Kazumi and Daigo: Fighters or Warriors? And what level?

[mockingbyrd7]

The title says it all... I'm assuming 1st or 2nd level warriors, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that they could be fighters, and higher level than you'd think.

What DO you think?

[Talyn]

Well, as I theorized in my post on another thread, I personally think that by gaining names and plot significance, Kazumi and Daigo have actually been "retconned" by the universe into fighters. That is, when they were background characters, they were 2nd level warriors like most of the militia - but now they are supporting characters with the potential to become cohorts, and that means PC Class levels.

This would explain how Daigo got back up... a PC class level means max HP at first levels and a more generous hit die (d10 vs. d8). It also means two bonus feats they didn't have before, one of which might have been toughness. So, let's say that Daigo the 2nd level warrior had 11 hit points (9 for 2d8 hd +2 CON). Daigo the 2nd level fighter, on the other hand, has 20 hit points (10 + 1d10 + 2 CON +3 Toughness)! That's enough to take him from dying (-4 hp from an original 11) to hurt-but-okay (5 hit points from an original 20) - which neatly matches what happened in the strip, too.

[mockingbyrd7]

Interesting theory. I tend to agree. :smallsmile:

On a similar topic, how long do you think they'll stay with the PCs?

[David Argall]

They will stay with the PCs until the party heads off to the next Gate. They are AC NPC and will not be leaving the city.

[Oberon]

I'm pretty sure every human who is able to will want to leave the city now, by I know what you mean.

[kpenguin]

Well, as I theorized in my post on another thread, I personally think that by gaining names and plot significance, Kazumi and Daigo have actually been "retconned" by the universe into fighters. That is, when they were background characters, they were 2nd level warriors like most of the militia - but now they are supporting characters with the potential to become cohorts, and that means PC Class levels.

This would explain how Daigo got back up... a PC class level means max HP at first levels and a more generous hit die (d10 vs. d8). It also means two bonus feats they didn't have before, one of which might have been toughness. So, let's say that Daigo the 2nd level warrior had 11 hit points (9 for 2d8 hd +2 CON). Daigo the 2nd level fighter, on the other hand, has 20 hit points (10 + 1d10 + 2 CON +3 Toughness)! That's enough to take him from dying (-4 hp from an original 11) to hurt-but-okay (5 hit points from an original 20) - which neatly matches what happened in the strip, too.

How would he have +2 CON as a lvl 2 warrior? As a holder of an NPC class, he would only have a nonelite array of hitpoints, with the most being +1 CON. I assume he gained an elite array if he upgraded to fighter.

[Roderick_BR]

I'd risk low-level warriors. They were not any kind of elite character, just part of Hinjo's troops that happened to survive the hob's arrow swarm.
The retcon thing could work. They could at least get a full 1st hit die and better ability scores as elite characters, even if they still have a NPC class.

As for what they'll do, I'm betting they will stay with Hinjo, alongside Lien, Cap'n Axe, and the rest of the troops that survived/fleed, or are guiding the ships used to evacuate the city.

Edit: Wohoo. Ninja'ed on the elite thing.

[Kurald Galain]

The DM hadn't made up stats earlier, but now that they have names they'll turn out to be a tenth-level blademaster and a twelfth-level gish for some reason :smalltongue:

[Roderick_BR]

The DM hadn't made up stats earlier, but now that they have names they'll turn out to be a tenth-level blademaster and a twelfth-level gish for some reason :smalltongue:
Even better. They'll be swordsages or warblades.

[Chronos]

Much as I like the idea that having names turned them from Warriors into Fighters, there's also a lot of potential for humor in keeping them Warriors, then letting them level up to insane heights. Then you could have a lowly Warrior, not even a PC class, kicking butt just because he's level 20.

[Querzis]

Whatever what their level was BEFORE, now they are the only survivors of this battle who actually gain XP from killing hobgobelins. In other words, when the battle ends, they will get the XP from the 10 000 hobgobelins who died and will become level 8 while the hobgolins have to share the xp between the 20 000 survivors and dont gain any level.

Thats just how D&D work, no matter how stupid it is.

[Chronos]

In other words, when the battle ends, they will get the XP from the 10 000 hobgobelins who died and will become level 8 while the hobgolins have to share the xp between the 20 000 survivors and dont gain any level.No, they'll get full xp for any they killed themselves, and a share of any killed by them or their companions when they were accompianied by up to three of the main characters. Oddly, when they were accompianied by a small number of main characters, those main characters would also get a little experience. But they don't get any xp at all for monsters killed not in their presence.

The math:When Daigo and Katsumi Kato are by themselves, they're a "party" with average level 1, so a CR 1 encounter is worth 300 xp. First-level hobgoblin warriors (which almost all of the enemy can be assumed to be) are CR 1/2, so each one is worth a total of 150 xp to a 1st-level party. So for every hob either of them killed after they left Elan, they each got 75 xp.

Now, when they're with up 3 main characters (say, Elan, Durkon, and Hinjo), the average level of the party is 8 (the Order is level 13, and I'm assuming that Hinjo is about the same). A level 8 party can still gain xp from CR 1 encounters, but only 200 points, since it's less of a challenge. Each hob is then 100 xp, which is divided up among the party members (including the high level chars), so during that time, any hob killed by any of them would be worth 20 xp each.

