The Mess Mage

[Cinominn]

A little while back my play group had discussed how many prestige classes its possible to have on a character, and with the help of the forums here I found out there is no limit.

We then decided to play around with that idea some and figure out whats the most prestige classes you would want on a character. Maybe a rogue trying to go ultimate skill monkey, or a Fighter that specializes in literally everything.

Then we came up with a wizard.... with full casting. (also I'm a little new to some of the tricks for adding things into a message board so bear with me please}

So he has to be a male drow for this to work, I understand the stigma against using pathfinder but for those of you that do it also has to be a 3.5 drow unless you can convince your dm to swap your ability score bonus to Int, you also need to take 3 flaws for earth sense, Heighten spell, and earth spell giving you a high enough caster level to get the prerequisites for the prestige classes and I am aware there are a lot of discussions about whether or not it will work but this is not about that so please have those discussions elsewhere. Also my group has a problem with using Dragon magazine because many of the things in it are unbalanced so this was made without their use.

1st: Wizard Specialist (evocation)
2nd: Drow Paragon (I know its not technically a prestige but its all i could find that you can get second level that give casting progression)
3rd: Master Specialist
4th: Ruathar
5th: Shadow Adept
6th: Alienist
7th: Deep Diviner
8th: Arcane Devotee
9th: Earth Dreamer
10th: Divine Oracle
11th: Fatespinner
12th: Elemental Savant
13th: Geometer
14th: Incantatrix
15th: Wild Mage
16th: Mind Bender
17th: Loremaster
18th: Mage of the arcane order
19th: Wayfarer Guide
20th: Shaper of Form

Flaw for Earth sense
Flaw for Heighten spell
Flaw for Earth spell
1st: Spell Focus (Divination)
Bonus for Coop Spell
3rd: Shadow Weave Magic
Bonus for Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
5th: Augment Summoning
Bonus for Tenacious, Pernicious, and Insidious Magic
7th:Enlarge spell
9th:Skill Focus (knowledge Religion)
11th:Energy Substitution
13th:Iron Will
15th:Magical Aptitude
17th:Great Fortitude
19th:Spell Focus (Transmutation)
and a spare bonus feat for something

I'm sure it isn't perfect and could be done better but it's what I have so far.

What do you think?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think it's pretty cool that you still have a spare feat, after all that. Nice work :smallbiggrin:.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Really interesting build indeed. Do you need to be Drow to take Drow Paragon? doesn't Drow have a level adjustment? Not that the build isn't workable if so just curious.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Really interesting build indeed. Do you need to be Drow to take Drow Paragon? doesn't Drow have a level adjustment? Not that the build isn't workable if so just curious.

You could be a Half-Drow or a Lesser Drow, I believe neither have an LA.

Also, nice one, OP. Best part is, it's a reasonably decent build, if only because you don't lose any caster levels.

[Zanos]

How are you getting cooperative spell as a bonus feat at level 1? Also, technically, UA doesn't allow more than 2 flaws.

[Anthrowhale]

Anima Mage can be taken at second level.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Earth Spell trick is very shaky. Heighten Spell's benefits apply to "All effects dependent on spell level". A prerequisite is a quality of the feat/class/etc, not an effect. The effects of a feat/class/etc are the things the feat/class/etc provides.

[Zanos]

The Earth Spell trick is very shaky. Heighten Spell's benefits apply to "All effects dependent on spell level". A prerequisite is a quality of the feat/class/etc, not an effect. The effects of a feat/class/etc are the things the feat/class/etc provides.
The previous sentence says that heighten spell actually increases the spells effective level, even if you read the word "effects" in such a restrictive way. Which I personally I think is a bit ridiculous. Effect was not redefined to have a more constrained meaning in 3.5.

[Extra Anchovies]

The previous sentence says that heighten spell actually increases the spells effective level

Yeah. And the sentence I quoted part of is explaining what a spell's "effective level" is. There's no universally valid definition of "effective spell level" that I know of in any book, let alone in one of the three primary-source books.


even if you read the word "effects" in such a restrictive way. Which I personally I think is a bit ridiculous. Effect was not redefined to have a more constrained meaning in 3.5.

