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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Swift Hunter - Psionic Dusk/Swiftblade hybrid and a feat for Einhander style.



Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-11, 05:29 AM
Can I ask for some feedback and/or suggestions on the class I'm currently designing and the feat?

This class is mostly intended for my new character - an Elan girl who was a human duskblade before she got converted into an Elan (she didn't ask for this).

I used a lot of other people's homebrew designs to put it together, and a help from ExLibrisMortis from these forums.
Materials used:
- The Swiftblade in 20 levels by Jarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192259-3-5-Base-Class-The-Swiftblade-in-20-levels-PEACH) - I've stolen the capstone abilities, and partially class feature progression
- Psionic Duskblade by Risada from brilliantgameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6885) - powers and power point progression, also Psionic Channeling wording (I changed it a lot, though)
- Swiftblade, Haste Personified by WoTC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

From the very beginning, even before I got interested in psionics, I really wanted to recreate the fighting style of one of my favorite anime characters - combining INT-based magic (or, in this case psionics, which fits better) and highly mobile and agile melee fighting style, relying on dodging and evasion for defense and use a rapier combined with "magic" for offense.

So, naturally I was interested in both Duskblade and Swiftblade, but it's pretty hard to build a Duskblade X/Swiftblade Y, because Duskblades don't get Haste, and stuff like that. I made a relatively successful Duskblade at our optimization level, and it was fine and cool, but it wasn't quite it. Then there came this idea of turning her into an Elan. I tried to make some psionic gish builds, but I didn't like them. Then DM suggested to just make my own class that plays like I want to, so here's my attempt.
So, here's the class (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g-e7ekvbFH8kpkZVcL8BOOVyWWMG3XVXGq-zd0CWlMA/edit?usp=sharing)(google sheets)

Next, since she uses Einhander style, which is probably the worst melee style in 3.5, I'm going to try to fix it just a little bit with this feat:

Precision Strike [General]
Prerequisites: BAB +2, DEX 15, Weapon Finesse

Benefit: When fighting with a weapon to which Weapon Finesse feat can be applied in one hand and no shield or weapon in the other hand, on your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to take a penalty on attack rolls no greater than your Base Attack Bonus. For each 2 points of penalty taken this way, you can add 1d6 to all melee damage rolls for this round. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special: A fighter may select Precision Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.

It's basically Power Attack, but with extra d6 instead of extra flat damage, so it should be a bit worse, so I doubt it would cause any problem.

nxwtypx
2016-10-12, 10:53 AM
Precision Strike as written is not worse than Power Attack.

d6 average out to 3.5 per dice. 3.5 damage / 2 penalty yields 1.75 damage per point of penalty, which puts it in between using power attack with a 1-hander (1/1) and using power attack with a 2-hander (2/1).

Granted, this may be offset by the fact that Power Attack opens doors as a prerequisite for many feats and prestige classes where Precision Strike does not, but that's a more nebulous game concern compared to the damage issue.

Edit:
Oh, crits. That might skew things slightly, especially if your character is wielding a rapier. This would be one for a simulation.

Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-12, 11:02 AM
Well, it's worse than two-handed power attack by damage, and also it has more prerequisites, is more random and damage from it is not multiplied on crit. So considering all this it's probably worse.

nxwtypx
2016-10-12, 12:27 PM
"worse than two-handed power attack by damage" is irrelevant, finesse weapons can't be used with Power Attack at all. It needs to be balanced against a one-handed power attack.

The "prerequisite" is a gimme feat for the build. That's like a Swordsage pointing to his Adaptive Style or a Druid pointing to his Wild Spell as if picking the feat up actually cost him something. I'm not convinced.
Weapon Finesse effectively lets you trade a feat for dumping Strength. You're spending a second feat to get your damage back. The closest feat I can think of that lets a low-Str finesse character become a beater again is the Shadow Blade feat from Book of Nine Swords, and that only lets you add your Dex modifier to damage with whatever your Strength is still adding or subtracting. (While requiring knowledge of a Shadow Hand stance and only active while in a Shadow Hand stance, no less.) That's worse than the scaling offered by Precision Strike.

