Frenzied Rage Fix Idea

[Grey Watcher]

[Opening Disclaimer: this idea has probably been proposed before, so I apologize if I'm just dredging up an old argument because I missed it when it was a new argument. :smalltongue: ]

While I know it's not the only problem, a lot of people bemoan that gaining a level of exhaustion each time the Berserker Frenzies is too punishing. So what if you just added this?


Additionally, when you are in a Rage, you ignore all effects from exhaustion. When your Rage ends, all effects from exhaustion resume, including those from any new levels of exhaustion acquired during or as a result of your Rage.

Yes, the wording intentionally means you could potentially ward off death by exhaustion using Rage. How that interacts with a 20th level Barbarian's infini-rage, is a potential problem. Some thoughts on this include:

Ruling that you cannot "chain" your Rages together. You can't use the bonus action to "enter" Rage while you're already Raging and in that small window between the end of your last turn of Rage and the next chance you have to use a bonus action, you get hit with the full effects of whatever exhaustion you have, up to and including death by exhaustion if applicable.
Just letting 'em have it. At 20th level, being effectively immune to exhaustion in exchange for a mood disorder and insomnia is fine.


That potential for abuse aside, this could either be appended to Frenzy or to Relentless Rage. The former gives the Berserker a little something the other varieties of Barbarians don't have, the latter keeps all the "ignore death" abilities in one spot. I also can't tell if appending it to Frenzy would just be too early for it (though just throwing "at nth level" into that clause somewhere would probably fix that).

What do you think? Any good?

[MasterMercury]

It's an interesting idea, that a barbarian can ignore his fatigue, his hunger and thirst, and just focus on killing stuff. Thematically, works.

Mechanically, I don't see much of a problem with it. It helps a barb stay relevant in combat, but they are still going to have problems once their rage ends.

Clarification: Is this all rages for the frenzy barbarian, or just the ones where he enters the frenzy?

[PeteNutButter]

It's an interesting idea, that a barbarian can ignore his fatigue, his hunger and thirst, and just focus on killing stuff. Thematically, works.

Mechanically, I don't see much of a problem with it. It helps a barb stay relevant in combat, but they are still going to have problems once their rage ends.

Clarification: Is this all rages for the frenzy barbarian, or just the ones where he enters the frenzy?

If it's only frenzy that's more than balanced. Definitely a hair of the dog that bit you though... got a hangover from your frenzy? Get back to frenzying again...

Just like real life hangovers it never solves the problem... just delays and increases your struggle.

[Foxhound438]

Just like real life hangovers it never solves the problem... just delays and increases your struggle.

wrong. everything can be solved by drinking until you don't care. and you can't make me stop, either.

anyhow, I'd say it's a fine fix. Not that the archetype is in desperate need of adjustment in my opinion, I consider it to be more a conditional resource than a go-to solution to everything.

[Kryx]

Frenzy is bad because it costs a bonus action, not necessarily because it causes exhaustion. It doesn't work with the most common Barbarian fighting styles:
Doesn't work so well with GWM as GWM has a common(~30-50%) bonus action on a crit/kill
Doesn't work at all with PAM as PAM has a bonus action every round
Doesn't work at all with TWF as TWF has a bonus action every round

It does work with S&B as the barbarian won't be using Shield master to prone as it already has advantage.


So Frenzy doesn't work with the most common options. "Fixing Exhaustion" doesn't do anything to solve that. Removing the bonus action cost of frenzy would (similar function as haste).

[Lollerabe]

I'm with Kryx here, if you wanna FIX frenzy you have to rehaul the entire feature. Me and Kryx have different ways of going about this (his might be better as I haven't play tested mine).

The entire BA conflict is the root of evil, the exhaustion cost is just adding insult to injury (IMO)

[PeteNutButter]

If it's only frenzy that's more than balanced. Definitely a hair of the dog that bit you though... got a hangover from your frenzy? Get back to frenzying again...

Just like real life hangovers it never solves the problem... just delays and increases your struggle.

In my haste to be comical, I didn't clarify my opinion. Buffing Frenzy barbarians in this way would not be imbalanced, but it still doesn't make them close to the totem counterpart. Totem barbarians get an array of abilities they get to pick from, and several of them VERY strong. SCAG only made the power worse by adding more options to totem, thus more power creep. The layered options of totem is just too good by comparison, and so easily fit into any barbarian build. Frenzy on the other hand...


Frenzy is bad because it costs a bonus action, not necessarily because it causes exhaustion. It doesn't work with the most common Barbarian fighting styles:
Doesn't work so well with GWM as GWM has a common(~30-50%) bonus action on a crit/kill
Doesn't work at all with PAM as PAM has a bonus action every round
Doesn't work at all with TWF as TWF has a bonus action every round
It does work with S&B as the barbarian won't be using Shield master to prone as it already has advantage.
So Frenzy doesn't work with the most common options. "Fixing Exhaustion" doesn't do anything to solve that. Removing the bonus action cost of frenzy would (similar function as haste).

Kryx has a very strong point here, although I disagree on the S&B part. S&B barbs can still benefit from shield master, since they have advantage to prone foes, as long as there is another ally that goes before the foe it is more than worth it. Furthermore since they are aiming to be tanky through S&B, giving foes advantage to attack you is not something they'd be crazy about, especially if they can get advantage to attack them with a bonus action (typically unused on S&B). Exhaustion for 1d8+str doesn't really seem worth it.

I'd say GWM probably is the best to use frenzy, despite the overlap of the crit/kill bonus attack, just because of the damage of the extra attack is strong enough to want to ensure every bonus action gets an attack.



I'm with Kryx here, if you wanna FIX frenzy you have to rehaul the entire feature. Me and Kryx have different ways of going about this (his might be better as I haven't play tested mine).

The entire BA conflict is the root of evil, the exhaustion cost is just adding insult to injury (IMO)

Another thing they forgot to mention is the horrible self contained anti-synergy that raging itself is a bonus action. So you can never make a frenzy attack the turn you enter your rage. "I'm so mad right now I'm going crazy, but I'm going to wait till next turn to start showing it." In combats that are decided in 3-4 rounds, always spending the first one not using your sub-classes primary ability is pretty darn crap. I get the action economy reason of why it takes a bonus action, but all it does mechanically is nerf TWF(already weaker) and nerf frenzy(also already weaker).

Perhaps add that frenzy barbarians(or all barbs?) can enter rage without taking a bonus action.

Another solution I've seen proposed is to allow a con save at the end of the the frenzy to prevent it from exhausting the barbarian. Maybe make it something like DC 10+ number of rounds frenzied that day. That way its a drawback, that isn't a sure thing. Variability is always more fun. It enables players to take risks and feel rewards or punishments.

Say the frenzy barb is at 4 levels of exhaustion, but the party is in dire need of help... so he frenzies in hoping to make that con save post frenzy... #Heroic Moments

[dropbear8mybaby]

Or, you know, just do away with the exhaustion penalty entirely. It really doesn't imbalance anything and makes the sub only slightly more appealing. You also need to fix Intimidating Presence by basing the DC off of Strength instead of Charisma, because basing it off of Charisma not only makes it piss-weak, but also makes no sense.


Frenzy is bad because it costs a bonus action, not necessarily because it causes exhaustion.
What? No. Exhaustion is by far the worst part of it. And it doesn't conflict with Great Weapon Master that much since the proc from it doesn't happen very often anyway and makes it still worthwhile when the barbarian isn't raging.

[Specter]

All you need to fix Frenzy is to remove their worthless Intimidating Presence and add instead: "at 10th level, you no longer suffer exhaustion after a frenzy". Simple and elegant.

