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Sicarius Victis
2016-10-13, 08:02 PM
For once, I'm NOT making a homebrew that works in a completely different way than everything else in the game. I hope.

Well, besides the level of specialization this has. 5e isn't really a system for specialization.

Presenting...

Oath of the Pyre
The Oath of the Pyre is ancient and primordial, preceding all but the oldest of civilizations. Paladins who take the oath dedicate themselves to destroying corruption and wickedness, to lighting up the darkness. Practitioners of this oath are often known as ashen knights or ember knights. These paladins invoke the destructive power of fire to purge their foes, while also embracing its power to bring and keep life.

Tenets of the Pyre
The tenets of the Oath of the Pyre have gone unwritten for as long as the Oath has been taken, but all those who have taken the Oath know its principles as surely as their own name.
Destruction. Through the strength of the fire, the corrupted shall be purged.
Purity. Through the will of the fire, the innocent shall be purified.
Tenacity. Through the endurance of the fire, its warriors shall not falter.
Enlightenment. Through the glory of the fire, the darkest parts of the world shall be brought to light.

Oath Spells
You gain oath spells at the paladin levels listed.
3rd: absorb elements, cure wounds
5th: prayer of healing, branding smite
9th: beacon of hope, elemental weapon
13th: fire shield, elemental bane
17th: mass cure wounds, immolation

Channel Divinity
When you take this oath at 3rd level, you gain the following two Channel Divinity options.
Purge. As an action, you inflict one opponent within 30 feet with a holy fire that burns their soul. The target must attempt a Wisdom saving throw, taking fire damage equal to 2d6+your Charisma modifier on a failed save. The target gains no benefit from resistance to fire damage against this. In addition, on a failed save this effect continues for up to 1 minute. On each of your turns after this, you may use your bonus action to deal fire damage equal to 1d6+your Charisma modifier to the target. This effect ends after 1 minute, or if you stop using your bonus actions to deal damage to the target. If a creature dies while under this effect, their body disintegrates into ashes, leaving their equipment unharmed.
Cleanse. As an action, you attempt to cleanse one creature within 30 feet of corruptive magic. You may end the charmed condition on the target of this ability. In addition, you may attempt to end any condition on the target that cannot function on a creature immune to the charmed condition. The target may attempt an immediate saving throw against the effect, using the same save DC as it did for its first save against that effect. If the save is successful, the effect is ended.

Cleansing Flame
Beginning at 7th level, you attain a measure of control over your flame. Whenever you deal fire damage through a paladin spell or class feature, that damage bypasses resistance to fire damage. Whenever you would deal radiant damage with a paladin spell, you may choose to change the damage type to fire. When you use Divine Smite, you may also choose to deal fire damage instead of radiant. When you use this effect, you deal extra damage to aberrations and undead instead of fiends and undead.
In addition, you gain the cantrips control flames, create bonfire, and produce flame. Charisma is your spellcasting ability modifier for these, and they are treated as paladin spells for you.

WIP: 15th-level feature pending.

Form of the Pyre
At 20th level, as an action, you may assume the Form of the Pyre. For one minute, you gain the following benefits:
• You shed bright light in a 30-foot radius, and you shed dim light 30 feet beyond that.
• Whenever a creature within the area of bright light deals damage to a nonhostile, living creature that you can see, the attacking creature takes fire damage.
• You gain immunity to fire damage.
Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest before you can use is again.


"Chilled fingers each rely on a spark,
To ignite the pyre, summon fire from dark.
Stoke the ash for embers
'Fore they pry them apart,
Smoke rises, tiger of mind and lion of heart."

clash
2016-10-14, 09:21 AM
I recommend this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/26/53/0f/26530f6f9939c9fcb3e4ea0195f72835.jpg

For your level 20 feature.

But no seriously, some types of flames that surrond you and immunity to fire damage are a given for that.

JeenLeen
2016-10-14, 09:32 AM
I love the idea of paladins getting cantrips, but no comment on whether or not it's a good idea balance-wise since they (and rangers) can't otherwise get cantrips without multiclassing/feats.

Hellish Rebuke, although fitting effect-wise, seems off fluff-wise since it is the flames of hell. The very fact that this spell is given to them would make them seem questionable. Although less useful (or, well, not a reaction), perhaps one of the level 1 fire spells, or even Chromatic Orb limited to fire.

If you got 2+ uses of Channel Divinity between rests, would Purefire enhance the fire damage from Firebrand? As written, I think the answer is yes, and i think that's fine, but I wanted to make sure that was your intent.