"more random" means nothing when the more random value is higher on average than a fixed number. More often than not, a Precision Strike penalty is better than an equivalent Power Attack penalty.

Crits, on the other hand are where the dice might come in under a flat power attack, and that requires math on Armor Class. You'll certainly do better against a kobold swarm (low AC enemies) than whatever CR-appropriate dragon (high AC enemy). Many variables there, including that weird tail when all you can do is hit on a 20 and therefore close your eyes and swing for the moon.

Were it my place to fix this, I'd suggest 1d4 damage/2 points penalty? That's 2.5/2, slightly better than a one-hand power attack, but admittedly deeper (a gimme feat deeper, but okay I guess) in the feat tree for what I assume is a dead end (vs. Power Attack being a common prerequisite for things).

Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-12, 02:48 PM
I don't agree. First, using this feat automatically means that you're using inferior fighting style compared to power attack. You can't use the second weapon to get more attacks too.

Also, you don't get your damage back, because by dumping strength you reduce your damage. Even with Shadow Blade, you can't get 1.5x DEX bonus to damage, and that still requires a third feat, compared to just one for a power attacker.

Overall, Power Attack is more reliable, doesn't restrict you to the worst fighting style in the system, works with crits and a prerequisite for more feats. Not to mention existence of Leap Attack, for example.

Zaydos
2016-10-12, 02:58 PM
"worse than two-handed power attack by damage" is irrelevant, finesse weapons can't be used with Power Attack at all. It needs to be balanced against a one-handed power attack.

1 handed power attack is literally worse than useless 90% of the time without supplemental feats and items to improve your PA (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc),or having other people buff you. Couple this with 1 handed weapons being never used because of the gap compared to 2-handed PA and you've got a dominant option (2-handers) which means comparing it to 1-handed PA is completely pointless. You must compare to 2-handed PA, comparing it to 1-handed PA is comparing it to something that is a completely dominated option and never used because it is too weak, the only value in doing so is to demonstrate that it must be stronger than 1-handed PA to be remotely balanced.


The "prerequisite" is a gimme feat for the build. That's like a Swordsage pointing to his Adaptive Style or a Druid pointing to his Wild Spell as if picking the feat up actually cost him something. I'm not convinced.
Weapon Finesse effectively lets you trade a feat for dumping Strength. You're spending a second feat to get your damage back. The closest feat I can think of that lets a low-Str finesse character become a beater again is the Shadow Blade feat from Book of Nine Swords, and that only lets you add your Dex modifier to damage with whatever your Strength is still adding or subtracting. (While requiring knowledge of a Shadow Hand stance and only active while in a Shadow Hand stance, no less.) That's worse than the scaling offered by Precision Strike.

This is not true. Shadow Blade is actually better unless you have a major source of attack boosting outside of expected BAB/Dex. For example 20 Dex and Level 5. Weapon Finesse and a +1 weapon gives you a +11 to hit (with Full BAB), shadow blade gives you 1d6+6 damage (9.5) with a 15% chance of crit (10.925 against crit vulnerable enemies). Acheirai (first CR 5 in the MM) has 20 AC. Shadow blade has a 60% chance of hitting (6.555 damage per round average). This has a 60% chance of hitting for 3.5 damage (2.415 dpr with crits and misses calculated in), a 50% chance of hitting for 7 damage (4.025 dpr), or a 40% chance for 10.5 (4.83 dpr). So Shadow Blade is approximately 50% better. Throw on Str 13 (doable) and Power Attack and switch to a 2-handed finesse weapon (Spiked Chain for an example that is usable with Shadow Blade) and the feat just looks sad. Shadow Blade does need to be short sword over rapier which is a 1/23rd loss of power so it actually comes out to 6.27.

