Discrepancy about flying PCs

[cakesoldier]

So in my upcoming campaign, I'm running a flying character with average maneuverability. My DM says that unless I get the 'hover' monster feat that I will have to land at the end of every turn, since I can't fly without moving. I disagree, based on the notion that ending one's turn doesn't paralyse them in space, but I cannot seem to find any regulation that directly refutes his reasoning. Can anyone help us out?

[J-H]

Dragons have worse than average maneuverability, and they do not have to land every turn.

What you're stuck with, though, is the fact that you must move every turn to avoid crashing, and thus cannot make a full attack or cast a spell with a casting time of 1 full round while airborne.

Per the SRD:

"If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement."

If it does maintain its forward speed, therefore, it does not stall and does not have to land.

[icefractal]

Minimum Forward Speed

If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. As long as you move at least your minimum forward speed each turn (which for average manueverability is half your speed), then you don't need to land.

Also, you might remind him that by this house-rule, dragons and most other flying monsters, even many birds, would have to land each round.

And heck, if he does go through with it, take the Hover feat and enjoy having better flying ability than the majority of flying opponents out there. Unless he just starts giving them said feat for free, which you could rightly call BS on.

[Venger]

So in my upcoming campaign, I'm running a flying character with average maneuverability. My DM says that unless I get the 'hover' monster feat that I will have to land at the end of every turn, since I can't fly without moving. I disagree, based on the notion that ending one's turn doesn't paralyse them in space, but I cannot seem to find any regulation that directly refutes his reasoning. Can anyone help us out?

your dm is wrong. here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm) are the rules on maneuverability.

[Âmesang]

If it at all possible, learn or gain access to the spell aerial alacrity from Races of the Wild; it's a swift action spell that'll improve your maneuverability by one category ("good," in your case), with other helpful bonuses, lasting 1 minute/level.

Alternatively you can pick up the Improved Flight feat which will also improve your maneuverability… or get both for "perfect"! :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

Your DM is confused. You don't have to land, you just have to maintain a minimum forward speed. As long as you move half your speed or more in the round, you can keep flying.

Also, FYI, Improved Flight is a lot better than Hover. It improves your maneuverability by one step, which brings you to good, removing the minimum forward speed while also upgrading other aspects of your flight (like allowing you to fly straight up).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Dragons have worse than average maneuverability, and they do not have to land every turn.

What you're stuck with, though, is the fact that you must move every turn to avoid crashing, and thus cannot make a full attack or cast a spell with a casting time of 1 full round while airborne.

Per the SRD:

"If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement."

If it does maintain its forward speed, therefore, it does not stall and does not have to land.

Actually, you can cast a 1 Round (or greater) spell whilst Flying with less than Good Maneuverability. Basically, you break it up into multiple Standard Actions (2 per round the casting takes).

Now that I say that, I may be thinking of Full-Round Action spells. Hmmm...

[Venger]

Actually, you can cast a 1 Round (or greater) spell whilst Flying with less than Good Maneuverability. Basically, you break it up into multiple Standard Actions (2 per round the casting takes).

Now that I say that, I may be thinking of Full-Round Action spells. Hmmm...

No, you are thinking of full-round actions (it's not restricted to spells) This trick doesn't work for 1 round+ spells.



Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

This is my favorite way to use the channeled x spells in combat.

[jdizzlean]

i would imagine that flyby attack would be a more realistic feat you'd be required to get, so that by flying you can still act in a meaningful fashion each turn, and not just travel from a to b.

[Knight Magenta]

Take ranks in Fly. The DC to hover is 15, you should be able to make that trivially by mid levels.

[J-H]

That's only for Pathfinder.

[Andezzar]

If it at all possible, learn or gain access to the spell aerial alacrity from Races of the Wild; it's a swift action spell that'll improve your maneuverability by one category ("good," in your case), with other helpful bonuses, lasting 1 minute/level.

Alternatively you can pick up the Improved Flight feat which will also improve your maneuverability… or get both for "perfect"! :smallsmile:A (Greater) Pectoral of Maneuverability in Draconomicon can also improve your maneuverability by one or two categories. Especially the greater version is quite expensive though. Maybe talk to your DM, because the spell the item is based on (greater wings of air) has been dropped from 5th level to 4th in the Spell Compendium. So he might make the item cheaper accordingly.


i would imagine that flyby attack would be a more realistic feat you'd be required to get, so that by flying you can still act in a meaningful fashion each turn, and not just travel from a to b.If you can figure out how flyby attack works, it might be beneficial.


