if you could add 3 spells to the sorcerer spell list

[Spiritchaser]

I'm not sure if this would make up all the ground between wizards and sorcerers but just a few choice picks could synergize particularly well with metamagic and make one check of a difference

I'll start:
1. Foresight. Extend it, rest and twin it. Yup, that's power
2. Vampiric touch: cast it, then attack, drain and cast something else
3. Death ward, although not as cool as 1 and 2.

[ZX6Rob]

I don't know if I could pick three without looking through the book for a while, but I wonder...

So, I've already revised the Sorcerer quite heavily in my home games, switching them to the point-based casting system out of the DMG and adding bonus spells known of 1st through 5th level for each Origin. In the case of the Wild Mage, those bonus spells change every day at random. That said, this question has me thinking about something new.

You know how the Eldritch Knight is restricted to two schools (Abjuration and Evocation, by the book) for almost all of their small list of spells known, but at certain levels, they get to pick from any school? I wonder if it would be worth it to consider an Origin or house-rule that allowed Sorcerers to do the same. Like, you normally get your subset of Wizard spells to pick from at every level, but at levels, I don't know, 4, 9, 14, and 19 or something, you could instead pick from the Wizard list for any spell level for which you can cast a spell.

The real issue, as noted in the original post, is how non-Sorcerer spells interact with the Metamagic feature. Then again, most of those would be available to a Wizard/Sorcerer multiclass already, so I hesitate to think there's anything direly game-breaking, lest we'd've heard about it by now.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Absorb Elements is a perfect match for any element-themed sorc.

[JumboWheat01]

1 - Find Familiar (because reasons)
2 - Call Lightning (For Bronze/Blue and Storm)
3 - Melf's Acid Arrow (For Black/Copper love)

[Arnie82]

Dissonant whisper is the only one I would really like. Cast booming blade with your action, dissonant whisper as a bonus action with sorcery points, then with warcaster, booming blade again. This would make for a fun front line caster with dragon sorcerer.

Granted, a dip into bard can easily achieve this.

[famousringo]

It's funny, but a lot of the spells I most desire from the wizard list don't mesh well with metamagic. Find Familiar, Absorb Elements, Flaming Sphere, and Bigby's Hand. They're desirable because they don't need to be quickened, they work with bonus actions, reactions or get their own actions, leaving the wizard able to freely cast something else next turn. They increase a wizard's action economy without paying a long rest resource tax.

One exception is Tasha's. It's a nice Twinnable CC that never really goes obsolete. Sorcerers get access to plenty of those at level 2, but Tasha's is pretty much the only one at 1st level, for earlier access and cheaper Twinning.

But to answer the question, I'd add 3 unique spells to sorcerer rather than plundering other classes. At least one would be powerful enough to basically be a class feature (like Find Familiar, Bless, and Hex are), and they'd revolve around draconic, chaotic, or raw magical power themes.

[Arnie82]

It's funny, but a lot of the spells I most desire from the wizard list don't mesh well with metamagic. Find Familiar, Absorb Elements, Flaming Sphere, and Bigby's Hand. They're desirable because they don't need to be quickened, they work with bonus actions, reactions or get their own actions, leaving the wizard able to freely cast something else next turn. They increase a wizard's action economy without paying a long rest resource tax.

One exception is Tasha's. It's a nice Twinnable CC that never really goes obsolete. Sorcerers get access to plenty of those at level 2, but Tasha's is pretty much the only one at 1st level, for earlier access and cheaper Twinning.

But to answer the question, I'd add 3 unique spells to sorcerer rather than plundering other classes. At least one would be powerful enough to basically be a class feature (like Find Familiar, Bless, and Hex are), and they'd revolve around draconic, chaotic, or raw magical power themes.

Tasha's is an amazing spell!

[sky red hunter]

Any healing spell? - even a bard gets cure wounds, healing word, lesser and greater restoration, mass cure wounds, resurrection, and power word heal.
inflict wounds - why can't a sorcerer do this?
heat metal - for obvious reason, this one spell would be unreal for sorcerers! twinned to make two guys drop their weapons or take damage!

thematically a power that can be both wild and comes innately from the blood it annoys me that a sorcerer is so restricted in its list, surely at certain points in a sorcerers levelling they should have a power similar to the bards and take spells from any list? f**king bards have better spell choices than a pure caster?

[Sigreid]

I would rather they just be able to pick 3 from the wizard list, at their discretion, that match their feel for their character. Especially with the random nature of sorcerers, it would be appropriate if they had differences as their nature manifested.

[Gastronomie]

Evard's Black Tentacles is something they deserve to have.
Feeblemind is, again, something they deserve to have.
Foresight is something that would be hell broken if they had.

EDIT: Forgot Wall of Force, Otto's Irresistible Dance, and Maze. Thought of True Polymorph as well, but again, it'd be hell broken.

[Byke]

The only thing that would make up ground is either Domain lists from Favored Soul or just merge Sorcerer and Wizard spell lists and allow Sorcerer 20-25 spells known.

The current segregation of spell lists make no sense whatsoever.

[TheUser]

The only thing that would make up ground is either Domain lists from Favored Soul or just merge Sorcerer and Wizard spell lists and allow Sorcerer 20-25 spells known.

The current segregation of spell lists make no sense whatsoever.

Until you realise that meta-magic is bonkers good and opens up the potential for abuse with the wizard's spell list....

[PeteNutButter]

1 - Find Familiar (because reasons)
2 - Call Lightning (For Bronze/Blue and Storm)
3 - Melf's Acid Arrow (For Black/Copper love)

I totally didn't realize Melf's Acid Arrow wasn't a sorcerer spell. WTF! They really don't let you pick anything but fire for draconic sorcerers. Why on earth would they take out a classic element damage type spell from a class that can add their cha to those? It's not like it's OP, since you only get your +cha to damage on the first hit. :smallmad: Without homebrew, fire is really the only option that isn't sub-optimal.


The only thing that would make up ground is either Domain lists from Favored Soul or just merge Sorcerer and Wizard spell lists and allow Sorcerer 20-25 spells known.

The current segregation of spell lists make no sense whatsoever.

Yeah there really isn't much reason for this, unless they created a list of spells that were sorcerer only. That'd be more thematic, as different origins of magic can do different things.

[Byke]

Until you realise that meta-magic is bonkers good and opens up the potential for abuse with the wizard's spell list....

There are a few that can be abused and they could easily be addressed by WoC. IE can't metamagic 9th level spells....

[DizzyWood]

I kind of like that a sorcerer has limited spells it feels right for an innate caster. They are out in the world figuring out how magic works for them and not studying away the days. So I feel a sorcerer should get some non spell "powers" at various lvls. Like maybe some sort of magic resistance at a higher lvl. And at lower lvl some jinx dice. I would need someone better versed in dice mechanics than me to work this out but... When you are the only target of a spell attack with no save you can roll a jinx die x number of times per long rest. If you roll "A-B" the caster takes 1 d4 damage, "C-D" you take half damage ect ect ect. SOMETHING to show that you are as much a part of magic as it is of you.