[Kryx]

Another thing they forgot to mention is the horrible self contained anti-synergy that raging itself is a bonus action. So you can never make a frenzy attack the turn you enter your rage. "I'm so mad right now I'm going crazy, but I'm going to wait till next turn to start showing it." In combats that are decided in 3-4 rounds, always spending the first one not using your sub-classes primary ability is pretty darn crap. I get the action economy reason of why it takes a bonus action, but all it does mechanically is nerf TWF(already weaker) and nerf frenzy(also already weaker).
Frenzy doesn't require a bonus action. Only rage does: "Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level. you can go into a frenzy when you rage."


What? No. Exhaustion is by far the worst part of it. And it doesn't conflict with Great Weapon Master that much since the proc from it doesn't happen very often anyway and makes it still worthwhile when the barbarian isn't raging.
Did you read my post? Doesn't seem like it. Exhaustion doesn't matter as the base feature simply doesn't work. GWM's cleave procs quite a bit actually. ~35-40% on average (math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1741155585))
Sure, it works better than the other styles, but is still an awful choice when considering the other archetype options.

Even with Exhaustion removed Frenzy is an awful choice for Barbarians as the feature is not compatible with the current options in the game when feats are used.


All you need to fix Frenzy is to remove their worthless Intimidating Presence and add instead: "at 10th level, you no longer suffer exhaustion after a frenzy". Simple and elegant.
I don't understand posts like this. There is an ongoing conversation that identifies several problems and then this post just says "HEY GUYS, EVERYTHING IS OK". I presume you simply looked at the OP and replied without reading the rest. Either join the conversation, or don't. /dndCommunityRant

Not only that, but you've suggested removing one of the main features that can deal with groups inside of combat or works outside of combat. It's a good feature (rated black on the guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389546-I-ll-NEVER-Die!-(A-Guide-to-the-5E-Barbarian))).

[Specter]

I don't understand posts like this. There is an ongoing conversation that identifies several problems and then this post just says "HEY GUYS, EVERYTHING IS OK". I presume you simply looked at the OP and replied without reading the rest. Either join the conversation, or don't. /dndCommunityRant

Not only that, but you've suggested removing one of the main features that can deal with groups inside of combat or works outside of combat. It's a good feature (rated black on the guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389546-I-ll-NEVER-Die!-(A-Guide-to-the-5E-Barbarian))).

Don't worry, I read OP. The title of the thread is "Frenzied Rage Fix Idea", so I'm proposing another Frenzied Rage Fix Idea, that has worked for my table. What's the mystery?

And I never said "everything is ok", on the contrary, I'm offering a solution that works so that the player doesn't need to be neurotically thinking "should I frenzy now or not?". It's similar to Font of Inspiration, an ability that improves what you can already do to avoid bad decisions.

You can even keep Intimidating Presence, which is very lame because Barbarians have Charisma as a dump stat anyway, and it would still work.

[Shaofoo]

Frenzy is bad because it costs a bonus action, not necessarily because it causes exhaustion. It doesn't work with the most common Barbarian fighting styles:
Doesn't work so well with GWM as GWM has a common(~30-50%) bonus action on a crit/kill
Doesn't work at all with PAM as PAM has a bonus action every round
Doesn't work at all with TWF as TWF has a bonus action every round

It does work with S&B as the barbarian won't be using Shield master to prone as it already has advantage.


So Frenzy doesn't work with the most common options. "Fixing Exhaustion" doesn't do anything to solve that. Removing the bonus action cost of frenzy would (similar function as haste).

I don't understand why "it doesn't work because it doesn't mesh with certain feats"? You might as well say that Rage is broken because Barbarians can't benefit from War Mage or Magic Initiate while raging.

GWM is situational, Frenzy just lets you use a bonus action when you couldn't. Plus isn't the best part of GWM the -5/+10, I am surprised that you would remember the extra stuff that GWM gets

PAM is a d4, you would be using at least a d6 with a Frenzy bonus action plus PAM has the extra ability of OA on entering reach. A loss in function of PAM but not useless for a Beserker.

Frenzy is better than TWF since you can apply the ability mod damage. In fact i don't see any reason why a Barbarian should go TWF outside of purely aesthetic reasons if we are purely talking numbers.

Seriously, if we are to analyze Frenzy we should do so on its own merits, not because it can't fully utilize certain feats.

As for my own fix, I just make it once a long rest, short and quick.

[PeteNutButter]

I don't understand why "it doesn't work because it doesn't mesh with certain feats"? You might as well say that Rage is broken because Barbarians can't benefit from War Mage or Magic Initiate while raging.

GWM is situational, Frenzy just lets you use a bonus action when you couldn't. Plus isn't the best part of GWM the -5/+10, I am surprised that you would remember the extra stuff that GWM gets

PAM is a d4, you would be using at least a d6 with a Frenzy bonus action plus PAM has the extra ability of OA on entering reach. A loss in function of PAM but not useless for a Beserker.

Frenzy is better than TWF since you can apply the ability mod damage. In fact i don't see any reason why a Barbarian should go TWF outside of purely aesthetic reasons if we are purely talking numbers.

Seriously, if we are to analyze Frenzy we should do so on its own merits, not because it can't fully utilize certain feats.

As for my own fix, I just make it once a long rest, short and quick.

Nothing can be compared "on its own merits." The game isn't a vacuum. In order to be a viable option it has to be competitive with other choices.

In a game that allows feats the mentioned combat feats add a lot and are typically taken by most melee at some point. Bottom line is frenzy does not work as well with those feats, as in too much overlap.

Furthermore there has to be a reason to take frenzy over totem. Currently you never want frenzy over totem if you were using something like PAM, as the d4 compared to 2d6 isn't worth all the abilities totem can get you PLUS costing exhaustion. The opportunity cost and exhuastion far outweigh the 4.5 avg dmg boost ~1 rage/day.

[Shaofoo]

Nothing can be compared "on its own merits." The game isn't a vacuum. In order to be a viable option it has to be competitive with other choices.

In a game that allows feats the mentioned combat feats add a lot and are typically taken by most melee at some point. Bottom line is frenzy does not work as well with those feats, as in too much overlap.


Emphasis bold. I don't think that you would have much merit about being competitive with other choices when 2 of the 3 choices can become optional at DM's discretion per the book and the last choice is considered to be laughable.

Frenzy might overlap with those feats but they don't make the feats useless or make Frenzy useless because you can either use it all the time (GWM) or have a bigger die (PAM). If you feel that having Frenzy and GWM/PAM isn't worth it that is your opinion, not some hard established fact.


Furthermore there has to be a reason to take BESERKER over totem. Currently you never want BESERKER over totem if you were using something like PAM, as the d4 compared to 2d6 isn't worth all the abilities totem can get you PLUS costing exhaustion. The opportunity cost and exhuastion far outweigh the 4.5 avg dmg boost ~1 rage/day.

FTFY. Basically if you feel that Totem is better than Beserker that is your opinion but it won't help actually trying to "fix" Beserker or help anything for that matter..

[Grey Watcher]

So, I guess to clarify (and I definitely accept this as my own dang fault), I didn't intend for this to be "You guys, Frenzied Rage is all better now thanks to one or two additional sentences!" My intent was more "Well, here's something that can shore up an issue with it that I have seen many a complaint over": specifically, that the +1 exhaustion penalty makes it effectively a 1/long rest ability (and one that you can really only use in the last fight before said rest, to boot), since even that first level of exhaustion more than negates the benefits of Frenzied Rage.

I didn't go with striking the exhaustion penalty altogether because I figured I'd preserve at least some of the design intent that Frenzy isn't something you want to do every single combat, but prevent it from effectively benching you for all subsequent combats. That said, I'll concede that make all Rages into Frenzied Rages for the sub-class that's specifically meant to be better at Raging also makes a lot of sense. So, :shrug:

As for the Bonus Action economy problem, I had either not heard or forgotten about it as of that writing, so meh. :smallsigh:

PS: For the rapidly diminishing amount that it's worth at this point, it was supposed to be that even ordinary Rage would grant the "ignore exhaustion" ability (provided, of course, you had the class feature this clause ended up attached to).

