Power players are killing the game [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Arm of God

2016-10-11, 11:32 AM

Toadkiller

2016-10-11, 11:38 AM

Get a DM that will enforce either open rolling on the table, point buy or (even better in my opinion) standard array. This is part of the DM's job.

Mellack

2016-10-11, 11:41 AM

Don't use rolled stats. Use point buy or an array. That way everyone starts out equal.

Dalebert

2016-10-11, 11:43 AM

Rolled stats are evil. Use point buy all the time. IF you insist on allowing rolled stats, make people roll with a witness at the table and make sure they're rolling ONE time and one time only. If you get to just reroll when you don't like your stats, odds get really good that you'll end up with way better stats.

JakOfAllTirades

2016-10-11, 11:45 AM

Or insist that he rolls his stats on real dice on the table where everyone can see them.

All the other players should do the same of course, out of fairness.

Or just switch to point buy.

Slipperychicken

2016-10-11, 11:46 AM

If I was GMing, I'd tell that player this:

"We are not rolling for stats, use the standard array instead."
OR
"You can choose to roll, but if you do then you will roll ONCE AND ONLY ONCE at the table, using my dice, where I can see them, with the whole group as witness. Just like you might take a good roll, there will be no take-backs if you get a bad roll. You will roll once using the method described in the book and you must take the result, however low, high, or average it might be."

And then if he insists on acting like a baby (which it looks like he has been), I'd tell him that he can either play by the rules, or he will not play in games run by me.

Keltest

2016-10-11, 11:47 AM

Sounds to me like this has everything to do with a potentially cheating player, rather than a "power player". Only the DM has any reason to keep dive rolls secret from the rest of the table.

Arm of God

2016-10-11, 11:51 AM

It looks like point buy is the favored decision. I'll talk with my DM next time the guy decides to make another character.

odigity

2016-10-11, 01:44 PM

You should use point-buy to solve the balance issue, not to take away an opportunity for cheating.

If you actually believe one of your players is capable of cheating, make it a priority to catch them in the act (you can even *create* opportunities for them to cheat to speed things along). Then kick them out.

I can't stand cheaters. How pathetic do you have to be to lie to friends to feel better than them when there's not even money on the table?

Specter

2016-10-11, 01:49 PM

Grod_The_Giant

2016-10-11, 02:11 PM

Every time we complain about his character having godlike stats he gets defensive, saying that he "rolled" for them and everyone has their chance. This alone is annoying, but his high stats remove most of the challenge and personal growth in the game, causing him to get bored and make a new chracater every month. How do we deal with his "power playing" problems?
Do they, though? Do they really? I'm not trying to defend what sounds like cheating behavior, but... I think you might be exaggerating the impact of his high stats a bit. 5e is incredibly swingy; the number you roll on the d20 can and will overshadow any bonus written down on your sheet, barring a few things like Pass Without Trace and sometimes Expertise-- and stats are still only half of that.. A +4 vs a +3 is a 5% bonus. An 18 AC vs a 16 AC means you'll get hit 10% less often-- it's maybe a once-per-fight event that the higher bonus matters. Now, eventually he can wind up with a feat advantage, because feats are generally better than ASIs, but that's more of a long-term thing, and can be obscured if Variant Humans are on the table, and also depends heavily on what feats he picks. Is he really dominating gameplay because he has a +1 here or there over the other players?

JAL_1138

2016-10-11, 02:30 PM

This case sounds less a balance issue and more like a "probably cheating" issue to me.

CantigThimble

2016-10-11, 02:36 PM

We have something similar in our game with a monk with god stats. He had 20 Wis and Dex by level 8, he even got an amulet of health to boost his con to 19 and is one of the most powerful and versatile characters in the party. No one minds, though. The attitude is less "Why does he have better AC and damage than I do?" and more "Dear god we're all going to die if someone doesn't save us, maybe he can." It's a team game, and I think it's fine for some members to be stronger than others because it's cooperation, not competition. If you don't like that idea, then you probably shouldn't be rolling stats.

However, this was done with stats rolled in front of the DM. It sounds like you might have an entirely different problem based on what you have told us about how he rolled his stats.

MBControl

2016-10-11, 02:45 PM

Point buy or array is the right way to go, but personally I would love to make him open roll, and just watch him boil as he is forced to take each average or bad roll.

JAL_1138

2016-10-11, 02:53 PM

I also wonder how often he cheats in-game with that app, if he also uses it in-game instead of just at char-gen. If he does, make him use some real dice instead and roll where others can see it in play. Even if he's still using the high-stat character for the moment, his effectiveness should drop dramatically.

Tanarii

2016-10-11, 03:06 PM

RSP

2016-10-11, 03:09 PM

Yeah rolling stats vs point buy can mess with balance a bit. The first 5e session I DM'd ran into this. One character rolled well, the rest rolled closer to point buy scores. The result was a level 1 Monk with maxed Dex (18 roll plus 2 for Wood Elf) and 16 Wis. Didn't have anything to do with power gaming or cheating but it's a noticible difference when at level 1 you're 10% better than everyone else both in attacking and with defense, and more importantly, your min damage auto kills most opponents in 1 shot. This was compounded at lvl 4 when they picked up a feat. Now the character was still more effective than everyone else and they have cool neat tricks that others don't have.

At our table it wasn't a problem as we all get along and are more RP-oriented anyway, but it was a noticible difference in character effectiveness.

Since then we've just done point buy and it definitely feels more balanced.

Biggstick

2016-10-11, 03:17 PM

You gave him a choice to roll stats and now you're mad about it? Wow.

You have two options, either be authoritative and make everyone redo their stats for point buy/standard, or leave it as it is. Either way, don't let other players feel bad.

Aside from the negative way you're trying to portray both sides, Specter is mostly right about how to go forward. All characters created should be either done through point buy, standard array, or rolled in front of at least one other member of the group (preferably the DM/GM).

Do they, though? Do they really? I'm not trying to defend what sounds like cheating behavior, but... I think you might be exaggerating the impact of his high stats a bit. 5e is incredibly swingy; the number you roll on the d20 can and will overshadow any bonus written down on your sheet, barring a few things like Pass Without Trace and sometimes Expertise-- and stats are still only half of that.. A +4 vs a +3 is a 5% bonus. An 18 AC vs a 16 AC means you'll get hit 10% less often-- it's maybe a once-per-fight event that the higher bonus matters. Now, eventually he can wind up with a feat advantage, because feats are generally better than ASIs, but that's more of a long-term thing, and can be obscured if Variant Humans are on the table, and also depends heavily on what feats he picks. Is he really dominating gameplay because he has a +1 here or there over the other players?

I think you're emphasizing the wrong part of the quote Grod.

Our 5e campaign consists of six players. With a bit of conflict here and there, we mosty get along, but there's one player that causes conflict and controversy more than others. He has a tendency to "roll" high stats using a private stat roller on his phone, giving himself multiple 18's and great stats at level one. Classes like the monk, where he gets to add his wisdom mod to his AC, benefit from this greatly by having 18 AC from the start. That's like having plate mail.

Every time we complain about his character having godlike stats he gets defensive, saying that he "rolled" for them and everyone has their chance. This alone is annoying, but his high stats remove most of the challenge and personal growth in the game, causing him to get bored and make a new chracater every month. How do we deal with his "power playing" problems?

This is the real problem. Because the player in the OP's game manages to somehow always bring amazingly high statted characters to the table, that player doesn't have any more growth left. This might be a bit of an assumption on my part, but that player is also one that probably heavily pushes for their own advancement of power rather then the party's every time s/he brings in a new PC. This constant selfish drive from a player can bring about resentment from the party, as that PC tends to only care about improving one's self mechanically and less for the story.

And that brings me to the point. While bringing in a new character because of a conflict within the party does happen, it's something that shouldn't be happening every month. Telling a great story happens with a consistent group of PC's. It sounds like the OP is like me in that they don't want to constantly get attached to a player's new PC only to have them inexplicably leave a month later after having taken a good part of the loot gained over part of the adventure that it was a part of for no reason other then I'm bored of the character.

mephnick

2016-10-11, 03:21 PM

In terms of rolling for stats (though I don't think this is actually the problem), allow all players to roll an array and let them all vote which array to use.

Maybe someone will 3 17's, but everyone will have it. Balancing for higher stats is the easiest thing a DM can do.

Tanarii

2016-10-11, 03:27 PM

One thing I've found is that if you're going to roll, players really need to follow the PHB steps for character generation. You're supposed to choose race & class before rolling for stats.

It doesn't matter for standard array (or the variant point buy), but it stops the high stats --> Wood Elf Monk kind of thing.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-10-11, 03:38 PM

This is the real problem. Because the player in the OP's game manages to somehow always bring amazingly high statted characters to the table, that player doesn't have any more growth left. This might be a bit of an assumption on my part, but that player is also one that probably heavily pushes for their own advancement of power rather then the party's every time s/he brings in a new PC. This constant selfish drive from a player can bring about resentment from the party, as that PC tends to only care about improving one's self mechanically and less for the story.

And that brings me to the point. While bringing in a new character because of a conflict within the party does happen, it's something that shouldn't be happening every month. Telling a great story happens with a consistent group of PC's. It sounds like the OP is like me in that they don't want to constantly get attached to a player's new PC only to have them inexplicably leave a month later after having taken a good part of the loot gained over part of the adventure that it was a part of for no reason other then I'm bored of the character.
Missed that-- constant character turnover is certainly a sign of something going wrong, usually mechanical discontent on the part of the player. And constant good stat rolls are certainly a sign of cheating. But that's a problem unrelated to "high stats." Ability scores and their increases are the single most boring part of a character's progression-- I can't see how good starting rolls somehow stifle growth. What you're looking forward to is new class abilities and maybe some feats, not a slightly higher Wisdom bonus.

tl;dr: "High stats" aren't actually a thing to be worried about. Cheating and constant character turnover is.

One thing I've found is that if you're going to roll, players really need to follow the PHB steps for character generation. You're supposed to choose race & class before rolling for stats.

It doesn't matter for standard array (or the variant point buy), but it stops the high stats --> Wood Elf Monk kind of thing.
This seems likely to just lead to miserable situations where you wanted to be a Wizard but rolled crap Intelligence.

Temperjoke

2016-10-11, 03:42 PM

This seems likely to just lead to miserable situations where you wanted to be a Wizard but rolled crap Intelligence.

Well, the book doesn't specify that your rolls have to be in order, just that you decide race and class first before you roll. You can assign what you get to whichever. If all your rolls are bad, that might be a different situation.

Âmesang

2016-10-11, 03:46 PM

Dare him to roll 3d6 in order. :smallamused:

Tanarii

2016-10-11, 03:56 PM

This seems likely to just lead to miserable situations where you wanted to be a Wizard but rolled crap Intelligence.D&D 5e Rolled Stats aren't in order. You can put them in any order you want.

Edit: My point was certain classes are DAD (Dual-attribute dependent). Others are SAD. DAD tend to get more out of high rolls, but suffer more from low rolls. Choosing before you roll and know what you've got to work with makes it more of a crap shoot, but also means that people that roll high won't beeline for DAD classes to take advantage of it.

Similarly, choosing race before you roll makes standard Humans considerably more useful.

Hrugner

2016-10-11, 04:11 PM

I'm one of those people that always roll high on stats when stats are rolled. Switching to roll20 so that it was all public and couldn't be cheated was a huge benefit for me as the suspicion I was cheating was certainly there no matter what I did. If you don't want to do point buy or array stats, I recommend switching to something like roll20 for stat rolling so everyone can see what was rolled.

Character turn over is a bit weird as well. A character who doesn't work with the game should leave, and if they meet their personal victory conditions, they should retire. If this is happening an awful lot, examine whether it's a problem with the player, or if it's a problem with the DM hoping the characters will want to do whatever is put in front of them. I recently played in a game where the DM had two major powers manipulating the characters to antagonize the other and start a war. He was surprised a bit when all the players abandoned the story and retired to continue their back story. So I certainly can see how a player who doesn't make default characters could end up needing to leave default stories.

Fortunately our DM is awesome, understood what was happening and allowed for us ducking out of the manipulations. If all the players hadn't been on board with this, the party would have split and someone would have retired.

INDYSTAR188

2016-10-11, 04:18 PM

I read the OP too quickly and thought initially he was speaking about physically rolling dice and getting amazing ability scores every time. After reading through the comments I realize he is describing the character rolling online, which should have a much more 'average' output I would expect.

Anecdotally though, I have a friend who has a set of sparkly-gold d6's; these dice are on fire - we all use them (and rolled in front of each other) when we DO have a game that rolls stats. In general I prefer standard array/point buy. It's pretty easy for me as the DM to change the standard array if I want a 'power game' type of feel or crank it back a touch if I want something more 'gritty'.