Take ranks in Fly. The DC to hover is 15, you should be able to make that trivially by mid levels.Where can I find the Fly skill?

[Venger]

A (Greater) Pectoral of Maneuverability in Draconomicon can also improve your maneuverability by one or two categories. Especially the greater version is quite expensive though. Maybe talk to your DM, because the spell the item is based on (greater wings of air) has been dropped from 5th level to 4th in the Spell Compendium. So he might make the item cheaper accordingly.

If you can figure out how flyby attack works, it might be beneficial.

Where can I find the Fly skill?

as mentioned, fly isn't a skill in 3.5. it's a pathfinder skill.

you might dip incarnate or totemist to get one of their fly speeds instead. unlocks a bunch of other goodies too.

[Âmesang]

A (Greater) Pectoral of Maneuverability in Draconomicon can also improve your maneuverability by one or two categories.
If I remember correctly, though, the pectoral of maneuverability and its greater form, as well as the spells they're based upon, only apply if your mode of flying is due to wings; those with wingless flight are out of luck.

[Venger]

If I remember correctly, though, the pectoral of maneuverability and its greater form, as well as the spells they're based upon, only apply if your mode of flying is due to wings; those with wingless flight are out of luck.

Nah. it can be worn by either a winged creature like a dragon, or a humanoid who has no wings. draconomicon p83.

[Âmesang]

"A winged creature wearing a pectoral of maneuverability has its flying maneuverability improved by one step. A greater pectoral of maneuverability improves maneuverability by two steps. A humanoid can wear a pectoral as if it were a vest."
My interpretation was that the humanoid would still have to be a "winged creature" in order to benefit from it (since that's how the [greater] wings of air spells work), and that the text is merely specifying what body slot the item would take up on a humanoid for such purposes.

[SangoProduction]

Well, can you say that your Fly spell uses wings? (assuming that's how you are getting the flight) It doesn't say it has to be wingless flight (indeed, transmutation suggests that it's changing the body to allow for flight).

[Ruslan]

Dragons have worse than average maneuverability, and they do not have to land every turn.

What you're stuck with, though, is the fact that you must move every turn to avoid crashing, and thus cannot make a full attack or cast a spell with a casting time of 1 full round while airborne.

Per the SRD:

"If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement."

If it does maintain its forward speed, therefore, it does not stall and does not have to land.

What you need to do is somehow finagle a reduction in your flying speed to 10' (carry heavy load, take Flaws or Traits that reduce speed, whatever works). Then, half of your flying speed is a 5' step. You can stay airborne just by taking a 5' step each round, and can therefore make full attacks.

[Venger]

Well, can you say that your Fly spell uses wings? (assuming that's how you are getting the flight) It doesn't say it has to be wingless flight (indeed, transmutation suggests that it's changing the body to allow for flight).

There are some spells that actually work this way, such as demon wings. Fly, by default, doesn't work this way.

I knew there was another use for spell thematics!

What you need to do is somehow finagle a reduction in your flying speed to 10' (carry heavy load, take Flaws or Traits that reduce speed, whatever works). Then, half of your flying speed is a 5' step. You can stay airborne just by taking a 5' step each round, and can therefore make full attacks.

You can also wear armor, or use spells such as tortoise shell that impede your speed. I like the way you think, but unfortunately a creature whose normal movement speed is 5' is specifically disallowed from taking a 5 foot step.

[Andezzar]

Well, can you say that your Fly spell uses wings? (assuming that's how you are getting the flight) It doesn't say it has to be wingless flight (indeed, transmutation suggests that it's changing the body to allow for flight).No. A spell does what the description says, nothing more nothing less. Since Fly does not say you gain wings (with all advantages and disadvantages) you do not gain wings. You could however work with your DM to create (OOC) and and research (IC) a spell that grants you flight by adding wings.

[Zsaber0]

Take the Improved Flight feat to go from Average to Good maneuverability and then call out the DM every time an enemy flies in a way that it should not.

[Ruslan]

You can also wear armor, or use spells such as tortoise shell that impede your speed. I like the way you think, but unfortunately a creature whose normal movement speed is 5' is specifically disallowed from taking a 5 foot step.

No, you need to reduce your speed to 10', not 5. Because, you see, to stay airborne, you need to move at least half your speed each round. Speed reduction to 10' both allows you to take 5' steps, and makes those 5' steps sufficient to stay airborne.

[Mordaedil]

If you want wings just use alter self.