[Theodoxus]

So Frenzy doesn't work with the most common options. "Fixing Exhaustion" doesn't do anything to solve that. Removing the bonus action cost of frenzy would (similar function as haste).

I had commented similarly, during the first pass on Berserker way back a couple years ago - comparing the bonus action of berserk vs the no action of the Ranger's horde breaker ability. At the time it was shot down and I gave up.

I'm fine with it either being a BA and no exhaustion or being free with exhaustion.

Honestly, what I did was roll all the berzerker abilities into the base class and then added the Iron Juggernaut as an archetype. So far it's working fine.

[Specter]

Don't people think that by going Frenzy, you don't even need PAM or GWM? You can boost your STR earlier, or just go for another strategy. Want to kill Wizards? Mage Slayer. Want to be a real combat brute? Fell Handed. Want to outlive Bearbarians? Tough. Think broader, gents.

[Shaofoo]

So, I guess to clarify (and I definitely accept this as my own dang fault), I didn't intend for this to be "You guys, Frenzied Rage is all better now thanks to one or two additional sentences!" My intent was more "Well, here's something that can shore up an issue with it that I have seen many a complaint over": specifically, that the +1 exhaustion penalty makes it effectively a 1/long rest ability (and one that you can really only use in the last fight before said rest, to boot), since even that first level of exhaustion more than negates the benefits of Frenzied Rage.

I didn't go with striking the exhaustion penalty altogether because I figured I'd preserve at least some of the design intent that Frenzy isn't something you want to do every single combat, but prevent it from effectively benching you for all subsequent combats. That said, I'll concede that make all Rages into Frenzied Rages for the sub-class that's specifically meant to be better at Raging also makes a lot of sense. So, :shrug:

As for the Bonus Action economy problem, I had either not heard or forgotten about it as of that writing, so meh. :smallsigh:

PS: For the rapidly diminishing amount that it's worth at this point, it was supposed to be that even ordinary Rage would grant the "ignore exhaustion" ability (provided, of course, you had the class feature this clause ended up attached to).

I personally don't see it as a problem. I think that a lot of "problems" are people repeating memes over and over again. You will notice that people tend to usually name the subclass Frenzy or Frenzy Barbarian instead of the proper Beserker and they tend to focus on.

I mean if you look at the exhaustion penalties you might find that they aren't as dire as you think they are. Disadvantage on ability checks is only bad if you grapple in combat and even then Rage negates that disadvantage, Halving your speed might seem bad but Barbarians do also have the bonus to speed as well. Even disadvantage on attack rolls is mitigated by Reckless Attack (saving throws you are out of luck). And if you really want to stretch it your resistances could maybe cover the halving of your HP. Basically the Barbarian can help mitigate the penalties for having exhaustion. Of course recovering that much exhaustion is very dire but considering some campaigns work on the 5MWD mentality you could theoretically wipe out all exhaustion if time isn't an issue.

I do think that Frenzy should be changed around but I don't think the consensus came from understanding but rather from the knee jerk reaction that "Exhaustion can kill you!".

Seriously, I would probably say that if exhaustion is so important that all exhaustion caused by Frenzy be wiped in one long rest instead of one per day or taking a cue from a chase rule in the DMG that had you do maneuvers and accrue exhaustion as well your exhaustion is wiped after a short rest as well. I think the downtime is the problem not that the exhaustion can eventually kill you (so can a point blank fireball but people don't complain... wait they do with Wild Sorcerer, never mind).

[PeteNutButter]

I personally don't see it as a problem. I think that a lot of "problems" are people repeating memes over and over again. You will notice that people tend to usually name the subclass Frenzy or Frenzy Barbarian instead of the proper Beserker and they tend to focus on.

I mean if you look at the exhaustion penalties you might find that they aren't as dire as you think they are. Disadvantage on ability checks is only bad if you grapple in combat and even then Rage negates that disadvantage, Halving your speed might seem bad but Barbarians do also have the bonus to speed as well. Even disadvantage on attack rolls is mitigated by Reckless Attack (saving throws you are out of luck). And if you really want to stretch it your resistances could maybe cover the halving of your HP. Basically the Barbarian can help mitigate the penalties for having exhaustion. Of course recovering that much exhaustion is very dire but considering some campaigns work on the 5MWD mentality you could theoretically wipe out all exhaustion if time isn't an issue.

I do think that Frenzy should be changed around but I don't think the consensus came from understanding but rather from the knee jerk reaction that "Exhaustion can kill you!".

Seriously, I would probably say that if exhaustion is so important that all exhaustion caused by Frenzy be wiped in one long rest instead of one per day or taking a cue from a chase rule in the DMG that had you do maneuvers and accrue exhaustion as well your exhaustion is wiped after a short rest as well. I think the downtime is the problem not that the exhaustion can eventually kill you (so can a point blank fireball but people don't complain... wait they do with Wild Sorcerer, never mind).

A caveat: the first level of exhaustion is also gives disadvantage on initiative, which ironically is eventually also offset by the barbarian's level 7 feature.

I largely agree, but you are neglecting the possibility of foes/environment causing further exhaustion. Picking up exhaustion levels through more traditional means could prove deadly to the poor berserker. The downtime is indeed the problem.


Frenzy doesn't require a bonus action. Only rage does: "Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level. you can go into a frenzy when you rage."
I know. I said you can never make a frenzy attack the turn you enter your rage. That to me is a big failure of the berserker. If they just made it like a single target Horde Breaker it'd be amazing. "During your frenzy, once one each of your turns when you hit a foe with a melee weapon attack you may make another melee weapon attack at that foe." Probably be too good, but it has a slight downside of not working against mooks if you one-shot them. At least then it'd be worth the drawback.

[Kryx]

Stuff
Frenzy isn't underpowered in a game that doesn't use feats. Great, can we move on to discuss feats as the vast majority of the D&D user base who uses this forum use feats?

Ugh I don't have the will to fight this one based on my interaction with the D&D community today. I've provided the math before that shows GWM and PAM benefit by a very small amount from taking frenzy. So little that it would make no sense to choose that ~10% more DPR over the massive benefits that totem offers.
But in the end you won't change your mind even when I show evidence of it being very weak. So I'm not going to bother this time~



Don't people think that by going Frenzy, you don't even need PAM or GWM?
The whole point of the archetype is to do significant amounts of damage and your argument is "Hey, archetype based on damage! You don't have to take the most damaging feats in the game! You can instead take this archetype that gives only slightly more damage than those options! Oh, totem? Ya, just ignore that guy who can do nearly as much damage as you and not die from damage or exhaustion."

That doesn't fly. The archetype is about doing damage - it should be compatible with the main ways of doing damage.



Honestly, what I did was roll all the berzerker abilities into the base class and then added the Iron Juggernaut as an archetype. So far it's working fine.
I'd be curious to see what you came up with. My fix is working pretty well, but I'm always curious to see other options.



I know. I said you can never make a frenzy attack the turn you enter your rage. That to me is a big failure of the berserker. If they just made it like a single target Horde Breaker it'd be amazing. "During your frenzy, once one each of your turns when you hit a foe with a melee weapon attack you may make another melee weapon attack at that foe." Probably be too good, but it has a slight downside of not working against mooks if you one-shot them. At least then it'd be worth the drawback.
I misunderstood, my bad. I would suggest changing frenzy so that activating rage doesn't require a bonus action in that case. I do so.

[Maxilian]

Yes, the wording intentionally means you could potentially ward off death by exhaustion using Rage. How that interacts with a 20th level Barbarian's infini-rage, is a potential problem.

