Melf's Minute Meteors vs. Fire Bolt Cantrip

[ruy343]

So, there's a really cool-sounding spell in the Elemental Evil player's guide called Melf's Minute Meteors. Here's the text of the spell (it's free online, so it's not against forum rules to post... i think...:

Melf’s Minute Meteors
3rd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (niter, sulfur, and pine tar formed
into a bead)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You create six tiny meteors in your space. They float
in the air and orbit you for the spell’s duration. When
you cast the spell—and as a bonus action on each of
your turns thereafter—you can expend one or two of
the meteors, sending them streaking toward a point
or points you choose within 120 feet of you. Once a
meteor reaches its destination or impacts against a solid
surface, the meteor explodes. Each creature within 5
feet of the point where the meteor explodes must make
a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 2d6 fire
damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a
successful one.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a
spell slot of 4th level or higher, the number of meteors
created increases by two for each slot level above 3rd.

Now, my big question is: why would I pick this spell over the Fire Bolt cantrip, or, on a good day, the Flaming Sphere spell? It's inferior to both in many ways... It has such potential, and I kind of want to take it anyway because it's cool, but I can't think of any ways to more powerfully use it. Thoughts?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Look carefully...

When
you cast the spell—and as a bonus action on each of
your turns thereafter—you can expend one or two of
the meteors, sending them streaking toward a point
or points you choose within 120 feet of you..
2d6 area damage as a bonus action ain't bad. Use it 4 times and it's like a better-aimed Fireball. And the duration is long enough to cast it before the fight breaks out.

[Kryx]

By my Spell Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) spreadsheet Melf's Minute Meteors is a great spell. It does an AoE 5 which means either 4 squares or 9 depending on how your GM rules half square hits (I'd rule effective 4 squares - though I don't use squares). That's quite a few creatures who take 2d6, or 4d6 assuming you sent both at the same square.

It averages 14 damage with a typical 55% save failure or 7.7 damage per target hit for 3 rounds.

Fire Bolt on the other hand does 1d10. Averages 5.5*.65 = 3.575 damage on 1 target. At 5th level it'll do 7.15 against 1 target. At 11th it'll do 10.725 against one target. It is not comparable at all to melf's minute meteors.
Flaming Sphere does 2d6 or half on a save per round against 1 creature with a very unlikely chance of other creatures getting burned on it. It's great for controlling areas, but poor AoE damage and poor burst which melf's minute meteors offers.

[ruy343]

Thanks for those perspectives: that helps a lot! That means I can keep doing my silly wizard things and still be able to throw out damage on my turns!

As an aside, why isn't this spell a Conjuration spell? Wizards get pathetically few conjuration spells 3rd level...

Finally, on a related tangent, can we all agree that the word "Minute" is pronounced mai-noot?

[MeeposFire]

Yea the bonus action part is not casting a spell so you can cast whatever you want and still throw up to two meteors a turn.

[Tanarii]

By my Spell Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) spreadsheet Melf's Minute Meteors is a great spell. It does an AoE 5 which means either 4 squares or 9 depending on how your GM rules half square hits (I'd rule effective 4 squares - though I don't use squares). That's quite a few creatures who take 2d6, or 4d6 assuming you sent both at the same square.What standard do you use for AoE hits? By the DMG rules for adjudicating AoEs, which are obviously intended for ToTM instead of battle maps, they'd typically only hit one creature. On average. Plus possible 1d3, plus possible bunched up bonus.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As an aside, why isn't this spell a Conjuration spell? Wizards get pathetically few conjuration spells 3rd level...
Because it's all about doing big splashy fire damage. 3.5 had a huge problem with shoving every effect under the sun into the Conjuration school; I'm please to see that 5e is doing a better job keeping schools consistent.

[odigity]

I loved the spell upon discovering it, too, but the big question I've had since is: How does it compare to fireball?