If, on the other hand, they were with 4 or more main characters, the average party level would be 9, and a 9th-level party doesn't gain any xp from CR 1 encounters. So while they're with that many of the main characters, they won't gain any xp no matter how many hobs they kill (unless they happen to kill a higher-level one, like an officer or one of the clerics).

[NeonRonin]

I think it'd be kinda neat if the two of them decide to multiclass to Paladin... after all, the Sapphire Guard is in need of a recruitment drive, like, yesterday. And I personally like the idea of retconning them from Warriors to Fighters. Though, be honest, to have survived what's happened on the wall for this long, I'm wondering if maybe they aren't 3rd level instead of 1st or Second.

Just a thought... it could just be dumb luck they survived so long.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Daigo was bumped to second or third level warrior, while Kazumi Kato is now a third level fighter!

You have to have a last name to become a fighter, otherwise you remain a warrior. If Daigo gets hurt enough again to tell someone his name (probably Elan, needing a last name to complete a rhyming scheme), Daigo will make the full jump to third or even fourth level fighter.

I wonder if Rich has plans for an Epic Level Commoner. I mean, the rules are there, aren't they?

[fangthane]

No, they'll get full xp for any they killed themselves, and a share of any killed by them or their companions when they were accompianied by up to three of the main characters. Oddly, when they were accompianied by a small number of main characters, those main characters would also get a little experience. But they don't get any xp at all for monsters killed not in their presence.

The math:

Is probably accurate, but the way exp works has been misunderstood.

Each character gets exp out of any encounter according to his own level, not the average party level.

This pair gets a 1/n share of the experience a party of their level would have received for dealing with any threat they directly encountered, where n is the total number of persons of any level who took part against that threat. A pair of second-level warriors helping a 5-person party of level 15 characters to deal with hobgoblins will gain 1/7 (each) of the experience they'd have received for dealing with the same hobgoblins solo, and 2/7 of the experience they'd get if they were still paired but lacked upper-level support. Of course, they'll also earn that exp faster and easier than they would alone. It's up to the DM to ensure that such powerleveling isn't encouraged. (i.e. you might let them get away with it once, but try it again and out come the Burning Hands and Fireballs, and the lowbies are sporting X-shaped contacts.) The 15th level characters, of course, gain 1/7 of zero.

Party level is just a convenient tool to determine appropriate challenge levels; otherwise, you're penalising large parties twice. They receive a smaller share of the exp because there are more of them, but if you base exp rewards on average party level, you're also reducing the initial reward before it's even been split.

[mockingbyrd7]

I think it'd be kinda neat if the two of them decide to multiclass to Paladin... after all, the Sapphire Guard is in need of a recruitment drive, like, yesterday. And I personally like the idea of retconning them from Warriors to Fighters. Though, be honest, to have survived what's happened on the wall for this long, I'm wondering if maybe they aren't 3rd level instead of 1st or Second.

Just a thought... it could just be dumb luck they survived so long.

Oooooooooooooh... Yes, I could definitely see them as Paladins.

[EpicDisaster]

I'd call them Peasant 2 Fighter 2.
And they'll last at least a little while since they're being expected to die.

[Citizen Joe]

Actually, with the destruction of the sapphire, there is nothing left to guard, thus no need for paladins.

[Chronos]

Is probably accurate, but the way exp works has been misunderstood.

Each character gets exp out of any encounter according to his own level, not the average party level.Ah, they must have changed that since my books. And unfortunately, that's one of the few core mechanics which isn't under the OGL, so I wasn't able to confirm online.

Party level is just a convenient tool to determine appropriate challenge levels; otherwise, you're penalising large parties twice. They receive a smaller share of the exp because there are more of them, but if you base exp rewards on average party level, you're also reducing the initial reward before it's even been split.Here, I'm not following you. A single fifth-level character has an average party level of 5. A party of 20 fifth-level characters has an average party level of 5. Both parties would get the same total experience for any given encounter.

[Gol_Stoan]

The DMs I game with give a set amount of xp to everybody based on how they worked together as a group, how hard the overall session was, and good roleplay. I find that most DMs each have their own methods of awarding xp, the book is just a guideline really.

[Omnipotent_One]

Actually, with the destruction of the sapphire, there is nothing left to guard, thus no need for paladins.

They're going to have to reconstruct the sapphire at some point to prevent the snarl's prison from tearing more, so yes, the sapphire guard will need to be reborn.

[TheAlmightyOne]

I always figure them for paladins. But I could be wrong. Also if they arent, and paladins are only trained to protect the saphirre, does that mean Lien and Hinjo are the only paladins left in the whole ootsverse (alonside the 2 or 3 paladins Xykon saw on teevo)

[Chronos]

I find that most DMs each have their own methods of awarding xp, the book is just a guideline really.You're saying that in your experience, most DMs ignore the rules and make something up, when it seems appropriate? Hallelujia, there's hope for this generation of roleplayers after all.


Also if they arent, and paladins are only trained to protect the saphirre, does that mean Lien and Hinjo are the only paladins left in the whole ootsverse (alonside the 2 or 3 paladins Xykon saw on teevo)Why would you think that? There's no law that says that only one city in the world is allowed to have paladins. And even if we just look at Azure City (which admittedly had more paladins than most places), there's also still O-Chul, plus the many paladins who were away on various missions at the time.