to buy iron anymore.
6: Moradin gets pissed when you piss off dwarves.

EDIT: No. It's conjuration (creation). It makes the iron. It's like using true creation.

Funkyodor
2007-07-11, 09:00 AM
See, the point is that there really is no weapon/armor grade iron. Bronze is a better material because it is harder and resists corrosion better. Iron is good because it is more malleable and is the cheif component of steel. Now, selling the iron to a smelter to make steel, or having automatons to make it for you might be a way to go. But you have to think they are adventurers for a reason and not Artisans or Commoners out after the almighty copper. And then they really will have a beef with the IMUH (Insert Miners Union Here).

Elana
2007-07-11, 09:40 AM
...or you could make the plates for a suit of full plate, which is worth 1500 gp. Moreover, since the main limitation on fabricate is the cubic footage of raw material, you can bet these players will start fabricating multiple suits of full plate joined by tiny threads of metal, so it's technically "one object."

Sure, you then have to rivet on the straps and all, but that's a tiny fraction of the expense of making a suit of plate armor.

Armor made out of a single piece, is worthless crap.
(If you look at the picture for platemail in the PHB you can easily count about 60 parts for the half plate even in that tiny picture, and good armor won't be just metal, but have some leather at the joints, not to forget the padding you should wear on the inside, so you need quite a few fabricate spells)
Either you can't move in it at all, or it will break apart after a day.

Even a simple thing like a sword is made out of three components. (And so needing three fabricate spells)

if you make them out of one single piece you get an inferior product that breaks far too easily.

(Try something like half normal hardness with 1 HP where every attack you make counts as a sunder attempt with the same damage.)

Fabricate is nice to make horseshoes or other simple cheap items, but is worthless if you want to create anything actually worth the effort.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-11, 10:15 AM
So I summon my magical cow or whatever. Then the fighter kills it so we can have steak for dinner. Surprise! It's a summoned creature, and it vanishes when it dies. So I don't get steak after all.

Ah, but if you cut a leg off the cow without actually killing the poor beast, you get to eat steak provided your summon spell lasts long enough to actually bake it (which shouldn't take too long, just cast burning hands on it...)

:smallamused:

KoDT69
2007-07-11, 10:19 AM
They do. Wall of Iron, hello?
Since this is such a big problem, and I do not want to have to deal with it EVERY campaign of mid-to-high level, I am considering either finding an alternate magic system or switching to Iron Heroes.
Does anybody know of any d20 magic systems that do not destabilize the economy?

Unlimited iron supply has nothing to do with it. Making magic items still costs gold and XP dude.

From d20 SRD
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

After making each ring of sustenance (2500gp base) your spellcaster should be down by 1250gp and 100XP. Making enough to equip the village should still end up being 625,000gp and 50,000XP. That's more than a 2 level drop, and more gold than any kingdom should be investing in raw iron. Don't forget the XP cost, the time involved (uninterrupted time at that), and the gold available. Sure epic characters can have a million gold each, but are they really going to spend half on commoners? Every nation, high level NPC, and every sentient monster should be set on your town by now.

Easy but unpopular solution - Have an epic Archmage drop an EPIC SPELL version of DISJUNCTION on your players and the range can be the whole town since he's an NPC and you are the DM. Sure let them keep all that crappy iron, their rings and amulets are now worthless iron nuggets, the PC's are now equipped with mundane items, and if they keep all their money and resources in magic bags and containers like most will do, they will lose that too. I have been the victim of losing a bag of holding after I erroneously insisted on keeping all the group treasure in the one bag of holding. Lesson learned! Never keep your eggs in one basket. As soon as your PCs leave town, raid it with clones of them so when they return, everyone hates and fears them now. As for Leadership, I don't recall anything about Adepts being allowed, but that is NEVER the player's call, it's your call. Take back control and put them in check. Just try to come up with a way to make it fun! :smallbiggrin:

Dervag
2007-07-11, 10:36 AM
EDIT: No. It's conjuration (creation). It makes the iron. It's like using true creation.Yeah; I know. In fact I specifically acknowledged this.

What I'm saying is that I propose this as a way to close the loophole created by the Wall of Iron spell and similar spells. Make it so that objects created by a Conjuration spell of any type have one of the traits that is ordinarily only applied to objects created by a Conjuration spell of the Summoning subtype. Namely, rule that summoned objects are stable only in the form they were summoned in, and not in other forms. So you can have a wall of iron, but when you melt it down to make horseshoes it will vanish just as a summoned cow will vanish if you kill it to make steaks.

That is not part of the rules as written, and I know this very well. I'm proposing a solution here.


Armor made out of a single piece, is worthless crap.
(If you look at the picture for platemail in the PHB you can easily count about 60 parts for the half plate even in that tiny picture, and good armor won't be just metal, but have some leather at the joints, not to forget the padding you should wear on the inside, so you need quite a few fabricate spells)
Either you can't move in it at all, or it will break apart after a day.This is based on a misinterpretation of the Fabricate spell.

