Optimizing a martial rogue

[Soranar]

As the title says I'm trying to optimize a martial rogue (ACF that trades sneak attack for fighter feats)

So far this is what I came up with

Race: Changeling
Alignment: any for now
Templates: none for now

Substitution levels

Changeling rogue (bonus to knowledge checks, 50% crit immunity and take 10 on social skills)

STATS no special order for now, WIS is definitely a dump stat

Out of combat, this character is pretty useful. His social skills are quite high (due to take 10 + high skill ranks)

I am likely to take the education feat + knowledge devotion and max out all the creature identifying knowledge skills (nature, the planes, religion, dungeoneering, local, arcana)

So , basically, so far I have a know it all with a scaling bonus to hit and damage with any weapon.

Since I don't have a built in way to pounce nor do I have the greatest hit points, I'm thinking of going 2 routes.

Either to build an AoO build with a spiked chain (I have too many feats to know what to do with already so why not)
or
Some kind of archery build (I might even try dual wielding hand crossbows if I can find a way to reload them)

So, any suggestions? Maybe a viable combat strategy I haven't though of?

[Troacctid]

It's going to depend on what prestige class you want to enter. There's not much reason to stick to rogue.

[Telonius]

If you have a Changeling that's going to be in melee most of the time, Warshaper is the usual go-to.

[Venger]

If you have a Changeling that's going to be in melee most of the time, Warshaper is the usual go-to.

Absolutely right. But remember if you're rolling a changeling who is a rogue, take the changeling rogue substitution levels. it's not even mutually exclusive with martial rogue.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I love Martial Rogue, I use it more than actual Rogue. That said, I seldom use it for that long. 4 levels is a pretty ideal drop off point. Gets you Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Penetrating Strike (SA is easy to get from other sources, like Assassin's Stance), and three bonus feats. If a Changeling, the 1st level racial sub. is a must.

Builds I've done:

- Goliath Martial Wilderness Rogue / Wolf Totem Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian (also was allowed to combine Mountain Rage w/ Whirling Frenzy). Used Knockback and Shock Trooper, plus tripping feats to treat foes like bowling pins or juggle them in the air (DM was willing to let me bull rush them up w/ knockback). Started out with just 2 barbarian levels, but by the end I was Roge 6 / Barb 4 and building towards an 8/8 split. There's some interesting substitution levels for the two classes for both Goliath and "Lunar" (dragon mag #340), plus alt. class features from dragon mag like Fearsome Gaze and Unshakable to make the two classes worthwhile for longer. I also picked up Leap Attack and Cometary Collision, plus Steadfast Boots, all of which combo'd with the other feats and pounce to make him the bane of any big bruiser or charger.
EDIT: He used a heavy flail, for what it's worth. I wanted to try something different and not just max out reach, and the heavy flail is a very underrated weapon w/ a lot of variety. He didn't have imp. disarm, but thanks to reach from mountain rage he could often disarm people w/ the flail after tripping them with it.

- Changeling Martial Rogue 4 / Factotum 3 / Warshaper 3 (as far as I got; would've probably done WS 4 and maybe back to factotum or rogue after, I don't know). This build used the Brains Over Brawn of Factotum and +4 Str and morphic reach of Warshaper to be a great tripping lockdown build. Also picked up Imperious Command, Intimidating Strike (in retrospect, fearsome armor would've been better and less costly), and never outnumbered skill trick to cower a small area.

- Whisper Gnome Martial Rogue 4 / Swordsage X. I've done this class combo a lot, I think it's the simplest and best use of martial rogue, this is just one example. Put simply...Swordsage is badly feat-starved. Martial Rogue fixes this while also improving skill options a bit, and opening up Penetrating Strike for your Assassin's Stance. All you need is 1d6 SA to get through and you can party w/ Staggering Strike, which is the real goal. Grabbed Exotic Prof. (spiked chain), Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, Desert Wind Dodge + Titan Fighting (being small, that meant any round she moved 10+ feet, she got +4 AC vs. nearly any foe), Adaptive Style.... Typical stuff. Went with a bit of a giant-slaying theme with Soaring Raptor Strike and gloves of giantfelling.

[jdizzlean]

If you have a Changeling that's going to be in melee most of the time, Warshaper is the usual go-to.


warshaper is amazing, i'm trying to figure out how to apply that to MoMF/druid right now.

[Nifft]

Warshaper is great, yeah... assuming you can qualify. There's some disagreement about whether Changelings qualify without some additional way to shapeshift. Wildshape Ranger is a very smooth entry -- Martial Rogue needs DM approval.

Another fun PrC is Chameleon. Martial Rogue 4 / _____ 1 / Chameleon 10 is a great build for all sorts of things. You can then (try to) cap it with 5 levels of Warshaper.