---
All in all, cool concept, and it seems as fitting as Oath of the Ancients for a an order of paladins devoted to righteousness and destroying evil. I see these being on the ruthless end like how Vengeance is, but that's obviously okay in 5e since Vengeance Paladins exist.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-14, 11:58 AM
For the 20th-level feature, I'm planning something based off of Investiture of Flame. Considering the effects of Holy Nimbus and Elder Champion, I figure it can get some pretty powerful effects there.

The cantrips really aren't all that useful for the character. Produce Flame allows for some minor ranged damage, but still with a short range of effect. Create Bonfire allows for some battlefield control, but you've probably got better things to concentrate on. Control Flames is just fun. The three cantrips are really more there for flavour than anything else. Well, flavour and a way to do at-will fire damage.

Not sure about Hellish Rebuke either, to be honest. The oath spell list still needs some work.

With 2 uses of Channel Divinity, Purefire would indeed enhance Firebrand. That is intended.

And honestly, I'm rather proud of the flavour for this. With the "purging corruption" and stuff, it's mostly intended to fight undead, aberrations, and similar things that shouldn't exist. Though it will still always fight evil things in general. It's ruthless like Vengeance, but the characters are also intended to embrace fire's life-giving aspects as well, so they have good parts and bad parts. This subclass actually has a few sources of inspiration. It's mostly intended to be based off of a character I use sometimes in games, who fights with flaming weapons and some AoE attacks for battlefield control. I've tried a few options, such as EK and a homebrew thing that was somewhere between a Swordsage and a Swordmage, but neither of them really fit the concept. So, I decided to just make my own thing. And I figured that a paladin subclass would fit best for the concept. So far, that seems to be true. The subclass is also somewhat inspired by the song referenced in the first comment. A rap by a Youtuber named Dan Bull written as an advertisement for Dark Souls 3. Quite fun, I'd suggest listening to it.

Also, I liked the idea of someone who could kill fire elementals and Evil Elemental Fire cultists with their own element, and paladin felt right for that kind of thing.

Antioch
2016-10-14, 03:02 PM
I'm uncertain whether self-harm per the fire effects to fuel greater feats of combat and magic is in line with the flavor of this class, but it does draw upon a facet of the Paladin that I find makes the most compelling characters of the class. Willing self-sacrifice to achieve greater heights, no care for personal consequences and all the care for how their efforts can affect the world for the better.


My candle burns at both ends;

It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—

It gives a lovely light!

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-14, 11:06 PM
Updated OP with modified Oath spell list, Purefire slightly changed, and added 15th-level and 20th-leve abilities.

PapaQuackers
2016-10-19, 02:19 PM
Oath Spells:
I'm going to come out and say it flat out, this Paladin archetype is far superior in the spells he's getting from his oath. Nearly all of them are AoE damage spells, but that is not necessarily a bad thing as this archetypes offers very little utility.

Firebrand: This is exactly the same as sacred weapon except it does fire damage, which obviously means is balanced fine, except for the fact that you gain bypass resistance and immunity entirely using this archetype which does make it a bit stronger. The problem is in that it's a carbon copy, so it's kind of boring even if it is thematic. Perhaps something about catching mundane items ablaze or something instead of just producing light.

Pure Fire: 2/3 Paladin channel divinities are turn X and the other gives advantage on attacks. This archetype is heavily fire based so this is necessary but it's not really in line with the other archetypes.

Cleansing Flame: Okay, so 9/10 times you've invalidated any use that I may have for Pure Fire. I get that you can now use it to reduce immunity but mostly this feature amounts to freeing up my bonus action and changing all my damage to fire damage. Since I can ignore resistance/immunity (mostly) I am definitely doing WAY more damage than the other Paladin archetypes.

Also the 2/3 Paladin 7th level abilities are Aura of X with the exception once again being the Relentless Avenger who gets to move when he makes opportunity attacks.

This ability it just tacking more things on to what you already have so it's pretty out of line in that respect.


Purging Flame: Resistance to Fire /and/ Cold seems like a bit much. Maybe just make it resistance to fire and beef up the latter half of the ability since it's a tad lack luster. Aura of courage already makes you and the people around you immune to fear and aura of protection is giving them bonuses on their saves. Make me feel more like the fire is purging me of things that other archetypes can't already take care of.


Capstone: Probably fine, but Charisma to damage and Immunity to fire damage stick out as perhaps being a tad much since this archetype already does so much damage. You're also making them take damage just for standing near you.