Yeah. Google says it's "a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause", and I think that's a pretty non-contentious definition. The effects of X are whatever X does. Static descriptive things like the school or level of a spell aren't effects, they're qualities. Determining whether you can cast Xth-level spells is simple - if you can cast a spell which says [your spellcasting class] X below the spell's name in its printed description, then you can cast spells of Xth level. The exception is when a specific ability says otherwise (e.g. gnome illusionist sub levels). That is, "able to cast Xth-level spells" checks the qualities of the spells you can cast, not the effects.

[Zanos]

That seems like an extremely tortured reading of both the rules of the game and the English language to support that your opinion is RAW.


Yeah. And the sentence I quoted part of is explaining what a spell's "effective level" is. There's no universally valid definition of "effective spell level" that I know of in any book, let alone in one of the three primary-source books.
The two sentences we are discussing are non-contradictory and can coexist.



Yeah. Google says it's "a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause", and I think that's a pretty non-contentious definition. The effects of X are whatever X does. Static descriptive things like the school or level of a spell aren't effects, they're qualities.


"All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability)"

Both of the things given as an example of effects seem more like what you're defining as qualities. Ability to penetrate a lesser globe is specifically not an effect under the definition you're putting forth, since ability by definition is potential, rather than an effect itself.

[Extra Anchovies]

That seems like an extremely tortured reading of both the rules of the game and the English language to support that your opinion is RAW.

I happen to feel the same way about yours, so hopefully we can both get something interesting out of this.


The two sentences we are discussing are non-contradictory and can coexist.

I read the second sentence as clarifying and explaining the first, and the third sentence as clarifying and explaining the second. That's generally how feats, spells, and class features are written.


Both of the things given as an example of effects seem more like what you're defining as qualities. Ability to penetrate a lesser globe is specifically not an effect under the definition you're putting forth, since ability by definition is potential, rather than an effect itself.

That definition's not perfect or complete, I agree. Too tired to come up with a better one, and there's not much reason to. It's probably best to drop the "what is an effect" tangent, because without a specific rules definition of "effect" it's pointless semantics. Also the more I look into it the more it seems like you're right about Heighten Spell.

Let's take a look at Earth Spell, though.


As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on. You cannot gain the benefit of this feat when casting a spell with the air, fire, or water descriptor.

A spell being "treated as" two levels higher than it normally is must be different from a spell having an effective level two levels higher than its normal level. Otherwise, the extra +1 from Earth Spell runs into the last sentence of Heighten Spell ("The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level"); a 1st-level spell, heightened to effective level 2nd, and increased by one more to 3rd by Earth Spell, is as difficult to prepare and cast as a 3rd-level spell, which means it needs a 3rd-level spell slot. You are then casting a spell with a spell slot two levels higher than its normal level, which means Earth Spell increases that to three levels higher, and thus need a 4th-level spell slot. The loop continues to 9 (or infinity, maybe, but that's irrelevant), which is silly. So "treated as" X levels higher is different from "effective level" X higher than normal.

To show what that does, a 1st-level spell that's Heightened and cast from a 2nd-level spell slot by a character with Earth Spell has a normal level of 1st, an effective level of 2nd, and when cast it is treated as a spell of 3rd level. So we have spells that are 2nd-level spells, and once they have been cast they are treated as 3rd-level spells, but until they are cast they remain 2nd-level spells. Whether that counts as "able to cast 3rd-level spells" is... eh. Depends on when you apply the +1 from Earth Spell, I guess - if it's applied during the casting time, then it counts, but if it's applied after the casting time concludes (i.e. at the same moment that the spell starts to do stuff), then it doesn't count. Which one is correct is sorta unclear, because Earth Spell can't have the exact same effects as Heighten Spell, but besides how difficult the spell is to prepare and cast, there's nothing about the ways in which the spells are treated as one level higher. Since we're in an exception-based rules system, I guess that means it works?

[Cinominn]

How are you getting cooperative spell as a bonus feat at level 1? Also, technically, UA doesn't allow more than 2 flaws.