[Fizban]

Why oh why would you dual wield hand crossbows and waste perfectly good damage bonuses on an inferior weapon that requires even more feats to wield than a bow? See if you can get yourself to count as a fighter for prerequisites on account of stealing their bonus feats, then take weapon spec/mastery line with a bow and just keep stacking bonuses. You don't even need Greater Manyshot, since your flat damage works on each arrow from normal Manyshot, which in turn gives you mobility since you only lose one attack (the Rapid Shot attack) on rounds you have to move.

Yeah, weapon focus is heresy, uh huh, except for the same number of feats it takes to try to make hand crossbows work you could just deal even more damage with a normal bow.

[daremetoidareyo]

Drow of the underdark has hand crossbow focus. That is good for double wielding.

[Soranar]

So, as a thought experiment, I'll compare 2 handcrossbows to a bow

Hand crossbow build

1 Education bonus feat: point blank shot
2 bonus feat: hand crossbow focus
3 Knowledge devotion
4 bonus feat: Crossbow Sniper
6 Rapid shot bonus feat: TWF
8 Improved TWF

On how to get reloads

the magic item spare hand costs 12k and uses a waist slot, it lets you hold a weapon and transfer it to your actual hands as a free action

So, to get your reloads, you transfer 1 crossbow to it, reload both with your now freed hand, transfer the crossbow back to shoot. Repeat as needed.

By level 8, a dual hand crossbow build does

1d4+ 3 damage (assuming 22 DEX, 2 increases + a minor magic item) + knowledge devotion (say +2 at this point) + whatever enchant you can afford (which won't be much due to the spare hand)

You get 2 Main attacks, 2 off hand attacks , 1 bonus attack from rapid shot

so about 7.5 damage per hit, 5 attacks

you get +6 to hit from DEX, another +3 from knowledge devotion and weapon focus so +9

a level 8 archer would have

education + knowledge devotion
point blank shot + rapid shot
other feats not spent on fighting I guess

1d8+5 (20 STR seems reasonable) + 2 (knowledge devotion) = 11.5 damage per hit, 3 attacks with rapid shot

you can't afford hank's energy bow yet but it's safe to assume you get at least another + 3.5 damage from some form of enchant

so an average of 14 damage per hit , 3 times

obviously DR makes the bow WAY better

Now at higher levels

If you dip fighter
with the sneak attack fighter ACF
and the Drow fighter ACF
+ Craven
+ Deadeye
+ haste
+ martial study/martial stance for assassin's stance
your DEX caps at 34 if you started at 18 (+5 from level increases, + 5 from tomes, + 6 from magic item)

vs crit immune creatures

1d4 damage + 6 (half your DEX bonus) + 5 (knowledge devotion maxed out)+ 5 (collision) + 5 (weapon enchant or friendly spell)

23.5 damage per hit on average

3 attacks main hand, 3 attacks off hand, 1 from rapid shot, 2 more from haste so 9 attacks
times 2 due to splitting = 18 attacks at about 23.5 damage

DR is still a potential issue but with so many attacks you can still kill something high level each round

vs non crit immune creatures

+20 craven
+3d6 from sneak attack (fighter dip + assassin's stance)
+twice your DEX (fighter dip + deadeye) 24

so about 54.5 damage more... 78 damage per hit x 18

now the bow

vs crit immune

2d6 (hank's energy bow instead of collision) + 12 (34 STR) + 5 (knowledge devotion)+5 weapon enchant or friendly spell

so about 29 damage,

you get 3 attacks from BAB + 1 from rapid shot + 1 from haste x2 from splitting

so 10 attacks at 29
you could try to use power shot to compensate for the lack of attacks but the more BAB you sacrifice for damage, the less hits you should get

so, vs crit immune creatures with high DR, a bow might come out on top or roughly equal (though it requires way less feats)

vs non crit immune creatures it's not even a debate, the bonus damage from Craven, deadeye, drow fighter and sneak attack is just way too good

finally a bow combo comes on earlier and works faster

[Troacctid]

the magic item spare hand costs 12k and uses a waist slot, it lets you hold a weapon and transfer it to your actual hands as a free action
That's a 13th level item. Buying it at level 8 would cost you almost half your WBL. That's not minor at all.

[Fizban]

I specifically gave the suggestion of specialization/weapon mastery, which you ignored, followed by combining every bit of sneak attack optimization and assuming you always get sneak attack, and giving the sneak attack build some 30k in designated magic items. Duh it's not even close when you refuse to actually optimize the build that's not your favorite. If you've already decided dual crossbows is the best thing ever don't solicit suggestions.