Fabricate can be used to create items made out of multiple parts. The spell description does not say that you have to make the item out of all one piece. So, for instance, there's no reason that you can't use Fabricate to turn a log into half a dozen planks, or a big melted blob of gold into half a dozen gold ingots. All the spell requires is that "you convert material of one sort into a product "of the same material."

Now, you could reasonably rule that it takes multiple Fabrications to make the iron part and the leather part of a suit of armor. But it would not be reasonable to rule that it takes one Fabrication to make each separate piece of the armor; this is not supported by the spell definition.

If you want to houserule that, fine. It's not a bad rule. But you should know you're doing it, because it isn't anywhere in the normal rules.


Ah, but if you cut a leg off the cow without actually killing the poor beast, you get to eat steak provided your summon spell lasts long enough to actually bake it (which shouldn't take too long, just cast burning hands on it...)

:smallamused:Now we're into detail interpretation questions.

For example: does the steak disappear with the rest of the cow? If so, you might be in for a hungry surprise. And it should; if I killed the cow by chopping it in half it's not as if one half would go and the other half would stay. So pieces of a dead summoned creature clearly disappear, as do pieces of a summoned creature that runs out of time.

If so, and if we use my proposed rule change, then you'd still have a really hard time making horseshoes out of your wall of iron, because each piece of iron you remove must reduce the hit points of the wall. Remove enough pieces and all the iron disappears. That could get irritating.

And it's not clear that parts of a summoned creature actually stick around as long as the summoned creature still exists. Maybe chopping off part of the summoned cow will lead to that part disappearing just as the whole disappears when killed; whatever part of the summoned creature is reduced to zero hit points vanishes.

Neither of those questions is really answered properly by the definition of the Summoning subtype, though the first question has an implied answer from the definition.

Elana
2007-07-11, 10:45 AM
Actually striclty by RAW there is no level drop.
If you would drop a level you are unable to spent the XP and so just can't make more items.


And for the fabricate dilemma


You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.

It says product singular.
It doesn't say you can create multiple products and magical assembly them.

taking a lumb of iron and use fabricate a blade is okay.
But a useable sword isn't just the blade.

(And if you want to argue for the assembly part, are you really saying that a armor top, armored pants, a helmet and 2 gauntlets count as 1 product?
Even if I'm liberate in the use, I see several products that make up a suit of armor)

Kurald Galain
2007-07-11, 10:47 AM
For example: does the steak disappear with the rest of the cow? If so, you might be in for a hungry surprise.

That's the most awesome part of it! It's tasty and non-fattening!

My campaign has a different conjuration spell to get fabricated items. It does so by teleporting such an item to you from within a 100 or so mile radius. The item must either be generic or previously wizard marked, so no snatching plot items. First, this by definition can't upset the economy, and second, snatch too much and the owner will hire a diviner.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-11, 11:00 AM
Yeah, I noticed you specifically stated that after editing :smallsigh: Sorry.

But that's not entirely necessary. These people are entirely abusing RAW, and ignoring the other half. Without that crafting homunculus thing, you can't have proxies craft. You pay the time, and XP. And if you have any hope of understanding economics, you know ironprices are going to plummet. Those alone, together, screw them over.

Village of 500? Amulet of health and rings of sustenance?

A: 5000x500 = 2.5 million gold in base cost.
B: That's 100,000 XP.
C: Where the **** do you get that much XP?
D: 1sp/pound of iron, so 25M pounds of iron, or 11,300 metric tons or so. (yes, that's less than what it actually is, but still)
Now, how many walls of iron is that?
7.86g/cm^3
Wall of iron, at CL 20, produces 60x60x20x5, or 360000 cubic inches, or iron. 2.54^3 is 16.387, so 5899343 cubic centimeters of iron. 46368836 grams. 46 tons. So. 200 castings, not too much.
E: Crafting for 8 hrs a day, for 5500 days, seems like a lot to me. Seem like a lot to you?

EDIT: 200 castings was an estimate. Actually, closer to 250.

psychoticbarber
2007-07-11, 11:20 AM
Village of 500? Amulet of health and rings of sustenance?

A: 5000x500 = 2.5 million gold in base cost.
B: That's 100,000 XP.
C: Where the **** do you get that much XP?
D: 1sp/pound of iron, so 25M pounds of iron, or 11,300 metric tons or so. (yes, that's less than what it actually is, but still)
Now, how many walls of iron is that?
7.86g/cm^3
Wall of iron, at CL 20, produces 60x60x20x5, or 360000 cubic inches, or iron. 2.54^3 is 16.387, so 5899343 cubic centimeters of iron. 46368836 grams. 46 tons. So. 200 castings, not too much.
E: Crafting for 8 hrs a day, for 5500 days, seems like a lot to me. Seem like a lot to you?