Actually they will have to sleep eventually, so... sooner than later they will leave the Exhaustion, that means that as soon as they do, they will fall into eternal sleep (they will die)

[Specter]

You're being oversimplistic, I'm guessing on purpose.

If you take +2STR, you will deal more damage. If you take Mage Slayer, you will deal more damage against spellcasters. If you take Tough, you will end up doing more damage simply because you stay alive longer. Exhaustion blows, but it's not damage's concern.

Since you're on feats so much, don't forget the Totem boys absolutely need to take Resilient (wis). You don't wanna turn that damage machine on the team, do you? So while you spent your first two asi's on feats, Frenzy already maximized Strenght and is dealing great damage as well. Both archetypes work, and my suggestion was simply to remove the exhaustion tax. I move for dismissal.

[Shaofoo]

Frenzy isn't underpowered in a game that doesn't use feats. Great, can we move on to discuss feats as the vast majority of the D&D user base who uses this forum use feats?

Ugh I don't have the will to fight this one based on my interaction with the D&D community today. I've provided the math before that shows GWM and PAM benefit by a very small amount from taking frenzy. So little that it would make no sense to choose that ~10% more DPR over the massive benefits that totem offers.
But in the end you won't change your mind even when I show evidence of it being very weak. So I'm not going to bother this time~




Considering that you previously blasted a poster for not reading you seem to not have read (or fully comprehended) my post yourself. You seem to be referencing another poster.

Also math isn't the end all be all and as I have said before, the benefits are there but if the benefits aren't enough then that is just your opinion. Frenzy doesn't invalidate PAM and GWM and PAM/GWM doesn't invalidate Frenzy. They may overlap and that overlap might be too much for your tastes but they don't invalidate it.

Seriously your -5/+10 crusade is so great that I can't believe you are saying that Frenzy invalidates GWM when I would think that a GWM would want Frenzy to guarantee attacking as a bonus action all the time.

Also it is very hard to equate a DPR increase over a non DPR increase. Lets look at the Totem bonuses

Bear: Resistance to almost all damage, great for defensive does nothing for the offensive.

Eagle: Opportunity attacks made on you at disadvantage, same deal as great defensive but nothing on the offensive.

Wolf: Advantage on attack rolls... for your teammates. This does raise DPR but it is dependent on the team at all. Alone Wolf is useless.

So unless your math can directly calculate a DPR increase versus non DPR increase then you have provided nothing at all math related when it comes to the benefits of Beserker vs Totem.

So I won't change my mind because you have provided nothing but opinions, which is fine and dandy.


Actually they will have to sleep eventually, so... sooner than later they will leave the Exhaustion, that means that as soon as they do, they will fall into eternal sleep (they will die)

There is nothing in the rules that says that you need to sleep. In fact you don't need to eat or drink either if you can accumulate exhaustion.

[Kryx]

If you take +2STR, you will deal more damage.
+2 Str pales in comparison to GWM. GWM does 57% more damage than +2 Str. We don't need to get into that argument, but there is absolutely no comparison in this regard. Math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=275734750)
http://i.imgur.com/CKyQkj5.png


If you take Mage Slayer, you will deal more damage against spellcasters.
Great, a feat that will affect a very small portion of enemies. 87/454 monsters in the monster manual have spellcasting. That's < 20%. Even if we took off 50 for the small beasts that 87/404 = 21.5%. Still a niche choice.


If you take Tough, you will end up doing more damage simply because you stay alive longer.
Tough is a great feat. However it doesn't compare at all to Bear totem's resistance. So if we're comparing bear with GWM vs berserker with tough then totem comes out ahead significantly.


Since you're on feats so much, don't forget the Totem boys absolutely need to take Resilient (wis).
Ummm, what? A high damage build needs Resilient (Wis)? Then it's needed for both builds and isn't worth discussing.

[Kryx]

Also math isn't the end all be all
Cool, you don't care about math in a discussion about balance. Guess we're done here then. Same experiences I've had with you in the past on balance discussions as I expected.

[Shaofoo]

Cool, you don't care about math in a discussion about balance. Guess we're done here then. Same experiences I've had with you in the past on balance discussions as I expected.

Wow you are two for two in reading comprehension today and taking it completely out of context.

I never said that I didn't care about the math but rather that you can't prove it with math on a direct basis, and considering that you don't seem to want to address the focus of DPR calculations on non-DPR abilities (you did say that Totem is better than Frenzy but yet only mention the DPR potential of the feats).

But you seem to be more focused on taking shots of me than any kind of discussion, considering your response. It doesn't make your side look good when you duck and fail to discuss basic questions and just start to poopoo post..

Seriously show me the math of Frenzy vs 3rd level Totem abilities.

[MasterMercury]

So, for frenzy the two main problems are the exhaustion and the fact that it takes a bonus action. Personally, I find the bonus action useful, because I can use my action to dash or dodge (disengaging is for pansies), and still attack on that turn, which is useful.

The exhaustion part is a pain. What my table does, is the first frenzy doesn't cost exhaustion, but every one after that does.

[Shaofoo]

So, for frenzy the two main problems are the exhaustion and the fact that it takes a bonus action. Personally, I find the bonus action useful, because I can use my action to dash or dodge (disengaging is for pansies), and still attack on that turn, which is useful.

The exhaustion part is a pain. What my table does, is the first frenzy doesn't cost exhaustion, but every one after that does.

You can only Dash, Disengage or Dodge as a bonus action if you multiclass Rogue or have some ability outside a Barbarian that gives it to you.

The only thing that a Barbarian needs a bonus action outside of Frenzy is to activate Rage or if you are a 14th level totem Barb with the Wolf feature that lets you knock enemies prone as a Bonus action.

Nevermind I misread.

[Lollerabe]

He is saying because he can attack as a BA through frenzy he can use his action on dodge/dash. So he can turn no damage turns into some damage turns, it's niche but it's there.

[Shaofoo]

He is saying because he can attack as a BA through frenzy he can use his action on dodge/dash. So he can turn no damage turns into some damage turns, it's niche but it's there.

Yep I did misread, amended the post.

[Kryx]

The DPR benefit of a 5th level Barbarian GWM vs GWM with frenzy is 36.5 DPR vs 37.6 DPR. That's an increase of 3%. Far less than I remember. Numbers, as always, are on my spreadsheet.

It's an awful choice. I don't even have to look at totem to tell you it gives more value than 3% more DPR.

As expected you'll continue to ignore math while spouting your opinion which has no mathematical basis all the while challenging me to provide you with more math to ignore. Always a pleasure.

[Shaofoo]

The DPR benefit of a 5th level Barbarian GWM vs GWM with frenzy is 36.5 DPR vs 37.6 DPR. That's an increase of 3%. Far less than I remember. Numbers, as always, are on my spreadsheet.

It's an awful choice. I don't even have to look at totem to tell you it gives more value than 3% more DPR.

As expected you'll continue to ignore math while spouting your opinion which has no mathematical basis all the while challenging me to provide you with more math to ignore. Always a pleasure.

And three for three.

Seriously, the fact that Frenzy + GWM > GWM is significant enough to consider even if you don't agree that the amount that is different is somehow relevant. Your math backs up my point that Frenzy is relevant with GWM but also that math without any context is useless.

Did you calculate the DPR when the enemy is alone? You said that somehow you can activate GWM bonus action 30-50% but the only sure way to activate it alone is on a crit, you can't count on having multiple enemies to cleave out from (or even have the enemies always aligned so perfectly). Unless there is some special build that lets me crit 30-50% of the time. So theoretically for every one time I can bonus action GWM there are 19 other times that I can't while I can do it all 20 times with Frenzy. This is already very suspect.

And again you say that 3% increase of DPR... which is still more than the 0% of DPR that Totem brings to the table (Wolf notwithstanding but like I said only Friends benefit so for this purpose Wolf is useless for DPR like everything else Totem). If you want to say that the benefit is too little that you would rather personally use Totem then say that. I welcome your math from the Totem side

And as expected you ignore simple logic and building up situations that favor your views. Seriously it is very easy to deconstruct your "math" if you think a bit. So yeah forgive me if I ignore your math because I find it suspect from the get go. But hey glad you are having pleasure talking to me ;).

[Specter]

Ummm, what? A high damage build needs Resilient (Wis)? Then it's needed for both builds and isn't worth discussing.

Berserkers have Mindless Rage, which prevents them from being charmed or frightened while raging. Totem doesn't. So if they want to have any chance against any enchantment that would have them destroying the party, they absolutely need wis prof. save.

[DKing9114]

I've been considering a potential fix myself. First, the extra attack is changed from a bonus action to a single additional attack, as follows. "Once on each turn, when you make a melee attack against an enemy, you may make an additional melee attack against that same enemy." Thematically, it fits the berserker's "kill, kill, KILLLLLLLLL!" flavor, and mechanically it doesn't use the bonus action. While I often find myself disagreeing with Kryx's design concepts, I do agree that the bonus action is a significant expenditure for this archetype.

As to the second concern, the exhaustion penalty, I would consider letting the berserker reduce exhaustion during a short rest, BUT must spend at least two hit dice in order to do so, representing that he is drawing on a well of strength in order to push himself forward and ignore his body's needs. The amount of dice spent might increase each time this ability is used before the character has rested to full hit dice and 0 exhaustion

Now that he isn't using his bonus action for the frenzied additional attack, I offer a change to the Intimidating Presence class feature, in which it takes a bonus action instead of an action. In combat this ability offers decent control for a 10th level feature, but because it ties up the barbarian's action it will often feel like a wasted feature.

These changes may actually be a little too powerful, so I would like to add one drawback to using frenzy, which I feel is thematically appropriate: "While frenzied, the character must pass a Wisdom save to use their action to do anything other than attack the nearest enemy in melee." More or less the opposite of being frightened; he/she must move into melee range if not currently in range, using the Dash action if necessary, and making an attack if able to do so. Similarly, the 14th level Retaliation feature is changed from "you can use your reaction" to "you must use your reaction" when frenzied. I feel this fits the stories of berserkers fairly well (particularly within D&D worlds), and also gives the DM the ability to use the berserker's battle rage against him.

[Shaofoo]

I've been considering a potential fix myself. First, the extra attack is changed from a bonus action to a single additional attack, as follows. "Once on each turn, when you make a melee attack against an enemy, you may make an additional melee attack against that same enemy." Thematically, it fits the berserker's "kill, kill, KILLLLLLLLL!" flavor, and mechanically it doesn't use the bonus action. While I often find myself disagreeing with Kryx's design concepts, I do agree that the bonus action is a significant expenditure for this archetype.

As to the second concern, the exhaustion penalty, I would consider letting the berserker reduce exhaustion during a short rest, BUT must spend at least two hit dice in order to do so, representing that he is drawing on a well of strength in order to push himself forward and ignore his body's needs. The amount of dice spent might increase each time this ability is used before the character has rested to full hit dice and 0 exhaustion

Now that he isn't using his bonus action for the frenzied additional attack, I offer a change to the Intimidating Presence class feature, in which it takes a bonus action instead of an action. In combat this ability offers decent control for a 10th level feature, but because it ties up the barbarian's action it will often feel like a wasted feature.

These changes may actually be a little too powerful, so I would like to add one drawback to using frenzy, which I feel is thematically appropriate: "While frenzied, the character must pass a Wisdom save to use their action to do anything other than attack the nearest enemy in melee." More or less the opposite of being frightened; he/she must move into melee range if not currently in range, using the Dash action if necessary, and making an attack if able to do so. Similarly, the 14th level Retaliation feature is changed from "you can use your reaction" to "you must use your reaction" when frenzied. I feel this fits the stories of berserkers fairly well (particularly within D&D worlds), and also gives the DM the ability to use the berserker's battle rage against him.

I don't see how is a bonus action a significant expenditure for a Barbarian, the only thing that a Barbarian can do with their bonus action is activate/deactivate your Rage and knock an enemy prone with the 14th level Wolf Totem ability (which is mutually exclusive with Beserker). It isn't like a Rogue or a Monk that does have abilities from the getgo that uses their bonus action constantly.

Also I am not sure how making Intimidating Presence a bonus action be useful. The problem is that it uses Charisma not that it takes an action, taking a bonus action is still a wasted feature because you are trying to fear using a substandard stat.

And the whole forced movement is just way too punishing for players. I don't think it is more thematic that a Barbarian will only concentrate on who is closest to him than someone that he really wants to kill. Also forcing to use your reaction is again punishing the player for using his class skill because he wants to conserve his reaction. Don't take away player choices by forcing the DM to control the player.

[N810]

If you want to fix frenzy builds..?


replace "Intimidating Presence" with "you may recover 2 levels of exhaustion on a short rest."


Also I wouldn't hurt if frenzy just added +1 attack without using up a bonus action.

[dropbear8mybaby]

If you want to fix frenzy builds..?

replace "Intimidating Presence" with "you may recover 2 levels of exhaustion on a short rest."

Also I wouldn't hurt if frenzy just added +1 attack without using up a bonus action.

So the class only sucks for 10 levels. Awesome. And flat bonuses are never a good idea.

[dropbear8mybaby]

How about this?


Frenzy. Your Reckless Attacks are so frenzied and ferocious that you do not grant advantage to anyone you attack with Reckless Attacks, due to the Reckless Attack feature, as long as you are raging.

And combine it with this:


Intimidating Presence. This ability now uses your Strength score for the DC instead of Charisma, and only requires a bonus action to initiate and continue on subsequent turns.

The frenzy change above doesn't limit getting advantage against the barbarian via other means, just negates the negative aspect of Reckless Attack for anyone that the barbarian uses it against. That is, essentially, a damage mitigation ability, just in a very roundabout way.

And then Intimidating Presence takes the ferociousness aspect even further, making the barbarian so damned terrifying to fight against, that it hews through enemies with reckless abandon AND is difficult to hit when its attention is focused on one enemy.

[Specter]

That requires using a class choice, and goes against the classic frenzy of wild abandon. So nah. Dropbear's suggestion was better. I also think mine was better, but I'm obviously partial.

[Shaofoo]

How about this?



And combine it with this:



The frenzy change above doesn't limit getting advantage against the barbarian via other means, just negates the negative aspect of Reckless Attack for anyone that the barbarian uses it against. That is, essentially, a damage mitigation ability, just in a very roundabout way.

And then Intimidating Presence takes the ferociousness aspect even further, making the barbarian so damned terrifying to fight against, that it hews through enemies with reckless abandon AND is difficult to hit when its attention is focused on one enemy.

I don't think damage mitigation is very thematic for a Beserker, considering that damage mitigation is basically 2/3 of the totem already.

Also I don't think using an action is a problem with Intimidating Presence, fear is a very powerful ability to be able to use it basically at will (disadvantage on attacks and abilities and can't move closer to you). I agree with using Strength for the check so it can actually be useful but bonus action is too much. You can still attack and fear in the same turn with Frenzy.

Actually talking about this I got another idea for Frenzy, make it so that Frenzy acts like the Haste spell extra action so you get an extra action to do all the things that you can with Haste. Note only the extra action is applied not the AC buff or extra speed or Dex saving throw advantage and no loss turn after the rage (or maybe you would rather have a lost turn instead of exhaustion).

[Zalabim]

I think the primary downside of frenzy being disadvantage on all ability checks is un-fun, so removing the exhaustion is the most useful change to be made. I feel that limiting it to instead once per short or long rest keeps the theme of it being a tiring ability without saddling the player with disadvantage on a bunch of unrelated activities. Frenzy really needs to be used multiple times a day if it's to provide any competition at all for the leader effect of Wolf totem.

Ok, ok. Imagine this scenario:
Target has 100 hp.
Character 1 does 50 damage and hits half the time.
Character 2 does 25 damage and hits every time.

The two characters flip a coin to decide who goes first.

Which character is more likely to deal the final blow (and thus get an extra attack from GWM)?

Character 2 gets the last hit 59.375% of the time.Assuming Character 1's PoV.

.5 goes first starts at 100
[.25 hit first 50 remaining
50-25= 25 remaining
*.125 hit 0 remaining (kill)
*.125 miss 25 remaining
25-25= 0 remaining (no kill)] .25 resolved.

[.25 miss first 100 remaining
100-25= 75 remaining
*.125 hit 25 remaining
25-25=0 remaining (no kill)
.125 miss 75 remaining
75-25=50 remaining
*.0625 hit 0 remaining (kill)
.0625 miss 50 remaining
50-25=25 remaining
*.03125 hit 0 remaining (kill)
*.03125 miss 25 remaining
25-25=0 remaining (no kill))] .25 resolved.

.5 goes second starts at 75
*[.25 hit second 25 remaining
25-25=0 (no kill)] .25 resolved

[.25 miss second 75 remaining
75-25=50 remaining
*.125 hit 0 remaining (kill)
.125 miss 50 remaining
50-25=25 remaining
*.0625 hit 0 remaining (kill)
*.0625 miss 25 remaining
25-25=0 (no kill)] .25 resolved

On the subject, assuming some normal conditions (like AC 15, HP > 40 and no one provoking an OA from a half-orc with a greatsword), here's what I figure for level 5. Half orc, greatsword, barbarian.

18 Str
13*.8775+10.5*.0975=12.43125(rage)
11*.8775+10.5*.0975=10.67625(no rage)
18(3 rages, 3 rounds)*12.43125+12(5 total encounters-3 rages, 3 rounds)*10.67625=351.8775(normal)+74.5875(3 frenzy, 3 rounds, so 2 attacks each)=426.465 (frenzy)

GWM
22*.5775+10.5*.0975=13.72875(rage GWM)
20*.5775+10.5*.0975=12.57375(no rage GWM)
18(3 rages, 3 rounds)*13.72875+12(5 total encoutners-3 rages, 3 rounds)*12.57375=398.0025+30.5601975(rage crit bonus attacks)+27.9891675(no rage crit bonus attacks)=456.551865 (GWM)+more from finishing blows.
398.0025+82.3725(Frenzy bonus attacks)+27.9891675(no rage crit bonus attacks)=508.3641675 (GWM with Frenzy)+more from finishing blows.

That assumes you suffer or remove the exhaustion to use frenzy on all rages. If you instead remove the action cost from frenzy's attacks, it's 389.17125 for frenzy used once (37.29375 per use) and 497.738115 for frenzy used once (41.18625 per use) with GWM. Up to 463.75875 (Str) and 580.110615 (GWM).

Assuming no crits fail to have a target for the bonus attack and not assuming any killing blows for extra bonus attacks, though I left space for them and you could figure the absolute maximum if you want. It's just really hard to generalize that kind of thing.

As a special mention, with 5 encounters, it's probable that all damage after ~350 for the day is overkill, and either shortening the encounters or killing more than one adventurer's adventuring day's worth of XP in creatures.

@Dropbear: I do not think that changing the berserker's abilities to provide effectively or literally defensive benefits is really in-theme.

[Shaofoo]

I think the primary downside of frenzy being disadvantage on all ability checks is un-fun, so removing the exhaustion is the most useful change to be made. I feel that limiting it to instead once per short or long rest keeps the theme of it being a tiring ability without saddling the player with disadvantage on a bunch of unrelated activities. Frenzy really needs to be used multiple times a day if it's to provide any competition at all for the leader effect of Wolf totem.


People see Barbarians as the muscle and the Barbarian Rage can mitigate the disadvantage of Strength checks if you need too and Barbarians later down the line can basically just use their Strength Score if the check is lower. That isn't say that you can't play a highly intellectual Barbarian with 20 Int with skills in all that but from a thematic standpoint the Barbarian is strength and he has that covered.

Also I am not sure how you can compare the Wolf Totem ability with Frenzy because that is totally dependent on the team that you have, not everyone can benefit from the ability (if you are the only front line guy then the Wolf ability is useless because it only works for melee rolls). I am not saying that the Wolf isn't competitive but that the Wolf isn't consistent, at least Frenzy's ability is totally dependent on you and not someone else.

[Laserlight]

I don't see how is a bonus action a significant expenditure for a Barbarian, the only thing that a Barbarian can do with their bonus action is activate/deactivate your Rage and knock an enemy prone with the 14th level Wolf Totem ability

That assumes you don't have a feat or multiclass which gives you some other bonus action. Shield Master or PAM, for example.

[Shaofoo]

That assumes you don't have a feat or multiclass which gives you some other bonus action. Shield Master or PAM, for example.

But then that is outside the Barbarian class itself. Not every multiclass or feat is supposed to be fully optimal for all combinations.

[Laserlight]

But then that is outside the Barbarian class itself. Not every multiclass or feat is supposed to be fully optimal for all combinations.

But when a combination that reasonably ought to work--such as Shield Master--doesn't, then the class could stand a little repair work, yes?

[Shaofoo]

But when a combination that reasonably ought to work--such as Shield Master--doesn't, then the class could stand a little repair work, yes?

It seems to work very well. You shove with Shield Master and then attack with Frenzy, how is this not working? It works better than GWM and PAM and even then it doesn't invalidate those feats at all (GWM has the allpowerful -5/+10 and with PAM you could easily use the d4 for less tough encounters and save Frenzy for the bigger battles). There is no feat that I can see that Frenzy invalidates or that invalidates Frenzy (Unlike say Magic Initiate and Rage).

Just to reiterate my point, I do think that Frenzy should be changed but it is more because of the long term effects and not because of anything else. It should be done as X per long rest or have the exhaustion be wiped on a long rest.

It seems that when some people say that there is a "problem" it is more an appeal for more power instead of fixing something that does not work. Even as it is written Frenzy is fine if a little punishing but people just made "You can kill yourself with Frenzy" as a meme and it is stuck with us forever, just like "Bearbarians" is another meme.

[Lollerabe]

It's not a meme, the math just shows it adds a pityful 3% compared to some very very very strong features such as wolf/bear totem. The feature suck and that is not just an opinion that's a fact, the exhaustion levels are just taking it from 'ugh this feature is kind of crap no?' to 'wow were they high when they designed this?'.

It has 0 synergy with the combat feats like shieldmaster cause the shove is also a BA, hell it dosent even make sense with two weapon fighting either.
I don't know why you have this weird need to come to its defense when the math clearly shows that the feature is crazy lackluster, and Kryx is not the only one that arrived at that conclusion. You thinking that a 3% damg increase is remotely worth it compared to the totem powers is the opinion, not us saying its a horrible trade.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Also I don't think using an action is a problem with Intimidating Presence, fear is a very powerful ability to be able to use it basically at will (disadvantage on attacks and abilities and can't move closer to you). I agree with using Strength for the check so it can actually be useful but bonus action is too much. You can still attack and fear in the same turn with Frenzy.

Fear against one opponent at a time and takes a bonus action, meaning it competes with other options and therefore would only be used if a person wants to specialise in that option (thus eliminating alternatives that use the bonus action) or in special cases, like against a boss where it's an appropriate ability.

And it functions as a further, round-a-bout, damage mitigation strategy. People are saying that damage mitigation isn't a barbarian feature and yet, it's pretty much always been the primary reason to play a barbarian, a.k.a. a massive tank dealing out big damage. That's the barbarian to a T.

[Zalabim]

But when a combination that reasonably ought to work--such as Shield Master--doesn't, then the class could stand a little repair work, yes?
Barbarians don't have fighting styles. If any fighting-style-specific feat doesn't work quite perfectly for them, that's really reinforcing their archetype. It's a feature.

Most of them work fine for barbarians anyway, if not quite as fine as they work for fighters.


People see Barbarians as the muscle and the Barbarian Rage can mitigate the disadvantage of Strength checks if you need too and Barbarians later down the line can basically just use their Strength Score if the check is lower. That isn't say that you can't play a highly intellectual Barbarian with 20 Int with skills in all that but from a thematic standpoint the Barbarian is strength and he has that covered.

Also I am not sure how you can compare the Wolf Totem ability with Frenzy because that is totally dependent on the team that you have, not everyone can benefit from the ability (if you are the only front line guy then the Wolf ability is useless because it only works for melee rolls). I am not saying that the Wolf isn't competitive but that the Wolf isn't consistent, at least Frenzy's ability is totally dependent on you and not someone else.

Not all ability checks are strength checks, not all of the barbarians skills are strength skills (in fact, only one of them is), and you can't rage for every time you need a strength check until level 20. Even when your class feature does offset the penalty, you no longer have the advantage you used to have. So disadvantage on all your ability checks is going to be noticeable.

Wolf totem is dependent on your group, but a lot of people are going to know who's in their group. Anyway, the threshold for wolf totem to be better than one frenzy a day is absurdly low, like "if anyone else in your group regularly benefits from the advantage" low. That should be pretty easy to figure out. Are you the only person in the party who regularly makes melee attacks against enemies within 5 feet of you while raging? If you are, then don't take wolf totem.

If you're in a party with an archer Hunter, a Light (is there a good single word for domain clerics?), an Evoker, and a Wild Mage, it might still be worth taking Wolf Totem just for Spiritual Weapon. Not blue text. It is literally worth considering how often your cleric is using spiritual weapon.

Also, Frenzy normally can be used more than once a day. It depends on the length of your adventure and your downtime, but if you have an adventure that goes Start -> long rest -> End -> downtime, you could use frenzy four times in those two days (with the last use leaving you with 3 levels of exhaustion after the boss fight) and then have plenty of time to recover. If you instead have adventures non-stop, then you might not even use frenzy once each day as you can get exhaustion elsewhere. I sympathize with wanting to level out how often frenzy can be used from group to group.

[Ninja Edit]:
And it functions as a further, round-a-bout, damage mitigation strategy. People are saying that damage mitigation isn't a barbarian feature and yet, it's pretty much always been the primary reason to play a barbarian, a.k.a. a massive tank dealing out big damage. That's the barbarian to a T.
There is space to convert the terrifying barbarian tank, but that is not berserker to a T.

[dropbear8mybaby]

There is space to convert the terrifying barbarian tank, but that is not berserker to a T.

Because a berserker isn't terrifying? Seriously?

[Shaofoo]

Fear against one opponent at a time and takes a bonus action, meaning it competes with other options and therefore would only be used if a person wants to specialise in that option (thus eliminating alternatives that use the bonus action) or in special cases, like against a boss where it's an appropriate ability.

The only thing that it competes with is Rage, there is nothing else that a Barbarian has that would make you compete for a bonus action according to your fix. I don't count feats because those are chosen by the player, if you feel that GWM/PAM isn't worth it without the bonus action ability then you pick another feat or an ASI. I don't consider a less optimal choice to be a problem (because again that would mean that Rage is broken because it totally blocks Magic Initiate, at least PAM/GWM has other abilities).


And it functions as a further, round-a-bout, damage mitigation strategy. People are saying that damage mitigation isn't a barbarian feature and yet, it's pretty much always been the primary reason to play a barbarian, a.k.a. a massive tank dealing out big damage. That's the barbarian to a T.

I did not say that damage mitigation isn't a BARBARIAN feature (especially considering that you get resistances from Rage). I am saying that damage mitigation is the TOTEM's thing and the BESERKER should be more focused on damage.



Not all ability checks are strength checks, not all of the barbarians skills are strength skills (in fact, only one of them is), and you can't rage for every time you need a strength check until level 20. Even when your class feature does offset the penalty, you no longer have the advantage you used to have. So disadvantage on all your ability checks is going to be noticeable.

If we are talking about battle the only thing that matters is Grappling which is a Strength check. Beserker is fully focused on the battle aspect of the game unlike Totem which includes two abilities for out of battle utility. OF course I am not saying


Wolf totem is dependent on your group, but a lot of people are going to know who's in their group. Anyway, the threshold for wolf totem to be better than one frenzy a day is absurdly low, like "if anyone else in your group regularly benefits from the advantage" low. That should be pretty easy to figure out. Are you the only person in the party who regularly makes melee attacks against enemies within 5 feet of you while raging? If you are, then don't take wolf totem.

And you show my point. It fully depends on the team. It might be easy to figure out if Wolf Totem would be good but it doesn't bode well as an option if there is a chance that it can be useless because of what other people pick.


If you're in a party with an archer Hunter, a Light (is there a good single word for domain clerics?), an Evoker, and a Wild Mage, it might still be worth taking Wolf Totem just for Spiritual Weapon. Not blue text. It is literally worth considering how often your cleric is using spiritual weapon.

You kinda contradicted yourself there. "Don't take wolf totem if you are the only person in the team that melees, except if the Cleric casts Spiritual Weapon whenever he wants to". I wouldn't call "To help the Cleric spell sometimes" to be a worthwhile pick of my class, sounds like I am the cleric's cheerleader. And again it fully depends on the Cleric and getting a specific spell, maybe the Cleric abhors violence and doesn't want to cast spells that harm directly, there is more than stats to consider. You might not be kidding but it is still a very bad analysis.


Also, Frenzy normally can be used more than once a day. It depends on the length of your adventure and your downtime, but if you have an adventure that goes Start -> long rest -> End -> downtime, you could use frenzy four times in those two days (with the last use leaving you with 3 levels of exhaustion after the boss fight) and then have plenty of time to recover. If you instead have adventures non-stop, then you might not even use frenzy once each day as you can get exhaustion elsewhere. I sympathize with wanting to level out how often frenzy can be used from group to group.


You only gain exhaustion from not eating or drinking or doing a forced march for over 8 hours by the rules. I doubt most groups should even see exhaustion in their normal play unless the DM puts in effects that afflict exhaustion constantly.

Like I said, if exhaustion is so punishing that one is too much then go X per long rest.

see exhaustion in their normal play unless the DM puts in effects that afflict exhaustion constantly.

Like I said, if exhaustion is so punishing that one is too much then go X per long rest.[/QUOTE]


It's not a meme, the math just shows it adds a pityful 3% compared to some very very very strong features such as wolf/bear totem. The feature suck and that is not just an opinion that's a fact, the exhaustion levels are just taking it from 'ugh this feature is kind of crap no?' to 'wow were they high when they designed this?'.

It has 0 synergy with the combat feats like shieldmaster cause the shove is also a BA, hell it dosent even make sense with two weapon fighting either.
I don't know why you have this weird need to come to its defense when the math clearly shows that the feature is crazy lackluster, and Kryx is not the only one that arrived at that conclusion. You thinking that a 3% damg increase is remotely worth it compared to the totem powers is the opinion, not us saying its a horrible trade.

It is a meme, you want to appeal to math then what is the math on the wolf/bear totem for DPR? Don't crib from Kryx when he has shown to be unable to provide the relevant math. Mind providing your own relevant math.

