Divine Metamagic Persisting Owls Wisdom

[lytokk]

So, a player in my game is playing a DMM Persist cleric, and is using it to cast Owls Wisdom on himself. He feels that since every persisted spell lasts for 24 hours, he gets to use that bump in his wisdom for spell prep. My feeling was always that a casting of Owls Wisdom isn't a permanent increase to wisdom, like the periapt would be, so it doesn't contribute to bonus spells. But I don't have a lot of exposure to persistant spells, so I'm not sure if there's an actual ruling on this. I've looked into how it works and everything, but am not quite sure about this ruling.

Any help anyone could give me would be welcomed.

[Braininthejar2]

Works for me.

And seriously, if the best use he can find for persist is to copy a 16k item, it's not a big deal.

[DarkSoul]

This question arose IMC last night. I'm going to let persistent spells work just like magical items. It's really no better than a +4 wisdom item at that point. It opens a body slot but it's still easily dispelled.

[Venger]

So, a player in my game is playing a DMM Persist cleric, and is using it to cast Owls Wisdom on himself. He feels that since every persisted spell lasts for 24 hours, he gets to use that bump in his wisdom for spell prep. My feeling was always that a casting of Owls Wisdom isn't a permanent increase to wisdom, like the periapt would be, so it doesn't contribute to bonus spells. But I don't have a lot of exposure to persistant spells, so I'm not sure if there's an actual ruling on this. I've looked into how it works and everything, but am not quite sure about this ruling.

Any help anyone could give me would be welcomed.



Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl’s wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom

It explicitly does not work like this. it's not because it's not permanent, it's just explicitly disallowed in the spell text itself.

as others have said, if you want to allow it for game balance reasons, that's fine. it's a pretty non-game breaking thing to waste one of your persistent spells on.

[Name1]

As Venger said, it doesn't work like that. Are you 100% sure you don't mean Owl's Insight?

[Nettlekid]

Venger is absolutely correct, but personally I'd agree with Darksoul and Braininthejar2 and permit it as a DM. In both cases the character would have a nonpermanent +4 enhancement bonus to Wis on them 24 hours a day. I'd say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Venger]

Venger is absolutely correct, but personally I'd agree with Darksoul and Braininthejar2 and permit it as a DM. In both cases the character would have a nonpermanent +4 enhancement bonus to Wis on them 24 hours a day. I'd say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

in case it was unclear, I also agree with them. while in a vacuum, the cleric class doesn't need any power boosts, if your player thinks this is the best thing t do with persistent metamagic, it's probably not doing any harm to give him some more slots. plus it won't stack with an item.

[lytokk]

Is it a gamebreaking boost, no not really. He's blowing a persisted spell on a couple of extra spells per day. Its not the worst thing out there, but I'll have to give it consideration as to if it's allowable.

[Venger]

Is it a gamebreaking boost, no not really. He's blowing a persisted spell on a couple of extra spells per day. Its not the worst thing out there, but I'll have to give it consideration as to if it's allowable.

my rationale was more to assume that a player who was using a persisted slot on owl's wisdom isn't the kind to be chaingating in solars and might need a leg up in this fashion. if he's reasonably competent at playing a cleric then yeah, he doesn't really need a power boost, it's a very strong list.

[Deophaun]

in case it was unclear, I also agree with them. while in a vacuum, the cleric class doesn't need any power boosts, if your player thinks this is the best thing t do with persistent metamagic, it's probably not doing any harm to give him some more slots. plus it won't stack with an item.
Or he's figured out a way to get owl's insight and is getting this ruling now to let him break the game later.

So, no. Don't do it.

[Name1]

Or he's figured out a way to get owl's insight and is getting this ruling now to let him break the game later.

So, no. Don't do it.

But these two are different from each other: Owl's Wisdom specifically calls out that it can't give slots, so persisting it shouldn't help ad he's asking him to houserule. If he really wanted to break the game using Owl's Insight, he wouldn't have asked, simply because by RAW, OI already grats slots, so calling attention to it would be unneccessary and counterintuitive.

[DarkSoul]

Considering the periapt of wisdom is crafted using Owl's Wisdom and it grants spell slots, or at least doesn't say it doesn't grant them the way the spell does, a persistent Owl's Wisdom that grants slots is functionally identical to a periapt +4. He could easily just wear that and use some rules shenanigans to get Owl's Insight for the same effect.

[Fouredged Sword]

The secret here is that DMM persist is a dangerous thing that will unbalance your game at the drop of a hat.

On a side note, I have a simple houserule that resolves these problems. Every caster requires some period to set their spells for the day and recover their spell slots. I have always ruled that this is the only period you can gain spell slots. Any bonuses you have during this period determine your spell slots.

That said, you can lose spell slots at any time. If your bonus is removed or even just suppressed I get out my dice and you lose a random spell of the effected levels.