I don't know how much stats really matter overall; I think rather there's just a feeling of injustice that this dude is probably cheating while everyone else is just playing a cooperative game. I think players that start out as Variant Human and grab a feat probably have a better advantage (in certain situations) than folks with high primary stats.

Sigreid

2016-10-11, 04:41 PM

So I'm just going to chime in here that it's possible he's not intentionally cheating. The dice roller he's using may be poorly programmed and lean high. In which case he should not be allowed to use it for anything.

dropbear8mybaby

2016-10-11, 05:15 PM

Two problems:

1) You're rolling stats. Stop it. It's stupid and you get what you deserve when you do it.

2) Power players expose the inadequacies in a system, allowing for tinkerers like myself to come in and think we know what we're doing when we try to fix it.

Number two isn't a bad thing and it eventually leads to a better balanced system, especially if WotC listens to all the feedback it's getting. A better balanced system in turn limits how much disparity there is between a power build and "whatever, I'll make a fighter with a high intelligence and low strength, dex, con because ROLEPLAY LAHAHDE DAH I'M AWESOME STATS DON'T MATTER UNTIL SOMEONE MAKES A CHARACTER BETTER THAN MINE AND I COMPLAIN HAHA!"

So, you know, it dumb-proofs a system.

Tanarii

2016-10-11, 06:01 PM

1) You're rolling stats. Stop it. It's stupid and you get what you deserve when you do it.Rolling is one of the two rules for Stats. The other is Standard Array. If you think it's stupid, guess what ... they built in a alternative as a default for people like you.

AbyssStalker

2016-10-11, 08:29 PM

Unless you are playing in a campaign designed with Standard Array in mind (balance wise) or playing with munchkins roll-stats should be fine most of the time, but I'm not sure I could trust a suspiciously high stat character if it was rolled in private.

Although I don't like rolls that aren't using physical dice, but that's just a personal preference and wariness of incorrect coding.

beargryllz

2016-10-11, 08:52 PM

15 14 13 12 10 8

Do this every time if you want a balanced game

DracoKnight

2016-10-11, 08:55 PM

Stat generation method that I've found is slightly more forgiving and allows for mostly the same range as the PHB's method for rolling is 2d6+6. Possible to get high stats, and the lowest you'll get is an 8, but overall delivers pretty average stats. If he wants to roll, this would be a method the DM could make him use.

poolio

2016-10-11, 09:50 PM

I would have to agree with the majority here, i usually roll really high on stats when we use them, witnesses and real dice at the table, i even had an op monk as described, got an item that added cha to ac as well, that with a few magic things such as rings and bracers ended up getting a 23 ac lol

But if given the choice to start a new game rolling stats or going with the book standard stats, I'll vote for the standard, i like the more even starting ground,

If everyone else is cool with that then he can't really object to having to use them himself.

2D8HP

2016-10-11, 10:03 PM

Dare him to roll 3d6 in order. :smallamused:Last time I rolled 3d6 in order (this year in fact!) my PC had low stats (less then 10) in everything except Dexterity, so of course I played a Thief.
The character was awesomely fun to play.
When the OP wrote:
his high stats remove most of the challenge and personal growth in the game, causing him to get bored and make a new chracater every month.I'm reminded of why we start at first level, because getting to second level is the most fun "level up" of all!
"Winning" D&D with high stats "rolled from a phone" doesn't sound fun for that or any of the other players at the table.
3d6 in order or point buy.

BillyBobShorton

2016-10-11, 10:05 PM

Malifice

2016-10-12, 01:46 AM

Its not his fault, it's your DMs fault.

Use point buy, and/or all rolls in the open.

If he sooks, he can find another table.

CaptainSarathai

2016-10-12, 05:46 AM

Curious how every player at the table and here on the forums can see through the BS and knows points buy fixes the issue, but the table DM is just like,

"oh. Three 18's, a 17, a 16, and oohhh..... tough break on that 13, pal. I'd say this is obviously a fake character but no way would someone intentionally give themselves a 13. Gonna be a challenge role playing that bum charisma with this guy nobody saw you roll up, so I'll allow this. Let's play.... oh wait, what was your character's name again? "EYE LIE ABOUT DIE?" Ok, cool. So, last we left you guys were...."

Its not his fault, it's your DMs fault.

Use point buy, and/or all rolls in the open.

If he sooks, he can find another table.

It's not the DM's fault though. If he wants people rolling up their characters, that's okay. The rolls come off a bit strange, but average is average, and average says you get a string of 11s, actually. You are [I]guaranteed[/B] better characters with an Array.
When I played 5e, we used to roll 3d6 "straight down" stats for the pure cathartic joy of it. It was also a challenge to "make something" out of Str9, Dex12, Con18, Int14, Wis11, Cha6.

The problem isn't the DM allowing rolled stats (although I agree that Array is better), it's that this kid is pretty obviously just garbage, and a cheat, and needs to be dealt with directly.

And don't call him a "power gamer." I come from a wargaming background where that word gets thrown around a lot to badmouth optimizers and the same claims are made: that we ruin games. Usually though, people are talking about people who are poor sports, and who cheat. There's a huge difference.
I'm at a table with a lot of newbies right now, and I've optimized my character - not because I want to win every possible junk-measuring-contest, but because I rarely get to play a character and wanted to see how my build would fare. And if doesn't cause any trouble at all. The DM knows how to shut me down, and the other players are glad when I take the restraints off and break out the big guns.

odigity

2016-10-12, 07:20 AM

I'm at a table with a lot of newbies right now, and I've optimized my character - not because I want to win every possible junk-measuring-contest, but because I rarely get to play a character and wanted to see how my build would fare.

No one should have to apologize for optimizing. It's a Role Playing Game, not Role Playing Experience. Matching your wits against a shared, documented ruleset is part of the challenge and fun. And how are noobs supposed to learn right if you don't demonstrate what awesome looks like?

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 07:32 AM

It's not the DM's fault though.

<snip>

The problem isn't the DM allowing rolled stats (although I agree that Array is better), it's that this kid is pretty obviously just garbage, and a cheat, and needs to be dealt with directly.
the point being made wasn't that rolling is the DM's fault. It was allowing cheating by allowing secret rolling on a phone is the DM's fault.

gkathellar

2016-10-12, 07:43 AM

Do they, though? Do they really? I'm not trying to defend what sounds like cheating behavior, but... I think you might be exaggerating the impact of his high stats a bit. 5e is incredibly swingy; the number you roll on the d20 can and will overshadow any bonus written down on your sheet, barring a few things like Pass Without Trace and sometimes Expertise-- and stats are still only half of that.. A +4 vs a +3 is a 5% bonus. An 18 AC vs a 16 AC means you'll get hit 10% less often-- it's maybe a once-per-fight event that the higher bonus matters. Now, eventually he can wind up with a feat advantage, because feats are generally better than ASIs, but that's more of a long-term thing, and can be obscured if Variant Humans are on the table, and also depends heavily on what feats he picks. Is he really dominating gameplay because he has a +1 here or there over the other players?

Over time, the effects of a 5%-10% increase in stats becomes quite noticeable. While d20 games are super swingy in general, that just means that you tend to have odds of success closer to the middle range, rather than being high or low as in other systems. Boosting a 60% success rate to 70% is arguably more significant than boosting it from 80% to 90%, as in a less swingy game.

BillyBobShorton

2016-10-12, 07:47 AM

It's not the DM's fault though. If he wants people rolling up their characters, that's okay. The rolls come off a bit strange, but average is average, and average says you get a string of 11s, actually. You are [I]guaranteed[/B] better characters with an Array.
When I played 5e, we used to roll 3d6 "straight down" stats for the pure cathartic joy of it. It was also a challenge to "make something" out of Str9, Dex12, Con18, Int14, Wis11, Cha6.

The problem isn't the DM allowing rolled stats (although I agree that Array is better), it's that this kid is pretty obviously just garbage, and a cheat, and needs to be dealt with directly.

And don't call him a "power gamer." I come from a wargaming background where that word gets thrown around a lot to badmouth optimizers and the same claims are made: that we ruin games. Usually though, people are talking about people who are poor sports, and who cheat. There's a huge difference.
I'm at a table with a lot of newbies right now, and I've optimized my character - not because I want to win every possible junk-measuring-contest, but because I rarely get to play a character and wanted to see how my build would fare. And if doesn't cause any trouble at all. The DM knows how to shut me down, and the other players are glad when I take the restraints off and break out the big guns.

I respectfully disagree. DM runs the game
Other players aren't happy. 1 player seems to be cheating and almost flaunting it. ENTIRELY DM's fault. Who else's?

If he allows rolled up characters into his game, it's his call, yes. But through that allowance, it has created this situation and he has not rectified it. Maybe he's a nice guy and you want to defend him, but he still runs the game and is to blame for unchecked table douchebaggery. And worse is that he would even NEED other players to bring it up. If he doesn't se the painfully obvious, then....

I think a DM allowing unseen phone-generated characters to be used by a seemingly shady dudes riding the wave of awesome-sauce that they fabricated in their heads and kind of flaunting it to the dismay of the rest of the table is a DM who needs to understand that there is more to te game than rules memorization. You have to deal with PPL.

My really, only, lone complaint about 5e as a whole is that they do not address dealing with players as human beings very well, if at all. Read the 2e DMG &PHB. They clearly understood table and ppl issues back then, that D&D is not Monopoly and that despite the fact that it is a game, it is a lot more personal and personable than an average game, even if the rules were a jumbled, unfinished/unpolished product at that point.

Points buy is a great fix though. While I like the fun of "rolling up" a character, it does present the issue of really strong and really weak PC's. Averages are irrelevant. Has anyone ever played a character with all 11's? Ever? Starting everyone out with equal strengths and weaknesses to work with forces more development and a sense of goals to strive towards. A guy who doesn't need ASI's becomes a level 6 human variant fighter (archetype) rocking 3 feats and stats for days... from there he gets more HP and dominates. Meanwhile the others are left with the slower build process only starting scratch the surface of the potential of their builds.

Sure, THEY still get the thrill of chasing their goal, but at the same time, are along side of someone who already has a nearly finished product, probably due to his bullsh*t and the DM allowing it. To each their own, and DM rule is final, but the first rule of being a DM is to make sure everyone is having fun-something many overlook these days, sadly. If he is not doing THAT, then the rest of his rules and rulings only highlight that oversight in the player's eyes and it becomes an elephant in the room.

Having all start out equally and becoming badass through their ingenuity and use of synergies to build epic PC's brings the table together, learning how to play off eachother's strengths & weaknesses. When one guy enters the bicycle race team with a Camaro, well... it sucks, and the racing official needs to fix it. Just my opinion.

Regitnui

2016-10-12, 07:54 AM

I had both newbies and experienced players at the table. First thing I told them when building characters (after the lore, of course. Roles are important) was to use the standard ability array. Right now, we're level 3; every player is roughly equal, barring the sorcerer's horrid luck when rolling. The monk is fast and hits often, the cleric is hard to hit but doesn't do much damage, the sorcerer and warlock both destroy enemies at range, and the fighter crushes anything before him. Nobody feels completely overshadowed, because they all have their niche.

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 07:56 AM

My really, only, lone complaint about 5e as a whole is that they do not address dealing with players as human beings very well, if at all. Read the 2e DMG &PHB. They clearly understood table and ppl issues back then, that D&D is not Monopoly and that despite the fact that it is a game, it is a lot more personal and personable than an average game, even if the rules were a jumbled, unfinished/unpolished product at that point. The introduction of the DMG consists of three things: what a DM is, how to use the DMG, and knowing your players.

They addressed it right out the door. It's just that DM skip the intro of the DMG, the same way almost all players skip the intro to the PHB. Or just don't own it.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-10-12, 08:14 AM

Over time, the effects of a 5%-10% increase in stats becomes quite noticeable. While d20 games are super swingy in general, that just means that you tend to have odds of success closer to the middle range, rather than being high or low as in other systems. Boosting a 60% success rate to 70% is arguably more significant than boosting it from 80% to 90%, as in a less swingy game.
I strongly disagree. Humans are generally really bad at spotting statistical effects like that, especially when they're spread out over hours or weeks of gameplay. Even more than that, there are so many things that have so much greater effect on character performance-- build choices, tactical decisions, sheer luck-- that you'll never see the difference. I played in a group that all used the standard array, and some characters performed much, much better than others. I'm running a group that rolled stats, and-- guess what?-- the fighter who rolled 17/17/18 for physical stats still manages to be less useful than the Rogue with I think 16/14/9.

