Stalwart Sorcerer or warmage?

[CaPtMalHammer]

in a build with abjurant champion and eldritch knight, warmage or stalwart sorcerer?

[Venger]

in a build with abjurant champion and eldritch knight, warmage or stalwart sorcerer?

what is your ultimate goal for the build? if it's overall power and versatility, sorcerer (not stalwart sorcerer, it is terrible) if you're trying to handicap yourself to play on par with a less experienced group, go for warmage.

if you're just contemplating stalwart sorcerer to boost your BA and weapon proficiencies, look at ruathar instead to get it up in time to qualify for abjchamp.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Just looking for a combat melee type casting character. we are limited to PH1 and PH2 and complete books. no race books., no online, no DM. no 3.0 tomes etc. :) and stalwart doesn't add to BAB does it? thought it just got rid of 1 spell for HP and a weapon focus feat?

PS have played Duskblades in past and wanted to change it up:) have not played with sorcerer or warmage much.

[Venger]

Just looking for a combat melee type casting character. we are limited to PH1 and PH2 and complete books. no race books., no online, no DM. no 3.0 tomes etc. :) and stalwart doesn't add to BAB does it? thought it just got rid of 1 spell for HP and a weapon focus feat?

PS have played Duskblades in past and wanted to change it up:) have not played with sorcerer or warmage much.

ok. in the future, if you're looking for build advice and have a banlist in place, lead with that, it'll help you get relevant advice more quickly.

I was probably conflating stalwart sorcerer with battle sorcerer.

what's the rationale behind your dm's banlist? is it availability of books? if that's the case, you might ask if he'll allow the swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) class, since that's a popular way of achieving your goal of being a gish. it's official wotc material, so if his no online rule is to filter out terrible dandwiki content (noble goal) then this might not trip it. if that's not allowed anyway then never mind

your game sounds pretty low-op so you should probably be able to do fine with straight warmage. it's a fun class, but it doesn't really gain a lot from eldritch knight/abjchamp. there isn't much synergy between the two classes due to its poor ba and nonreliance on strength.

[Grim Reader]

Warmage suffers a bit from lack of variety in the spell list. Ask if you can do a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Perfectly playable gish.

[Venger]

Warmage suffers a bit from lack of variety in the spell list. Ask if you can do a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Perfectly playable gish.

there's always wands, runestaves, and expanded knowledge.

[CaPtMalHammer]

yeah I normally start with any ban lists sorry:) as for his restrictions. mostly the online ban is for overpowered and horrible home brew stuff and some of the stuff in the DM can disrupt a game. myself when I DM I ban them as well:) lets just say been in a game that ended with people yelling and walking out because of that content. :) as for book restrictions I think its partially because of availability. The DM likes to have a physical copy of the book and does not trust pdf copies. Swiftblade I have seen but never found an official source. just online here and wiki things. I was thinking straight warmage myself as well but wanted to play around with those prestige classes. I know there are typical GISH builds etc. myself I like to go outside those norms and have fun with Charectors. they don't have to be opt. like to try different combos etc. I know this game has been around long enough that every super over powered broken GISH or Pun Pun like opt build has been found. my issue is that following those you seem to lose the fun of exploring the system:) that's why I asked here which people think would work better or maybe more interesting:) and thank you for your help.

[Grim Reader]

Oh, if you are set on the prestige classes, stalwart and battle sorcerer is not a good idea. The advantages dont apply to prc levels. The disadvantages do.


there's always wands, runestaves, and expanded knowledge.

Thats a valid way of doing it too.

[Venger]

yeah I normally start with any ban lists sorry:) as for his restrictions. mostly the online ban is for overpowered and horrible home brew stuff and some of the stuff in the DM can disrupt a game. myself when I DM I ban them as well:) lets just say been in a game that ended with people yelling and walking out because of that content. :)

That's what I thought. thanks for clarifying. I can definitely understand that.


as for book restrictions I think its partially because of availability. The DM likes to have a physical copy of the book and does not trust pdf copies. Swiftblade I have seen but never found an official source. just online here and wiki things.
fair enough. that is the official source that I linked you to. swiftblade is an online-only class. that's wotc's official page. it's not homebrew. if your dm disallows it on its own merits, that's his prerogative, but it is official 3.5 content.


I was thinking straight warmage myself as well but wanted to play around with those prestige classes. I know there are typical GISH builds etc. myself I like to go outside those norms and have fun with Charectors. they don't have to be opt. like to try different combos etc. I know this game has been around long enough that every super over powered broken GISH or Pun Pun like opt build has been found. my issue is that following those you seem to lose the fun of exploring the system:) that's why I asked here which people think would work better or maybe more interesting:) and thank you for your help.