[bean illus]

See if you can get yourself to count as a fighter for prerequisites on account of stealing their bonus feats, then take weapon spec/mastery line with a bow and just keep stacking bonuses. You don't even need Greater Manyshot, since your flat damage works on each arrow from normal Manyshot, which in turn gives you mobility since you only lose one attack (the Rapid Shot attack) on rounds you have to move.


Or just break down and take two levels of fighter, and have better saves and one more feat for the cost of 1d6 and uncanny dodge (which are both situational).
This of course brings weapon specialization/focus on line faster (which is every attack you make with your primary weapon).

Unfortunaltely GWS and GWF don't come on line till 8th and 12th.

Of course Martial Rogue combines well with Barbarian also.

And i can't resist mentioning the 6 level stub: MR2/F2/Monk (passive way)2, which give 10!! FEATS in 6 levels.
It gets two inherent tripping feats, +4 BAB, +5 +5 +5 saves, and 27 hp (avg 4.5). Fourteen levels of XX (chameleon for 6th level touch attacks on your self buffing tripper that makes their own magic items, and maybe some ToB).

[Soranar]

Counting as a fighter for fighter only feats is a no go (though I would have allowed it personally but my DM is a stickler with my characters since they tend to get out of hand)

The appeal of rogue was mostly the skillpoints, the changeling sub and the feats combo but knowledge devotion caps off at +5 and taking skill mastery to take 10 in all 6 devotion knowledge is overkill.

Due to how little the crossbow build accomplishes, I'm leaning more towards the spiked chain build now. From personal experience, tripping is situational (much like sneak attack) but mage slayer definitely isn't. With that in mind.

Assumes 2 flaws

1 aberration blood, education, inhuman reach bonus feat: combat reflexes
2 exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)
3 willing deformity (tall)
4 bonus feat : martial study
6 knowledge devotion bonus feat: mage slayer
8 blind fight, bonus feato pierce magical concealment

You get 15 ft reach (+5 from inhuman reach, another +5 from deformity tall)
times 2 due to a reach weapon, your reach is now 30 ft. With that much reach there's no real need to pounce, a 5 ft step is usually enough. Readying an action is also always an option.

Now at this point I'm considering dipping swordsage to get shadow blade and add DEX to damage on top of 1.5 STR

Sudden leap + skill mastery is not a bad idea for a 10 ft move minimum.

The exotic weapon master is also a thought

I'm going to have to take some prestige class out since staying rogue further gives no real incentive except maybe defensive roll amd skill mastery

[Fizban]

Unfortunaltely GWS and GWF don't come on line till 8th and 12th.
Most people seem to prefer the idea of bailing out once you get X Weapon Mastery (at BAB 8+, so later for a feat rogue), and I can see the desire to get out and get some other feats.

Counting as a fighter for fighter only feats is a no go (though I would have allowed it personally but my DM is a stickler with my characters since they tend to get out of hand)
Well that's a shame, guess you are stuck with rage or craven dipping or something since you can't have the Fighter bonus feat's actual answer to scaling damage :smallsigh: Your DM really vetoed weapon specialization line because he's afraid you'll get "out of hand?"

Sudden leap + skill mastery is not a bad idea for a 10 ft move minimum.
Also good because technically your distance moved is random, it makes you roll distance instead of target a square, so fixing that check means you know where you'll land. If you can't have weapon spec and aren't going sneak attack that leaves martial adept.

I'm going to have to take some prestige class out since staying rogue further gives no real incentive except maybe defensive roll amd skill mastery
Well if you wanted rogue for the skills, note that even most rogue PrCs tend to drop some skill points. Keeping those up and hitting skill mastery isn't a bad goal.

[Troacctid]

You can get skill mastery a little more efficiently from Exemplar (CAd). It comes at 1st level, so you can go into your prestige class, then just dip Exemplar, rather than having to take the full 10 levels of rogue. It does require Skill Focus, so it synergizes well with e.g. a dip into Marshal (always a decent choice if you have good Cha), or just visit one of the various magical locations like Frog God's Fane that can give you Skill Focus as a bonus feat.

[Macabaret]

I do have something of a love affair with Martial Rogue. Mainly because of that tasty-tasty 10th level Halfling substitution level.
Wilderness Martial Rogue. 10th level halfling substitution level. 13th and 16th levels get you the ranger's HiPS and Camouflage. UMD your way through a wand of Acorn of Far Travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) and you can dance like no one's watching. (Because no one is!)

Full attack array with ranged weapons, staying hidden all the while. Toss in Woodland Archer to move, too.

And, the good news is, with Racial Emulation, you can still do it as a Changeling and grab the changeling rogue sub levels, if you'd like.