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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Bringing them up to speed: the Champion.



dropbear8mybaby
2016-10-11, 02:11 AM
EDIT: Changed some stuff.

I'm in the process of reworking 5e to correct all the things I see as failings or errors. This is obviously tainted by my bias and since it's only for my group, I hope people understand that I'm not looking to argue whether something is or isn't a failing or an error.

What I am interested in, is whether or not the things I come up with are bad, imbalanced, etc. or suggestions on how I could improve them, or what else I could do that you've done for the same "problem".

My first project is the Champion sub-class of the fighter. I really just don't feel like it's up to par. I'm basing this off the assumption that the so-called "Tier 1" classes like the battlemaster, are the standard to which all other things should equal, or at least be competitive with. I tend to view something as being "balanced" when it's a difficult choice between the two options. At the moment, if a player wants to go a single-class fighter, then battlemaster really is the premium option and champion is rarely even considered. I'd like it to be a difficult choice between the two.

One thing I should note that may affect all other assumptions, especially when it comes to fighters, is that both Great Weapon Fighter and Sharpshooter will not have the -5/+10 mechanic in my homebrew alt-5e system.

So first of all I think that the Champion should have an additional ability at 3rd-level. I'm calling this Superior Fighting Style. Essentially the idea is to enhance whatever fighting styles the character has (even ones from other classes if they multi-class). These enhancements should be nice little additions but nothing too overpowering. Something that will come up in play often enough to distinguish a champion from a battle master, but also be simple so as to keep in line with the Champion's schtick.

Some spit-balled ideas so far:

Remarkable Athlete. At 3rd-level when you choose the Champion subclass, you gain Expertise in Acrobatics and Athletics and can use Dash as a bonus action on your turn.

Superior Fighting Style. You gain this benefit at 7th level. Increase the benefit of your fighting styles.


Archery. Gain advantage on all ranged attack rolls made during a turn in which you do not move and use a bonus action to aim.
Defence. You can reduce your movement to 0 at the start of your turn. From then until the start of your next turn, all attacks against you have disadvantage.
Great Weapon Fighting. You gain an additional 5 ft. of reach with any two-handed, heavy melee weapon that you wield.
Protection. Any ally of whom you have used your protection fighting style to benefit, does not provoke attacks of opportunity from the enemy you used the ability against, until the start of your next turn.
Sidearm Fighting (Dueling). You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from any opponent whom you have attacked, for the duration of your turn in which you attacked them.
Two-Weapon Fighting. Your off-hand weapon no longer needs to be light.

Lalliman
2016-10-11, 06:00 AM
The old Remarkable Athlete adds versatility by making you at least decent at all physical checks (including, notably, initiative checks). Your version actively takes versatility away: with both expertise and advantage on shoving and grappling built into the class, you'd be a fool not to build the character completely around doing this. The only valid Champion builds will be sword and board with Shield Master, or Duelling with a free hand for grappling. Ranged fighters in particular will miss out on most of the benefit. As such, you've achieved the opposite of your intended goal: the choice between playing a Champion or a Battle Master will come down to one simple question: Do I want to play a Str-based shove and/or grapple fighter? If yes, go Champion. If no, go Battle Master.

Personally, I'd be inclined to overhaul Remarkable Athlete as such:


Remarkable Athlete
Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus. Additionally, you gain one of the following benefits. You can't change the chosen benefit later.
Brawny Athlete. You gain Expertise in Athletics. You must already have proficiency in Athletics to gain this benefit.
Agile Athlete. You gain Expertise in Acrobatics, and you can take the Dash action as a bonus action on your turn. You must already have proficiency in Acrobatics to gain this benefit.


This way, you retain the versatility and grant an extra benefit depending on whether the character is Str-based or Dex-based. I included the bonus action Dash only in Agile Athlete because Athletics are much more valuable than Acrobatics.

As for Superior Fighting Style, I like the idea, but the usefulness of the different styles strikes me as inconsistent. I'll give them some more thought and maybe come back to that later.

dropbear8mybaby
2016-10-11, 07:19 AM
The old Remarkable Athlete adds versatility by making you at least decent at all physical checks (including, notably, initiative checks). Your version actively takes versatility away: with both expertise and advantage on shoving and grappling built into the class, you'd be a fool not to build the character completely around doing this.
I have to disagree on this. Remarkable Athlete is pretty useless except for the small bonus to initiative, and if you're going a Dex-based fighter, then you're already getting the far superior benefits of Dexterity over Strength and RA's initiative bonus just doubles-down on that. Other than that, a Strength-based fighter is going to have virtually no use for the Dexterity-based skills, except for the odd Acrobatics check and a +1 at 7th, +2 at 9th and finally a +3 at 17th is very meh. Stealth is out since heavy armour, Sleight of Hand on a fighter? Meh.

And on a Dex-based fighter, Acrobatics & Stealth are most likely already trained, so the benefit is reduced even for them.