I'm glad somebody finally did the math I was too lazy to do myself. :smallwink:

Dervag
2007-07-11, 11:33 AM
It says product singular.
It doesn't say you can create multiple products and magical assembly them.A product (singular) can be made of multiple pieces (plural).

For instance, a chain (singular) is made of many links (plural).

The Fabricate definition does not say that the product must be made of a single piece, and I would argue that this is a bad interpretation, because it would require you to use dozens, if not hundreds, of castings of a fifth level spell to produce a chain (made of many links), or to produce a shirt (made of many threads), or to convert a few logs into a short bridge (made of many boards), or in fact to produce almost any useful product.

Dausuul
2007-07-11, 11:37 AM
Armor made out of a single piece, is worthless crap.
(If you look at the picture for platemail in the PHB you can easily count about 60 parts for the half plate even in that tiny picture, and good armor won't be just metal, but have some leather at the joints, not to forget the padding you should wear on the inside, so you need quite a few fabricate spells)
Either you can't move in it at all, or it will break apart after a day.

Hence the bit where you use tiny threads of metal to link all the pieces together, so it's "one object" as far as the spell is concerned but can be separated into suits of plate just by snipping the threads... quite similar to the way a lot of stuff is mass-produced in the real world. Limitations like "only one object" are the easiest thing in the world for the true munchkin to evade.

As for the leather and padding, how much would it cost to hire somebody to attach them? Far, far less than the cost of manufacturing the plates, I'll tell you that much.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-11, 11:43 AM
It's a sprue!
Where I learned what a sprue was called. (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20061110)

Runolfr
2007-07-11, 11:56 AM
things the magic PCs did with their magic: used mass-production rings of sustenance and amulets of health to give every single member of their town so that nobody will have to worry about plagues and famine again

Let me examine this one for a moment.

The cheapest amulet of health costs 4000 gp, meaning the creator puts in 4 days of labor (assuming someone else made the amulet), 2000 gp worth of materials, and 160 xp for each one.

The ring of sustenance costs 2500, so that's 1250 gp, 100 xp, and 2.5 days of labor for each one.

For a small town of, say, 4000 people, that would cost 13,000,000 gold pieces, 71 years of labor, and 1,040,000 experience points to provide all the citizens with a minor ring and a minor amulet.

Are you sure you're following the item creation rules?

Runolfr
2007-07-11, 12:07 PM
Wall of Iron is instantaneous. It is real iron.

No angry merchants because it disappears one day.

You are the DM. The DM may adjust the implementation of rules as needed to suit his or her campaign. If the DM says iron created by a wall of iron spell degrades over time, it does. If the DM says it can't be reforged into another shape without vanishing in a puff of logic, it can't.

The player may be a rules lawyer, but the DM is the King.

Runolfr
2007-07-11, 12:24 PM
Ah, but if you cut a leg off the cow without actually killing the poor beast, you get to eat steak provided your summon spell lasts long enough to actually bake it (which shouldn't take too long, just cast burning hands on it...)

And then the food disappears right out of your stomach at the end of the spell's duration. Bet that feels weird.

:smallwink:

Gwenfloor
2007-07-11, 01:04 PM
There are a large amount of comments, and as I would have to individually quote each one, that would take too long, and be too much double/triple/etc. posting.
I LOVE the idea of The Dungeonomicon and Tome of Fiends, plus the Wall of Iron will have a duration. Fabricate will either be upped in Spell Level, or banned. Spells that create something from nothing will have a duration, so your Create Food/Water spell will not last very long, as it takes the body quite a while to convert consumables into proper nutrients. Permanency cannot be applied to spells that create something from nothing. As for magical equipment, you can
I believe that this solves a large part of the problems, but what of permanent Constructs? Well, just restrict the amount of high-level casters.
Now, as for permanent magical equipment, you need the proper materials, so several countries may have a surplus of magic clubs, but a deficiency in magic swords.

Belteshazzar
2007-07-11, 01:55 PM
It is situations like this that influenced me to enforce a spell misfire roll in my world for all spells cast. When the spell misfired:

roll 1d20,
if 20: roll a int, wis,or cha check vs spell level +10
if roll succeeds apply metamagic of caster's choice
if 1:same as above
if roll fails apply DMs choice of wild magic effects.

This causes only the foolhardy to make a business of using higher level spells so regularly because the higher level spells were not only harder to avoid failing but had more pronounced effects. If someone tried the old iron wall technique with this they may succeed very well but they may temporarily open a portal to a demiplane of liquid steel, or summon an inevitable who only happens to look like a wall of iron till it starts levitating or unfolding.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-11, 01:59 PM
My 38 INT wizard wants to live in your world. Badly.

Whaddaya mean you're increasing the DC?! That's insane!
:smallbiggrin:

Gwenfloor
2007-07-11, 02:06 PM
My 38 INT wizard wants to live in your world. Badly.

Whaddaya mean you're increasing the DC?! That's insane!
:smallbiggrin:

I would too if I were a spell caster.