Final Thoughts: This archetype does a metric ton of damage, which is ok to a point but may not be considered a bit. It needs to distinguish itself more as just being a guy on fire too, what exactly is paladin like about this? What is your oath for besides lighting things on fire?

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-19, 03:16 PM
Oath Spells:
I'm going to come out and say it flat out, this Paladin archetype is far superior in the spells he's getting from his oath. Nearly all of them are AoE damage spells, but that is not necessarily a bad thing as this archetypes offers very little utility.

Yeah, the Oath Spells are still a work in progress. The paladin is intended to focus on melee combat, buffed by smites and Divine Favour and similar spells, with some AoE spells just for specific situations. Still working on deciding which should be which.


Firebrand: This is exactly the same as sacred weapon except it does fire damage, which obviously means is balanced fine, except for the fact that you gain bypass resistance and immunity entirely using this archetype which does make it a bit stronger. The problem is in that it's a carbon copy, so it's kind of boring even if it is thematic. Perhaps something about catching mundane items ablaze or something instead of just producing light.

I've been trying to come up with a different one to use instead of this one anyways. I've been thinking something similar to either the Immolate spell, or a weaker version of the second benefit of Purging Flame.


Pure Fire: 2/3 Paladin channel divinities are turn X and the other gives advantage on attacks. This archetype is heavily fire based so this is necessary but it's not really in line with the other archetypes.

I would also like a replacement for this one, but it's a bit of a necessity when using a specialist-type caster.


Cleansing Flame: Okay, so 9/10 times you've invalidated any use that I may have for Pure Fire. I get that you can now use it to reduce immunity but mostly this feature amounts to freeing up my bonus action and changing all my damage to fire damage. Since I can ignore resistance/immunity (mostly) I am definitely doing WAY more damage than the other Paladin archetypes.

This one makes Purefire a lot more situational, bringing the amount of use it will get closer in line to the "turn" abilities. Neither the "turn" abilities nor Purefire will get this much use at this level, except in really specific situations. And honestly, using fure damage instead of radiant isn't much of a buff. Very few creatures get resistance or immjnity to radiant damage, and the only ones that I can think of off the top of my head that do are Celestials. And if you're a Paladin and you're fighting Celestials, you're probably doing it wrong anyways.


Also the 2/3 Paladin 7th level abilities are Aura of X with the exception once again being the Relentless Avenger who gets to move when he makes opportunity attacks.

True. In fairness,, though, this is usually intended to be closest to the avenger anyways. At least in flavour. If I can think of a good aura-type ability for it, then I'll like use that instead.


Purging Flame: Resistance to Fire /and/ Cold seems like a bit much. Maybe just make it resistance to fire and beef up the latter half of the ability since it's a tad lack luster. Aura of courage already makes you and the people around you immune to fear and aura of protection is giving them bonuses on their saves. Make me feel more like the fire is purging me of things that other archetypes can't already take care of.

It's basically intended to deal with allies caught by Suggestion, Dominate Person, and similar effects. It's basically "cleansing them of their sins", or something. But yeah, I agree that it needs work. Considering that OotA had resistance to all spell damage since 7th level, as well as all of its nearby allies, the resistance part didn't feel unreasonable.


Capstone: Probably fine, but Charisma to damage and Immunity to fire damage stick out as perhaps being a tad much since this archetype already does so much damage. You're also making them take damage just for standing near you.

I'll probably change or just drop the "fire immunity" part. Otherwise, it's based off of Holy Nimbus, besides getting extra effects from Channel Divinity. And IMO, that's something all the Oath capstones should do.


Final Thoughts: This archetype does a metric ton of damage, which is ok to a point but may not be considered a bit. It needs to distinguish itself more as just being a guy on fire too, what exactly is paladin like about this? What is your oath for besides lighting things on fire?

It's somewhat similar to the OoV. It's mostly about cleansing corruption, and bringing light to the darkness. It's about making the world pure, beginning with the paladin and those around him. Purging Flame generally represents that the best, where the features are purging the Paladin of weakness and those he fights of sin.

PapaQuackers
2016-10-19, 03:26 PM
Yeah, the Oath Spells are still a work in progress. The paladin is intended to focus on melee combat, buffed by smites and Divine Favour and similar spells, with some AoE spells just for specific situations. Still working on deciding which should be which.



I've been trying to come up with a different one to use instead of this one anyways. I've been thinking something similar to either the Immolate spell, or a weaker version of the second benefit of Purging Flame.

That might give it a bit more feeling.