[SharkForce]

Until you realise that meta-magic is bonkers good and opens up the potential for abuse with the wizard's spell list....

such as?

what supremely balanced spells are there that suddenly become incredibly broken when combined with metamagic, such that sorcerers could not possibly have access to them without destroying game balance?

edit: to clarify, i'm not saying metamagic isn't good. i'm simply saying that i have not seen any actual solid examples when people claim the combination of metamagic plus actually have a decent spell list (not necessarily spells known) is overpowered.

[Gastronomie]

such as?

what supremely balanced spells are there that suddenly become incredibly broken when combined with metamagic, such that sorcerers could not possibly have access to them without destroying game balance?Foresight and True Polymorph. To be fair, they're not really balanced from the start, but at least they made sense as level 9 spells.

But TBH what Sorcerers really want is not that much of more spells in their list, but rather more spells known and access to more Metamagic options. At least that's what I thought when I played Sorcerers.

[DizzyWood]

Foresight and True Polymorph. To be fair, they're not really balanced from the start, but at least they made sense as level 9 spells.

But TBH what Sorcerers really want is not that much of more spells in their list, but rather more spells known and access to more Metamagic options. At least that's what I thought when I played Sorcerers.

Yes! Honestly at the very least Spell Points should recharge on a short rest. But a way to expand Meta Magic at later lvs would be very nice.

[PeteNutButter]

Foresight and True Polymorph. To be fair, they're not really balanced from the start, but at least they made sense as level 9 spells.

But TBH what Sorcerers really want is not that much of more spells in their list, but rather more spells known and access to more Metamagic options. At least that's what I thought when I played Sorcerers.

For clarification, what would make those two spells broken on a sorcerer?

[Gastronomie]

Yes! Honestly at the very least Spell Points should recharge on a short rest. But a way to expand Meta Magic at later lvs would be very nice.I think that's more of "uber-overpowered" than "very least". The number of Sorcery Points is fine as it is - but Sorcerers need more options of what they can do with those Sorcery Points. Namely, being able to select more Metamagic options. Not 2 but 3 at level 3, 4 at level 7, 5 at level 13, 6 at level 17, something like that wouldn't hurt. And please, more spells known.

For clarification, what would make those two spells broken on a sorcerer?Twinned Spell. Being able to cast Haste, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph on two targets at the same time is already strong...

Especially goes with Polymorph, since it doesn't even require concentration.

[SharkForce]

Foresight and True Polymorph. To be fair, they're not really balanced from the start, but at least they made sense as level 9 spells.

But TBH what Sorcerers really want is not that much of more spells in their list, but rather more spells known and access to more Metamagic options. At least that's what I thought when I played Sorcerers.

foresight is with twin, i presume? not as broken as the wish spell which they already get (foresight is good, but it is FAR from bein the best 9th level spell, even if you twin it), and please let's stop pretending the game is balanced at the levels where casters get 9th level spells.

true polymorph i am likewise guessing you intend to combine with twin. this is definitely a stronger argument for stuff that is overpowered (since, unlike foresight, true polymorph already actually does some pretty insane things to game balance to the point where you could argue that it is the "strongest" level 9 spell, though it does have some competition). but, it's also still expensive, and again, when we're talking about level 9 spells game balance has pretty much been shot in the head, thrown out the 10th story window onto adamantine spikes that are poisoned and on fire, then buried in an active volcanoe that was located at the impact point of a meteor full of conductive metal that was simultaneously being struck by lightning.

twin true polymorph means that i can turn the party permanently into ancient dragons at a rate of 2/day instead of 1/day. obviously, that option is indeed more powerful, but ultimately it is more likely to mean that instead of pulling the super-cheese of permanently turning the party into dragons at a cost that essentially means nothing (spell slots while not adventuring), the sorcerer is more likely to temporarily turn 2 members of the party into dragons at a high cost in sorcerer points and their 9th level spell slot while actually adventuring (since spellcasters arguably lose quite a bit from being turned into a dragon, it's a lot less appealing for them than it is for warriors). both situations lead to ridiculous amounts of power, but i'm not at all convinced the sorcerer method is inherently more than a problem.

[TheUser]

For clarification, what would make those two spells broken on a sorcerer?

Being able to cast them with Subtle spell without threat of counterspell.

[RulesJD]

Evard's Black Tentacles is something they deserve to have.
Feeblemind is, again, something they deserve to have.
Foresight is something that would be hell broken if they had.

EDIT: Forgot Wall of Force, Otto's Irresistible Dance, and Maze. Thought of True Polymorph as well, but again, it'd be hell broken.

From a powergamer's perspective:

1. Absorb Elements. Fantastic low level spell that remains useful at all character levels (plus Paladin/Sorcs would become even more ridiculously OP)

2. Wall of Force. The most powerful mid-level spell and also remains useful from the moment you get it onwards.

3. Maze. It is just monstrously broken, more so than even the level 9 spells including Shapechange (excluding Wish, obviously). Bypasses Legendary Saves, magic resistance, no proficiency bonus, guaranteed at least 1 round'ish of no BBEG, Intelligence check DC of 20 = aaaahahahaha to almost anything trying to make that check.

[DizzyWood]

I think that's more of "uber-overpowered" than "very least". The number of Sorcery Points is fine as it is - but Sorcerers need more options of what they can do with those Sorcery Points. Namely, being able to select more Metamagic options. Not 2 but 3 at level 3, 4 at level 7, 5 at level 13, 6 at level 17, something like that wouldn't hurt. And please, more spells known.
Twinned Spell. Being able to cast Haste, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph on two targets at the same time is already strong...

Especially goes with Polymorph, since it doesn't even require concentration.

Hmm I should remember I play with a DM who creates encounters to work WITH player skills instead of against. So I am able to get a TON of use out of what metta magic I do have. With other DMs I could see your point.

[PeteNutButter]

Being able to cast them with Subtle spell without threat of counterspell.

No, they are both long duration spells that can be cast hour(s) before combat.


foresight is with twin, i presume? not as broken as the wish spell which they already get (foresight is good, but it is FAR from bein the best 9th level spell, even if you twin it), and please let's stop pretending the game is balanced at the levels where casters get 9th level spells.

true polymorph i am likewise guessing you intend to combine with twin. this is definitely a stronger argument for stuff that is overpowered (since, unlike foresight, true polymorph already actually does some pretty insane things to game balance to the point where you could argue that it is the "strongest" level 9 spell, though it does have some competition). but, it's also still expensive, and again, when we're talking about level 9 spells game balance has pretty much been shot in the head, thrown out the 10th story window onto adamantine spikes that are poisoned and on fire, then buried in an active volcanoe that was located at the impact point of a meteor full of conductive metal that was simultaneously being struck by lightning.

twin true polymorph means that i can turn the party permanently into ancient dragons at a rate of 2/day instead of 1/day. obviously, that option is indeed more powerful, but ultimately it is more likely to mean that instead of pulling the super-cheese of permanently turning the party into dragons at a cost that essentially means nothing (spell slots while not adventuring), the sorcerer is more likely to temporarily turn 2 members of the party into dragons at a high cost in sorcerer points and their 9th level spell slot while actually adventuring (since spellcasters arguably lose quite a bit from being turned into a dragon, it's a lot less appealing for them than it is for warriors). both situations lead to ridiculous amounts of power, but i'm not at all convinced the sorcerer method is inherently more than a problem.