So, in Greyhawk and other "typical" standard-to-high magic campaigns, why do the Aristocrats rule without the spell casters taking over? I mean, many rulers have levels in an NPC class! Sure, you have a lot of money, but what use is money without power?

Belteshazzar
2007-07-11, 03:02 PM
Well of course I assume that by the time you have such stat modifiers as to negate spell failure you probably deserve it, because I don't use regular experience charts and I am hard on the magic items (just because a certain level of magic items exist in this town according to the DMG doesn't mean they are always for sale... now a fair trade however)My world's economy likes the barter system more than gold anyhow because seriously not everyone should have standardized or even 'current' currency.

Wolfbite
2007-07-11, 04:50 PM
I have been playing at high levels in D&D campaigns, and I noticed that the spell casters all but overshadow the non-casters. The players of the non-casters say that they are still having fun, but all the things the magic PCs did with their magic: used mass-production rings of sustenance and amulets of health to give every single member of their town so that nobody will have to worry about plagues and famine again, using spells per day to create matter out of nothing, such as Walls of Iron to sell, destabilizing the economy and selling to others in order to get in more gold pieces to make more magic, which will so dramatically alter the fundamentals of the pseudo-feudal system that is prevalent in my campaign (which is Greyhawk, by the way), that it is not even close to being at any sensible technological level. It is like a "Flintstones" effect; magic carpets and broomsticks of flying acting as air transportation, Stone Shape to build structures from the ground up, and the player with Leadership got all Adepts as his followers. He kept arguing when I said that only Commoners, Experts, and Warriors were allowed, saying that the Adepts and Aristocrats were treated as being level-2, from the Epic Level Handbook. He insisted that this was allowed for non-epic characters as well. But Leadership and Adepts are the least of my worries; the permanent duration on several spells that create something from nothing, such as wall of iron, cause spell casters to become so powerful that if I get some new players into the game, jealousy would be understandable.

In short, spell casters can do so much more than non-casters, with their ability to manipulate reality, that I am considering finding an alternate system for magic or just switching to Iron Heroes when I finish my current campaign.

Can anybody help me?



As the GM you can pretty much disallow anything. If doing this kind of stuff is what your players find fun, then in your vast resources you should have something powerful take notice and cause some problems for them. In a fantasy setting, something that doesn't like what they are doing can almost always take notice and make steps to disrupt them. Sure your players may be powerful casters, but there is ALWAYS something more powerful than them, there is a reason why your NPC casters don't do the same things...because they could if you really wanted them to. Balance seeks chaos out.

Another issue is the gold thing. There is really only so much gold in a given kingdom that is currency that players can get their hands on...so really it doesn't make sense for characters to get their hands on exuberant sums of money. And there is no reason communities would allow PC's to bleed them dry. Does the average community really have any use for half the things your party is doing? Maybe at first...but if you do that to one town, other towns may get jealous and agents may appear to cause a huge disruption. Plus if you are handling things properly all item creation feats on some level or another have xp costs, and that is bound to add up eventually.
Unlike video games where you can empty your stock in one tiny shop in one tiny down, D&D is not the same, and should not be handled as such.

Our GM's are extremely good at defining the limits of the campaign world(s). IF as a caster you cannot justify or pull off in game why the hell your character would even consider doing some of the impractical ridiculous things they are capable of, then it is not allowed. Given the world your character is in, there are certain things that good players would consider unrealistic of doing. It is about self controls and GM controls.

Magic in most fantasy settings will always be a factor. Casters will always be more powerful than Frontliners, who craft their weapons and armors usually? However you will always need several different skill sets and classes. Sure a group of Wizards create the super powerful sword of Destruction...but they aren't going to be the ones wielding it. And in a lot of cases Magic can get to the point where things are created that can destroy it. Forget about worlds with active gods...you think they will stand by while these upstart players take acts to disrupt the world they forged? Unlikely.

It just sounds that you have fallen into the classic trap of players who have out ruled you and metagamed to the point of disrupting the balance of your campaign. Just take the reigns back, by determining what is best for your campaign and the world of Greyhawk as you see it. Have a pow-wow over some of the things they've done or introduce NPC's that will begin to undo their disruptiveness. You have ALL the options. Or I suppose you can do what my one friend does in half the games he attempts to run (not one of our good GMs) and just quit the game with some world explosion after the players work around his horribly linear plot. :smalltongue:

Grrosgor
2007-07-11, 08:10 PM
They're using automations to do all the work. Oh, and the more people come to see the lord's "benevolence," with 24 hours, the spell casters can regain their spells.

Forgive my lack of knowledge when it comes to item creation but if they're using spells then they must be devoting a lot of their daily spell slots to cast. If so a smart enemy (I assume they've made some by now) would attack them at the end of the day when they've run dry of their spells?

Just a thought.

Cheers
Grrosgor

Matthew
2007-07-11, 08:17 PM
So, in Greyhawk and other "typical" standard-to-high magic campaigns, why do the Aristocrats rule without the spell casters taking over? I mean, many rulers have levels in an NPC class! Sure, you have a lot of money, but what use is money without power?