And the downside of point-buy is uniformity. After building my third pre-gen with a 16 in my main stat, a 14 in Con, and an 8 in (Str, Int, and/or Cha) I was so sick and tired of it that I left all the rest blank and switched to rolling stats. At least that way there's some variety.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 08:21 AM

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 08:35 AM

On top of that, the 2e DMG gave *bad* advice for dealing with players. If you say so. I was still young and not as obsessed then ... I skipped the intro. :smallwink:

My favorite is the advice on dealing with high and low stats:Partial quote to save space, but those sound absolutely terrible. Better to use a rolling method suited to your game in the first place.

If you care about balance, use standard array.

If you want your players to optimize, point buy! (IMO PB is terrible for balance. That's why optimizer so love it. They can squeeze out advantages from it. It is internally balanced against the party. Just not as well against the rest of the rules.) (<--Edit: I'm comparing PB and standard array here. Obviously PB is more balanced against the rest of the rules than rolling.)

If you care about the challenge of playing whatever you roll, roll. Although it's important to note that on average, rolling produces slightly better stats than standard array.

If you want to challenge yourself with a surprise character, house-rule and roll in order!

If you want to challenge yourself with low stats, house rule and give yourself a lower stat than normal!

(I'm assuming DM & player cooperate on this.)

Socratov

2016-10-12, 08:42 AM

Personally I enjoy the level playing field of pointbuy (though with a tiny bump in points but then again I'm drawn to high power games starting with an extra feat and whatnot for a total of 3-4 pc's) since it gives people equal chances. You can divide your stats more evenly or go 15/15/15/8/8/8 for a highly specialist pc.

AS for fun, cheating is not fun, being a side character to someone else's main character in the game is not exactly fun (unless previously established as a concept). Sure, some people will have more options or stronger characters based on optimisation lvl and choice of class (as well as proficiency in playing said class). But with the inherent martial vs. caster divide there is exactly no need to create even greater gaps between players.

Longes

2016-10-12, 08:44 AM

Last time I rolled 3d6 in order (this year in fact!) my PC had low stats (less then 10) in everything except Dexterity, so of course I played a Thief.
The character was awesomely fun to play.

So you got a character who looked exactly like he would if you were to do an optimized point-buy, except a bit suckier? I'm amazed that people in 2016 still claim that attribute rolling in anything more long term than Paranoia is "interesting" and "produces characters with meaningful flaws".

smcmike

2016-10-12, 08:49 AM

D&D 5e Rolled Stats aren't in order. You can put them in any order you want.

Edit: My point was certain classes are DAD (Dual-attribute dependent). Others are SAD. DAD tend to get more out of high rolls, but suffer more from low rolls. Choosing before you roll and know what you've got to work with makes it more of a crap shoot, but also means that people that roll high won't beeline for DAD classes to take advantage of it.

Similarly, choosing race before you roll makes standard Humans considerably more useful.

Meh. I don't think this is the right solution. I like rolled stats, and prefer to choose race/class based upon those stats. Yes, you get superhero monks sometimes, but that's ok with me. Really, picking race/class after rolling lets you adjust your power level after seeing what you rolled - if you roll crazy stats, you are more free to pick a suboptimal build to make up for them, and if you roll stinky stats, you can be a Druid or whatever.

jaappleton

2016-10-12, 08:55 AM

This isn't power gaming.

That's straight up cheating.

Very big difference.

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 09:02 AM

Meh. I don't think this is the right solution. I like rolled stats, and prefer to choose race/class based upon those stats. Yes, you get superhero monks sometimes, but that's ok with me. Really, picking race/class after rolling lets you adjust your power level after seeing what you rolled - if you roll crazy stats, you are more free to pick a suboptimal build to make up for them, and if you roll stinky stats, you can be a Druid or whatever.thats exactly why I like the PHB method of pick race/class first then roll. Because I don't like adjusting the power level after the fact. Because they will inevitably try to optimize the hell out of the stats rolled ... Either taking huge advantage of very high stats, or trying to totally negate low stats.

If that's what players want, they probably just don't really want to roll. Just use standard array instead. Assuming it's an option.

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 09:42 AM

thats exactly why I like the PHB method of pick race/class first then roll.

I don't think that's a 'rule'. Meaning, that if you roll stats first and then decide your race/class afterward that this is then not a legal character and is not allowed in organised play! It's just the order in which the chapters are written (they must be in some order or other!), not an instruction about order of operations!

Me: Hey DM, I think I want my next PC to have the Soldier background; I like the idea of having a cool uniform and being an officer. It doesn't matter what class or race I play because I've thought of a cool Spec Ops unit called the Avant Guard, where magic and skills go hand-in-hand with weaponry. What do you think?

DM: I'm sorry; that's not a legal PC.

Me: What? What's wrong? Won't you let me create this Spec Ops unit?

DM: Oh, I'm totally okay with that! It's a cool idea; I think I'll use it myself.

Me: So....what's wrong? Why isn't my PC legal?

DM: Because you chose your background before you picked your race, class and stats. You have to do them in order.

Me:....*has DM committed to an institution for the terminally bewildered*

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 09:50 AM

I don't think that's a 'rule'. Meaning, that if you roll stats first and then decide your race/class afterward that this is then not a legal character and is not allowed in organised play! It's just the order in which the chapters are written (they must be in some order or other!), not an instruction about order of operations!
AL uses point buy, so order of operations isn't important.

But I don't think the order of operations is accidental. I ink it's intentional that you choose your character & race, then determine stats. However, I think it's probably accidental that 'determine stats' happens to then include rolling for them and putting them in order. (Edit: to be clear, I think it comes after picking race/class because it's after you know those you want to determine where to place your stats. But that rolling happens to go hand in hand with that under the umbrella 'determine stats')

One reason I called it a 'method'. I don't really think it's a 'rule' either. :smallcool: I just like to point it out because people so frequently don't do it that way around, and I think it's superior (as a DM) for players rolling stats to do it that way around.

smcmike

2016-10-12, 09:59 AM

AL uses point buy, so order of operations isn't important.

But I don't think the order of operations is accidental. I ink it's intentional that you choose your character & race, then determine stats. However, I think it's probably accidental that 'determine stats' happens to then include rolling for them and putting them in order. (Edit: to be clear, I think it comes after picking race/class because it's after you know those you want to determine where to place your stats. But that rolling happens to go hand in hand with that under the umbrella 'determine stats')

One reason I called it a 'method'. I don't really think it's a 'rule' either. :smallcool: I just like to point it out because people so frequently don't do it that way around, and I think it's superior (as a DM) for players rolling stats to do it that way around.

Player: heck yeah, I want to make an awesome tank of a barbarian. He'll be a hill dwarf, for even more hit points.

Rolls: 13, 10*5.

Um....

Versus:

Rolls: 13, 10*5

Player: hmm, I wanted to make a tough dwarfy character. These stats are rough, but they will work for a moon Druid, and hill dwarf works with that.

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 10:04 AM

Your argument is just furthering my view that you should choose first and then roll if you want randomness, and use standard array if you know exactly what you want in advance.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 10:12 AM

It's just the order in which the chapters are written (they must be in some order or other!), not an instruction about order of operations!

Unimportant nit pick:

This doesn't come from the order of chapters. It comes from the Chapter 1 and the instructions on how to make a character.

Step by step character creation instructions starting on page 11.

Step 1: Pick Race.
Step 2: Pick Class.
Step 3: Determine Stats (normal rule, roll for stats. Variant rules, point buy or array).
Step 4: Describe your character (Background, personality, looks, alignment, etc. Explain how ability scores affects looks and personality)
Step 5: Get Equipment.
Step 6: Come Together with party and explain if and how your character knows their team mates.

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 10:19 AM

I recently DMed STK for four PCs, and the first session was all about character creation.

The very first game mechanic thing we did was roll four sets of 4d6k3, in order.

Then, as a group, we looked at what we rolled and decided what to do with each set, knowing we have to end up with a reasonably balanced party.

The only change allowed to the order of those stats was to choose any two from a set and swap those two. This way you had some control (you could make sure the best roll was where you wanted or your worst was in your desired dump stat) but you could end up with things you would probably never choose, like strong wizards or smart barbarians.

The point was to end up with a viable party which still had realistic arrays. It worked brilliantly. For example, the concept for a swashbuckler rogue with great Dex and good Int/Cha, dumping Str is easily do-able in point-buy, and if you can arrange your six rolls how you like then Str will be your dump stat. As it turned out, in order to get Dex as the best score, Str had to remain 14 and Int had to remain 10. This meant that the original concept had to be tweaked, and the creativity that was required turned out to be much less generic and much more satisfying than if you could just churn out 'swashbuckler #23'.

But this is all a tangent to the OP. It's not really 'rolling stats' that is the issue; it's that the stat rolling is not being done in front of the DM. This is such a basic requirement for stat-rolling that I'm astonished that the DM allows some guy to rock up with stats rolled in secret, but not surprised at all that the resulting PCs cause trouble!

Solution: no PC is legal for the campaign unless the stats are rolled in front of the DM.

Problem solved.

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 10:21 AM

Unimportant nit pick:

This doesn't come from the order of chapters. It comes from the Chapter 1 and the instructions on how to make a character.

Step by step character creation instructions starting on page 11.

Step 1: Pick Race.
Step 2: Pick Class.
Step 3: Determine Stats (normal rule, roll for stats. Variant rules, point buy or array).
Step 4: Describe your character (Background, personality, looks, alignment, etc. Explain how ability scores affects looks and personality)
Step 5: Get Equipment.
Step 6: Come Together with party and explain if and how your character knows their team mates.

And if a player decides what background to be before he does anything else, is the resulting PC not legal?

Segev

2016-10-12, 10:22 AM

Rolled stats don't work unless they're done in front of the DM.

Otherwise you end up with characters whose stats look like the ones 'rolled' in forum posts asking for help. It's amazing how often people just happen to roll stats with a vanishingly small chance of occurring and then bring them to he forums to get build advice.

Eh, if they're coming to the forums for build advice, they've gotten the stats approved by the DM, one way or another. Or they just enjoy the theoretical exercise. In either case, that's not a sign of cheating in and of itself.

It's only a sign of cheating when it's amazing how often Billy shows up with 3 18s, 2 16s and a 15 at the table.

Longes

2016-10-12, 10:23 AM

It's a sign that there might be cheating, not there necessarily is. I've seen my shair of improbable rolls in life.

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 10:28 AM

Step 3: Determine Stats (normal rule, roll for stats. Variant rules, point buy or array).

Nitpick on your nitpick: rolling or standard array are both default rules. Implication is players choice. Only point buy is a variant rule.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 10:28 AM

And if a player decides what background to be before he does anything else, is the resulting PC not legal?

That's irrelevent. Legal and not legal is entirely up to the group and what rules they wish to use and what rules they wish to discard. If your group chooses to discard what's written for something else, that is entirely encouraged in this edition.

It's also irrelevent as you believed it came from the order of chapters. It does not. It comes from character creation guidelines in chapter 1.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 10:30 AM

Nitpick on your nitpick: rolling or standard array are both default rules. Implication is players choice. Only point buy is a variant rule.

I was thinking about that. Decided not to change the post. It says to roll, and says if you don't want to roll, try this array. That feels like a variant. However, the point buy is officially labeled as a variant.

But even though I kept my writing as is, I feel you're correct in your nit pick. :)

Longes

2016-10-12, 10:34 AM

And if a player decides what background to be before he does anything else, is the resulting PC not legal?

If you do stat rolling - pretty much, yes. You may want to play Andre the Giant and roll stats fitting only for Reistlin. Them's the breaks. That's why the industry mostly moved on to better character creation schemes.

smcmike

2016-10-12, 10:38 AM

If you do stat rolling - pretty much, yes. You may want to play Andre the Giant and roll stats fitting only for Reistlin. Them's the breaks. That's why the industry mostly moved on to better character creation schemes.

Except it didn't, really, since the first stat creation method listed in this extremely popular edition is rolling.

If you want to play Andre the Giant, you need to roll well. If you roll poorly, you need to figure out a different character concept. That, in a nutshell, is why it makes no sense whatsoever to decide anything before you roll (if you roll).

Keltest

2016-10-12, 10:41 AM

BillyBobShorton

2016-10-12, 11:12 AM

The introduction of the DMG consists of three things: what a DM is, how to use the DMG, and knowing your players.

They addressed it right out the door. It's just that DM skip the intro of the DMG, the same way almost all players skip the intro to the PHB. Or just don't own it.

True they have snippets and a very brief intro about general player concerns as it relates directly to the game, (try to create situations that utilize players' strengths/abilities, give less involved PC's things to do, too, listen to player ideas about their character, etc.) but they don't cover much about intangibles that come with being not just a DM, but understanding issues that can come up BECAUSE of the game, but not within it.

Like players unhappy with their initial characters or wanting a change, conflicts that develope from the game but can carry outside of it, party disparity, etc.

Not they need to write a psychology lesson; I just recall a lot of the more "human" aspect of the writings in earlier editions. Not all of it was great, but they did at least try to offer some scenarios, advice. There was an acknowledgment that ppl issues can arise.

I saw that someone cited an example from 2e about working with useless players and either embracing the goof role, using it as a role playing strength-or just scrapping the character and starting over. While it wasn't an option that sounded optimal to some, I still like the face that they were taking into considerstion that concepts of the game can make players question whether or not they were still enjoying things.

Which is why I feel that unwritten rule #1, that not even a DM should trump, is that DM needs to ensure a level of fun for his players. Otherwise, magic rings and stat bumps and wicked spells are all meaningless.

And a DM foregoing the stat buy or pre-gen standard abilities in favor of some guy who alleges an app rolled him up an X-Men character, while the others had been restrictied to stat buys or rolls in person is not a DM accounting for the human element of the game.

Nevermind the painfully absent-minded lack of questioning or verifying it. Maybe the app DID roll those stats. But after how many tries? You ever play Baldur's Gate and create your initial PC? Roll it enough times and you have a fighter with two-three 18's and some 15's/14's....

The players at the table should voice their collective concern and threaten to boycott or retire campaign unless mr. magic stats starts over in a fair system, because the lingering resentment and distrust won't go away. And they sbould not feel awkward about confronting the player. He certainly feels no remorse about cheating/manipulating a soft/unassertive DM or robbing others of enjoyment to feed hisown ego.

Again, these are people issues and a good DM will use the rules or make a ruling to rectify the situation.

Longes

2016-10-12, 12:19 PM

Except it didn't, really, since the first stat creation method listed in this extremely popular edition is rolling.

If you want to play Andre the Giant, you need to roll well. If you roll poorly, you need to figure out a different character concept. That, in a nutshell, is why it makes no sense whatsoever to decide anything before you roll (if you roll).

A statement which I'm sure you base on hard sales data and comparison with successful games like 3.5?

Longes

2016-10-12, 12:21 PM

I would just like to point out that with standard array, you cant have people like the Mighty Fist of Justice, Lawful Good human barbarian with 17 str and con, and 4 intelligence, traveling around dispensing justice alongside his (neutral to evil) dark elven companions, picking fights with paladins, standing in the middle of the road being a shrub, and punching horses.

And that was just the first session.

Sure you can. Not with those specific stats, but you can have someone say "I want to play a barbarian who does X" and then play a barbarian who does X. Whereas with stat rolling what you want doesn't matter - shut up and be happy you got anything at all.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 12:33 PM

A statement which I'm sure you base on hard sales data and comparison with successful games like 3.5?

I don't think anyone wants to get into that conversation again. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500951-Is-there-a-DM-shortage-What-can-or-should-be-done)

Doug Lampert

2016-10-12, 01:34 PM

the point being made wasn't that rolling is the DM's fault. It was allowing cheating by allowing secret rolling on a phone is the DM's fault.

If I allowed rolling I can't imagine requiring the rolls to be open. Why bother? Reroll often enough (which you can do if you're willing to have Bob27 jump off a bridge and then roll Bob28), and you WILL get an extremely good set of ability scores.

So if I'm letting people roll then I'm saying all of the following: (a) I don't mind power imbalances. Because they will inevitably happen if people roll. That's to some extent the entire point of rolling abilities, (b) I don't mind people manipulating things to get better characters. Because I really can't stop them while still allowing the flexibility I want in the rest of the game, and (c) I don't care if the game is at the "expected" power level or not.

Having people roll without a specific rule to address the above concerns is simply a flat admission of the above.

So, if I'm having people roll, then I'll tell them straight out, roll anything that could legally come up, I don't care how you do it or where or if anyone witnesses.

I've got better things to do with my life than try to make sure my friends aren't "cheating" at a game we play for fun.

From all the arguments about stats, half the time I just want to tell my players, "just assign the stats you want your character to have and enjoy the PC. If that means all 20s, go ahead. If that means all 5s, go ahead. Take whatever ability scores you want."
And the odd thing is, when you do this, IME you'll often get LOWER scores than actual rolled games with all sorts of precautions against cheating get.

Most people don't want to play Superman, if they did they'd be playing a high powered superhero game (there are plenty of them out there). But they also don't want to leave an advantage on the table and deliberately gimp themselves without it being clear, both to themselves and others, that the weakness is something they choose, not something they got from some other source.

"Roll dice" encourages me to think about ways to min-max the results and get as much as possible out of them. Which does also encourage thoughts of cheating.

"Take whatever you want" encourages me to think about what will be interesting and fun. It encourages me to think about what I actually want out of the game, and it turns out that that "actually wanted thing" is rarely lots of big numbers on a sheet of paper.

IMAO: One of these is better than the other.

Segev

2016-10-12, 02:07 PM

Most people don't want to play Superman, if they did they'd be playing a high powered superhero game (there are plenty of them out there).

To be fair, it can be harder to find that high-powered superhero game to play in.

I still haven't managed to find an Exalted game that will let me play a Fair Folk. And it's surprisingly hard to find a standard-enough D&D game that I could play a Chain-Spell wielding necromancer. (I want to Precocious Apprentice for Command Undead and find myself some slaymates.)

JackPhoenix

2016-10-12, 03:10 PM

I would just like to point out that with standard array, you cant have people like the Mighty Fist of Justice, Lawful Good human barbarian with 17 str and con, and 4 intelligence, traveling around dispensing justice alongside his (neutral to evil) dark elven companions, picking fights with paladins, standing in the middle of the road being a shrub, and punching horses.

And that was just the first session.

True, with standard array, you could have characters like the Mighty Fist of Justice, Lawful Good human barbarian with 16 str and con, and 8 intelligence, traveling around dispensing justice alongside his (neutral to evil) dark elven companions, picking fights with paladins, standing in the middle of the road being a shrub, and punching horses.

What's the difference again?

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 03:18 PM

That's irrelevent. Legal and not legal is entirely up to the group and what rules they wish to use and what rules they wish to discard. If your group chooses to discard what's written for something else, that is entirely encouraged in this edition.

Is it legal for official WOTC organised play?

When the official DM looks at my character sheet, how does he determine whether I chose my background before or after I chose my race?

It's also irrelevent as you believed it came from the order of chapters. It does not. It comes from character creation guidelines in chapter 1.

Wherever this alleged 'rule' comes from, this list is either 'the rules' or not 'the rules'. Without a written instruction allowing us to modify that list, then ALL of the list is either 'the rules' or not 'the rules'. We cannot say that one part of the list is 'the rules' but another part of the same list isn't!

Organised play is a thing. Characters are either legal or not legal for organised play. I present my character sheet to this week's DM, and he say's that it is not legal because he believes I chose the background before the race! How does he know?

I put it to you that this list is not 'the rules' at all, and simply a list of things that need to be completed. The order is incidental; its only function is to help new players to learn the game quickly and efficiently.

Longes

2016-10-12, 03:23 PM

Is it legal for official WOTC organised play?

When the official DM looks at my character sheet, how does he determine whether I chose my background before or after I chose my race?

In the organized play no one cares about your background. You are playing with a different party and a different DM every time, so the amount of ****s people give about your rich and deep backstory is less than zero.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 03:29 PM

Is it legal for official WOTC organised play?

When the official DM looks at my character sheet, how does he determine whether I chose my background before or after I chose my race?

No. Rolling for ability scores in AL is not legal. AL is strictly point buy. In such a case, whether point buy or array, as has been started several times, the order becomes irrelevent.

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this. The *one* place where you're argument kind of makes sense, in AL, the argument is meaningless as rolled stats aren't allowed.

For everywhere else, it's up to the DM and the group to decide.

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 03:30 PM

I put it to you that this list is not 'the rules' at all, and simply a list of things that need to be completed. The order is incidental; its only function is to help new players to learn the game quickly and efficiently.Yeah, it's not fair to call it a rule, and in retrospect my initial statement of "You're supposed to choose race & class before rolling for stats" isn't really justified.

OTOH, I think it's not incidental. I think that determining where you will place your stats comes after determining class & race because without that information, you can't really do it effectively. Technically you could probably decide "Str 16, Dex 8, Con etc etc" then decide VHuman to get the Str 16 and Fighter because you want HA and to use that high Str. But how likely is that, even for someone that knows the races & classes backwards and forwards? What doesn't "have" to happen is generating the stats first. You certainly can roll or PB before determining race & class. What's probably incidental is they put generating stats together with placing stats, because that makes the most sense.

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this. The *one* place where you're argument kind of makes sense, in AL, the argument is meaningless as rolled stats aren't allowed.

For everywhere else, it's up to the DM and the group to decide.Pretty sure he's objecting to things like my statement I quoted above, and am now retracting. Just because I think doing it in the PHB order is superior, doesn't mean I'm justified in implying it is a hard rule of some kind. (ie that "you're supposed to")

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 03:32 PM

In the organized play no one cares about your background. You are playing with a different party and a different DM every time, so the amount of ****s people give about your rich and deep backstory is less than zero.

I'm not asking (or caring) about how interesting my backstory is to anyone else; I'm asking about making sure my PC is rules legal for organised play.

The DM can look at my character sheet and work out if my stats add up to the 27 point buy, or if my hit point total is correct.

How can the DM tell which order I chose my PC's class/race/stats/background, to check to see if my PC is rules legal?

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 03:36 PM

No. Rolling for ability scores in AL is not legal. AL is strictly point buy. In such a case, whether point buy or array, as has been started several times, the order becomes irrelevent.

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this. The *one* place where you're argument kind of makes sense, in AL, the argument is meaningless as rolled stats aren't allowed.

For everywhere else, it's up to the DM and the group to decide.

I didn't mention rolled stats. It was asserted that 'the rules' are that you have to chose class, race, stats and background in order. I'm asking if the fact I chose my background before I chose my race or class means that my PC is not rules legal.

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 03:42 PM

Yeah, it's not fair to call it a rule, and in retrospect my initial statement of "You're supposed to choose race & class before rolling for stats" isn't really justified.

OTOH, I think it's not incidental. I think that determining where you will place your stats comes after determining class & race because without that information, you can't really do it effectively. Technically you could probably decide "Str 16, Dex 8, Con etc etc" then decide VHuman to get the Str 16 and Fighter because you want HA and to use that high Str. But how likely is that, even for someone that knows the races & classes backwards and forwards? What doesn't "have" to happen is generating the stats first. You certainly can roll or PB before determining race & class. What's probably incidental is they put generating stats together with placing stats, because that makes the most sense.

I agree with most of that. It makes sense that if you use point-buy then you choose race and class first. But if you roll then it makes sense to roll first, see what you get, and then choose race and class knowing full well what you rolled. This is the way PCs have been created since D&D started, and the emergence of point-buy hasn't suddenly made it illegal to do it this way round.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 03:44 PM

I didn't mention rolled stats. It was asserted that 'the rules' are that you have to chose class, race, stats and background in order. I'm asking if the fact I chose my background before I chose my race or class means that my PC is not rules legal.

It's completely irrelevent. It matters not as there is literally zero impact on the character creation process when you're not rolling stats. Rolling for stats is the only time it becomes relevant.

So if you're talking about organized play, you're not talking about rolled stats.

Interestingly, the players guide to adventure league describes making a character in the exact same way. So if you're truly interested in the subject and not just trying to be a **** so you can say "ha ha I'm right," then you may want to inquire with the organizers of AL.

Although they'll probably give you the same answer I have: it's irrelevent.

Arial Black

2016-10-12, 04:30 PM

It's completely irrelevent. It matters not as there is literally zero impact on the character creation process when you're not rolling stats. Rolling for stats is the only time it becomes relevant.

So if you're talking about organized play, you're not talking about rolled stats.

Interestingly, the players guide to adventure league describes making a character in the exact same way. So if you're truly interested in the subject and not just trying to be a **** so you can say "ha ha I'm right," then you may want to inquire with the organizers of AL.

Although they'll probably give you the same answer I have: it's irrelevent.

Once again, the relevance of it. the impact the order would have on character creation (if any), is neither here nor there. Is it legal?

Murder is illegal. You might say that this law is irrelevant to you because you don't plan to kill anyone, but this is of zero use in determining what the law is!

You might think that the order of choosing race and background is irrelevant if you use point-buy(???), but this does not answer the question of whether or not it is an actual rule of the game.

The listed order either is 'the rules', or it is not. What impact, if any, the answer to this may be is not the issue.

If we use point-buy, is my character legal if I chose my background before I chose my class?

If we roll for stats, is my character legal if I chose my background before I chose my class?

The answer must be the same for each of these two questions, because the list applies to either method of stat generation.

So, what is the answer?