I'm a little lost. I don't think I understand how you're using the word gish. it just means a character who can cast spells and also dabble in melee combat. it doesn't have to be an optimized character.

anyway, see what your dm thinks of swiftblade and if you or he don't like it then it's back to the drawing board.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Cool will do thanks:) and just a clarification on stalwart sorcerer? the weapon proficiency and weapon focus feat don't go away when you PRC does it? I know the hit points don't carry over but I didn't think you lost the benefit of the proficiency and focus?

[Venger]

Cool will do thanks:) and just a clarification on stalwart sorcerer? the weapon proficiency and weapon focus feat don't go away when you PRC does it? I know the hit points don't carry over but I didn't think you lost the benefit of the proficiency and focus?

no, they do not. you keep everything. there is no way in the game for you to lose weapon/armor proficiencies by multiclassing.

[Grim Reader]

Correct. It is the hit points that go away. The feats, however, are not in themselves worth a lot of lost magic.

[Venger]

Correct. It is the hit points that go away. The feats, however, are not in themselves worth a lot of lost magic.

just to be clear: you don't lose the hit points from your earlier levels. you just don't continue to get boosted HD for your prc levels. yeah, it isn't a very good trade.

[Troacctid]

What level are you starting at? This is very important, because depending on your starting level, it may be functionally impossible to play certain classes as a gish from the start.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Cool thank you all, and its low levelish we are starting at level 5. :0 and thank you all. and yeah I figured you don't lose the HP from previous levels. :) I would never take BS and SS together yuck:) SS maybe by itself. depending on if casting was the goal or not.

[lylsyly]

Swiftblade is here; [URL="http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327"[/URL]

Don't think it gets anymore "official" than something produced by WotC. But maybe that's just me.

Edit: Don't know why the link won't post right :smallconfused:

[Kaje]

I would never take BS and SS together yuck:)

Take a look again. Adding Stalwart to BS only loses you 2 spells, one at level 3 and one at level 20. Combining the two is pretty good if you're already ok with the lost spells from one, and if you're not PrCing out.

[Pyromancer999]

You may want a level in Spellsword in there, in order to get some reduction in ACF. Also, for full martial weapon proficiencies, you'll need to take at least one level in a warrior-type class(given your DM does not allow the book the Dragonslayer is in). Hexblade is good for Charisma-based synergy, and Rage from Barbarian is never bad. Or you could just go Fighter for the extra bonus feat. Duskblade is certainly possible, but there's not too much synergy there. Paladin isn't bad, but requires 2 levels for Divine Grace, which loses you 9th level spells.

[EndocrineBandit]

If the complete books are allowed why not do a warmage/rainbow servant? Ninth level spells, and full access to the entire cleric spell list spontaneously.. Why not? Plus access to a couple of domains.

[Troacctid]

If the complete books are allowed why not do a warmage/rainbow servant? Ninth level spells, and full access to the entire cleric spell list spontaneously.. Why not? Plus access to a couple of domains.
Not so great if you're starting at level 5—you're a looong ways away from the big payoff.

[EndocrineBandit]

And in the mean time, Put the spells you have access to to use, get a cross bow, blast things, and maybe snag a couple of reserve feats. I recall the electrical one being particularly useful during combat.

[Fizban]

I find it amusing how much people poo-poo the hp bonus of stalwart and battle sorcerer while demanding massive amount of con all the time. Hey, you wouldn't need +4 con for hit points if you had +2 hp/level. Edit: that must have been the other thread, point still stands though.

Warmage is not a gish: it's intentionally a trap. Cast in light armor and a couple spells that look like combat buffs are actually trolling you. That said, it's not actually a bad class, if what you want is blasting and a little battlefield control and not self-buffing, Warmage is easy and it can enter all the same gish classes (even Abjurant Champion thanks to Fire Trap). It won't gain the main benefits, but Arcane Boost is actually useful for a Warmage where it would be terrible for an actual caster, and you're here for the BAB/HD anyway. I have an expanded list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21272815&postcount=10) which you might ask your DM for.

Battle Sorcerer and Stalwart Sorcerer on the other hand do not want to enter PrCs, because then they lose their main benefit. Aside from Abjurant Champion of course, since it's full/d10 is still better than the base on either. If you combine the two you have an effective d12 hit die, which beats any actual gish class for hp, but your spells known are even more restricted (assuming the DM migrates the lost spell from stalwart intelligently) and you're playing less of a caster and more of a guy with a few magic tricks. So as always, if that's what you want then it's good. Burning spell slots on Arcane Strike is more fun if you don't have a ton of spells to feel guilty about not casting. It's also possible to just push a fairly standard metamagic build without all the lol invincible buffs, just Lesser Orb/Combust/Fireball/Orb/Arcane Fusion/Lingering Flames/Arcane Spellsurge/Greater Fusion/borked 9th level spell of your choice. You're got about as many tricks as a fighter even if you're still better at it, yay balance!