Mainly it's because the fluff is inadequettely supported by the mechanics, but there is also a powerful circle of Wizards with a shadowy agenda who may be limiting such things.
Once upon a time, Greyhawk didn't have many NPCs above Level 10 (or so I'm told), and the campaign world is older than the power creep.

Dervag
2007-07-12, 01:01 AM
I would too if I were a spell caster.

So, in Greyhawk and other "typical" standard-to-high magic campaigns, why do the Aristocrats rule without the spell casters taking over? I mean, many rulers have levels in an NPC class! Sure, you have a lot of money, but what use is money without power?Because, like real-world rulers, their power does not come from being physically strong and dangerous. No real person is strong enough to rule a country by sheer muscularity; they'd get murdered in their sleep. Power on that scale comes from being able to enlist the support of other powerful people.

Instead, rulers control countries by a combination of persuasion and tradition. Tradition leads people to respect and follow their leaders; persuasion allows an aristocrat (who is quite capable of having a very good Diplomacy score) to convince others to follow his lead.

Make those ruling aristocrats as optimized diplomatists and suddenly their power becomes a lot easier to understand, even if you use a variant of Diplomacy that doesn't get cheesy at high levels.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-12, 03:46 AM
So, in Greyhawk and other "typical" standard-to-high magic campaigns, why do the Aristocrats rule without the spell casters taking over?

They already have, but they want you to think the aristos are still in charge...

Elana
2007-07-12, 06:43 AM
Hence the bit where you use tiny threads of metal to link all the pieces together, so it's "one object" as far as the spell is concerned but can be separated into suits of plate just by snipping the threads... quite similar to the way a lot of stuff is mass-produced in the real world. Limitations like "only one object" are the easiest thing in the world for the true munchkin to evade.

As for the leather and padding, how much would it cost to hire somebody to attach them? Far, far less than the cost of manufacturing the plates, I'll tell you that much.

A suit of full plate includes not only the metal plates making the main armor, but also gauntlets, boots, a helmet and padding. (not to mention all those buckles and straps)

if you use fabricate for the metal parts you might save half of the time if you're lucky.
(You still need to work the other parts, cut the items you made apart, rasp the former connection points, to remove sharp edges etc. Not to mention all the time you needed to figure out the exact sizes you need for each part.)

now you have used the material worth 500gp to create an item worth 1500 gp, if you have an customer. (Not much demand for that stuff, and if not made to the exact specification of a specific customer, fitting it to a new one inflicts another cost of 200 to 800 gp)

If the setting is based on historical stuff, you are also better a member of the smiths guild or the best you are allowed to do is to sell it for half that price to a smith.

So great work. In a metropolis you might actually be able to find 3 or 4 customers in a year. That is a good reason to max out your armorsmithing skill :)

Saph
2007-07-12, 07:11 AM
As several people have pointed out, Wall of Iron + Fabricate really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Here are a list of problems with it:

First, Wall of Iron makes iron. It doesn't say what kind of iron, or what impurities are in it. Anything not specified in the rules is determined by the DM, which means the DM's completely within his rights to say that it happens to be a kind of iron that's no good for weapons.

Second, Fabricate requires a Craft check, and does not specify whether it only makes one item, or several. Not specified = again, DM decision.

Third, many items, like plate armour and weapons, require other materials than iron. Wood, leather, etc.

Fourth, and maybe I'm missing something here, but as far as I know high-grade historical weapons and armour are made of STEEL. Not iron, steel. Iron versions are going to be worth significantly less (and again, we don't know what kind of iron it is).

Fifth, if this combo makes infinite wealth, why isn't everyone else using it? Answer, assuming you're in a world where the NPCs are not all dumb as rocks: they are. Hence all this does is put the PCs on the same level as everybody else.

Sixth, the D&D worlds still have to follow the laws of supply and demand. If everyone and his mother is mass-producing iron using Wall of Iron spells, then before very long, the price of a lump of iron is going to be roughly equivalent to the price of a large rock.

Seventh, the Wall of Iron infinite wealth trick is supposed to be a JOKE. It's something a bunch of D&D geeks got together to laugh about and file under 'Silly things you can do in D&D rules', like the Commoner Railgun. It's not supposed to actually be used in a game. As the DM, you should have just smacked them first and come up with a reason why it doesn't work afterwards.

That really ought to be enough reasons for it not to work.

- Saph

Arbitrarity
2007-07-12, 11:03 AM
Hmmm... according to the SRD, a wall of iron from wall of iron is as tough as a normal wall of iron. Why am I unsurprised? It's also as tough as forged cold iron.

And really, when something is a joke/on Theroetical Optimization, I agee with Saph. Smite first, provide answers later.

Telonius
2007-07-12, 11:38 AM
Because, like real-world rulers, their power does not come from being physically strong and dangerous. No real person is strong enough to rule a country by sheer muscularity; they'd get murdered in their sleep. Power on that scale comes from being able to enlist the support of other powerful people.