I've designed two chars with access to both but limited spells known (a Bard and a Sorcerer), and I couldn't figure out which I'd prefer - and I think taking both is probably too many spells known spent on 3rd level fire AOEs.

[Kryx]

What standard do you use for AoE hits? By the DMG rules for adjudicating AoEs, which are obviously intended for ToTM instead of battle maps, they'd typically only hit one creature. On average. Plus possible 1d3, plus possible bunched up bonus.
If you look at the spell settings page you can see how many targets I assume for different AoEs on the bottom left. Though this sheet isn't perfect - conditions are quite difficult to evaluate and the current way I do it is awful.

If there is only 1 target in AoE 5 then there are far better spells than melfs minute meteors.

[RickAllison]

I loved the spell upon discovering it, too, but the big question I've had since is: How does it compare to fireball?

I've designed two chars with access to both but limited spells known (a Bard and a Sorcerer), and I couldn't figure out which I'd prefer - and I think taking both is probably too many spells known spent on 3rd level fire AOEs.

I prefer MMM, but I don't see much of the huge groups that make Fireball so useful.

[Specter]

Bonus action extra damage is gold. You can cast the meteors and a Firebolt at the same round, for some good 5d6 damage for three turns.

If you're an EK, even better, as you can attack three times and still do area damage.

[DracoKnight]

The one change my group made to Melf's minute meteors was to make it non-concentration. The wizard shouldn't have to choose between casting this and buffing the fighter. But that was just the conclusion we came to. What does everyone think about that tweak?

[lordshadowisle]

I loved the spell upon discovering it, too, but the big question I've had since is: How does it compare to fireball?

I think Fireball is superior, with several caveats. Generally, burst damage is better than damage over time. With Fireball, there is a good chance you can be rid of low level mooks, or (with party's help) burst down an enemy.

Minute meteor also uses concentration, which might be better used elsewhere, and exposes you to the chance of dropping the spell.

That said, it's not terrible; there are situations where is works as well as or better than Fireball. I wouldn't pick it up as a sorcerer though, since they have too limited spell choices to have such a duplication.

[Tanarii]

If you look at the spell settings page you can see how many targets I assume for different AoEs on the bottom left. Though this sheet isn't perfect - conditions are quite difficult to evaluate and the current way I do it is awful.Ill dig into it. You got me thought, I was being lazy and hoping your summarize. :smallbiggrin:


If there is only 1 target in AoE 5 then there are far better spells than melfs minute meteors.
yeah, clearly that's more a case of the DMG guidelines breaking down at an edge case of a 5' radius explosion.

[Joe the Rat]

Yea the bonus action part is not casting a spell so you can cast whatever you want and still throw up to two meteors a turn.
Indeed. It's not MMM v Firebolt, it's MMM & Firebolt.

[MeeposFire]

Indeed. It's not MMM v Firebolt, it's MMM & Firebolt.

Or on the 2nd round+ it could be MMM & Fireball.

[Drackolus]

If you're fighting small groups, for several rounds at least, mmm is very good. If you're say,a fire draconic sorcerer and/or have empower, fireball is basically a clear winner.
If MMM is ruled to hit 9 squares, it suddenly becomes a much more viable option. However, even taking the extra sorcery point cost into account, it doesn't stand up to twinned haste unless you're fairly likely to lose concentration.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Thanks for those perspectives: that helps a lot! That means I can keep doing my silly wizard things and still be able to throw out damage on my turns!

As an aside, why isn't this spell a Conjuration spell? Wizards get pathetically few conjuration spells 3rd level...

Finally, on a related tangent, can we all agree that the word "Minute" is pronounced mai-noot?

Forever my-newt.

[Professor Gnoll]

Forever my-newt.
Of course. If it was pronounced like minute as in a measurement of time, it'd be called Melf's Ten-Minute Meteors.

[Sir cryosin]

Why not pair it with acid splash. To be hitting a good amount of people and at that lv acid splash has 2d6 for each target.