High level play is inherently imbalanced, especially with 9th level spells. But unlike other things, such as combining two 11th melee class abilities, the game allows for this. A wizard 17/sorc 3 could very easily decide to make metamagic his capstone.

If it were so powerful that it shouldn't be on the wizard list to prevent game breaking, I think they would also prevent you from easily achieving it through multiclassing OR you would see every optimized wizard taking his last 3 levels in sorcerer.

Neither of these are the case. They just wanted the wizard and sorcerer to feel different, so they gave them different lists. Why that came down to the sorcerer list getting gimped is beyond me. As has been pointed out it is Wizards of the Coast.

[SharkForce]

I think that's more of "uber-overpowered" than "very least". The number of Sorcery Points is fine as it is - but Sorcerers need more options of what they can do with those Sorcery Points. Namely, being able to select more Metamagic options. Not 2 but 3 at level 3, 4 at level 7, 5 at level 13, 6 at level 17, something like that wouldn't hurt. And please, more spells known.
Twinned Spell. Being able to cast Haste, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph on two targets at the same time is already strong...

Especially goes with Polymorph, since it doesn't even require concentration.

foresight doesn't use concentration. but it's also one of the least game-breaking things you can do with a level 9 spell slot. true polymorph *does* require concentration until it becomes permanent, but in that case as i noted earlier you can just use it days in advance on as many targets as you have days anyways.


Being able to cast them with Subtle spell without threat of counterspell.

both of those spells are more likely to be cast well before anyone is around to try and counterspell them, unless you have access to twin for true polymorph, in which case you have less incentive to make it permanent. or, in other words, access to metamagic makes it *more* likely for someone to try and counterspell that casting, because it's less likely to have been done 5 days ago while camping.

[Spiritchaser]

Just a note on foresight: If circumstances allow, you can do better than just twinning it.
If you extend spell, foresight gives you 16 hours. Take your long rest and have 8 left..., then twin it... Or save your slot for wish.

I don't think this is broken I'm comparison to other spells, but 3 PCs with foresight is powerful.

[RulesJD]

Please, Foresight is one of the worst uses of a Wizard's level 9 spell slot. Sure Extending it to 16 hours before a long rest would be nice, but it is really don't do much.

I've played fairly extensively as a level 17+ Wizard. For pretty much every class, they already have advantage on the important checks they want to be making anyways via magic items, other spells/abilities, etc. For a Wizard, the entire goal is to never make those saves/attacks/checks in the first place. Counterspell + Contingency + Ottos Resilient Sphere (when used properly) is massively more powerful than Foresight and keeps your level 9 slot free.

Want to know what's a way, way better use of a level 9 spell slot? Shapechange. Being able to Twin that would be powerful, if you didn't already have a Simulacrum capable of doing exactly that anyways.

Yes, being able to drop in 2 Dragon Turtles with full spell casting abilities (or Goristo demons, etc) makes Foresight look like a joke.

[SharkForce]

shapechange can't be twinned anyways, even if you had metamagic. it's a self spell only.

but yeah, foresight with extend isn't awful... except it's only good on the first day of an adventure, and meanwhile you had to take extend instead of twin, quicken, subtle, heighten, or careful. extend is at best a distant 6th place for a sorcerer, and you only get 4.

(on the other hand, extend is not bad at all for a cleric who multiclasses sorcerer for metamagic).

[Spiritchaser]

shapechange can't be twinned anyways, even if you had metamagic. it's a self spell only.

but yeah, foresight with extend isn't awful... except it's only good on the first day of an adventure, and meanwhile you had to take extend instead of twin, quicken, subtle, heighten, or careful. extend is at best a distant 6th place for a sorcerer, and you only get 4.

(on the other hand, extend is not bad at all for a cleric who multiclasses sorcerer for metamagic).


I would say extend is best for Paladin/sorc on the strength of aura of vitality alone, which is pretty crazy when extended, though I guess a level of life cleric in there as well would be right over the top

[JumboWheat01]

I totally didn't realize Melf's Acid Arrow wasn't a sorcerer spell. WTF!

If I'm remembering correctly, Sorcerers don't have any Person Name's spells on their list at all. Apparently they haven't figured out or their blood denies them the right to use spells that someone made up several <insert time frame>s ago.

[Blue Lantern]

My list

Absorb element
Bigby's Hand
Shapechange




If I'm remembering correctly, Sorcerers don't have any Person Name's spells on their list at all. Apparently they haven't figured out or their blood denies them the right to use spells that someone made up several <insert time frame>s ago.

Boy that was a stupid answer from the designers. Luckily they realised it before Elemental Evil

[DizzyWood]

Follow up question are there any spells you would never allow a sorcerer to have?

[Spiritchaser]

Follow up question are there any spells you would never allow a sorcerer to have?

I'd be exceptionally hesitant to give them aura of vitality... it's highly sensitive to metamagic... But even then... I don't think I'd say "never"

[odigity]

A wizard 17/sorc 3 could very easily decide to make metamagic his capstone.

That could be both fun and worthwhile, but you'll end up capped at 3 SP, which means no twinning spells of 4th lvl or higher.

Unless I'm missing something, the highest level Wizard spell a Sorcerer could twin via multiclassing would be 7th, via Wizard 13 / Sorcerer 7.

[Fable Wright]

Just a note on foresight: If circumstances allow, you can do better than just twinning it.
If you extend spell, foresight gives you 16 hours. Take your long rest and have 8 left..., then twin it... Or save your slot for wish.

I don't think this is broken I'm comparison to other spells, but 3 PCs with foresight is powerful.

Four. Four PCs. Two from the night before, and two from the Twinned Foresight on the second day.

[Byke]

Follow up question are there any spells you would never allow a sorcerer to have?

Aside from allowing metamagic to work on 9th level spells....nope.

and to answer the OP

1) Absorb elements.
2) Vampiric touch (but if you really wanted it Death domain from FS)
3) Forcage

Honorable mention goes to Find Familiar....Seriously WTF?

[SharkForce]

Four. Four PCs. Two from the night before, and two from the Twinned Foresight on the second day.

three. you can't extend *and* twin a spell, you can only do one or the other (1 metamagic per spell unless otherwise specified, as it is with empower spell).

and it still probably wouldn't be better than extending foresight the night before and then using the level 9 spell slot the next day for something better and cheaper than twin foresight instead.

[Zalabim]

Just a note on foresight: If circumstances allow, you can do better than just twinning it.
If you extend spell, foresight gives you 16 hours. Take your long rest and have 8 left..., then twin it... Or save your slot for wish.

I don't think this is broken I'm comparison to other spells, but 3 PCs with foresight is powerful.