Instead, rulers control countries by a combination of persuasion and tradition. Tradition leads people to respect and follow their leaders; persuasion allows an aristocrat (who is quite capable of having a very good Diplomacy score) to convince others to follow his lead.

Make those ruling aristocrats as optimized diplomatists and suddenly their power becomes a lot easier to understand, even if you use a variant of Diplomacy that doesn't get cheesy at high levels.

I'll second this. Imagine what would happen if a high-level spellcaster actually did try to rule a country. Assuming he's not a BBEG, that means he'd actually have to get down to the details of running a country. The commoners of South Townsville are in the middle of a drought, the King of Somewhere is threatening a trade war, there's dragons sighted on the southern frontier, and on top of all that your aristocracy is scheming and positioning itself to try to be more powerful than you are. You're stuck using most of your spells for defensive purposes all day long, preventing assassins and whatnot (not that this is much different from the typical Batman).

So when, exactly, are you getting the time to research all of your spells? A Sorcerer might be okay with that, but IMO it'd drive a Wizard up the wall.

Shisumo
2007-07-12, 11:56 AM
Just as a random sidenote on Walls of Iron:

I'd be strongly inclined to invoke a certain amount of Platonism in the magic. The spell summons a wall of iron, not iron that happens to be in the shape of a wall. If the wall stops being a wall, it evaporates, because the magic that created it specified an ideal to which the item was required to adhere.

Weird? Sure. But hey, it's magic.

Dervag
2007-07-12, 11:58 AM
It's not just that the wizard would have to spend lots of time and energy running things, though that's a big part of the problem from the wizard's point of view.

The wizard basically has to rule by coercion. He's in charge because he is the most powerful being in the country and nobody can hope to beat him in a fight. Which means he has to be constantly ready for a fight (the 'fastest gun in the West' syndrome). And which means that if people can find a safe way to oppose him, such as pretending to be dumber than they really are, they will tend to take it. A ruler who controls only through personal power will have great difficulty getting the best work out of his people.

And, since his rule is justified only by force, he has no security against more powerful wizards, or extraplanar beings, or powerful clerics who decide to take him out and seize his throne. The wizard has no legitimacy, and legitimacy is important in establishing a lasting government.

Dervag
2007-07-12, 11:59 AM
Just as a random sidenote on Walls of Iron:

I'd be strongly inclined to invoke a certain amount of Platonism in the magic. The spell summons a wall of iron, not iron that happens to be in the shape of a wall. If the wall stops being a wall, it evaporates, because the magic that created it specified an ideal to which the item was required to adhere.

Weird? Sure. But hey, it's magic.It makes sense; it's a variation on my proposal.

I've heard it suggested that Summon spells actually conjure up a sort of Platonic form of the creature they summon- so when you summon a lantern archon you are not summoning any particular lantern archon; you are summoning up an example of the ur-lantern archon.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-12, 12:33 PM
for those with the Faerun book look at page 84, the section where the WotC goes through the reasons why this doesn't happen. What applies in the political arena also applys to economics adn any other damn fool thing your PCs want to try. It basically boils down to the attitude that once you get to the power levels where this sort of thing is possible people don't do it because they understand the conwsequences of doing something huge and powerful without thinking it through, for a real world analogy just look at what happened to the US economy in 1928, and then tanked the rest of the world as well, for a decade. and that didn't even take people who can tell reality to ake a back seat.

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-12, 03:12 PM
Science tells us that nothing is ever truly created or destroyed, merely changed or so on.

If you use that theory, then all that Iron has to be coming from somewhere. If you are feeling vindictive, your players have just ruined every iron-mineral deposit on the entire planet, made vast underground structures unsafe, collapsed vast tracks of land, cause several Tsunami's, caused the entire dwarven empire to become their eternal enemies in the grim, long-term style that only a dwarf can really do justice to, and roused the ire of the entire drow nation, in the course of one little get-rich-quick scheme.
Maybe add in the destruction of world economy, and an explosion of anarchy and crime in the town/country they tried to help, for good measure.

It has the bonus of essentially making the players realise that they, this time, are kind of the BBEG's.

If you're feeling less vindictive, and vengeful "Well done, you've broken the world." then an alternative on the same idea would be that they have seriously, seriously offended the denizens of the elemental plane of Iron. cue the slow reclaiming of the 'stolen' resources, and stern, bludgeoning reprimands for the cheeky chappies responsible!

Arbitrarity
2007-07-12, 03:17 PM
*catgirls die screaming*

Gee, if we use science, I wonder how teleportation, or fireball, or any other effect in D&D functions?