But wait what about lower AC foes, you say? Average AC at CR 5 is 17.16 (MM only, expanded sources may change this, probably upwards due to power creep). So we round down and compare against AC 17. Shadow blade is dealing 9.5 or 10.45 with crits. Rapier is dealing 3.5 or 4.025 with crits. So Shadow Blade hits on a 6, meaning 75% accuracy, or 7.8375 dpr. This also hits on a 6 for... 3.01875 dpr, or on an 8 for 4.89125 dpr, or on a 10 for 6.06375 dpr. It is strictly worse than Shadow Blade. Now the fact that it stacks with Shadow Blade could be said, but even then, it is still mathematically strictly worse than 2-handed PA, and barely even better than rapier PA (+1.3/-1 vs +1.75/-1) which is worse than Weapon Focus.


"more random" means nothing when the more random value is higher on average than a fixed number. More often than not, a Precision Strike penalty is better than an equivalent Power Attack penalty.

More often than not WF is better than any penalty on a 1-handed Power Attack (if you're dealing 10 or more damage including crits with 50% accuracy 1 handed PA adds nothing, if you're dealing 19 or more damage including crits with 95% accuracy 1 handed PA adds nothing, while it is possible to get 'I need a negative number to hit' for example balor +10 Str, +5 weapon, +20 BAB, at that point the fact that it hurts your full attacks makes it only useful on standard action attacks, Weapon Focus is mathematically better for a full attack, and Weapon Specialization is mathematically better than PA).

Also as it requires you not to have a shield and to have an empty off-hand it has the same resource requirements as wielding a 2 hander, so there is 0 reason to compare it to 1-handed PA, and it is again strictly worse than 2-handed power attack and lacks the ancillary feats, abilities, and items which buff PA to actually usable levels instead of 'take Weapon Specialization'.

Crits, on the other hand are where the dice might come in under a flat power attack, and that requires math on Armor Class. You'll certainly do better against a kobold swarm (low AC enemies) than whatever CR-appropriate dragon (high AC enemy). Many variables there, including that weird tail when all you can do is hit on a 20 and therefore close your eyes and swing for the moon.


Were it my place to fix this, I'd suggest 1d4 damage/2 points penalty? That's 2.5/2, slightly better than a one-hand power attack, but admittedly deeper (a gimme feat deeper, but okay I guess) in the feat tree for what I assume is a dead end (vs. Power Attack being a common prerequisite for things).

That's actually worse than 1 handed PA (a dominated option not used in actual play for being mathematically a penalty to use) once you take crits into account, before pointing out that it's a dead end which hurts you as well.

Haven't looked at the class yet, but just judging the feat alone I'd add a bit about not being able to also PA on the same attack (you currently can with Rapier, which is a viable option if you have Wraithstrike), and leave it as is. I'd also house rule 1-handed PA to not be completely useless (i.e. 2 for 1), but that's a different issue entirely.

Edit: And... swift huntered I guess (though on that note I would suggest not using the name Swift Hunter as it is already a feat/build for ranger/scouts reliant upon the Swift Hunter feat).

Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-12, 03:58 PM
Edit: And... swift huntered I guess (though on that note I would suggest not using the name Swift Hunter as it is already a feat/build for ranger/scouts reliant upon the Swift Hunter feat).

Well, your explanation is way better and much more detailed than I could ever do. Although, now I'm actually not sure if it's a good idea to use this feat at all :D
It's fine I guess.

As for the name - it's a work in progress. I wanted to use "swift" in the name because it is based off Swiftblade, and "hunter" because of the backstory (originally she was supposed to join the group of Elans that fight Illithids and other aberrations from the Underdark, but DM had a better idea) I might come up for a better name later.

nxwtypx
2016-10-12, 09:07 PM
1 handed power attack is literally worse than useless 90% of the time without supplemental feats and items to improve your PA (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc),or having other people buff you. Couple this with 1 handed weapons being never used because of the gap compared to 2-handed PA and you've got a dominant option (2-handers) which means comparing it to 1-handed PA is completely pointless. You must compare to 2-handed PA, comparing it to 1-handed PA is comparing it to something that is a completely dominated option and never used because it is too weak, the only value in doing so is to demonstrate that it must be stronger than 1-handed PA to be remotely balanced.



