Revised Ranger(2) or Fighter(1) for Blade Singer Build

[Grizlock]

So, I've been toiling over a semi-optimized blade singer build. I say semi optimized, because the SCAG cantrips just don't work well with multiple attacks. Bladesinger seems pretty sound defensively, but lacks at will damage. I came across a post where by using haste you can cantrip (or spell) + single haste attack + offhand bonus action for some decent damage. The requirement is you take the two weapon fighting style for the offhand dex bonus that only fighters and rangers get. The old ranger seemed pretty weak, but the UA version actually is tempting. This is a campaign in progress, so I'll likely start at level 5.

Fighter (1)
+ Second Wind
+ Con Save (Concentration)
+ Cantrip + Haste Attack + Bonus Two weapon attack comes online at level 6

Ranger (2)
- Loses 1 more level of wizard spell casting (but same slot progression)
- Dex Save (Decent, but not as good as Con)
+ Advantage on initiative
+ Advantage on first round attacks (this would include spells with attack rolls) when acting first
+ 2 1st level ranger spells (Cure Wounds, and Good berry to help with party healing)
+ 1 skill over fighter
+ 2 weapon damage vs favored enemy (with haste and two weapon this maxes out at +8 a round vs favored)
- Wait another level for Bladesinger capstone to come online.

Thoughts on the comparison? Also, whats commonly accepted as a better save? Will or Dex?

Right now party is Barbarian, Fighter, Fighter, Bard, Rogue

[Callin]

Sounds like you got a bunch of frontliners already I dont see the point of adding another one

[PeteNutButter]

Rangers wisdom requirement is a pretty big disincentive to combine it with bladesinger who already needs high dex and int... unless you roll stats. Also as a front liner with a d6 hit die con needs to be about 16, or you'll end up getting blown over by a strong breeze.

If you start at level 5 the fighter option only puts you behind one level. The ranger wouldn't let you do your haste trick until level 7.

But by level 8 you'll do more just taking extra attack over the cantrip. Weapon + mod is more damage than 1d8, and the rider effects are not reliable. Only by level 11 does it start to get competitive to use the cantrip. But by that point you'll have at least 5th level spells and should have way more to add to the group by casting than wading into melee... #bladesingerissues

Another issue is you'll have a feat tax of warcaster to be able to cast shield spell while dual wielding. A bladesinger that can't cast shield is a dead bladesinger. You can partially work around this by juggling weapons.

The TWF with haste gimmick is much better on characters who lack extra attack as a way for them to get more out of the economy. Like say a fighter 1/paladin 2/sorc x...

And there is the crutch of 5e. So many ****ing builds come back to "Well a paladorc could do it better."

All the utility and more plus the ability to smite making your melee attacks worthwhile and more hit points to boot.

[Citan]

So, I've been toiling over a semi-optimized blade singer build. I say semi optimized, because the SCAG cantrips just don't work well with multiple attacks. Bladesinger seems pretty sound defensively, but lacks at will damage. I came across a post where by using haste you can cantrip (or spell) + single haste attack + offhand bonus action for some decent damage. The requirement is you take the two weapon fighting style for the offhand dex bonus that only fighters and rangers get. The old ranger seemed pretty weak, but the UA version actually is tempting. This is a campaign in progress, so I'll likely start at level 5.
Right now party is Barbarian, Fighter, Fighter, Bard, Rogue
I'm not sure how much you need more frontliners XD, but could make a nice thematic party though.

Beyond that, I'd say Fighter is the better choice. Ranger could be good in essence but...
- WIS requirement on a character needing DEX, INT and CON already.
- Hunter's Mark is unavailable since you already has Haste.
- Fighting Style is also available to Fighter, earlier.

So definitively Fighter 1. Since you want to be a frontliner with Haste, you should also start as Fighter to get Constitution saving throws proficiencies. Between that and Bladesong, you should get reliable Haste even with only a 13-14 in Constitution.


And there is the crutch of 5e. So many ****ing builds come back to "Well a paladorc could do it better."

All the utility and more plus the ability to smite making your melee attacks worthwhile and more hit points to boot.
I find a bit daring that you would say that, when the topic is about a Bladesinger Wizard. Permanent 1st and 2nd level spells, the largest number of spell known and prepared, 60% of all rituals, potentially better base AC...
Whether you compare with Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 18 or Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14, Bladesinger Wizards holds his stand without effort. Sure you don't have the powerful smite ability, but you are a much better caster overall (even taking into account the Metamagics, which I love). ;)

It is just a very different playstyle (although I do personally prefer Palasorc because I prefer being more sturdy and better balance between martial and spells, but that's a matter of taste). :)

[Tanarii]

Not to be a downer, but this was my first thought too:

Sounds like you got a bunch of frontliners already I dont see the point of adding another one

In addition, blade singers aren't front liners anyway. Unless you're playing short low level only game, I can see coming to regret investing so heavily in melee (feats, stats, level) in attempt to beef up what's meant to be a fall-back/ secondary option into something primary.

Otoh my only experience with MC is AL, home of the optimizer. They never seem to regret the opportunity cost to MC to make pew pew pew melee optimization builds, so maybe you won't either. :smallbiggrin:

As a side note, pew pew pew for at-will melee doesn't really fit as well as for ranged (or magical ranged) builds. I'd have gone with 'hulk smash' but I'm assuming this will be a Dex Bladesinger instead of Str, given you're looking at Ranger. Maybe 'stabbity-stab-stab'?

[Specter]

I guess if your campaign sees a lot of one kind of enemy, go Ranger for the extra damage. If not, Fighter. You'll be tempted to take Action Surge too.

[Callin]

By frontliner I mean someone who engages in melee combat. Lower HP is counteracted by increased defense and the Extra Attack feature for more weapon attacks. Yes you are still a Wizard but one who uses a weapon. Traditionally. So I disagree with Tanarii. Its not a Secondary Option. You weave spell and blade into a deadly dance that compliments each other.

I would skip Bladesinger completly and go Theurgy instead with that group makup. However on the topic of which one would I choose. I would pick fighter first for the con save.