RickAllison

2016-10-12, 04:35 PM

Logically speaking, the process should be more like:

1) Race. You born as what you were born.
2/3) Backstory and stats. Nature and Nurture, your starting stats for play would be based on your genes and the events of your story prior to the levels.
4) Class. If someone would be terrible as a wizard, why would they have chosen to enter that class? If one has the physical capabilities of an orchid, why would they be a barbarian? They could still choose to do so (Shillelagh and Magic Stone make for odd and viable builds), but people gravitate towards things they both enjoy and are good at.

Just my thoughts on when class selection should come into play! In Call of Crhulhu (which also rolls for stats), you choose your occupations and backstory once you know your base abilities.

Segev

2016-10-12, 04:37 PM

Just to play pedant's advocate, nothing says that the act of "choosing" has to be the moment you write it on your character page.

So even if the RAW do, in fact, require you to make those choices in the specified order, it's perfectly possible to have a pre-defined "plan" for how you would make them.

Thus, your AL character for whom you made the decision of what Background he has first is still legal even if you have to officially select your Background last, so long as the actual process of constructing your character sheet follows the rules-prescribed order. i.e., you write your Background down last.

You can have all the rough drafts and planning sheets you like, planning out what you'll take as you get to each step. So your official, rules-legal AL character just would have the actual formal selection happen in the specified order.

Heck, given that you've removed "relevance" from whether or not it is rules-legal, you could commit a dastardly bit of cheating and willfully write down all your character's selections completely out of order, and the judge would have no way of knowing! *gasp!* But it's irrelevant, because it won't impact gameplay.

As I said, that's the pedantic view of the rules, even assuming that they do REQUIRE you to go in order.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 04:45 PM

Once again, the relevance of it. the impact the order would have on character creation (if any), is neither here nor there. Is it legal?

Murder is illegal. You might say that this law is irrelevant to you because you don't plan to kill anyone, but this is of zero use in determining what the law is!

You might think that the order of choosing race and background is irrelevant if you use point-buy(???), but this does not answer the question of whether or not it is an actual rule of the game.

The listed order either is 'the rules', or it is not. What impact, if any, the answer to this may be is not the issue.

If we use point-buy, is my character legal if I chose my background before I chose my class?

If we roll for stats, is my character legal if I chose my background before I chose my class?

The answer must be the same for each of these two questions, because the list applies to either method of stat generation.

So, what is the answer?

I'm not really sure what the purpose of your inquiry is here.

I mean, you're at the point of equating a dungeons and dragons rules book to committing murder. I think we've gone a little too far in the topic when things like this occur.

If you really must know the answer and you're unable to figure it out yourself, you can either start working on which parts of the text are rules, which parts are guidelines, and which is flavor text, or you can ask AL, as they have the same process written down in their players guide to adventures league (the only part of this that actually matters - for every other game, ask your DM).

NecessaryWeevil

2016-10-12, 04:49 PM

If I allowed rolling I can't imagine requiring the rolls to be open. Why bother? Reroll often enough (which you can do if you're willing to have Bob27 jump off a bridge and then roll Bob28), and you WILL get an extremely good set of ability scores.

I can't imagine any DM allowing anything so tedious and ridiculous.

Tanarii

2016-10-12, 05:00 PM

I agree with most of that. It makes sense that if you use point-buy then you choose race and class first. But if you roll then it makes sense to roll first, see what you get, and then choose race and class knowing full well what you rolled. This is the way PCs have been created since D&D started, and the emergence of point-buy hasn't suddenly made it illegal to do it this way round.But what doesn't make sense is rolling first, placing stats first (assuming you have choice in where to put them), then deciding your class/race. Placing stats should generally come after deciding on class (at least). So it makes perfect sense that they'd order the steps as choose race & class, then roll & place stats. They could have said roll stats, choose race & class, place stats, but that is just all scattered all over the place. But I think we're in agreement that it's an order chosen for conciseness & flow, as opposed to a rule for the way to do it.

I just also think it's the best order to do it in, if you're going to roll but select where to put the stats afterwards.

And I disagree to "how PCs have been created since D&D started". I just looked up AD&D 1e, and while it has implied order by describing stats before race & class, unlike 5e there is no actual listed order. And it used the same 4d6b3 place anywhere that 5e does as the default method. Or at least, as Method I (of four methods).

This is a fascinating side discussion I managed to start btw :smallbiggrin::smalltongue: :smallyuk:

2D8HP

2016-10-12, 05:07 PM

So you got a character who looked exactly like he would if you were to do an optimized point-buy, except a bit suckier? I'm amazed that people in 2016 still claim that attribute rolling in anything more long term than Paranoia is "interesting" and "produces characters with meaningful flaws".Nope!
I had a standard human with an 18 Dexterity (and otherwise low stats), which is not possible with standard array or point buy.

I wanted to do 3d6 in order one more time, and "play what I rolled" again, and I'm happy with that PC (yeah I'd probably feel differently if that stat was as low as the rest).
Lots of fun, but yeah most of my PC's are point buy now.
I think it's a strength of 5e that you can choose "standard array", or to roll like in '70's D&D, as well as a point buy option, but the 5e point buy option let's you create PC's faster than say the point buy character creation systems of Champions/HERO or GURPS.
I think Wizards made a mighty fun game, and I hope this Edition stays current for a long time.

Longes

2016-10-12, 05:55 PM

I can't imagine any DM allowing anything so tedious and ridiculous.

Here's a problem with stat rolling. Let's say me and my mates want to play some D&D. We gather in one of our appartments and roll characters. I roll poorly and/or get a character I don't like. I want to play a different character. What now? I can tear up the sheet right now and roll a new character. I can play the game trying to get the character killed as quickly as possible and then roll a new character. Or I can get up an leave and not play the game with a character I don't like. OR we can skip all the pain and use array/point buy and have everyone making the characters they want from the start.

In before the responses "man up and play what you rolled" - gaming shouldn't be painful. It's not a chore I have to do, it's entertainment. Having extra bull**** to deal with doesn't add to the game - it detracts from it.

Sigreid

2016-10-12, 06:14 PM

Here's a problem with stat rolling. Let's say me and my mates want to play some D&D. We gather in one of our appartments and roll characters. I roll poorly and/or get a character I don't like. I want to play a different character. What now? I can tear up the sheet right now and roll a new character. I can play the game trying to get the character killed as quickly as possible and then roll a new character. Or I can get up an leave and not play the game with a character I don't like. OR we can skip all the pain and use array/point buy and have everyone making the characters they want from the start.

In before the responses "man up and play what you rolled" - gaming shouldn't be painful. It's not a chore I have to do, it's entertainment. Having extra bull**** to deal with doesn't add to the game - it detracts from it.

So here's the thing, I don't give a crap if you or any other group do point buy or array. The annoying thing is the point buy and array fanboys and girls trying to convince those of us who like to roll and play what we get that we're having bad wrong fun.

NecessaryWeevil

2016-10-12, 06:31 PM

Here's a problem with stat rolling. Let's say me and my mates want to play some D&D. We gather in one of our appartments and roll characters. I roll poorly and/or get a character I don't like. I want to play a different character. What now? I can tear up the sheet right now and roll a new character. I can play the game trying to get the character killed as quickly as possible and then roll a new character. Or I can get up an leave and not play the game with a character I don't like. OR we can skip all the pain and use array/point buy and have everyone making the characters they want from the start.

In before the responses "man up and play what you rolled" - gaming shouldn't be painful. It's not a chore I have to do, it's entertainment. Having extra bull**** to deal with doesn't add to the game - it detracts from it.

I completely agree with your first paragraph. It's the reason I don't like rolling for stats. That being said, if you want to roll for stats I think you are agreeing to gamble for good stats - and the thing about gambling is that you might lose.

I was responding specifically to the part I quoted, which appeared to be saying, "because an absurdly lenient DM could allow someone to subvert the stat rolling process, I just let people pick their stats freely." I'd rather NOT let them subvert the process, either by making them keep what they rolled or suggesting point-buy etc.

CantigThimble

2016-10-12, 06:31 PM

Here's a problem with stat rolling. Let's say me and my mates want to play some D&D. We gather in one of our appartments and roll characters. I roll poorly and/or get a character I don't like. I want to play a different character. What now? I can tear up the sheet right now and roll a new character. I can play the game trying to get the character killed as quickly as possible and then roll a new character. Or I can get up an leave and not play the game with a character I don't like. OR we can skip all the pain and use array/point buy and have everyone making the characters they want from the start.

In before the responses "man up and play what you rolled" - gaming shouldn't be painful. It's not a chore I have to do, it's entertainment. Having extra bull**** to deal with doesn't add to the game - it detracts from it.

If you don't like having a spread of power levels in your party or have your heart set on a particular concept that requires particular stats, then you should use point buy, those are exactly the reasons it exists. My groups don't mind having a spread of power levels within the party and enjoy working with what we get so rolling works great for us.

I just get annoyed when people act like rolling is a bad way to play. If it were objectively a bad way play then it wouldn't be in the book, it's fine, it's just not for groups like yours. If people just accept that their dislike of rolling stats is a preference and not a transcendent truth of RPGs there would be less pointless arguing on these forums.

Sigreid

2016-10-12, 06:40 PM

Some of you are much more polite than I was in responding to Longes. :smalltongue:

dropbear8mybaby

2016-10-12, 07:53 PM

I just get annoyed when people act like rolling is a bad way to play.
It is a bad way to play.

If it were objectively a bad way play then it wouldn't be in the book, it's fine, it's just not for groups like yours.
No, it's in the book because it's yet another sacred cow that can't be killed.

If people just accept that their dislike of rolling stats is a preference and not a transcendent truth of RPGs there would be less pointless arguing on these forums.
It isn't a preference. It's a bad way to play. Just because you don't think it creates problems at your table, doesn't mean it doesn't create problems at your table. If anything, it's your preference that is clouding your perception. I guarantee you that if you pressed the issue with your players, you'd find that nobody likes playing a piss-weak character in amongst gods. But most people are too afraid to admit this, and most people believe that they'll be the ones who roll high and can lord their power over the others.

It's human nature and plays into the addictive facets of gambling on a possibly favourable outcome, even if it comes at the expense of others, or is a risk to their own enjoyment.

Sigreid

2016-10-12, 08:23 PM

It is a bad way to play.

No, it's in the book because it's yet another sacred cow that can't be killed.

It isn't a preference. It's a bad way to play. Just because you don't think it creates problems at your table, doesn't mean it doesn't create problems at your table. If anything, it's your preference that is clouding your perception. I guarantee you that if you pressed the issue with your players, you'd find that nobody likes playing a piss-weak character in amongst gods. But most people are too afraid to admit this, and most people believe that they'll be the ones who roll high and can lord their power over the others.

It's human nature and plays into the addictive facets of gambling on a possibly favourable outcome, even if it comes at the expense of others, or is a risk to their own enjoyment.

No, it's just not your way to play. That's fine. It doesn't make you somehow more enlightened that you don't like to roll for stats.

CantigThimble

2016-10-12, 08:25 PM

...No. You're wrong. I've been the piss weak character at the table and enjoyed it all the same. It was a different experience but not necessarily a bad one. Just because a character is mechanically weak that doesn't mean that can't be an equal contributor in RP and even find a niche in combat in which they can contribute. I don't even want god stats. I've rolled God stats and asked if I could lower them or scrap them entirely because that's not how I like to play.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 08:34 PM

You guys are all wrong. The one true way to play is my way.

Obviously.

dropbear8mybaby

2016-10-12, 08:38 PM

You guys are all wrong. The one true way to play is my way.

Obviously.

This guy gets it.

2D8HP

2016-10-12, 08:45 PM

This guy gets it.Obviously.
:biggrin:

Doug Lampert

2016-10-12, 09:00 PM

I can't imagine any DM allowing anything so tedious and ridiculous.

And you are going to force the player to run Bob27 rather than Bob28 how exactly?

You are going to STOP someone from either retiring a character OR getting him killed in play? How does this work again?

So in your game all I need to do to be immune to anything that would take me out of play is indicate that I plan to keep making new characters till I get one I like?

Weird. But I guess there's no BadWrongFun, if you LIKE being forced to continue to play the same character forever knowing that no matter what stupid stuff he pulls he won't die then whatever floats your boat.

Meanwhile, observationally both in actual play and in discussions on this board; rolled groups average FAR above the expected average of the by the book rolling method. Either they cheat, or they arrange to reroll repeatedly, or they modify the rolling technique.

Try just letting people choose ability scores, IME it gives a wider range than rolling. And it avoids the odd delusion that you can somehow stop people from repeatedly creating characters till they get one they like.