EDIT: On top of that, things can be created/destroyed... just not very long, and not on large scale (statistically). Take, for example, virtual particles. Energy from nowhere, appear, disappear.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-12, 03:29 PM
the other option is to say well done, you have become obscenely wealthy. If played right that is a perfect hook for a long running story arc. If you become in effect a pilar of the community then what do you do, taxation, lifestyle and petty theft can take care of some of it, investment portfolios in banks/moneylenders/property can tie the PCs into giving a monkies about what happens in "their" town, dragons start to take an interest, the service industry of magical ingrediant gathering has a boom as you try to convert all this lovely cold hard cash into magic. etc. etc.

Just look at the effects of winning the lottery, all your problems don't magically disappear, (probably not even when magic is taken into account), many times the "lucky" sods actually have a terrible time dealing with all this sudden wealth, personnally and socially.

the moral is that when the players want something it is occasionally very rewarding to give them exactly that in spadefulls, then make them deal with it.

getting what you want is a sure fire way to wind up unhappy and possibly on the run from the tax man.

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-12, 03:30 PM
*catgirls die screaming*

Gee, if we use science, I wonder how teleportation, or fireball, or any other effect in D&D functions?

EDIT: On top of that, things can be created/destroyed... just not very long, and not on large scale (statistically). Take, for example, virtual particles. Energy from nowhere, appear, disappear.

I have never heard about virtual particles, so I really couldn't comment. It is my genuine understanding, However, that general consensus is that nothing is ever truly destroyed.
Still just a theory, even if most scientists agree with it, or not. Memory being as it is.

anyway, Teleportation, Fireball, and other Effects in DnD work, because the DnD universe contains *different* science. It is a scientific world, it's just one with strange new energies and dimensions and so on. Is it a H R Geiger quote that says something like, at a high enough level magic and technology are indistinguishable?

Dervag
2007-07-12, 04:06 PM
*catgirls die screaming*

Gee, if we use science, I wonder how teleportation, or fireball, or any other effect in D&D functions?The thing about D&D is that the world is assumed to be just about normal everywhere magic is not specifically changing things. Iron in D&D is supposed to be just like iron in the real world. People are supposed to need to eat food, drink water, and sleep, just like in the real world.

And if the world is physically normal, then you can use science to talk about the parts of it that aren't being screwed up by magic. And you can use science to talk about some of the logical consequences of having a lot of magic shaking things up.

So don't be so quick to sneer.


EDIT: On top of that, things can be created/destroyed... just not very long, and not on large scale (statistically). Take, for example, virtual particles. Energy from nowhere, appear, disappear.Quantum mechanics doesn't give you a get-out-of-energy-conservation free card. The 'not very long' periods of time in question are measured in millionths of millionths of seconds; so little time that very nearly nothing can happen in that duration. And the 'not on a large scale' is so small that you can wait for billions of years, watching a huge volume of space, and never see even an atom appear- only single particles that exist for the briefest imaginable time and then vanish.

You can't do anything with those kinds of things; there's no way to manipulate or use virtual particles, and they don't let you escape the conservation of energy because the energy doesn't come from nowhere.


I have never heard about virtual particles, so I really couldn't comment. It is my genuine understanding, However, that general consensus is that nothing is ever truly destroyed.
Still just a theory, even if most scientists agree with it, or not. Memory being as it is.Energy conservation isn't "just" a theory. Physicists are as certain of it as they are that the gravity won't disappear tomorrow morning, and they have at least as many reasons to trust energy conservation as they do to trust gravity to still be there.

Everywhere in the universe that we have been able to look, in every physical process we have been able to examine, from the largest to the most subtle, we see conservation of energy holding perfectly to the limits of our ability to measure. We see no places in the universe where there is any sign of energy appearing from nowhere or vanishing into nowhere. If violations of energy conservation happened in nature on any scale that was remotely meaningful, even the subatomic scale, it would show up like a blinding flare.

Every time anyone has found anything that they thought was an example of energy nonconservation, they later found out that they were mistaken. Either because the thing they thought was happening wasn't real, or because it was real and the energy was coming from a source that they hadn't understood before (such as radioactivity).

Arbitrarity
2007-07-12, 04:22 PM
Quantum mechanics doesn't give you a get-out-of-energy-conservation free card. The 'not very long' periods of time in question are measured in millionths of millionths of seconds; so little time that very nearly nothing can happen in that duration. And the 'not on a large scale' is so small that you can wait for billions of years, watching a huge volume of space, and never see even an atom appear- only single particles that exist for the briefest imaginable time and then vanish.

You can't do anything with those kinds of things; there's no way to manipulate or use virtual particles, and they don't let you escape the conservation of energy because the energy doesn't come from nowhere.



Well, yeah. They exist as they move half their wavelength or somesuch, I seem to recall. That's the rule of thumb.

And claiming that the world works normally, except for magic, so we can apply science to magic, doesn't work. Magic shaking things up? How about conjuring a wall of iron?

Of course you can't do anything with virtual particles. But they are rather interesting, not to mention the issue with renormalizing.

Conservation of energy is true. Actually, I'm not quite sure if I remember how virtual particles fit into it.