This is not true. Shadow Blade is actually better unless you have a major source of attack boosting outside of expected BAB/Dex. For example 20 Dex and Level 5. Weapon Finesse and a +1 weapon gives you a +11 to hit (with Full BAB), shadow blade gives you 1d6+6 damage (9.5) with a 15% chance of crit (10.925 against crit vulnerable enemies). Acheirai (first CR 5 in the MM) has 20 AC. Shadow blade has a 60% chance of hitting (6.555 damage per round average). This has a 60% chance of hitting for 3.5 damage (2.415 dpr with crits and misses calculated in), a 50% chance of hitting for 7 damage (4.025 dpr), or a 40% chance for 10.5 (4.83 dpr). So Shadow Blade is approximately 50% better. Throw on Str 13 (doable) and Power Attack and switch to a 2-handed finesse weapon (Spiked Chain for an example that is usable with Shadow Blade) and the feat just looks sad. Shadow Blade does need to be short sword over rapier which is a 1/23rd loss of power so it actually comes out to 6.27.

But wait what about lower AC foes, you say? Average AC at CR 5 is 17.16 (MM only, expanded sources may change this, probably upwards due to power creep). So we round down and compare against AC 17. Shadow blade is dealing 9.5 or 10.45 with crits. Rapier is dealing 3.5 or 4.025 with crits. So Shadow Blade hits on a 6, meaning 75% accuracy, or 7.8375 dpr. This also hits on a 6 for... 3.01875 dpr, or on an 8 for 4.89125 dpr, or on a 10 for 6.06375 dpr. It is strictly worse than Shadow Blade. Now the fact that it stacks with Shadow Blade could be said, but even then, it is still mathematically strictly worse than 2-handed PA, and barely even better than rapier PA (+1.3/-1 vs +1.75/-1) which is worse than Weapon Focus.



More often than not WF is better than any penalty on a 1-handed Power Attack (if you're dealing 10 or more damage including crits with 50% accuracy 1 handed PA adds nothing, if you're dealing 19 or more damage including crits with 95% accuracy 1 handed PA adds nothing, while it is possible to get 'I need a negative number to hit' for example balor +10 Str, +5 weapon, +20 BAB, at that point the fact that it hurts your full attacks makes it only useful on standard action attacks, Weapon Focus is mathematically better for a full attack, and Weapon Specialization is mathematically better than PA).

Also as it requires you not to have a shield and to have an empty off-hand it has the same resource requirements as wielding a 2 hander, so there is 0 reason to compare it to 1-handed PA, and it is again strictly worse than 2-handed power attack and lacks the ancillary feats, abilities, and items which buff PA to actually usable levels instead of 'take Weapon Specialization'.

Crits, on the other hand are where the dice might come in under a flat power attack, and that requires math on Armor Class. You'll certainly do better against a kobold swarm (low AC enemies) than whatever CR-appropriate dragon (high AC enemy). Many variables there, including that weird tail when all you can do is hit on a 20 and therefore close your eyes and swing for the moon.



That's actually worse than 1 handed PA (a dominated option not used in actual play for being mathematically a penalty to use) once you take crits into account, before pointing out that it's a dead end which hurts you as well.

Haven't looked at the class yet, but just judging the feat alone I'd add a bit about not being able to also PA on the same attack (you currently can with Rapier, which is a viable option if you have Wraithstrike), and leave it as is. I'd also house rule 1-handed PA to not be completely useless (i.e. 2 for 1), but that's a different issue entirely.

Edit: And... swift huntered I guess (though on that note I would suggest not using the name Swift Hunter as it is already a feat/build for ranger/scouts reliant upon the Swift Hunter feat).

Gotta give it to you for doing the math. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-14, 12:22 AM
Guys, I appreciate the feedback on the feat, but to be honest I'm a bit more interested in the class itself.

Should I change channeling to something like a per round free action that charges the weapon with power to make class features work better together?

What about class features? Too many? Too few? Maybe some of them come too early or too late?