2D8HP

2016-10-12, 09:22 PM

The way I "rolled"
IIRC-
To illustrate how this played out, the scene:
A dank almost crypt like basement/garage during the waning years of the Carter Administration, two pre-teens and some teenagers surround a ping pong table, that has books, papers, dice, pizza and sodas on it
Teen DM (my best friends older brother): You turn the corner, and 20' away you see the door shown on the map.
Teen player (who thinks he's all that because he's been playing longer than me with the LBB's, but does he have the new PHB and DMG? No! So who's really the "Advanced" one huh!): With the lantern still tied to the ten foot pole, I slowly proceed forward observing if they are any drafts from unexpected places. You (looks at me) check the floor with the other pole.
Me (pre-teen): Oh man it's late, are we even getting into the treasure room today!
Teen player: You've got to check for traps!
Me: I run up and force the door open!
DM: Blarg the fighter falls through the floor onto the spikes below.
*rolls dice*
Your character is dead.
Teen player: Dude you got smoked!
Me: Look at my next character. I rolled a 15 for Strength.
DM: Really?
Me: Yeah, Derek totally witnessed me rolling it up!
DM: Did he?
Derek (my best friend, another pre-teen who invited me to the game): Are you gonna eat that slice of pizza?
Me: No.
Derek: Yeah I totally saw it.
*munch*
Me: See!
DM: *groan*:smallwink:
In memory of my best friend, Derek Lindstrom Whaley, who in 6th grade saw me reading the blue book and invited me to play D&D at his house - R.I.P.

mgshamster

2016-10-12, 09:33 PM

The way I "rolled"
In memory of my best friend, Derek Lindstrom Whaley, who in 6th grade saw me reading the blue book and invited me to play D&D at his house - R.I.P.

That made me smile.

Zaydos

2016-10-12, 09:34 PM

This thread just reminds me of my first 3e DM when he was a player (yeah I rolled 2 18s, 2 16, a 14, and a 10, and I have a +6 synergy bonus to Diplomacy at 1st level*). Out of the 2 other players who tried to DM and myself I was the only one that could handle him, mostly by quoting the rules he had quoted as a DM back at him (actually one time he made me do that as a player because he was ignoring a rule he had quoted 1 round before, and when questioned required a page citation from memory on it :smallsigh:) and making him roll on the table where I could see it (which was his rule as a DM). He got very upset if he didn't have at least 2 18s (he called any character without 'unplayable').

*Here's a hint to get a synergy bonus to anything you have to be 2nd level and in 3.0 which this was you couldn't have a +6 synergy bonus to Diplomacy.

I prefer Point Buy to rolls, but there is a charm to rolls (I'd be more likely to do those in 2e or earlier however where the PC turnover is expected to be quite high).

Keltest

2016-10-12, 09:44 PM

True, with standard array, you could have characters like the Mighty Fist of Justice, Lawful Good human barbarian with 16 str and con, and 8 intelligence, traveling around dispensing justice alongside his (neutral to evil) dark elven companions, picking fights with paladins, standing in the middle of the road being a shrub, and punching horses.

What's the difference again?

Well for one thing, its rather difficult to justify an 8 int character as being too dumb to recognize that his companions are clearly evil and conflicting with his alignment. Or dumb enough to actually think standing in the middle of a road holding a shrub constitutes a disguise. 8 is only slightly below average intelligence.

2D8HP

2016-10-12, 10:26 PM

I prefer Point Buy to rolls, but there is a charm to rolls (I'd be more likely to do those in 2e or earlier however where the PC turnover is expected to be quite high).Yeah, the turnover was a lot, but character creation was faster (and most of that time was spent budgeting equipment), and there was much less to mechanically/crunch-wise distinguish 1st level PC's, and if I'm going to be playing the same PC for a long while (or I have a bunch of PC's already made), than I mostly prefer 5e, but if I have only one or two nights for our "campaign", I still give the nod to 'rolling up 70's rules D&D PC's and playing sooner rather than later (it also helps that I know those rules better, but I'm pretty much up for any game that is close to most any version of D&D).
Well for one thing, its rather difficult to justify an 8 int character as being too dumb to recognize that his companions are clearly evil and conflicting with his alignment. Or dumb enough to actually think standing in the middle of a road holding a shrub constitutes a disguise. 8 is only slightly below average intelligence.As someone who is below average intelligence, I hope I can tell if my companions are evil, but during the ten months I worked for the Port of San Francisco, I repeatedly saw the "Bush Man" hide behind some branches with leaves. It works!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/The_Bushman.png/220px-The_Bushman.png

MeeposFire

2016-10-12, 11:33 PM

I think the reason that the rules show you choosing a class first and then doing your stats is all based on the fact that a stat array and potentially point buy can be standard for your game if you so choose.

If you roll stats you can do stats first if you roll them as a specific order (as in your first roll is your str and so on). If you do point buy, standard array, or roll and choose where the stats go how do you really choose without knowing why you are putting something there?

While it certainly can be done by choosing stats first I think they decided it made most sense for most people to choose what they want to do first so they have context on how to allocate their ability scores when you do get them (however that is).

Pex

2016-10-12, 11:35 PM

So here's the thing, I don't give a crap if you or any other group do point buy or array. The annoying thing is the point buy and array fanboys and girls trying to convince those of us who like to roll and play what we get that we're having bad wrong fun.

Ding ding ding!

Jamesps

2016-10-12, 11:38 PM

And you are going to force the player to run Bob27 rather than Bob28 how

Weird. But I guess there's no BadWrongFun, if you LIKE being forced to continue to play the same character forever knowing that no matter what stupid stuff he pulls he won't die then whatever floats your boat.

This is literally the sole reason I have made several characters in fact. Ridiculously tough to kill, not to help the party with tanking, but so I could survive all the horrifically stupid stuff I intended to pull.

It is the best way to play.

Lance Tankmen

2016-10-13, 01:10 AM

Socratov

2016-10-13, 03:32 AM

I do roll for stats I find it to be more entertaining as a dm Its the little things. None of my players complained. I mean sure you could constantly die but that's half xp and sooner or later you'll be a level 4 amongst 8s. So your better rolls won't matter if that's what you're after. Retirement is 0 xp at my table so level one. Honestly haven't had anyone complain and the guy who rolled the lowest has been the strongest player just from build and not being a dumbass and dying

I disagree, I think retirement, for the right in-story reason, makes for a great reason to switch characters. Doing it your way would be like Black Jack or Bust: you either get 21 (and live) or you die.

Though anecdotal, my forest gnome moon druid lost 80% of his extended family (a clan of gnomes in the woods) and most of the healthier part of his forest in a dragon attack (campaign conclusion for LMoP thought up by my DM), in addition to that he lost most of his colleague druids and felt he had to go on a trip to redeem himself and to give back to nature what he had directly taken and indirectly sacrificed. He knows he has done the right things, but the loss still hurts. So to redeem himself he now wanders the lands for his own area and those of the friends he lost. Could I have kept him in the game, sure, but at what cost? His reason to adventure has disappeared. Well, that's where I break out the repository and work with the DM to bring in a new character. One with a reason to adventure.

If you want to stop cheating with scores, there is a simple solution: point-buy or standard array. Another is rolling with you present, one time 4d6b3. If he starts burning through Bobs to get his lucky draw ten ask him to stop making suicide bo(m)bers.

Arial Black

2016-10-13, 07:56 AM

But what doesn't make sense is rolling first, placing stats first (assuming you have choice in where to put them), then deciding your class/race. Placing stats should generally come after deciding on class (at least). So it makes perfect sense that they'd order the steps as choose race & class, then roll & place stats. They could have said roll stats, choose race & class, place stats, but that is just all scattered all over the place. But I think we're in agreement that it's an order chosen for conciseness & flow, as opposed to a rule for the way to do it.

I completely disagree.

Your ability scores start affecting you from birth. Indeed, your aptitude affects your career choice.

You don't choose to be a blacksmith or circus strongman and then check to see how strong you are! You don't decide to do a doctorate on a ground-breaking cutting-edge new approach to unifying quantum mechanics and relativity, then realise you only have Int 8.

What happens is that you (and the people who know you) understand your strengths and weaknesses and use that information to choose your career path.

In short, determining ability scores comes before choosing class.

And I disagree to "how PCs have been created since D&D started". I just looked up AD&D 1e, and while it has implied order by describing stats before race & class, unlike 5e there is no actual listed order. And it used the same 4d6b3 place anywhere that 5e does as the default method. Or at least, as Method I (of four methods).

Well I didn't just look at the book; I actually played 1E since 1978 and we absolutely rolled first. Point-buy didn't exist, and with ability score minimums for various classes it was, in practice, required that you know your stats before you chose your class.

Imagine it was the other way around: "I choose to play a paladin! Now I roll my stats. Oh, no! I didn't get a 17 or 18. Since paladins have a minimum of 17 Charisma, I literally cannot play a paladin!"

What actually happened was that you rolled your stats, and then decided what class to play. It was only when you knew what you rolled that it was even possible to choose, because every class had its own stat minimums. You couldn't even choose to be a fighter before you rolled stats, because there was no guarantee that you had at least 9 Strength, which was the minimum requirement to be a fighter.

So yeah, you absolutely had to roll stats first. 5E has not changed the rules to make it illegal.

Tanarii

2016-10-13, 08:41 AM

I completely disagree.

Your ability scores start affecting you from birth. Indeed, your aptitude affects your career choice.

You don't choose to be a blacksmith or circus strongman and then check to see how strong you are! You don't decide to do a doctorate on a ground-breaking cutting-edge new approach to unifying quantum mechanics and relativity, then realise you only have Int 8.

What happens is that you (and the people who know you) understand your strengths and weaknesses and use that information to choose your career path.

In short, determining ability scores comes before choosing class.Sure, in terms of simulation. But in terms of building a character, you choose your class, then put your stats there. Even if you go "I'll put highest in Str, next in Cha, and build a Paladin" you're STILL doing class first subconsciously, based on your rules knowledge.

Well I didn't just look at the book; I actually played 1E since 1978 and we absolutely rolled first. Your appeal to experience is cute and all, but I see what you tried to do there. And so did I, albeit starting a few years later. We rolled first too. But we did 3d6 in order even in AD&D 1e, so stats had to come before class regardless.

OTOH as far as non-appeal to experience arguments go ...

Point-buy didn't exist, and with ability score minimums for various classes it was, in practice, required that you know your stats before you chose your class.Good point. Even if you're placing stats where you want them, when classes have minimums, using the general methods you're absolutely correct, it requires rolling first.

But placing stats in 1e requires knowing what class you're going to be so you can meet the minimums. And in both 5e and 1e it requires knowing what stats are good for what class. In other words, you choose your class before placing stats.

Arial Black

2016-10-13, 08:53 AM

Sure, in terms of simulation. But in terms of building a character, you choose your class, then put your stats there. Even if you go "I'll put highest in Str, next in Cha, and build a Paladin" you're STILL doing class first subconsciously, based on your rules knowledge.

Your appeal to experience is cute and all, but I see what you tried to do there. And so did I, albeit starting a few years later. We rolled first too. But we did 3d6 in order even in AD&D 1e, so stats had to come before class regardless.

OTOH as far as non-appeal to experience arguments go ...
Good point. Even if you're placing stats where you want them, when classes have minimums, using the general methods you're absolutely correct, it requires rolling first.

But placing stats in 1e requires knowing what class you're going to be so you can meet the minimums. And in both 5e and 1e it requires knowing what stats are good for what class. In other words, you choose your class before placing stats.

Not if you're rolling stats in order!

Another thing is that some classes are more SAD and some more MAD. You roll well and finally have a chance to play that kick-arse barbarian/warlock idea that you've had for ages! Point-buy simply will not do for that bad boy. If I had to choose class first, I'd never do that because I'm overwhelmingly likely to be unable to play it.

Conversely, I might choose to always play SAD PCs so that I only need one good stat. Moon druid again?

Plus, another nail in the coffin of the idea that it somehow makes for a better game if you're forced to choose race and class before rolling for stats because it prevents you from taking advantage of good rolls(?) (as if that were a bad thing!) is that if you are forced to choose a class before you roll so choose a SAD class, when you roll well you can multiclass at level 2, rendering the whole restrictive nastiness totally pointless.

MaxWilson

2016-10-13, 09:08 AM

Our 5e campaign consists of six players. With a bit of conflict here and there, we mosty get along, but there's one player that causes conflict and controversy more than others. He has a tendency to "roll" high stats using a private stat roller on his phone, giving himself multiple 18's and great stats at level one. Classes like the monk, where he gets to add his wisdom mod to his AC, benefit from this greatly by having 18 AC from the start. That's like having plate mail.

Every time we complain about his character having godlike stats he gets defensive, saying that he "rolled" for them and everyone has their chance. This alone is annoying, but his high stats remove most of the challenge and personal growth in the game, causing him to get bored and make a new chracater every month. How do we deal with his "power playing" problems?

