Scion: How do Virtues actually play out in game?

[Talakeal]

My group is starting a new Scion campaign and reading over the core book the rules seemed pretty solid except for virtues.

AFAICT playing the game by RAW you have almost no control over your character due to your virtues dictating your actions, as even the least virtuous character has a 40% chance of being compelled to act. A strict reading seems to allow a smart enemy to corral Scions like sheep by constantly exploiting their virtues and forcing them to take obviously self destructive actions.

It looks like the Virtue system is the ultimate tool for a control freak DM, and would make for a highly antagonistic play experience. It also feels like the game supports teamwork, focus, and player unity about as well as a D&D game where everyone was playing a Kender Paladin who prestiged into Frenzied Berserker.

But, this just from reading the book. While I doubt the RAI is nearly as strict as the RAW, I still can't help but wonder how the game actually works out in play.

[The_Snark]

Generally speaking, they get ignored until and unless it's dramatically appropriate for them to come into play. A Scion with high Vengeance might be asked to roll if the party tries to team up with the person who killed their parents/sibling/pet dog in their backstory, even if it's just a temporary alliance against a greater evil. Someone with Courage might be asked to roll if they try to run away in the middle of a fight. Someone with Order may need to suppress it if the party is planning a jailbreak.

Sometimes people who want a more formal rule governing this steal a bit from Exalted, and rule that only Virtues rated at 3+ affect you that way. This way, you still have Virtues compelling behavior, but players get a lot more leeway in choosing their fatal flaws.

Scion has a lot of problems - and I mean a lot, it is probably White Wolf's least balanced game - but Virtues being obnoxious isn't one I've ever seen in play. You're a lot more likely to run afoul of the soak rules, or various unbalanced Knacks/Boons, or the way Epic Attributes scale if you get that far.

[Friv]

My group is starting a new Scion campaign and reading over the core book the rules seemed pretty solid except for virtues.

*ahahahah ahahahahaha hahahaha hahahahahahah ahahahahahahah ahahahahahah ahahahahahaha hahahahahahha ahahhah ahhhh......... hhhaaahh..... hahahah.....*

Good luck. Just.... just good luck.


AFAICT playing the game by RAW you have almost no control over your character due to your virtues dictating your actions, as even the least virtuous character has a 40% chance of being compelled to act. A strict reading seems to allow a smart enemy to corral Scions like sheep by constantly exploiting their virtues and forcing them to take obviously self destructive actions.

It looks like the Virtue system is the ultimate tool for a control freak DM, and would make for a highly antagonistic play experience. It also feels like the game supports teamwork, focus, and player unity about as well as a D&D game where everyone was playing a Kender Paladin who prestiged into Frenzied Berserker.

But, this just from reading the book. While I doubt the RAI is nearly as strict as the RAW, I still can't help but wonder how the game actually works out in play.

So... yes and no.

The first thing is, as a rule your Scion is only going to have one or two high Virtues. You only have to roll against Virtues that are rated at 3+, and you only actually need to have one of them. So your Aesir might only really have Courage as his thing; he won't ever back down from a fight, he'll prefer to fight his own enemy and let the other players do the same, and he won't surrender. But he won't have to worry about any other issues.

The second thing is that if you do want to go against your Virtue, and you're worried about giving in, you can always just spend a Willpower point. Since your two-die stunts will allow you to recover Willpower, this is not such a devastating thing to have happen. If you do decide to roll, yeah, usually you're going to grit your teeth and charge in.

The third thing is that, as a rule, you should be boosting Virtues that mainly emphasize what you already want to do, and those Virtues are going to help you survive situations that they land you in. If you aren't built to fight solo, don't take Courage. If you want to be a roguish outlaw, don't take Duty. Every Pantheon has one or two Virtues that aren't going to get you into trouble that PCs aren't in all the time anyway. In general, I would divide the Virtues as follows:

* Conviction, Endurance and Loyalty are the "I'm a PC" Virtues. They make you do things that PCs should generally be doing anyway, and give bonuses to PC-like behaviour.
* Duty, Harmony, Order, and Piety are the "society" Virtues, which you take to reflect someone who follows a certain cause or style. They can be restrictive, but probably in ways you were going for anyway.
* Courage, Valor, and Vegeance are the "combat" Virtues. They push you into fighting with certain tactics and styles, and make you take on fights you might not want. Don't take them if that's a problem.
* Expression and Intellect are easy Virtues to take if you want to focus on edge cases; their requirements aren't as punishing, and they don't have as many uses.

[Talakeal]

*ahahahah ahahahahaha hahahaha hahahahahahah ahahahahahahah ahahahahahah ahahahahahaha hahahahahahha ahahhah ahhhh......... hhhaaahh..... hahahah.....*

Good luck. Just.... just good luck.



So... yes and no.

The first thing is, as a rule your Scion is only going to have one or two high Virtues. You only have to roll against Virtues that are rated at 3+, and you only actually need to have one of them. So your Aesir might only really have Courage as his thing; he won't ever back down from a fight, he'll prefer to fight his own enemy and let the other players do the same, and he won't surrender. But he won't have to worry about any other issues.

The second thing is that if you do want to go against your Virtue, and you're worried about giving in, you can always just spend a Willpower point. Since your two-die stunts will allow you to recover Willpower, this is not such a devastating thing to have happen. If you do decide to roll, yeah, usually you're going to grit your teeth and charge in.

The third thing is that, as a rule, you should be boosting Virtues that mainly emphasize what you already want to do, and those Virtues are going to help you survive situations that they land you in. If you aren't built to fight solo, don't take Courage. If you want to be a roguish outlaw, don't take Duty. Every Pantheon has one or two Virtues that aren't going to get you into trouble that PCs aren't in all the time anyway. In general, I would divide the Virtues as follows:

* Conviction, Endurance and Loyalty are the "I'm a PC" Virtues. They make you do things that PCs should generally be doing anyway, and give bonuses to PC-like behaviour.
* Duty, Harmony, Order, and Piety are the "society" Virtues, which you take to reflect someone who follows a certain cause or style. They can be restrictive, but probably in ways you were going for anyway.
* Courage, Valor, and Vegeance are the "combat" Virtues. They push you into fighting with certain tactics and styles, and make you take on fights you might not want. Don't take them if that's a problem.
* Expression and Intellect are easy Virtues to take if you want to focus on edge cases; their requirements aren't as punishing, and they don't have as many uses.

Is the 3+ thing an actual rule? I don't see it in the book and the poster above you implied that it is an Exalted rule that people port over to Scion as a house rule.

Yeah, if that is the case then the game works a lot better. My character is an intellectual rogue type from the Aztec pantheon, and from my reading of it even though I have a 1 courage and duty I will still have a 40% chance to go into a suicidal situation every time an enemy calls me out or a police officer tells me to stop in the name of the law.

[Friv]

Is the 3+ thing an actual rule? I don't see it in the book and the poster above you implied that it is an Exalted rule that people port over to Scion as a house rule.

Of course it's a rule, it's right on page...

It's on...

It...


GOD DAMMIT SCION WHY ARE YOU SO BAD AT EVERYTHING :smallfurious: