PF - Shouod Random Cost Less? - A Clockwork Query

[unseenmage]

Thought I remembered reading somewhere that clockwork creatures could be found that transform into another type of clockwork altogether after an undetermined amount of time.

It was listed as DM advice IIRC and had no rules for creating such clockworks. Which, of course, made me want to make some up.

Pricing is easy really, same as crafting two magic items in one.
What got me thinking was what if the clockwork turned into a truly random second form after being wound a truly random number of times?
Would this reduce its pricing?

For ease lets assume this theoretical evolving clockwork can only turn into something up to its own CR or CR+1.
This way we're paying for a CR+1 possibility and it makes the gamble worth it but not so much so that no other kind of clockwork should exist. The chance that it could actually get weaker says to me that these things should cost less.

How would the Playground word the Alternate Form SQ for these so called Evolving Clockworks?

[Barstro]

For me, the answer depends on just how random "random" is.

If the form can be changed all the time and the player can just stop when he has what he wants, then I'd say "no".
If the form can only change very infrequently, then "perhaps". I'd go all the way to "yes" if any CR+1 came with a drawback as well.

[unseenmage]

For me, the answer depends on just how random "random" is.

If the form can be changed all the time and the player can just stop when he has what he wants, then I'd say "no".
If the form can only change very infrequently, then "perhaps". I'd go all the way to "yes" if any CR+1 came with a drawback as well.

The form can only be changed once. When is predetermined at creation and is also randomized.
Perhaps the clockwork changes after a random number of windings.

[Jack_Simth]

Devil's in the details...

Suppose that I've got a "Random Clockwork Creature" that operates on the following rules:
Must be wound once a day, which takes 1 round. If not wound, it won't be able to do anything that day.
When wound, there's a 1 in 20 chance that it will change.
When it changes, you roll a die, and consult a list (containing some number of forms, all of which are still Random Clockwork Creatures and the same rules apply for winding them). The creature turns into that form.

Let's look at two scenarios:
1) It can only be wound once a day.
- If the forms have several different categories of useful, you can never be quite sure what to expect. Should likely be priced based on the average of the list (weighted, if the creatures have different probabilities).

2) You can wind it as often as you like.
- Then on average, I get the exact creature I want after 20*number of creatures on list windings, and then I keep it for the next day. Assuming 20 creatures, that's 400 rounds = 40 minutes, not a big deal outside of combat. Should likely be priced based on the best creature on the list plus the worst creature on the list.


The form can only be changed once. When is predetermined at creation and is also randomized.
Perhaps the clockwork changes after a random number of windings.
Then the creature really should be priced based on it's final form. If that's unknowable, but the final form is "close" to the initial form, then it doesn't really much impact the practical use, one way or the other.

[icefractal]

Personally, I'd say priced based on the average cost of the possible final forms, with a 33% discount for being random which one you get. No extra cost for the initial form at all, unless it's more powerful than the average final form, in which case add +X/50, where X is the difference in price (basically considering it as a one-shot item).

So for example, if we had a Clockwork Steed that would eventually turn into either a Clockwork Soldier, Mage, or Servant (equal chance of each), then:

Soldier = 37K, Mage = 43K, Servant = 7.5K
Average = ~29.2K
Discount for Random => 19.5K

The discount is considerable, but so is the disadvantage of being random. If you wanted a front-line type to shore up your defense, then rolling the Mage or Servant result would be a lot less useful to you.

If all the possible forms fulfill the same role, then a lesser discount could be appropriate. Although I wouldn't go below 10%.