But I get where you're coming from, just disagree on the versatility of the original.


The only valid Champion builds will be sword and board with Shield Master, or Duelling with a free hand for grappling. Ranged fighters in particular will miss out on most of the benefit. As such, you've achieved the opposite of your intended goal: the choice between playing a Champion or a Battle Master will come down to one simple question: Do I want to play a Str-based shove and/or grapple fighter? If yes, go Champion. If no, go Battle Master.
Well, all builds can benefit from being harder to grapple/shove, the only difference is whether you use Acrobatics or Athletics to defend against it. Athletics having the advantage because it can be used to both defend and attack, but I already think Dexterity is far too favoured in this edition.


This way, you retain the versatility and grant an extra benefit depending on whether the character is Str-based or Dex-based. I included the bonus action Dash only in Agile Athlete because Athletics are much more valuable than Acrobatics.
My biggest problem with your version is that it again gives far too much benefit to Dex builds which are already so heavily favoured in this edition that I really couldn't bring myself to pump them even further.


As for Superior Fighting Style, I like the idea, but the usefulness of the different styles strikes me as inconsistent. I'll give them some more thought and maybe come back to that later.
Yeah, it's difficult coming up with ones with the criteria I set out. Archery, for instance, already has an incredibly powerful fighting style so shouldn't be boosted as much as the others, IMO. Whereas few people take Defence or Protection so I think their benefits should be a bit more attractive. So I'm not sure being inconsistent is such a bad thing.

Lalliman
2016-10-11, 09:58 AM
I agree the original Remarkable Athlete isn't very useful, I was just pointing out the design philosophy.

I think whether Dex is favoured over Str depends on how you look at it. It's true that the usefulness of Str depends almost entirely on the ability to shove and grapple, whereas many of the benefits of Dex are passive. If you make a Str-based character and don't make extensive use of shoving and grappling, then yes, it's worse than Dex. Shoving and grappling are, however, extremely potent when used effectively. So to me it seems the problem is less about Dex being better than Str when both are played optimally, but more that Str forces the character to be played a certain way. Your solution of granting the Champion bonuses to these actions worsens that problem rather than solving it.

It also seems to me that an imbalance between ability scores should be solved at the source instead of fighting the symptoms by having a certain class favour one over the other. Admittedly, solving this problem at the source is difficult without buffing the already powerful barbarian. Buffing the power of Str weapons and heavy armour comes to mind, but that probably has issues. Surely this problem has been discussed in depth elsewhere.

Anyways, regardless of the state of Str vs Dex, your version of Remarkable Athlete remains flawed. For one, the flavour is one-sided. It sends the message "Champions are incredibly strong", which doesn't mesh with the fact that they can be Dex-based. I think the fighter, and especially the designed-to-be-über-accessible Champion, should be a valid choice for both Str and Dex characters, both mechanically and thematically. That's why I wanted to give them a choice.
Secondly, the fact that it's designed to single-handedly demolish bounded accuracy just doesn't sit right with me. Keep in mind, very few creatures in the Monster Manual have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics (or any proficiency for that matter), so against WOTC's monster design, this feature ensures that your shoves and grapples will succeed 95% of the time.

Perhaps another suggestion.

Remarkable Athlete
At 7th level, you gain proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics. If you are already proficient in either skill, you instead gain Expertise in that skill. Additionally, you can take the Dash action as a bonus action on your turn.

This one does away with the original benefit completely, because it already has the all-rounder aspect built-in. It's not disruptive to the theme of a character: both skills are boosted, but the one that was initially better, remains better. And while it theoretically favours neither Str nor Dex, I think in practice it slightly favours Str, since Athletics is more valuable than Acrobatics. What do you think?

dropbear8mybaby
2016-10-11, 05:12 PM
This one does away with the original benefit completely, because it already has the all-rounder aspect built-in. It's not disruptive to the theme of a character: both skills are boosted, but the one that was initially better, remains better. And while it theoretically favours neither Str nor Dex, I think in practice it slightly favours Str, since Athletics is more valuable than Acrobatics. What do you think?

That's pretty much what I was thinking. My only hesitation is that it somewhat steps on the rogue's toes. It certainly fits the theme of the ability though and makes the class a little more dynamic and interesting.

Lalliman
2016-10-12, 12:33 AM
Great! Sorry for that rant on the last one, I couldn't help myself :smalltongue:

I don't think it really steps on the rogue's toes due to how situational Acrobatics is. Rogues still have their Stealth and Sleight of Hand.

Artagon
2016-10-13, 11:19 AM
What I did to make the Champion more interesting was to take away the extra attacks from the other two sub-classes in favor of more thematic abilities for them. By doing this Champion becomes the only character that achieves 4 swings per attack action.

Here's what I did in full, if you are interested:

Variant Vanilla Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502235-Variant-Vanilla-Fighter)