How about skills? Should I keep it this way or reduce the number of points class gets or remove some of the Knowledges from the list?

Power list - is it good? What would you suggest to add/remove from it?

Should I keep the phrase "this counts towards your normal powers know limit" at the levels where class gets Physical Acceleration/Temporal Acceleration powers?

Stuff like that.

Zaydos
2016-10-14, 12:34 AM
What is your balance point?

Optimized wizard gish? What optimization level?

Duskblade? The linked Swiftblade class is significantly stronger (actually having run a short lived pbp with it, it makes warblade look pretty weak too, though the giant roaches made everybody look pretty weak because it was about one round from a tpk from cockroaches for 3 different parties).

Psychic Warrior? You have more powers, more power points, more BAB, more bonus feats, other class features, and pretty much obsolete it.

Psion? You strangely start off with better psionics than one.

Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-14, 12:44 AM
Well, I was aiming for something like Duskblade -> Swiftblade kind of build if it was possible without jumping through the hoops, but mostly along the lines of a mildly optimized Swiftblade gish, I guess.

What would you suggest to change?

EDIT: To elaborate a bit, I picked power point progression straight from the psionic adaptation of Duskblade I linked at the beginning at this thread. I don't want to give PsyWar's progression, because this class is expected to use its channeling ability which would drain PP pretty fast.

I tried to not step on PsyWars territorry too much by restricting amount of self-buffing going on. Maybe I've got carried away a bit. As for bonus feats - this class only gets Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack and no bonus feats you can choose from. There is Swiftblades class features, though.

Also, I intend to use it for a high-DEX character fighting with just a rapier and no shield which probably would reduce the combat effectiveness quite a bit. I didn't want to lock the class in that particular fighting style, but I guess it would be more balanced if I did.

So, once again, looking for feedback and suggestions how to improve it.

Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-17, 02:10 AM
Guys? No suggestions at all? It's my first attempt to put together a base class, so I'm really looking for feedback and suggestions how to fix it.

Zaydos
2016-10-17, 08:35 PM
First things first. Is this made for a certain game? It sounds like it, and what level is that game matters. I mean if you're starting as a 10th level Swift Hunter it doesn't matter if its OP at 1-3, you're 10th level. If you're starting at 1st level the power level at 20th isn't very important, it's the 1st level abilities which matter most.

If you want it to be general use (i.e. not just the one game), you can't approach from the mindset of well I'm planning a subpar combat route so the class needs to be stronger. And I will note optimized wizard-gish is typically stronger than psywar (and Duskblade into Swiftblade without hoops is a lot stronger than straight Duskblade or Duskblade + normal PrCs).

But since it seems like the former, what level range should be the focus?

Kuu Lightwing
2016-10-18, 12:20 AM
First things first. Is this made for a certain game? It sounds like it, and what level is that game matters. I mean if you're starting as a 10th level Swift Hunter it doesn't matter if its OP at 1-3, you're 10th level. If you're starting at 1st level the power level at 20th isn't very important, it's the 1st level abilities which matter most.

If you want it to be general use (i.e. not just the one game), you can't approach from the mindset of well I'm planning a subpar combat route so the class needs to be stronger. And I will note optimized wizard-gish is typically stronger than psywar (and Duskblade into Swiftblade without hoops is a lot stronger than straight Duskblade or Duskblade + normal PrCs).

But since it seems like the former, what level range should be the focus?

Well, I mostly plan to use it for one character starting at level 8 and ending who knows when. First quest would probably last until level 10-12 and I have no idea what comes next. But on the other hand, I do wish to make it a bit more than that to be able to use it later, if I want to.

I mentioned the subpar combat style because even if I make a different character using this class, I would probably still use that combat style for fluff reasons, so to balance it a bit mechanically, it could be locked in this combat style and apply most of its benefits only in light armor and while wielding a weapon in one hand and no weapon or shield in the other hand.

Originally I was planning for Tier 3 (probably higher part of it), and for now I don't think it reaches Tier 2 anyways - since most of its abilities are related to combat - damage and minor CC, combat mobility and evasion.