Don't play with cheaters. No method of character generation will prevent cheaters from ruining things in play--there's too many other things to cheat on. (Attack rolls, saving throws, current HP totals, equipment lists, spell selection, feats, money...)

Well I didn't just look at the book; I actually played 1E since 1978 and we absolutely rolled first. Point-buy didn't exist, and with ability score minimums for various classes it was, in practice, required that you know your stats before you chose your class.

This is true for race as well. If you roll a 3 Dex, guess what? You're not an elf.

Plus, another nail in the coffin of the idea that it somehow makes for a better game if you're forced to choose race and class before rolling for stats because it prevents you from taking advantage of good rolls(?) (as if that were a bad thing!) is that if you are forced to choose a class before you roll so choose a SAD class, when you roll well you can multiclass at level 2, rendering the whole restrictive nastiness totally pointless.

Yeah, the smart play would be to usually (always?) start as a Fighter unless you're planning on being a Moon Druid. Fighter 1 is useful to a wide range of characters (pure melee fighters, ranged fighter/rogues, fighter/wizards for concentration and heavy armor) and is the easiest class to multiclass out of (Str 13 OR Dex 13). It's a low-risk, high-benefit choice if you're forced to choose blindly.

Byke

2016-10-13, 09:17 AM

My 2 cents...

Stat buy eliminates any disparity in luck between players and works really well in 5e because of bounded accuracy.

As a DM it shouldn't matter if one players has better stats than another, you can easily tailor encounters or magic items to help players with bad stats shine. If the players are feeling inadequate because of bad stats rolls then that is the DMs fault.

In most of my games we use point buy, but there have been games where the player wanted to roll. I had each of them roll one stat and they used the pool rolled by all players. Everyone wins....

Tanarii

2016-10-13, 09:30 AM

Plus, another nail in the coffin of the idea that it somehow makes for a better game if you're forced to choose race and class before rolling for stats because it prevents you from taking advantage of good rolls(?) (as if that were a bad thing!) is that if you are forced to choose a class before you roll so choose a SAD class, when you roll well you can multiclass at level 2, rendering the whole restrictive nastiness totally pointless.
Yes, taking advantage of good rolls is a bad thing. In my book, at least. The point of rolling is to give you a variance, and possibly a slight advantage or disadvantage compared to the normal standard. Not to optimize even further around already good rolls.

2D8HP

2016-10-13, 09:31 AM

What actually happened was that you rolled your stats, and then decided what class to play. It was only when you knew what you rolled that it was even possible to choose, because every class had its own stat minimums. You couldn't even choose to be a fighter before you rolled stats, because there was no guarantee that you had at least 9 Strength, which was the minimum requirement to be a fighter.

So yeah, you absolutely had to roll stats first. 5E has not changed the rules to make it illegal.I'm at work and my books are at home, and it's been decades but that's what I remember as well.
They were also racial minimums as well, and it was possible to roll up a character that didn't qualify for any class, in which case you were supposed to play a Fighter despite not meeting the minimum of 9 Strength requirement.
Good times.
:amused:
In most of my games we use point buy, but there have been games where the player wanted to roll. I had each of them roll one stat and they used the pool rolled by all players. Everyone wins....That's an elegant solution.
I like it!
Maybe have them roll a d6 to see which stats were rolled and which point buy?

CantigThimble

2016-10-13, 09:49 AM

Don't play with cheaters. No method of character generation will prevent cheaters from ruining things in play--there's too many other things to cheat on. (Attack rolls, saving throws, current HP totals, equipment lists, spell selection, feats, money...)

To be fair, there is something to be said for making it less tempting to cheat. The more likely it is to be discovered the less likely you are to fudge something. Plus if a player has a moment of weakness and bumps a rolled stat by 1-2 then regrets it later they can't really take that back once the group has seen their character without revealing that they cheated in the first place. With other types of cheating you can realize how stupid what you're doing is and undo it or just stop without public humiliation but with stats you can't and it can't be discovered by checking over the character sheet later so it's just going to be stuck there. Even if I trust someone it just makes things easier if I don't make it temptingly easy to cheat.

mgshamster

2016-10-13, 11:11 AM

Here's one thing I've done to create some randomization and to stay within a 27 point buy:

There's a list out there of all the possible variations of 27 point buy. It's around 60-70 options. I find a dice roller that lets me customize the dice and roll to see which spread I'll be using.

Then I roll to randomly assign each stat to an ability score.

It's 27 point buy, but I have no idea what my ability scores will end up being. Then I build a character off of that. Sometimes I even pick my race first, and then use my race and ability scores to determine what class the character will become.

It's a fun way to make a character while keeping within the point but range.

Addaran

2016-10-13, 12:03 PM

VoltaicVitriol

2016-10-13, 12:47 PM

Blue Duke

2016-10-13, 02:03 PM

NecessaryWeevil

2016-10-13, 02:44 PM

And you are going to force the player to run Bob27 rather than Bob28 how exactly?

You are going to STOP someone from either retiring a character OR getting him killed in play? How does this work again?

So in your game all I need to do to be immune to anything that would take me out of play is indicate that I plan to keep making new characters till I get one I like?

Weird. But I guess there's no BadWrongFun, if you LIKE being forced to continue to play the same character forever knowing that no matter what stupid stuff he pulls he won't die then whatever floats your boat.

What a bizarre interpretation of what I wrote.

How am I going to force him to play what he rolled? Easy. At about Bob4 I'm going to say, "Your constant suiciding and rerolling characters is disrupting the game and impairing the enjoyment of the other players (and the DM). Either use point buy or standard array, accept that rolling for stats has risks and if Bob4 dies in the next month you'll be roleplaying a corpse, or find a DM insane enough to let you reroll 28 times."

Try just letting people choose ability scores, IME it gives a wider range than rolling. And it avoids the odd delusion that you can somehow stop people from repeatedly creating characters till they get one they like.

That's an interesting idea that I might try sometime as a oneshot, but it doesn't require the strange idea that a DM is helpless before such a player in order to consider it.

Anyway, I think we're getting caught up in a tangent. Thanks for your thoughts.

MaxWilson

2016-10-13, 03:29 PM

Maxilian

2016-10-13, 03:33 PM

When I DM my players have two options: either take the standard array, or roll core old-school. That means 3d6 per stat, in order, no switching or rerolling. That can be fun and challenging, and some players take the option. Most just use standard array though.

I have a player that he hates Standard array, he always roll for his stats (he obviously roll in front of everyone else) and he's always happy with the ending (being it good stats or bad) though i let them go with 4d6 and take the 3 bigger (that have never been a problem for me, the only one who goes with Standard array is me -whenever someone else is DMing i tend to go with Standard cause it let me plan my character without needing to have the DM in front of me)

Maxilian

2016-10-13, 03:37 PM

What a bizarre interpretation of what I wrote.

How am I going to force him to play what he rolled? Easy. At about Bob4 I'm going to say, "Your constant suiciding and rerolling characters is disrupting the game and impairing the enjoyment of the other players (and the DM). Either use point buy or standard array, accept that rolling for stats has risks and if Bob4 dies in the next month you'll be roleplaying a corpse, or find a DM insane enough to let you reroll 28 times."

Depending how it goes, i would let him do it, but with one condition, your character will be cursed by his ancestors (all those that died until he got what he wanted) and they will follow him around (sometimes just being disruptive -Posessing a vendor that the character is talking with and then the vendor will suddenly become angry and throw him out of his shop)

Note: Also if they have a Necromancer in the party, i'm pretty sure that guy will be quite happy

Grod_The_Giant

2016-10-13, 03:38 PM

Segev

2016-10-13, 03:51 PM

When I run games, I like to let my players roll a matrix of 6 columns, each entry being 4d6 drop low. The numbers go into the matrix in the order rolled. They then can pick any one row, column, or diagonal they like for their stats. The six numbers they thus chose can be then assigned to whichever stats they wish.

It tends to make higher-powered characters, but with enough randomness to keep it fun for me.

odigity

2016-10-13, 05:08 PM

And you are going to force the player to run Bob27 rather than Bob28 how exactly?

You are going to STOP someone from either retiring a character OR getting him killed in play? How does this work again?

Are- are you in prison? You seem to be complete ignoring the existence of free association.

In the real world outside of the game there are property rights. If the game is at this player's house, you get up and leave. If the game is at someone else's house, you ask that player to leave.

odigity

2016-10-13, 05:15 PM

2D8HP

2016-10-13, 05:48 PM

Depending how it goes, i would let him do it, but with one condition, your character will be cursed by his ancestors (all those that died until he got what he wanted).....:biggrin:
That's hilarious.
Thank you!
There's a list out there of all the possible variations of 27 point buy. It's around 60-70 options. I find a dice roller that lets me customize the dice and roll to see which spread I'll be using....
That's a clever compromise of balance and variance.I agree. @mghamster's solution is pretty slick.
It occurs to me that someone with a lot of time could make a list of all possible options of First level PC's.
I can see it now:
"You rolled #618, a half-orc Bard from an Outlander background with
Bond of:
I am the last of my tribe, and it is up to me to ensure that their names enter legend,
and
Flaw of:
Violence is my answer to almost any challenge.

Charisma of 8.

I actually think I want to play a random PC like that!

mgshamster

2016-10-13, 06:10 PM

I actually think I want to play a random PC like that!

Just use one of the random character generators that are out there. They accomplish that in its entirety and can make a character of any level.

Although this (http://whothe****ismydndcharacter.com) one is my favorite (doesn't give stats).

Edit. That link apparently doesn't work, because it has the f word in the link and GitP edits it out.

dropbear8mybaby

2016-10-13, 08:12 PM

I would love to see that point-buy based random roller but can't find it myself.

Lindonius

2016-10-13, 08:12 PM

Why do people insist that their way is the only way, why do my friends keep giving me **** because i dislike playing something with massive penalties....i dont find being significantly below average to be any fun what so ever. Roll, Point Buy, Standard array....do what ever works for your group but the only time you should be using a phone dice roller is if you are on a car trip or something and dont want dice flying all over the car/camp site.

In my experience there's 2 types of people that prefer rolling for stats. The first, and the kind that I think most people who advocate stat rolling are, are the ones that like the wide variety of arrays that it produces, which allows for more interesting characters. I put myself in the above category.

Now I have no problem with people who say they won't play with a gimped character. But if you are of this ilk, you do point buy at my table.

The problems I've had have been with the real powergamery types as mentioned in the OP. And that's those who try rolling for stats so that they can start with characters that are more powerful than if they used point buy. It's why I cringe when I see people advocating "rolling with a safety net" methods of character generation. Either messing with the 4d6 drop lower system or "roll for stats but use point buy if you get crap rolls". No. You choose point buy or rolling RAW as per the book. If you choose to roll and tank the rolls you have to think of some way to make that work. If you don't think you can do this.....Use point buy.

I've seen many a story about tanked stats making for fun characters...Man Rider is the obvious one but there are others.

mgshamster

2016-10-13, 08:37 PM

I would love to see that point-buy based random roller but can't find it myself.

There isn't a roller.

But here's a complete list (https://amp.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2epkdi/5e_here_is_a_complete_list_of_valid_ability_score/) of all valid point buys for 5e. Just counted again, there are 65.

So you just need a d65.

Here is a customizable dice roller (https://rolz.org). Tell it to roll a d65 and figure out which array you will use. If you miscount, who cares? It's close enough to be random.

Then assign them 1-6. Roll a d6 and that attribute goes to strength. Reassign 1-5. Roll a d5. That goes to dex. Repeat as necessary.

Socratov

2016-10-14, 01:15 AM

So fun story, it's actually really easy to remove Ability Scores from 5e altogether. Literally all you need to do is say "use Proficiency (or Prof+1, if you want to mirror the starting 16s a little better) in place of the appropriate Ability Score for anything you're Proficient in, as well as AC, weapon damage, and class features, and just use appropriate skills in place of lingering raw ability checks."* Baddabing, badaboom. No more arguing over rolled-vs-array-vs-point buy.

*You would ideally do it more elegantly than that, tweaking saves and skill lists and proficiency progressions and the like for smoother curves; I know Kryx and I have both come up with systems to do so.
Well, basically you could turn dnd into a shadowrun style system: you get 10 points to divide between 6 modifiers and your modifiers can't be higher then +3. Races increase your modifier and maximum for a +1 if the race would otherwise get a +2, and raises the max mod when the race would otherwise get a +1.

Then you select your skills/tools/weapons you are proficient with (through class, race, etc) and roll that many d6's, 5 and 6 are successes and armour reduces the number of successes. Use the wound system as in shadowrun where the con mod is the number of physical rows. Each success is a wound, weapons have a max number of successes. for opposed tests, roll opposed successes, for skillchecks, roll the required number of successes.