Ethdred
2007-07-13, 05:33 AM
Is it a H R Geiger quote that says something like, at a high enough level magic and technology are indistinguishable?

Arthur C Clarke actually, and I the exact quote is 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. Which is of course meaningless, because of that word sufficiently. He's basically saying that any technology that is advanced enough to be indistinguishable from magic will be indistinguishable from magic. Which is true but completely unhelpful and pointless. He also doesn't say what magic is. I can never understand why people keep quoting this one

KIDS
2007-07-13, 05:55 AM
I completely agree with the previously brought up in here premise: basic imbalance exists, and some broken loops exist, so what? Just ask players not to use cheese in the game and that's it. Continue having fun.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-13, 06:50 AM
there are any number of ways in which a person who is cappable of warping reality can derail a carefully crafted plot, the real challenge for any wizard/sorc/CoDzilla/???? is doing so in interesting ways that leave the overall story in tact and the rest of the players enjoying what is happening. Metacheese can be used for good as well as evil, after the barb has just blundered through the town killing random passersby a little judicious mindwiping/brainwashing can work miricles for keeping the DM from doing a nutty (and can be funny), using the same effects to make your character richer than God and lord of the universe is frankly boring to play and boring to play with.

Ethdred
2007-07-13, 07:28 AM
I completely agree with the previously brought up in here premise: basic imbalance exists, and some broken loops exist, so what? Just ask players not to use cheese in the game and that's it. Continue having fun.

The thing is, he said the players are having fun with the cheese in the game - so why not leave it in there and make up adventures that react to the fact that the cheese is being used

Dervag
2007-07-13, 08:16 AM
And claiming that the world works normally, except for magic, so we can apply science to magic, doesn't work. Magic shaking things up? How about conjuring a wall of iron?Then, the iron appears. After that, it is either nonmagical iron (in which case it follows the rules of science, and behaves normally), or, being a product of magic, it continues to break some of the rules of science in specified ways.

My point is that the D&D universe consists of a series of specific exceptions to what one might call 'natural' laws. Many of these exceptions follow their own laws which are effectively just additional laws of physics for the D&D universe.

Again, that's why we assume that even though the world is magical, characters still need to eat, drink, breathe, and sleep. And why a random person can't just stand on thin air. In short, magic is exceptional precisely because there are rules for magic to be an exception from. If we abandon the rules, then we don't have a usable system anymore.


I completely agree with the previously brought up in here premise: basic imbalance exists, and some broken loops exist, so what? Just ask players not to use cheese in the game and that's it. Continue having fun.Because it's possible for some people to have fun closing the loopholes and examining the consequences of the assumptions that allow them to close the loopholes.

You don't have to do that if you don't want to, of course; but you can.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-13, 12:48 PM
Then, the iron appears. After that, it is either nonmagical iron (in which case it follows the rules of science, and behaves normally), or, being a product of magic, it continues to break some of the rules of science in specified ways.

My point is that the D&D universe consists of a series of specific exceptions to what one might call 'natural' laws. Many of these exceptions follow their own laws which are effectively just additional laws of physics for the D&D universe.



That is true. I disagree with applying conservation of matter to the magic creating it, but its existence, as non-magical iron, has science applicable to it. So it rusts. And, logically, unless there is some overriding principle of magic and creation, I can modify it.

Actually, I should make some rules relating to how magic really works in D&D at some point.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-07-13, 01:40 PM
Without a house rule or drastic in-game consequences, you can't really fix the wall of iron exploit.

Dealing with the caster/noncaster imbalance: If the players don't have a problem with it, it's fine. Otherwise, offer to let noncasters rebuild as Tome of Battle noncasters or just as casters.

Wall of iron and science: If you're going to apply modern (as opposed to Aristotelian/otherwise pre-Newtonian) physics to a D&D universe, magic generally has to suppress conservation of energy over the course of a spell just to work. Also, even if you're pulling iron that already exists, there's no reason it's being pulled from the same planet, or even plane of existence. Wall of iron could very well draw iron out of the Elemental Plane of Earth, which is just an infinite mass of rock, dirt, and clay, in endless variety. Applying conservation of energy is not going to fix this problem.

One point that got glossed over in the thread, but was mentioned in the OP: Leadership got changed for 3.5. In 3.0, it had a clause saying that followers are experts/warriors/commoners; in 3.5 they took that clause out; followers have PC classes now. The epic book was written in 3.0 days, so it has level costs for abnormally-classed followers; those don't apply anymore, and you can get real casters, not just adepts.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-13, 06:40 PM
wow. real casters. my epic liche has to get the leadership feat as soon as possible, hundreds of levels 1,2 and 3 slots in my epic spells for the cost of one feat slot.

the leadership feat really should have ahouse rule of non-casters only as followers, even at low levels it means effectively infinate healing/alchemal products/crazy ****. these aren't payed lackies, these are peope that follow you around just cause your great and saved their village, having them all able to cast cure light wounds makes this the most broken feat in the game.