Wizard gets a bonus feat at first level and i already have 3 metamagics unless you need to have them before you can take it, my group went with the fact that your flaws are things your character had before he gained levels so it would count but by RAW I could see it not working, as such there is an open feat slot to make up for it

As far as the flaws I didn't know that, my group runs 3 flaws


Anima Mage can be taken at second level.

That would involve having vestiges, and casting, which unless your using either precocious apprentice or getting vestiges from feats isnt possible for second level or making this build more feat starved than it already is.

Also, that's why I put in the disclaimer about earth spell being an issue.... I was hoping it wasn't going to consume this thread... on another note anyone have any ideas to improve this character?

[Calthropstu]

Augment summoning requires spell focus conjuration, which I don't see on your list.

[Zaydos]

As a Specialist Evoker you don't qualify for Master Specialist with the Spell Focus (Divination) feat. Did you mean to be a specialist diviner? Is being an Evoker required for another PrC somewhere?

[Zanos]

Wizard gets a bonus feat at first level
They get scribe scroll, not a choice. Unless I'm missing something.

[Mordaedil]

You don't qualify for Master Specialist at that level. Requires second level spells which you've only attained at third level. Same reason you can't qualify take certain classes until 6th level because they require 8 ranks or 3rd level spells.

[Calthropstu]

You don't qualify for Master Specialist at that level. Requires second level spells which you've only attained at third level. Same reason you can't qualify take certain classes until 6th level because they require 8 ranks or 3rd level spells.
Yeah, he's ignoring a bunch of requirements here. This build flagrantly ignores rules.

[Mordaedil]

Anima Mage can be taken at second level.

No, it can't. After third level at earliest.

[Anthrowhale]

No, it can't. After third level at earliest.

I'm not sure which prereq you doubt. Is it "Ability to bind a 2nd-level vestige"? This can be provided with 2 feats at level 1: "Bind Vestige" and "Improved Bind Vestige".

[Kaje]

Where are you getting the feats to bind the vestiges and cast 2nd level spells?

[Cinominn]

Augment summoning requires spell focus conjuration, which I don't see on your list.

Oops...


As a Specialist Evoker you don't qualify for Master Specialist with the Spell Focus (Divination) feat. Did you mean to be a specialist diviner? Is being an Evoker required for another PrC somewhere?

I didn't realize the spell focus had to be the same school as your specialization. And I dont think the specialization needs to be evocation so it can be changed... id have to check


They get scribe scroll, not a choice. Unless I'm missing something.

Crud.... miss read it.... welp gotta figure that out.


Yeah, he's ignoring a bunch of requirements here. This build flagrantly ignores rules.

The only rules I'm flagrantly ignoring by RAW is getting 3 flaws and how earth spell works other than that I am legitimately trying to build within the rules, sometimes people make mistakes yo.

I will when I have time later today or tomorrow try and make changes for it to work better.

[Inevitability]

Where are you getting the feats to bind the vestiges and cast 2nd level spells?

Bind Vestige + Improved Bind Vestige can be taken by a flaw-less human. A wizard who makes a faustian pact can get a 2nd-level spell slot as well as a feat (spent on Apprentice (soldier)), which satisfies the 'able to cast 2nd-level spells' restriction. Skill point reshuffling then lets you put 4 ranks in intimidate.

[Anthrowhale]

Bind Vestige + Improved Bind Vestige can be taken by a flaw-less human. A wizard who makes a faustian pact can get a 2nd-level spell slot as well as a feat (spent on Apprentice (soldier)), which satisfies the 'able to cast 2nd-level spells' restriction. Skill point reshuffling then lets you put 4 ranks in intimidate.

Thanks Dire_Stirge.

You are doing this with no flaws, while the OP uses 3. There is also a variant wizard (Filidh) in Dragon 324 which has intimidate as a class skill eliminating the need for Apprentice(Soldier).

[Endarire]

@OP: I prefer Heighten Spell + Metamagic School Focus to qualify for things instead of Earth Spell. It's one less feat, and, from my understanding, lets you apply Metamagic School Focus thrice to one spell. (You use all 3 daily uses on one spell.)