[Venger]

I find it amusing how much people poo-poo the hp bonus of stalwart and battle sorcerer while demanding massive amount of con all the time. Hey, you wouldn't need +4 con for hit points if you had +2 hp/level.

Agree with everything else you said but you can always just buy an amulet of con (or use one of the zillion spells out there like false life or what have you) to get more hp. getting more spell slots or spells known is more cumbersome/expensive/annoying.

[Fizban]

And the Stalwart or Battle Sorcerer isn't buying the same amulet of con? Nothing the normal sorcerer is doing for hp bonuses is anything that can't be copied, but the variant has more base hp, which means he has a higher hp cap. Which is kindof ridiculously important if you plan on standing next to things that deal hp damage.

[CaPtMalHammer]

rainbow servent is an interesting idea:) didn't think about that one at all. Was thinking maybe doing a sorcerer build with spinning halberd. using SS to get the focus etc:) just a thought. something about a two weapon fighter with magic tricks and not wearing armor because you can buff yourself. Rainbow servent does have a requirement issue to go into it doesn't it? some roleplaying thing I would have to work out? and yeah the more I look I think warmage is not the way to go, duskblade is interesting but they have armor proficiencies that just seem a waste. Hexblade never thought of that one:) Bard It seems has to little spells to actually be useful. wizard has no hp at all so is not a good choice I think.

[Grim Reader]

rainbow servent is an interesting idea:) didn't think about that one at all. Was thinking maybe doing a sorcerer build with spinning halberd. using SS to get the focus etc:) just a thought. something about a two weapon fighter with magic tricks and not wearing armor because you can buff yourself. Rainbow servent does have a requirement issue to go into it doesn't it? some roleplaying thing I would have to work out? and yeah the more I look I think warmage is not the way to go, duskblade is interesting but they have armor proficiencies that just seem a waste. Hexblade never thought of that one:) Bard It seems has to little spells to actually be useful. wizard has no hp at all so is not a good choice I think.

Hexblade is very poor, even the designer admitted it. Rainbow Servant is good, but the payoff comes late. Duskblade is ok, you may want to work a little to expand spells known. Pathfinders Magus is probably the best one right out of the box.

[Venger]

rainbow servent is an interesting idea:) didn't think about that one at all. Was thinking maybe doing a sorcerer build with spinning halberd. using SS to get the focus etc:) just a thought. something about a two weapon fighter with magic tricks and not wearing armor because you can buff yourself. Rainbow servent does have a requirement issue to go into it doesn't it? some roleplaying thing I would have to work out? and yeah the more I look I think warmage is not the way to go, duskblade is interesting but they have armor proficiencies that just seem a waste. Hexblade never thought of that one:) Bard It seems has to little spells to actually be useful. wizard has no hp at all so is not a good choice I think.

hard to go wrong with rainbow servant. you just need to find a temple or something. talk to your gm and he can incorporate it into your current adventure or handwave it into something else depending on your setting. also remember text trumps table. rainbow servant is full casting, not 6/10.

[Soranar]

I would second the stalwart sorcerer+ battle sorcerer advice
It gives you d8+2 hitpoints, proficiencies, limited spell knowns but no actual caster level loss and no need for wasted feats or skillpoints

And with medium BAB and light armor, you don't really need anything else

Besides, you best fighting spell will probably be polymorph anyway and you get it at level 8 I think?

[Endarire]

In this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502593-Pros-vs-Cons-of-Two-Gish-Builds) I proposed a solution of Wizard/Sevenfold Veil. You get more casting and your gishing comes later via polymorph, alter self, and co.

[EndocrineBandit]

I'm pretty adamant about you proposing warmage/rainbow servant. If you can get him to allow the environmental books, sandstorm/stormwrack/frostburn the sand shaper class is a useful level dip into for a warmage, too. If you can handle the low bab for a while it will pay off when you get higher level spells, especially once you add cleric to your known spells. You really become an uber-shiny-swiss-army-knife-of-doom at that point.

[Grim Reader]

Warmage/Rainbow Serpent is great -at level 16 and on. But its a long slog up there, and if you want to play a gish, you'll end up playing something else for 75 % of your career. Ten levels of Rainbow Serpent means no levels of Abjurant Champion or Eldritch Knight.

Duskblade is great with a level of Sand Shaper, or a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Both will let you gish from level 1.