There you have it: Dungeonrun.

Malifice

2016-10-14, 01:56 AM

Tanarii

2016-10-14, 06:13 AM

Player: 'I rolled crap stats, I kill my PC'

DM: 'Cool. Your next PC has the exact same stats. Your move'What will happen next week on Princess Player vs Tyrant DM? Tune in and find out!

2D8HP

2016-10-14, 06:47 AM

The one issue I have with all the "random but balanced" stat proposals I've read, is that while they satisfy the "I want to be surprised and challenge myself" motivation of rolling for stats, they don't satisfy the other motivation of rolling for stats (no not the "I want an over-powered unbalanced PC" one), speed.
When you roll for stats, you can make a PC fast. I like 5e's standard array, and point buy options, because while I can create a custom PC, it doesn't take me as long as the point buy systems of some other (less fun) RPG's I've played, and I also like that when I want to, I may just roll for stats '70's style and make a PC fast (even faster would be a 10,000? PC list of all the mechanical options, or just a big bunch of pre-gens that you could roll for).

What will happen next week on Princess Player vs Tyrant DM? Tune in and find out!Too funny.
:biggrin:

mgshamster

2016-10-14, 06:54 AM

I once had a DM that had standard rule for quitting a character and rolling up a new one:

If your character legitimately dies in a game due to bad luck or roleplaying, your new character will be the same level as the party average (this was 2e, where PC levels often varied).

If you quit your PC or killed off your PC because you were bored with it or didn't like the stats or whatever (based on DM's judgment), then your new PC started at level 1.

Arial Black

2016-10-14, 07:59 AM

When I DM my players have two options: either take the standard array, or roll core old-school. That means 3d6 per stat, in order, no switching or rerolling. That can be fun and challenging, and some players take the option. Most just use standard array though.

That's a loaded choice. The standard array is far better than 3d6, and the 'in order' part applying to the latter but not the former just makes it worse.

'Passive/aggressive' indeed.

To give a balanced choice, go with the PHB (array or 4d6k3 and arrange as desired).

Or go with 3d6 in order no swapping, or use the array 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 and randomly determine where each score goes.

Of course, your original bias can be reversed: use the standard array (in the order given!), or roll 18d6 per stat (max 18), and then arrange as desired.

Would this be 'aggressive/passive'?

MaxWilson

2016-10-14, 11:23 AM

I would love to see that point-buy based random roller but can't find it myself.

Ask and ye shall receive. I made this for you: https://maxwilson.github.io/RandomPointBuy/

Example output:

Strength: 13
Dexterity: 15
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 9
Charisma: 13

mgshamster

2016-10-14, 11:34 AM

Ask and ye shall receive. I made this for you: https://maxwilson.github.io/RandomPointBuy/

Example output:

Strength: 13
Dexterity: 15
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 9
Charisma: 13

Cool! Did you just whip that up right now, or have you had it a while?

odigity

2016-10-14, 11:37 AM

Ask and ye shall receive.

Italian sub, no pickles.

https://maxwilson.github.io/RandomPointBuy/

Nice! Minor suggestion: I'm pretty casual about such things, but I know people that are super-anal about being able to audit the code themselves in case there's a math or RNG-related error. Perhaps include a link to the un-minified version of the JS?

MaxWilson

2016-10-14, 11:46 AM

Cool! Did you just whip that up right now, or have you had it a while?

I did it in response to this thread.

Nice! Minor suggestion: I'm pretty casual about such things, but I know people that are super-anal about being able to audit the code themselves in case there's a math or RNG-related error. Perhaps include a link to the un-minified version of the JS?

@odigity, the source code is at the usual URL for a github.io repository. Here's a direct link: https://github.com/MaxWilson/RandomPointBuy/. All the non-boilerplate code is in this file: https://github.com/MaxWilson/RandomPointBuy/blob/master/main.fs

Calibus

2016-10-14, 12:23 PM

I outright refuse to allow rolled stats that aren't rolled in front of the DM. This prevents cheating

LudicSavant

2016-10-14, 01:12 PM

So there are two possibilities. One is that the player is *actually cheating* with these private rolls, in which case you straight up remove that person from the game. Period.

The other and more interesting case is that you just have a player who has rolled much better than other players. This is just something that's going to happen if you allow rolling for stats instead of point buy; someone is always gonna be the lowest roller, and someone is always gonna be the highest roller. It's not the way I usually run things (I make players use point buy and take average HD rolls when I DM) but if you sign up for a game where rolling for stats is a thing, you get exactly what you signed up for and you've gotta deal with it.

I'm currently playing a game where we rolled stats, 7 sets of 4d6k3, keeping the best 6. I came out with a total modifier of +3 while others came out with totals like +9 and +12. Basically, my rolls were far lower than the other players at the table. So what'd I do with my multiple dump stats?

I played a class that fills unique niches the other players don't fill. I threw my one decent stat into Wisdom and played a Druid. I grabbed Perception and the Observant feat for a passive perception of 21 at level 1. I use Wildshape to switch in stats a coupla times a day. I wrote my character's flaws and weaknesses into their backstory and characterization and played it up for interesting effect. I made creative use of open-ended magical abilities. I made myself useful to the party, both mechanically and flavorfully interesting. And that's how you deal with it without being That Guy who does things like kill their own character for another chance to roll or some other silliness.

odigity

2016-10-14, 01:16 PM

@odigity, the source code is at the usual URL for a github.io repository. Here's a direct link: https://github.com/MaxWilson/RandomPointBuy/. All the non-boilerplate code is in this file: https://github.com/MaxWilson/RandomPointBuy/blob/master/main.fs

That post was pre-coffee, which is why my brain failed to evaluate github repo = browseable codebase.

Edit: I plan to learn React in November.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-10-14, 02:15 PM

Well, basically you could turn dnd into a shadowrun style system: you get 10 points to divide between 6 modifiers and your modifiers can't be higher then +3. Races increase your modifier and maximum for a +1 if the race would otherwise get a +2, and raises the max mod when the race would otherwise get a +1.

Then you select your skills/tools/weapons you are proficient with (through class, race, etc) and roll that many d6's, 5 and 6 are successes and armour reduces the number of successes. Use the wound system as in shadowrun where the con mod is the number of physical rows. Each success is a wound, weapons have a max number of successes. for opposed tests, roll opposed successes, for skillchecks, roll the required number of successes.

There you have it: Dungeonrun.
I kind of like the idea of turning 5e into a dice pool system; the fact that bonuses are so firmly capped makes me think it should be easy enough, though I'm unfamiliar enough with the math that I have no idea how you'd set DCs in any sort of systematic way. I don't think the first bit would really change anything, though; it's just a slightly altered form of point buy.

For what it's worth, I finally got around to transcribing my latest set of notes on a skills-only 5e here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills).

Sniccups

2016-10-15, 06:34 AM

I have a similar problem, but less so. We rolled for stats, and the dragonborn fighter has 18/16/15/14/12/14. This was the actual physical roll. Of course, he's the only non-caster, so we need a good fighter, but still, all positive modifiers.

xanderh

2016-10-15, 10:05 AM

I recently switched to having all players roll a stat array, and letting the players choose which array to use. If a character dies, they get to choose from the same list of arrays for the next character.
I did this because I, as a player, didn't enjoy when another player rolled significantly better than I did, but I still preferred rolling over standard array. I explained my reasoning behind it, and all of my players agreed that it was a good idea.

My regular DM is also a player in that campaign, and he implemented the same rolling method in the new campaign he made, and it resolved the issues for me completely.

In our experience, having all players be more powerful than the game expects isn't a problem, since the DM can adjust to this. However, having an imbalance within the party can create situations where challenging one player means that the rest of the party has issues keeping up.
With our new rolling method, that hasn't been an issue.

2D8HP

2016-10-15, 11:56 AM

. In our experience, having all players be more powerful than the game expects isn't a problem, since the DM can adjust to this. However, having an imbalance within the party can create situations where challenging one player means that the rest of the party has issues keeping up
This.

Back in the 1980's among the many less fun than D&D RPG's I had (yes subjective yadda, yadda, yadda) was a gem called Stormbringer! that I thought was a better Swords and Sorcery world simulator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501306-D-amp-D-is-not-a-world-simulator) than D&D. Besides stats you also rolled backgrounds, and you'd wind up with a party with one mighty Melnibonean sorcerer, and some crippled drooling begger comic sidekicks (which made for a lame game).

Point buy character creation games typically have longer character creation and "min-maxing" often creates verisimilitude issues ("so your PC speaks seven languages, is deaf and can't add or subtract?").

I think 5e D&D has done a good job of managing those issues.

odigity

2016-10-15, 02:15 PM

BTW - The title of this thread annoys me. It makes it sound like the topic is about a pervasive cultural problem, but it's just one guy bitching about a single other guy who rolled on his phone several times and kept getting good stats. Why the hell is the title "Power players are killing the game"?

I wish some moderators would step in to correct these titles. You know what else I hate? When the title is so generic you can't figure out what it's about / whether it's worth clicking on. Titles like "So, I have a question...". God I hate those so bad. Why can't we do something about that?

Also, that "Claric" typo keeps haunting me. I wish people would stop posting in that one so I wouldn't have to keep seeing it in the list of threads. Like nails on a chalkboard, that one.

bid

2016-10-15, 04:22 PM

An 18 AC vs a 16 AC means you'll get hit 10% less often-- it's maybe a once-per-fight event that the higher bonus matters.
Careful here. Against a +5, that's 8/20 vs 10/20 hits or 20% less often.

bid

2016-10-15, 04:29 PM

You know what else I hate?
Bad day today. Pedant here, against there.

Still, confusing "power player" with cheater/munchkin is bad form. A true power player doesn't need inflated stats to challenge a DM.

odigity

2016-10-15, 05:08 PM

You know what else I hate?

Bad day today. Pedant here, against there.

I regret not saying "You know what really grinds my gears?" instead.

2D8HP

2016-10-15, 05:11 PM

I regret not saying "You know what really grinds my gears?" instead.
This turn in the thread CHAPS MY HIDE!

Grod_The_Giant

2016-10-15, 05:56 PM

Careful here. Against a +5, that's 8/20 vs 10/20 hits or 20% less often.
Hmm? If you have AC 18, an attacker with +5 needs to roll a 13 or higher, which will happen 40% of the time. If you only have AC 16, they only need to roll an 11, which will happen 50% of the time. 10% improvement. Which is also what you showed-- 8/20 vs 10/20 is the same as 4/10 vs 5/10, or 40% vs 50%.

bid

2016-10-15, 06:39 PM

Hmm? If you have AC 18, an attacker with +5 needs to roll a 13 or higher, which will happen 40% of the time. If you only have AC 16, they only need to roll an 11, which will happen 50% of the time. 10% improvement. Which is also what you showed-- 8/20 vs 10/20 is the same as 4/10 vs 5/10, or 40% vs 50%.
No.
percentage point vs percentage

Ignoring crit for a moment, hitting on 20 only vs hitting on 19+ will double your DPR. That'd be an 100% improvement, not a 5% improvement.

mgshamster

2016-10-15, 06:51 PM

No.
percentage point vs percentage

Ignoring crit for a moment, hitting on 20 only vs hitting on 19+ will double your DPR. That'd be an 100% improvement, not a 5% improvement.

Is it still "lying with statistics" if your audience simply misinterprets the statistics used?

Plaguescarred

2016-10-15, 07:16 PM

I use in my campaigns either standard array, point-buy or stats roll but they must be rolled in font of me with real dice and no virtual dice roller.

If a PC end up with very high stats at least everyone at the table will have seen him roll and it thus will feel both more lucky and fair this way.

bid

2016-10-16, 08:22 AM

Is it still "lying with statistics" if your audience simply misinterprets the statistics used?
You're gonna have to explain that. Do you consider calling "hitting 8 times instead of 10" a 10% improvement a lie? I don't.

mgshamster

2016-10-16, 08:40 AM

You're gonna have to explain that. Do you consider calling "hitting 8 times instead of 10" a 10% improvement a lie? I don't.

Oh, I was just making an outside observation.

Both cases are true. The 20 to 19 is both a 5% shift and a 100% shift. It just depends on what aspect of statistic you use to explain it.

In marketing, one can make something sound a lot better by technically reporting an accurate statistic but hiding reality behind the numberd. I've also seen it in fear tactics. And it's absolutely rife in pseudoscience. That's where the phrase "lying through statistics" comes from.

So you were correct, but from his perspective it was wrong, because he misinterprited the statistics.

I wasn't accusing you of lying, and I apologize that it came off that way. I was just making an offhand comment that I thought was amusing.