Like I said if in your opinion it isn't worth it then it is your opinion but I do have to doubt when Kryx says that you can activate GWM 50% of the time when at the absolute most it is 20% at the highest levels. You are confusing opinion with fact and using shaky data to do so, sorry if I don't trust anyone that touts that they figured out the "math" as gospel truth .

[N810]

So the class only sucks for 10 levels. Awesome. And flat bonuses are never a good idea.

NOT +1 to attack
I mean an extra attack.

[JDCGW]

Here's my suggestion:

Frenzy
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you fail, you suffer one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.

Pros over current Frenzy:

Can use extra attack starting on the first turn rather than starting on the second turn.
Bonus action is free, so it now enhances two weapon fighting rather than competing with it.
Since penalty is a CON save, penalty is less likely to happen as character levels up.


Cons:

Saving throw difficult may be too low. DC 15 perhaps?
May make Frenzy barbarian dip too attractive.

[Kryx]

Stolen. Great wording. Replacing my current Frenzy houserule with it.

You mention it doesn't cost a bonus action, but rage still does.

Here are my changes to rage:

You have resistance to all damage except psychic damage.
While raging, every attack is a Reckless Attack.
Rage doesn't cost a bonus action.


Resistance to all as bear totem is really hard to compete with. Instead bear gets the following:
When you rage you gain temporary hit points equivalent to your level + your Constitution modifier.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Stolen. Great wording. Replacing my current Frenzy houserule with it.

You mention it doesn't cost a bonus action, but rage still does.

Here are my changes to rage:

You have resistance to all damage except psychic damage.
While raging, every attack is a Reckless Attack.
Rage doesn't cost a bonus action.


Resistance to all as bear totem is really hard to compete with. Instead bear gets the following:
When you rage you gain temporary hit points equivalent to your level + your Constitution modifier.

That's terrible. You just swap out bear totem for no reason AND make it more powerful, all while screwing over another class choice. In fact, that's worse than terrible because it doesn't even make any sense, it's just change for the sake of change.

[Kryx]

That's terrible. You just swap out bear totem for no reason AND make it more powerful, all while screwing over another class choice. In fact, that's worse than terrible because it doesn't even make any sense, it's just change for the sake of change.
Which part is terrible? You quoted a whole post about several different things..

If you're referring to bear then I literally explained why above: "Resistance to all as bear totem is really hard to compete with." Resistance to all damage is a strong benefit that other archetype features have a problem competing with. So instead I've moved it to the base class and gave Bear Totem it's own benefit. Enhance Ability's benefit for a bear is temporary HP, hence the temporary HP for a Bear Totem Barbarian.

My goal wasn't to nerf Bear Barbarian as I don't think Bear Barbarian needs a nerf. My goal was to increase the competitiveness of archetype options, which I believe I have.

I believe it also makes thematic sense that a barbarian would be resistant to all damage, not just a subset of martial damage which is a holdover from 3.X's damage reduction only applying against weapons.

[Shaofoo]

Which part is terrible? You quoted a whole post about several different things..

If you're referring to bear then I literally explained why above: "Resistance to all as bear totem is really hard to compete with." Resistance to all damage is a strong benefit that other archetype features have a problem competing with. So instead I've moved it to the base class and gave Bear Totem it's own benefit. Enhance Ability's benefit for a bear is temporary HP, hence the temporary HP for a Bear Totem Barbarian.

My goal wasn't to nerf Bear Barbarian as I don't think Bear Barbarian needs a nerf. My goal was to increase the competitiveness of archetype options, which I believe I have.

I believe it also makes thematic sense that a barbarian would be resistant to all damage, not just a subset of martial damage which is a holdover from 3.X's damage reduction only applying against weapons.

I think Bear Totem is overrated. If you will be mostly in melee you'll be taking the physical damage mostly anyway, even if the attacks in question somehow can deal elemental damage they will still deal physical damage. Bear Totem can be rendered useless based on the monsters you fight (and unlike wolf totem you can't predict if it will be worth the pick or not although you might end up facing more enemies that do elemental damage anyway).

Besides your change to Bearbarian just is very boring, at least the other options are more dynamic and can change the flow of battle. A few temp HP isn't really something to get excited about.

Also I am not sure how is it thematic to go against the theme established by the previous game. I thought the point of something being thematic was to give reverence to previous options. It'd be like saying Eldritch Knight is thematic of the 3.x Fighter.

[Kryx]

Also I am not sure how is it thematic to go against the theme established by the previous game.
3.X doesn't have damage resistance at all on rage. It's on the core Barbarian class and comes much later and in much smaller increments, so that's against thematics by your logic!

Please don't reply to me. I have no interest in discussing anything with you based on our past experiences.

[JDCGW]

Stolen. Great wording. Replacing my current Frenzy houserule with it.

You mention it doesn't cost a bonus action, but rage still does.

Here are my changes to rage:

You have resistance to all damage except psychic damage.
While raging, every attack is a Reckless Attack.
Rage doesn't cost a bonus action.


Resistance to all as bear totem is really hard to compete with. Instead bear gets the following:
When you rage you gain temporary hit points equivalent to your level + your Constitution modifier.

Thanks!

Anyway, you don't think forcing Reckless Attack while raging is too steep a penalty?

[dropbear8mybaby]

If you're referring to bear then I literally explained why above: "Resistance to all as bear totem is really hard to compete with." Resistance to all damage is a strong benefit that other archetype features have a problem competing with. So instead I've moved it to the base class and gave Bear Totem it's own benefit.
No, you didn't explain what you were doing at all, you just gave your justifications for doing it. It wasn't clear that you were changing the base class ability.

Giving resistance to all but psychic as a base class ability is just bad, bad design. It's power blow-out. Not even bloat, but rather complete blow-out. It changes power-creep to power-leap.

And then you double-down on that by giving something in addition to it as a replacement for the original feature.

And then you boost rage further by taking out the (rather small) opportunity cost of it requiring a bonus action to initiate.

Why not just turn the barbarian up to 11?

[Shaofoo]

3.X doesn't have damage resistance at all on rage. It's on the core Barbarian class and comes much later and in much smaller increments, so that's against thematics by your logic!

Like I said, it was based on previous parts, it isn't a direct copy. Which is more than damage resistance on everything.


Please don't reply to me. I have no interest in discussing anything with you based on our past experiences.

Sure thing, I will gladly not discuss things with you but I will still offer analysis if I feel that something is off, not to your benefit but for my own.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Sure thing, I will gladly not discuss things with you but I will still offer analysis if I feel that something is off, not to your benefit but for my own.

But then how would he feel a sense of control over the conversation so that his views can dominate?

[Kryx]

But then how would he feel a sense of control over the conversation so that his views can dominate?
I have no interest in dominating conversations. I simply am seeking not to be continuously harassed by people like him and now you.

These type of imposing, pompous, condescending, and ultimately bullying comments compel me to not want to come to this forum. So it's easier to just block the offending party and move on.

Discussion is not argumentation and rudeness like you and others readily push. Another one on the block list...

[Shaofoo]

Well hopefully now we can have some fresh views on this topic or hopefully it can die soon.

[SillyPopeNachos]

Here was my change to the Berserker, replacing Frenzy: Berserker Soul - while raging, and wearing no armor or shields, on a confirmed hit you may spend a hit die to add it to your attack as a damage die of the given weapon's damage type.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I have no interest in dominating conversations. I simply am seeking not to be continuously harassed by people like him and now you.

These type of imposing, pompous, condescending, and ultimately bullying comments compel me to not want to come to this forum. So it's easier to just block the offending party and move on.

Discussion is not argumentation and rudeness like you and others readily push. Another one on the block list...
You just described yourself.