I would also like a replacement for this one, but it's a bit of a necessity when using a specialist-type caster.

I agree, the nature of an elemental archetype is that it /needs/ this feature.

This one makes Purefire a lot more situational, bringing the amount of use it will get closer in line to the "turn" abilities. Neither the "turn" abilities nor Purefire will get this much use at this level, except in really specific situations. And honestly, using fure damage instead of radiant isn't much of a buff. Very few creatures get resistance or immjnity to radiant damage, and the only ones that I can think of off the top of my head that do are Celestials. And if you're a Paladin and you're fighting Celestials, you're probably doing it wrong anyways.

That's probably true, I'm just noting that it can bypass ALL damage reduction since you can make all your damage fire and ignore all fire resistance. There is no kind of resistance that works well against this Paladin.


True. In fairness,, though, this is usually intended to be closest to the avenger anyways. At least in flavour. If I can think of a good aura-type ability for it, then I'll like use that instead.

That's fine, doesn't need an aura ability. I was just pointing it out.


It's basically intended to deal with allies caught by Suggestion, Dominate Person, and similar effects. It's basically "cleansing them of their sins", or something. But yeah, I agree that it needs work. Considering that OotA had resistance to all spell damage since 7th level, as well as all of its nearby allies, the resistance part didn't feel unreasonable.

Spell damage is more limited than flat out cold and fire damage in general. Though it may not be the biggest issue it does seem like it comes on a bit strong.

I'll probably change or just drop the "fire immunity" part. Otherwise, it's based off of Holy Nimbus, besides getting extra effects from Channel Divinity. And IMO, that's something all the Oath capstones should do.

I agree, It's not overkill. Just the fire immunity is what really strikes me.

It's somewhat similar to the OoV. It's mostly about cleansing corruption, and bringing light to the darkness. It's about making the world pure, beginning with the paladin and those around him. Purging Flame generally represents that the best, where the features are purging the Paladin of weakness and those he fights of sin.

Neat. So why not something closer to Ghost-Rider like abilities since that's what he seems like? Perhaps an immolating stare that wracks people with physic damage weighing on their sins. Or perhaps a sanctuary kind of effect that will burn anyone who attempts to damage a creature that isn't attacking them. Just spit balling, not necessarily great ideas.


I like it. I just think it needs to be more narrow in it's focus and less narrow in it's application. More about what I am, and less about how easy it is for me to fire damage.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-19, 05:55 PM
Changes: New Oath Spells, focusing more on the "healing and warmth" aspects of fire than the "destruction" aspect. Oath Spells list still WIP. Completely new Channel Divinity, a bit more original than the old ones. Need a new 15th-level feature though.

I'm mostly unsure about "Purge", right now. I want it to do enough damage that it will be used, but not enough that it will be too good.

StarvingGamer
2016-10-20, 06:10 PM
This is probably boring but maybe at 15 you can get resistance to fire damage and also ignore the effects of nonmagical high temperatures and moving through nonmagical fire. Also I am cribbing this directly from a homebrew class I made but eh I can plagiarize myself.

Nifft
2016-10-20, 06:30 PM
Tenets of the Pyre
The tenets of the Oath of the Pyre have gone unwritten for as long as the Oath has been taken, but all those who have taken the Oath know its principles as surely as their own name.
Destruction. Through the strength of the fire, the corrupted shall be purged.
Purity. Through the will of the fire, the innocent shall be purified.
Tenacity. Through the endurance of the fire, its warriors shall not falter.
Enlightenment. Through the glory of the fire, the darkest parts of the world shall be brought to light.
Suggestion:
- Creative Destruction: it's great to overthrow stagnant corruption, but you must also take time to nurture new goodness & life that grows from the ruins.
- "Innocence" and "purity" are already related concepts, so this one doesn't make sense.
- Tenacity: Fires are not known for endurance. They tend to burn out. That's the opposite of what you want. Suggest instead: "Keep bright the flame of your faith, and fan the flames of inspiration in others. Encourage creativity and expression."
- Enlightenment is fine as-is.


Oath Spells Looks good.



Channel Divinity
When you take this oath at 3rd level, you gain the following two Channel Divinity options.
Purge. As an action, you inflict one opponent within 30 feet with a holy fire that burns their soul. The target must attempt a Wisdom saving throw, taking fire damage equal to 2d6+your Charisma modifier on a failed save. The target gains no benefit from resistance to fire damage against this. Then why bother using the fire damage type?