Four. Four PCs. Two from the night before, and two from the Twinned Foresight on the second day.


three. you can't extend *and* twin a spell, you can only do one or the other (1 metamagic per spell unless otherwise specified, as it is with empower spell).

and it still probably wouldn't be better than extending foresight the night before and then using the level 9 spell slot the next day for something better and cheaper than twin foresight instead.

1 or 2. Foresight immediately ends if you cast it again before the duration ends. So you either have one carried over from the previous day with Extend or two cast for this day with Twin. You can't have both an extended foresight and a twinned foresight in effect.

[famousringo]

I'd be exceptionally hesitant to give them aura of vitality... it's highly sensitive to metamagic... But even then... I don't think I'd say "never"

Eh, I don't really see a problem for a couple reasons:

1. Extend really doesn't have much to recommend it, and metamagic picks are a scarce resource. The only other way to exploit it I know of is Delayed Blast Fireball, and that's a really situational setup. I wish there were some exceptionally powerful buff/debuffs with a duration of 1 or two rounds to make the pick worthwhile, but there aren't, and anybody taking it is probably either wasting space on their character sheet or wasting sorcery points extending durations beyond their relevance. Let them get something nice for their investment (or maybe I should say sacrifice).

2. ~140 healing for a third level slot and a sorcery point is very efficient, yes. But so is a life cleric with Goodberry healing 40 HP for a 1st level slot. And even if Aura of Vitality were on the sorcerer list, Disciple of Life + Goodberry would still be a more accessible combo. You can do it at level 1 if you really want it, and it won't cost you concentration.

[odigity]

Extend really doesn't have much to recommend it, and metamagic picks are a scarce resource. The only other way to exploit it I know of is Delayed Blast Fireball, and that's a really situational setup. I wish there were some exceptionally powerful buff/debuffs with a duration of 1 or two rounds to make the pick worthwhile, but there aren't, and anybody taking it is probably either wasting space on their character sheet or wasting sorcery points extending durations beyond their relevance. Let them get something nice for their investment (or maybe I should say sacrifice).

That's a good point. Makes me think some of the metamagics should be downgraded to only cost 1/2 a metamagic slot, so you could pick two niche ones instead one super-strong one (like Quicken or Twin).

I feel the same way about Feats. Lots of feats should only cost 1/2 a feat slot, and the ones that combine a minor ability and a +1 ASI should have the +1 dropped and made into a 1/2 feat.

[ImperiousLeader]

The only omission that really bothers me is Shapechange, though the lack of Grease is also irksome, it was my 3.5 Sorcerer's best spell.

To be honest, what I really want are more Metamagic and some unique Sorcerer spells.

[Sigreid]

The only omission that really bothers me is Shapechange, though the lack of Grease is also irksome, it was my 3.5 Sorcerer's best spell.

To be honest, what I really want are more Metamagic and some unique Sorcerer spells.

It really annoys me that storm sorcerers don't get control weather. I mean, come on!

[Citan]

I'm not sure if this would make up all the ground between wizards and sorcerers but just a few choice picks could synergize particularly well with metamagic and make one check of a difference

I'll start:
1. Foresight. Extend it, rest and twin it. Yup, that's power
2. Vampiric touch: cast it, then attack, drain and cast something else
3. Death ward, although not as cool as 1 and 2.
AFB so maybe I'm totally wrong, but I think these two spells are not on Sorcerer spellist, although I really don't see why (especially Draconic)
Elemental "reaction" (sorry don't remember the true name of spell, that's the level 1 reaction spell giving resistance + extra damage)
Elemental Bane
For the third... Honestly no idea. :)

[sky red hunter]

I've played a pure sorcerer to level 7 and been completely frustrated by a lack of a short rest mechanic to restore either spell slots or sorcery points. Every other class feature just works, it doesn't require you to sacrifice your main mechanic to make your speciality work but sorcerers have to use their already precious and non-regenerating slots ( you're magic incarnate but can't regenerate slots? go figure) to power their metamagic options.

Yes you get some sp's to start with but after one big fight they're all gone if you're not 'holding' back and using cantrips, sorcerers are meant to be explosive inmate magic users but have to play carefully, saving the few sorcery points and slots for when really needed between long rests.

Wizards can just go ape and get a bunch back on a short rest, not to mention their class features are still good and not eating into their spells slots. EVERY meta magic should be available at level 3 if they don't want to give more spell options and a spell slot restoration mechanic, even then it will only slightly improve the class.

The only fix at the moment is to take levels in warlock and use warlock spells for your sorcerer spells and sorcery point regeneration and then get them back on a short rest. Even that doesn't keep up to a wizards magical restoration on short rests. The spell list is restricted with nothing unique to sorcerers? fair enough, then give us our sorcery points back on a short rest! its not cost effective turning them into slots so its not broken?

Saying they can twin spells like haste makes them broken ignores the fact that it costs not just sorcery points but a spell slottoo, two resources!! Burning the candle at both ends! its still concentration so risky and also means you can't cast another concentration spell while its in use!!

I seriously think anyone saying they are overpowered has never really played them enough to see just how nerfed they are.

I also have a level seven battle master in another campaign and he has two attacks, rerolls 1-2's, has action surge and second wind and also superiority dice to power manoeuvres that are quiet powerful.....

He gets it all back on a short rest?!

The action surge the second wind the superiority dice the whole lot!!!

They talk about a sorcerer twinning fireball being overpowered a battle master can run in and attack and use trip attack, if successful he has advantage on all subsequent attacks, so attacks and does menacing attack, action surges and attacks again using disarming attack and a final attack using another menacing attack so with a maul that 4x(2d6 +str+1d8) rerolling 1-2's possibly tripping disarming and frightening an opponent and still having superiority dice left! in one turn!!! and if its dead just short rest to do it in the next fight!! (punctuation in previous sentence is as it is to emphasise that it is all one attack grammar nazi's)

Absolute madness that people can't see how the sorcerer is underpowered in terms of keeping up with other classes. No regen? Burning their power at both ends to just use their class feature! I mean bloody hell a bard gets more choice than a sorcerer and can pick from other spell lists and all he's doing is playing an instrument!! he can give inspiration and it doesn't need to burn his spell slots?

Wizards don't like sorcerers full stop.

Adding this after editing: On a personal note I didn't realise people trolled these forums picking on grammatical errors, capitalisations, improper spacing and under use of paragraphs. Nice way to make people feel welcome here.

[Citan]

punctuation-diet rant
You have a very impressive lung capacity. ;)

[odigity]

punctuation-diet rant

(Nicely summarized, Citan.)

I usually don't bring up punctuation and capitalization, but really, the longer your post is, the more important it is to actually punctuate and capitalize well. (And well-paced paragraph breaks.) Otherwise it gets harder and harder to follow, and at some point you just decide it's not worth reading.

[sky red hunter]

You have a very impressive lung capacity. ;)

Self-Elevating witty sarcasm at someone else's expense from the safety of your computer

Man you're so cool!

ps. I put the sarcasm in Italics in case you couldn't figure it out.

[RickAllison]

Self-Elevating witty sarcasm at someone else's expense from the safety of your computer

Man you're so cool!

ps. I put the sarcasm in Italics in case you couldn't figure it out.

The go-to methods to indicate sarcasm are or using blue-text!

[odigity]

The go-to methods to indicate sarcasm are or using blue-text!

Is this super-sarcastic, or flipped back to normal?

[JumboWheat01]

Is this super-sarcastic, or flipped back to normal?

It's left sarcasm behind and has moved onto indignant.

[Gastronomie]

-snip-Well, wou know what, what you're saying is generally all correct. The entire reason why this thread was created because people think Sorcerers are generally considered somewhat lackluster.

I don't think so as much as the others do, though (taking care of resources is the whole point of the game).


Adding this after editing: On a personal note I didn't realise people trolled these forums picking on grammatical errors, capitalisations, improper spacing and under use of paragraphs. Nice way to make people feel welcome here.Not really trolling though. Trying to make your arguments easy to understand is part of internet manners, especially if you're writing something long and you want it to be understood.

[odigity]

On a personal note I didn't realise people trolled these forums picking on grammatical errors, capitalisations, improper spacing and under use of paragraphs. Nice way to make people feel welcome here.


Not really trolling though. Trying to make your arguments easy to understand is part of internet manners, especially if you're writing something long and you want it to be understood.

Exactly.

SRH, we're not your college TA. We're not obligated to read your papers to grade them. We'd like to - we're obviously here because we want to read what others have to say - but it's voluntary, and should be enjoyable, since this is a hobby.

If your only goal was to get your thoughts down into a post with minimal time and effort so that future scholars could pore over and decipher it, then congratulations, you accomplished that goal.

But if your goal is to share your thoughts with others, and get their responses, then you should put a little more effort into making it more enticing, more readable, perhaps even a joy to read.

I'm not your slave. If you want my mindtime, seduce me - and respect me.

[Citan]

Self-Elevating witty sarcasm at someone else's expense from the safety of your computer

Man you're so cool!

ps. I put the sarcasm in Italics in case you couldn't figure it out.
Well, I'm sorry for you if you felt offended, but I just stated the truth. Your initial post was hurting eyes and reading more like an emotional flow of angry thoughts than a factual, constructed argument. And I still made the effort of reading it fully before posting, mind you.

Formatting a post in an easily readable way is just...
a) Respecting others.
b) Giving yourself a much higher chance that people will actually read your post, understand it and react on it.

On that note, good job on cleaning up your post. :)
For the actual argument, I'd say you are right on the whole but making it worse than it is really. Sorcerer are still very fun to play, as long as you consider the "conversion" only in spell to metamagic point way and not the reverse. ;)
And although the small number of spells known is saddening, it's not so bad in practice (just read how often people with Cleric say "well I just always cast Bless/Spiritual Weapon / Spirit Guardians" when they have so many available spells, or Paladin who will usually stick with Bless/Hunter's Mark, etc...

So even classes with more options tend to repeat the same tactic in most encounters...

(By the way: it's not very credible playing the "newcomer ragging" card when you registered nearly one year ago. And it it had been a face-to-face conversation, I would have teased you all the same ;))

[Gastronomie]

Well, summarizing my thoughts, I think Sorcerers are amazing at what they do. Even better than Wizards. But they have to focus on a particular profession as you build them - otherwise they might turn out meh.

For instance, a Sorcerer with Twinned Spell is even better a Buffer than Bards. A Sorcerer with Careful Spell or Heightened Spell can debuff better than Wizards. But can the same Sorcerer be better than Bards/Wizards at both of these things at once? No. But that does not make them weak at all.

[Citan]

Well, summarizing my thoughts, I think Sorcerers are amazing at what they do. Even better than Wizards. But they have to focus on a particular profession as you build them - otherwise they might turn out meh.

For instance, a Sorcerer with Twinned Spell is even better a Buffer than Bards. A Sorcerer with Careful Spell or Heightened Spell can debuff better than Wizards. But can the same Sorcerer be better than Bards/Wizards at both of these things at once? No. But that does not make them weak at all.
I think your formulation pinned it down pretty well. :smallsmile:

[SharkForce]

Well, summarizing my thoughts, I think Sorcerers are amazing at what they do. Even better than Wizards. But they have to focus on a particular profession as you build them - otherwise they might turn out meh.

For instance, a Sorcerer with Twinned Spell is even better a Buffer than Bards. A Sorcerer with Careful Spell or Heightened Spell can debuff better than Wizards. But can the same Sorcerer be better than Bards/Wizards at both of these things at once? No. But that does not make them weak at all.

here's the thing though... some of those roles aren't particularly good most of the time. i mean, being the best buffer at level 7 and 8 (ie when twin polymorph gives you 2 giant apes or 2 t-rexes) is pretty good, but outside of those levels, it isn't doing you much good.

and some of the other roles you actually can't be that good at either... take debuffer for example. now, certainly, careful web is a wonderful thing. as is careful stinking cloud, careful hypnotic pattern, etc. but as a sorcerer you will never ever get wall of force, which is an absolutely mind-blowingly powerful debuffing tool. and, you can't afford to carry as many specialized debuffs as the wizard. you can't cover every save very easily either, especially if you want to also be prepared for different immunities and different needs, and if you try then you're probably *only* a debuffer apart from being able to plink away with cantrips. and heighten, while it is a nice tool to have, only works on a single save for a single target. better than not having anything at all, but certainly not anything like an "i win" button that makes them automatically better than a wizard. certainly, a sorcerer debuff caster can do things *different* from what a wizard debuffer can do, but i wouldn't say they're inherently better. meanwhile, the wizard can switch from debuffer to whatever other role is needed tomorrow (except healer. unless they're a theurge, but that's broken UA material so i won't count it).

on any given day, a generalist wizard can probably match, or come extremely close to matching, or even exceed in some cases, a sorcerer in their specialty, while also being able to cover other roles as needed on the next day. this is a pretty big problem when sorcerers are basically trying to fill the exact same role as wizards.

the other big slap in the face, imo at least, is that sorcerer tends to need to multiclass to really be best at anything. paladin/sorcer and warlock/sorcerer are probably the two most common sorcerer builds i've seen on these forums. their class features tend to be so poor that the best use of sorcerer is to make another class better at being that class.

[Gastronomie]

@SharkForce: I think some of what you say is correct, while some is not.


here's the thing though... some of those roles aren't particularly good most of the time. i mean, being the best buffer at level 7 and 8 (ie when twin polymorph gives you 2 giant apes or 2 t-rexes) is pretty good, but outside of those levels, it isn't doing you much good.I don't know if this is theory-crafting or personal experience, but at least I disagree based on my personal experience. Twinning Haste, Polymorph and Greater Invisibility is good, not only at levels 7 and 8 but actually for your entire career. I've played in a epic-level short campaign with a Paladin/Sorcerer, and I found myself using those spells quite frequently. The effects of those three spells are powerful enough, even at epic levels.
Also, there are almost no buff spells past 5th-level spells. It's not like Wizards get better buff spells at higher levels, at least until level 17 where True Polymorph and Foresight kick in.


and some of the other roles you actually can't be that good at either... take debuffer for example. now, certainly, careful web is a wonderful thing. as is careful stinking cloud, careful hypnotic pattern, etc. but as a sorcerer you will never ever get wall of force, which is an absolutely mind-blowingly powerful debuffing tool. and, you can't afford to carry as many specialized debuffs as the wizard. you can't cover every save very easily either, especially if you want to also be prepared for different immunities and different needs, and if you try then you're probably *only* a debuffer apart from being able to plink away with cantrips.Here I both agree and disagree. Indeed, never geting Wall of Force is quite painful (as well as bad design on WotC's part - it wouldn't have hurt to give it to Sorcerers in the first place), but more so, in actual gameplay you'll realize that most AoE debuff spells will have to include your friends in their areas, since the tanks of your party will jump in melee range of your enemies from the first round. When that happens, if you don't have Careful Spell, you need to think up other ways to fight. If you have Careful Spell, you can simply drop a Web on the engaging friends and foes alike, and watch as the tanks smash up the restrained enemies. This works better in actual games than it seems on paper. If you haven't tried it before I suggest you try it.


and heighten, while it is a nice tool to have, only works on a single save for a single target. better than not having anything at all, but certainly not anything like an "i win" button that makes them automatically better than a wizard.It doesn't make them better than a Wizard. It does, however, differenate them and make them a viable option.


certainly, a sorcerer debuff caster can do things *different* from what a wizard debuffer can do, but i wouldn't say they're inherently better. meanwhile, the wizard can switch from debuffer to whatever other role is needed tomorrow (except healer. unless they're a theurge, but that's broken UA material so i won't count it). I actually don't see Wizards changing around their readied spells much (though whether this is because of the playstyle of my playmates, or just something coming from how it's difficult to predict the upcoming encounters of the day, I have no idea). I do agree that Wizards are great debuffers as well, but for me I think Sorcerers can do it better in certain areas. And those "certain areas" are important.

A Sorcerer need not be better at debuffing than a Wizard in every single method and situation. However, there are quite a lot of situations in which Sorcerers do it better with Heightened and Careful spell. And those situations are what's important. I've bumped into various moments where I really appreciated going Sorcerer rather than Wizard.


on any given day, a generalist wizard can probably match, or come extremely close to matching, or even exceed in some cases, a sorcerer in their specialty, while also being able to cover other roles as needed on the next day. this is a pretty big problem when sorcerers are basically trying to fill the exact same role as wizards.For reasons stated above, I disagree. There's no arguing that Wizards are more versatile and adaptable to all sorts of situations, but it's almost impossible for them to exceed Sorcerers in their "speciality".

There is an exception to this though - field control. For buffing and debuffing, Sorcerers have lots of options, but lack of Wall of Force, Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Elemental and Evard's Black Tentacles make Wizards better field controllers.


the other big slap in the face, imo at least, is that sorcerer tends to need to multiclass to really be best at anything. paladin/sorcer and warlock/sorcerer are probably the two most common sorcerer builds i've seen on these forums. their class features tend to be so poor that the best use of sorcerer is to make another class better at being that class.I think Sorclocks are more like "Sorcerers that dipped Warlock to get better DPR", but I do agree that Paladin/Sorcs are mostly better than Sorcerers. In fact I love Paladin/Sorcs so much I created a guide about them.

But the reason that Paladin/Sorcs are better than Sorcerers is, rather ironically, because Sorcerers are so good at what they do.

Now, to explain my point, let me talk a bit about how Paladin/Sorcs work in the first place.

Paladin/Sorcs combine the tankiness and nova of Paladins with the buff/debuffs of the Sorcerer (and the amazing action economy granted by Quickened Spell) to create what's one of the best, and arguably the most powerful gish build in 5e. Here, the benefits of being a Sorcerer are exploited to their maximum. Even if Wizards used CHA for spellcasting, Paladin/Sorcs would trump Paladin/Wizards. But why?

A Paladin/Sorc who wants to buff can buff both himself and a friend at a same time.
A Paladin/Sorc who wants to debuff can lock many enemies in melee range (perhaps using Champion Challenge etc. as well), and proceed to drop Careful Web/Careful Hypnotic/Careful Whatever on the area, crippling the entire enemy frontline.
Both of these are things that a Wizard cannot do.

Note that both buffing and debuffing, at their core, require you to have friends. You need a friend to buff. You need a friend to trample the guys you debuffed. And what makes Paladin/Sorcs really good is that you get to be the own friend of yourself, if that makes any sense. Where pure Sorcerers are futile on their own and need to buff two party tanks to be good, Paladin/Sorcs can include himself in the two tanks you buff. Where pure Sorcerers will drop Careful Spell on an area where your friend tanks and your enemies are locked in melee, Paladin/Sorcs can drop into the frontline themselves and then drop Careful Spell around you.

Basically, the Paladin/Sorcerer does is "two characters in one". It acts as both the "supporter" (Sorcerer) and the "guy who gets supported" (Paladin). And he can even design the entire build to revolve around synergizing with the spells that buff himself, making himself a better buff target than other party members. That's why he's so awesome, even on its own.

...And what does that mean? Jeez, Gastronomie, this isn't a thread about Paladin/Sorcs, it's a thread about Sorcerers! Quit going off topic for once!

Except no, I'm not going off topic. My point here is that:

the best use of sorcerer is to make another class better at being that class.Here, you are right. You are indeed very right. You are right because Sorcerers are meant to be awesome buffers and debuffers, and they friggin’ make other classes better at being that class by using those Metamagic options. That’s what they do. Does that make them weak?

No. Certainly not. By that logic Wizards and Bards will be terrible classes as well, because all they can do is make other characters better. They’re friggin’ supporters. They’re the God Casters. As Treatmonk once said in his guide, they let the mortals have their victory.


their class features tend to be so poorThe reason Sorcerers are futile on their own is not because their class features are poor. It’s because their awesome class features all revolve around helping their friends, which is exactly what Casters are meant to do. Paladin/Sorcs are unique in how they buff themselves instead of their friends, but deep down it’s the same thing, just two jobs in one. And that’s sheer proof that the Sorcerer makes a really amazing support character.

[Kane0]

My table's houserules:

- You get 1 spent sorcery point back for every 2 Hit dice you spend to heal on a short rest. Get that blood flowing!
- You get a bonus spell appropriate to your bloodline at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. Much like a cleric, paladin and to a lesser extent warlock your heritage nets you a couple bonus spells (maybe not exactly what you wanted but still nice) which brings you up to par.

Been working grand so far.

[SharkForce]

i think you've completely misunderstood a few things.

first off, i've been playing D&D for three (and a half?) editions now. in only one of those editions did careful spell even exists, and yet, i've played spellcasters, primarily focusing on crowd control with a sideline in doing every other useful thing when necessary (including at times nuking the crud out of things with fireballs etc).

i would be telling a lie if i said i would never have been able to benefit from something like careful spell in all that time. i've played in editions where a fireball in the wrong place will hit the enemies 100 feet away *and* your entire party, and a failed save against a fireball means every single piece of equipment you own has to make an item saving throw or be destroyed (i don't mean they'll take damage, like in 3.x either... i mean, that magic sword either passes the saving throw against magical fire or it is now a very non-magical melted chunk of scrap metal) and where spontaneous casting did not exist at all, and you prepared every single spell at the start of the day and hoped you had the right ones.

but, in spite of not having careful spell, i've gotten tremendous value out of my aoe crowd control. it certainly would have been nice - there have been a few times where it was a matter of fireball the party and risk horrible things happening vs not fireballing the party resulting in a TPK (and making your save is the difference between finding out half your equipment is gone and you have no spare vs all equipment coming out unscathed).

so yeah, i get that careful spell is nice. but i also understand, from decades of play, that careful placement with no metamagic at all can get you extremely powerful effects too. i would've been able to use certain spells at certain times to hit a few more creatures if i had something like careful spell. but it isn't fundamental to the ability to use those spells, it just means that the right time to use them is a bit different.

now then, as to buffing, you seem to have misunderstood me as claiming that wizards are better buffers. that is not my claim at all. my claim is that apart from a few specific levels (or a few specific scenarios), buffing is not very good in 5e. getting a couple of giant apes instead of 2 level 7 fighters is a huge deal. getting a couple of giant apes instead of 2 level 11 fighters is a bit like trading 2 fighters for one and a half. getting a couple of giant apes instead of 2 level 11 fighter/level 9 rogues is like trading 2 fighters for a little under one fighter. unless your sole purpose is to fill up a lot of space with punching bags that represent substantially less of a threat than the fighters they used to be. and most of the rest of the buff spells are simply not that good. polymorph is amazing when you have high enough CR beasts to turn into (and if there were a good selection of beasts at every CR from 7 through to 20, twin polymorph would probably be enough to last the sorcerer into the end game on the strength of that alone). but even the stronger spells like haste are generally not going to be as good as a proper debuff (with or without careful or heighten).

sorcerers are better at buffing, but buffing is a terrible use of a full spellcaster in 5e. there may not be more impressive things you could do with the spell slot necessarily, but there *are* better things you could do with your concentration as a full spellcaster (most of the time; again, i fully acknowledge that polymorph, twinned or not, is an amazing spell for as long as there are beasts of an appropriate CR to transform into).

next, we have my point that sorcerers aren't really better debuffers, just different. this is a problem. why is it a problem? because a wizard that is just as good at the sorcerer's specialty (just in a different way), but with the ability to be dramatically better than a sorcerer in a number of other areas, points to a glaring imbalance. if the sorcerer is giving up the chance of being a good generalist in order to be a specialist, they shouldn't be *equal* to the generalist in their area of specialty. they should be much better. different is nice, but it shouldn't require that you be different and weaker.

paladin/sorcerers aren't great because they're good at being spellcasters. they're great because quicken is pretty meh for someone who's main action is supposed to be casting spells, but amazing for someone who already has a non-spellcasting high-value option for a regular action, especially if that main action doesn't involve concentrating on a spell. paladin/sorcerers are not better at being a sorcerer, they're better at being a paladin, because the sorcerer ability (and no, i don't mean abilities, i mean ability, because the only one worth even half as much as taking more paladin levels is metamagic) actually synergizes with paladins better than it does with being a sorcerer, and buffing gains a lot more value when your debuffs and crowd control is relying on spells a few levels lower than a single class spellcaster would have, your casting attribute is probably low (because you need to put your points elsewhere), and your primary means of contributing to a battle is not intended to be spellcasting anyways. paladin/sorcerers are excellent paladins. they are mediocre at best when it comes to being a sorcerer.

a sorcerer/warlock is indeed a sorcerer focused on damage. and in order to do it as best they can, they can't be a single-class sorcerer; their best role is not as a supporting character that lifts other party members, it is as part of a multiclass where their other class benefits from them being a sorcerer. because metamagic is much better when it is given to almost anything other than a sorcerer. probably because every other class has a bunch of stuff going for them, while sorcerers only have one thing (metamagic)... and therefore, a sorcerer dip on any other class means you get most of what makes sorcerers even remotely interesting on top of a class that actually has other things going for it already.

when i said the best use of sorcerer is to make another class better at being that class, i didn't mean the sorcerer would be a supporting separate character. i meant that a fighter/sorcerer can get battlemaster maneuvers and spellcasting, eventually leading to a fighter 11 (battlemaster)/sorcerer 9 (or some other cutoff point, and who cares about the sorcerer archetype because it probably doesn't give them much of anything worth mentioning) that is better at being a fighter/magic user than the actual eldritch knight archetype.

sorcerer makes for a great multiclass build. it isn't nearly as good at being a sorcerer, because metamagic is the only great thing a sorcerer does, and other classes get to add that onto everything they do when they take a few sorcerer levels.

oh, and no, spellcasters don't need friends to buff. nor do they need friends to finish off what they debuff or control. certainly, they (like any other class in the game) can accomplish more when they work together with others. but if you want to, you can build a caster to deal enough damage to finish off their own debuffed enemies, or for that matter you could build a fighter or barbarian to have a limited amount of debuffing (compared to what a full caster can do) to supplement their higher at-will damage.

[Citan]

here's the thing though... some of those roles aren't particularly good most of the time. i mean, being the best buffer at level 7 and 8 (ie when twin polymorph gives you 2 giant apes or 2 t-rexes) is pretty good, but outside of those levels, it isn't doing you much good.

and some of the other roles you actually can't be that good at either... take debuffer for example. now, certainly, careful web is a wonderful thing. as is careful stinking cloud, careful hypnotic pattern, etc. but as a sorcerer you will never ever get wall of force, which is an absolutely mind-blowingly powerful debuffing tool. and, you can't afford to carry as many specialized debuffs as the wizard. you can't cover every save very easily either, especially if you want to also be prepared for different immunities and different needs, and if you try then you're probably *only* a debuffer apart from being able to plink away with cantrips. and heighten, while it is a nice tool to have, only works on a single save for a single target. better than not having anything at all, but certainly not anything like an "i win" button that makes them automatically better than a wizard.
You really undersell Heightened:
Blindness, Reduce, Polymorph, Levitate, Banishment, Dominate X, Eyebite, Disintegrate can be game changers because they allow you to easily disable powerful opponents for a good part of your career. And they allow you to cover nearly all ability scores. And unless I made a mistake, all of these grant only one save when the spell is cast, no other. So perfect with Heightened.

Hold X, Slow, and more generally all AOE control or single target with save/turn spells are still valuable even if most creatures will be able to end the effect in 2 turns most.

So, a Sorcerer specializing in debuffing with Extend, Heightened and Careful can be as versatile as Wizard (and better in reliability) at least until Wizards get 7th level spells.

[SillyPopeNachos]

True Polymorph (because every other arcane caster gets it), Geas, Otto's Irresistible Dance

[SharkForce]

You really undersell Heightened:
Blindness, Reduce, Polymorph, Levitate, Banishment, Dominate X, Eyebite, Disintegrate can be game changers because they allow you to easily disable powerful opponents for a good part of your career. And they allow you to cover nearly all ability scores. And unless I made a mistake, all of these grant only one save when the spell is cast, no other. So perfect with Heightened.

Hold X, Slow, and more generally all AOE control or single target with save/turn spells are still valuable even if most creatures will be able to end the effect in 2 turns most.

So, a Sorcerer specializing in debuffing with Extend, Heightened and Careful can be as versatile as Wizard (and better in reliability) at least until Wizards get 7th level spells.

blindness allows additional saves, reduce is not a powerful disable, levitate only works on melee enemies (you know, the ones that probably have a good con save in the first place so heighten is basically getting you to about where you would be if you hit a weak save instead). dominate gives a save every single time the target takes any damage at all, eyebite effects only last for one round (and only one use of it will get the benefit of heighten anyways), and disintegrate is not a crowd control effect. so we've got polymorph (which can be really good provided the enemy doesn't know how it works, or not that great but still decent if they don't) and banishment, covering only two saves in terms of reliability, and only one of those effects even has the option of hitting multiple targets.

meanwhile, if we're talking about stuff that's really effective against one target, bigby's hand (another one of those spells that sorcerers don't get) can just stop just about every monster in the manual from being able to come any closer to you. there is no save, there is a simple attribute check; you either have a ridiculous strength attribute or it just works. also, the spell can do several different kinds of attacks if you need, so not only is it a nearly-guaranteed control against a single creature, it can do other stuff too.

and most of those AoE control spells do indeed remain useful... but the thing is, they're also useful without heighten (which will only work on a single target per spell). and again, careful targeting can give you excellent results from them without need of careful spell.

and now that you've blown 10 spells known at minimum that you've listed (presuming you only take one of the hold and dominate options), and still haven't covered the other spells you're definitely going to want on a crowd control specialist (web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern as a bare minimum, plus probably mass suggestion) we're looking at a sorcerer who is at best a tiny bit superior in crowd control, and can do basically nothing else. wait, sorry, those 10 spells included disintegrate... so you can do crowd control, and also you can disintegrate (but not very often because it's a level 6 spell). and you have absolutely nothing for defense (no shield, mage armour, mirror image, blur, etc), nothing for damage except possible cantrips, nothing for buffing, and it doesn't even come into shape properly until you're nearly level 20 because you don't *get* 13+ spells known as a sorcerer until then.

meanwhile, a wizard had most of those spells sooner because they're adding more to their spell book for free (never mind anything they get from other spellcasters), can probably have every single prepared by the time they're level 11 (they need level 11 because disintegrate is a level 6 spell, otherwise it would be a bit sooner assuming they have a decent int), and has more options in the spellbook that they can switch in if they need it. also, instead of having class features that probably require you to burn more spell slots, they have class features that allow them to replenish spell slots and do useful things without using spell slots, and they're doing all that at a substantially lower level, and without giving up access to useful things like wall of force, planar binding, etc.

metamagic is nice. it's a wonderful thing. but it is overpriced on the sorcerer.

[Scuronotte]

Bigby's Hand
Wall of Force
Heal

I also agree with everyones comments
1. Increase known spells to 22
2. Regain SP at 10th level based on charisma modifier
3. More Metamagic
4. 20th level is gain SP based on 2x Charisma modifier

[Asmotherion]

1) True Polymorph... Because if one of your parents or ancestors was a dragon, you should at least have the option to become one.
2) Prismatic Wall... Elemental damage is sorcerer teritory IMO. Why he would not be able to cast it is beyond me.
3) Find Familiar... The 3.5 Sorcerer had a familiar, and it worked just fine. I know he can easily get one with a feat, I'm just not sure why he can't have one by default. This makes more sence to me.
3) Animate Dead... Because why not? He already can have zombies with Finger of Death, and it's not really game-breaking as an option.

[DragonSorcererX]

1 - Conjure Elementals
2 - Wish
3 - True Polymorph/Shapechange

[Asmotherion]

1 - Conjure Elementals
2 - Wish
3 - True Polymorph/Shapechange

Wish is in the Sorcerer's Spell List though.

[DragonSorcererX]

Wish is in the Sorcerer's Spell List though.

Oh yes, so I take Wish away and put Shapechange, to get both True Polymorph and Shapechange!

[RickAllison]

I'm really divided on Shapechange or True Polymorph for a sorcerer. Both let Draconics become a dragon, but they have their own unique qualities. True Polymorph allows permanent becoming a dragon, but I feel everything else makes much more sense for Shapechange. It lets a sorcerer keep their magic, it doesn't have any worrying consequences with Twinned metamagic, and it feels thematically much closer. Polymorph is about becoming a different creature, while Shapechange is about being yourself in a different shape.

[Citan]

blindness allows additional saves, reduce is not a powerful disable, levitate only works on melee enemies (you know, the ones that probably have a good con save in the first place so heighten is basically getting you to about where you would be if you hit a weak save instead). dominate gives a save every single time the target takes any damage at all, eyebite effects only last for one round (and only one use of it will get the benefit of heighten anyways), and disintegrate is not a crowd control effect. so we've got polymorph (which can be really good provided the enemy doesn't know how it works, or not that great but still decent if they don't) and banishment, covering only two saves in terms of reliability, and only one of those effects even has the option of hitting multiple targets.

If you paid attention to my posts, you would have noticed I already know about the limitations of those spells (except the Blindness one that I missed indeed). The others, as long as you use them correctly, don't grant additional saves. If these were such bad spells nobody would use them. But people use them, regularly. So what?

Maybe contrarily to you, those people just know how to use them, in coordination with their party, to make the most of them, even if they expect it not to last beyond one turn?

Also note that I NEVER talked about crowd control. Just about disabling powerful opponents, single-target opponents. Hence my list. Just quoted the Slow and other as example of spells that can be taken to complement to cover the crowd control part. :)

[djreynolds]

I love protection from evil/good, more than blur if just for the wisdom save section... and since our DM continually forces us to face outsiders and undead.

I love disintegrate, great spell.

[SharkForce]

If you paid attention to my posts, you would have noticed I already know about the limitations of those spells (except the Blindness one that I missed indeed). The others, as long as you use them correctly, don't grant additional saves. If these were such bad spells nobody would use them. But people use them, regularly. So what?

Maybe contrarily to you, those people just know how to use them, in coordination with their party, to make the most of them, even if they expect it not to last beyond one turn?

Also note that I NEVER talked about crowd control. Just about disabling powerful opponents, single-target opponents. Hence my list. Just quoted the Slow and other as example of spells that can be taken to complement to cover the crowd control part. :)

disabling opponents IS crowd control. they are one and the same.

and when we're talking about taking only 15 spells ever, i'm really not big on "well this spell is occasionally not awful" situations. i could actually see a wizard using most of those, albeit only rarely for some of them. but again, if we're talking about disabling a single monster reliably, bigby's hand is much more interesting most of the time. or wall of force. you know, the spells that sorcerers don't ever get.