Cleansing Flame
Beginning at 7th level, you attain a measure of control over your flame. Whenever you deal fire damage through a paladin spell or class feature, that damage bypasses resistance to fire damage. Whenever you would deal radiant damage with a paladin spell, you may choose to change the damage type to fire. When you use Divine Smite, you may also choose to deal fire damage instead of radiant. When you use this effect, you deal extra damage to aberrations and undead instead of fiends and undead.
In addition, you gain the cantrips control flames, create bonfire, and produce flame. Charisma is your spellcasting ability modifier for these, and they are treated as paladin spells for you. This seems both:
(a) weak compared to the Auras which the core Paladin oaths grant; and
(b) out of theme.

I'd suggest some kind of aura (just like the two core Paladin oaths grant), which buffs the Paladin a bit, but also buffs nearby teammates.

Some ideas:
- Aura of Purity: Resistance to Poison damage; paladin and allies within 10 ft. can't become poisoned.
- Aura of Innocence: Resistance to Radiant and Necrotic damage.
- Aura of Ash: Hostile creatures within 10 ft. of you have disadvantage on saving throws against the spells and attacks of your allies.



Form of the Pyre
At 20th level, as an action, you may assume the Form of the Pyre. For one minute, you gain the following benefits:
• You shed bright light in a 30-foot radius, and you shed dim light 30 feet beyond that.
• Whenever a creature within the area of bright light deals damage to a nonhostile, living creature that you can see, the attacking creature takes fire damage.
• You gain immunity to fire damage.
Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest before you can use is again.
- "Nonhostile" is poorly defined.
- The amount of fire damage is undefined.
- The whole thing seems kinda lack-luster as a capstone.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-20, 07:38 PM
Suggestion:
- Creative Destruction: it's great to overthrow stagnant corruption, but you must also take time to nurture new goodness & life that grows from the ruins.

Definitely a possibility. Not entirely sure about how it fits with the flavour, but I might still use something along those lines.


- "Innocence" and "purity" are already related concepts, so this one doesn't make sense.

I don't even remember where that one came from, so I'm not entireoy sure what my reasoning for that one was. I'll work on it.


- Tenacity: Fires are not known for endurance. They tend to burn out. That's the opposite of what you want. Suggest instead: "Keep bright the flame of your faith, and fan the flames of inspiration in others. Encourage creativity and expression."

Not quite sure where that one came from either. I think I had listened to too much of RWBY's "I Burn" before writing that. Funny, though. I'd had valid reasoning for the "fire as tenacity" thing, but I just can't remember it. I'll work on that one as well


Then why bother using the fire damage type?

Immunity, vulnerability, and flavour basically.


This seems both:
(a) weak compared to the Auras which the core Paladin oaths grant; and
(b) out of theme.

Not sure what part of it's out of theme, honestly. Since this oath is almost purely about fighting with fire, the "ignore resistance" part and the "change radiant (paladin's standard damage type) to fire" parts just made sense to me. The "extra damage to abberations instead of fiends" part represents them purging the corrupted as opposed to standard paladin stuff. The cantrips are kinda just there for the flavour of conjuring magical fire at will.

The "ignoring resistance to fire damage" does fit with the flavour. It's holy fire, a bit different from regualr fire. You know how part of Flame Strike's damage in some editions was basically untyped, to represent the holy fire? It's basically that. And using fire instead of radiant basically represents that as well


I'd suggest some kind of aura (just like the two core Paladin oaths grant), which buffs the Paladin a bit, but also buffs nearby teammates.

Considering it, but right now the 7th-level things are somewhat necessary for flavour reasons. Wow, that sounded stupid.


Some ideas:
- Aura of Purity: Resistance to Poison damage; paladin and allies within 10 ft. can't become poisoned.
- Aura of Innocence: Resistance to Radiant and Necrotic damage.
- Aura of Ash: Hostile creatures within 10 ft. of you have disadvantage on saving throws against the spells and attacks of your allies.

Those are fun, and I will likely make use of them if I do end up using auras


- "Nonhostile" is poorly defined.
- The amount of fire damage is undefined.
- The whole thing seems kinda lack-luster as a capstone.

"Nonhostile" is about as well defined there as it is in the descriptions of the Paladin's "Aura" spells. It's basically intended to mean "any living creature that isn't hostile towards the paladin", but that actually felt a bit too wordy. Forgot to write the fire damage. It was meant to be 10 damage, similarly to Holy Nimbus. Difference is, this one can trigger more often but is less likely to trigger anyways. As to it being lackluster, that part I honestly don't know how to fix.