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Nifft
2016-10-14, 01:46 AM
Tsochar
http://i.imgur.com/DJp2oKQ.jpg

Tsochar stats can be found in Lords of Madness, p.121.

These horrid little guys have a lot of potential, but I feel like they could use some updated mechanics to work better in the game.

Specifically, I'd like to brainstorm variants of their Wear Flesh ability.


Wear Flesh (Su): A tsochar can bore its way into a helpless living creature’s body, slipping its ropy tendrils into the spaces between organs and muscles and disappearing into the victim. The victim must be the same size as the tsochar or larger, and the process requires 1 minute. The tsochar can choose to replace or inhabit the victim (see below). Incorporeal creatures and constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead are immune to this ability.

A tsochar can abandon a body it has inhabited or replaced with a full-round action that deals 3d6 points of damage to the host. A tsochar can be forced to abandon the body by a remove disease or dispel evil spell (the caster must succeed on a DC 20 caster level check to expel the monster, which deals damage as described above) or a heal or limited wish spell (which automatically succeeds and causes no damage to the host).

Inhabit: The tsochar leaves its victim alive and aware. Any time it cares to, it can inflict indescribable agony on its host as a standard action, dealing 1d6 to 6d6 points of damage and requiring the host to succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be nauseated by the pain for 2d4 rounds. The tsochar chooses how much damage it deals with this attack.

The tsochar can take no physical actions while inhabiting a host, but it can use purely mental actions (such as communicating with its host by means of its telepathy power and threatening to injure or kill the host unless the host does as the monster wishes).

When the host takes damage (other than damage the tsochar inflicts on it), the inhabiting tsochar takes half that damage. For example, if the host takes 28 points of cold damage from a cone of cold spell, the tsochar takes 14 points of cold damage.

A tsochar inhabiting a humanoid’s body feeds on the creature’s blood and tissues, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage per day. A successful DC 15 Fortitude save reduces this damage by half. Over the course of days, frail humanoids carrying tsochari sicken and die, although tsochari are clever enough to direct their hosts to acquire curative magic to keep themselves alive indefinitely, if the situation calls for it.

Replace: The tsochar bores out the victim’s nervous system, killing the victim. It then animates the body, effectively acting as the nervous system of the dead host. The body remains alive, hosting the tsochar.

This functions like a polymorph spell into the victim’s exact form, except that the tsochar can remain in the victim’s form for up to a year, and it leaves the victim’s corpse behind when it chooses to end the effect. The tsochar uses the victim’s physical ability scores in place of its own, as described by polymorph. The tsochar can remain in this form indefinitely, but once it abandons the form, it cannot reanimate the body.

Tsochari that have replaced a humanoid slowly devour their new shell from the inside out. A replaced body takes 1d4 points of Constitution drain per month, which does not heal naturally and can be restored only by magical means. A successful DC 15 Fortitude save reduces this damage by half. Naturally, tsochari imposters choose to abandon bodies they have replaced before they become too weak to be serviceable.


Those two options are lacking, and somewhat dull. Either the Tsochar is able to compel service by threatening its victim, or the victim is already dead. The Tsochar is powerless while inside a victim, so it only fights the PCs as a separate entity after abandoning its host-body -- and when it does so, it's probably injured thanks to the half-damage rule.

There's a bit of a surprise when the tentacles burst out, but overall, these are not the most exciting fights.

So, I want to brainstorm how to make Tsochari infestation more interesting across the full span of an encounter, from initial meeting through combat. Ideally, there will be enough mechanically interesting stuff that a player might agree to roleplay a Tsochari infestation for some span of time, and to make the inevitable insane cultists who willingly host a Tsochar into a distinct element.

Here are my initial thoughts.

- - -

Psionics: A Tsochar manifests as a Psion with a manifester level equal to its hit dice. Most Tsochar choose to master the discipline of Psychometabolism or Psychoportation.

Body Feeder: While wearing the flesh of a host creature, the tsochar can use the Overchannel feat, with the following modification: each level of increase costs 1 point of ability burn for the host creature instead of inflicting damage on the tsochar.

Wear Flesh (Su): Target must be willing or helpless, takes 1 minute to infest target, must be corporeal & living & have a discernible anatomy, etc.

When wearing the flesh of another creature, a Tsochar chooses one of the following systems to replace:


Nervous System: The target creature dies. The tsochar then animates the body, effectively acting as the nervous system of the dead host. The body remains alive, hosting the tsochar.

This functions like a polymorph spell into the victim’s exact form, except that the tsochar can remain in the victim’s form for up to a year, and it leaves the victim’s corpse behind when it chooses to end the effect. The tsochar uses the victim’s physical ability scores or its own, whichever is better. The tsochar can remain in this form indefinitely, but once it abandons the form, it cannot reanimate the body.

The tsochar keeps the victim's arcane spells, etc.

.
Digestive System: The tsochar leaves its target alive and aware. Any time it cares to, it can inflict indescribable agony on its host as a standard action, dealing 1d6 to 6d6 points of damage and requiring the host to succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be nauseated by the pain for 2d4 rounds. The tsochar chooses how much damage it deals with this attack.

The tsochar can take no physical actions while hiding inside a host, but it can use purely mental actions (including Psionics which target itself or its host).

If the tsochar leaves the host creature, the host creature becomes unable to eat or drink until the host receives a heal, restoration, regeneration, limited wish, wish, or miracle spell.

Symbiosis: The tsochar's cold resistance is shared with its host, and the host becomes immune to nausea (except nausea inflicted by the tsochar).

On the host creature's turn, the tsochar can consume the host's move action to extrude a pair of tentacles from the host's belly, sides, or mouth. While the tentacles are extruded, the host creature can only take a single move or standard action each turn. However, the tsochar can also take a standard action each turn, to attack with the tentacles or use psionic powers.

When the host takes damage (other than damage the tsochar inflicts on it), the damage is split between the host and the inhabiting tsochar, before applying resistances. For example, if the host would take 28 points of cold damage from a cone of cold spell, the damage is split into 14 each, and then the host and tsochar's cold resistance is applied, so each take only (14-5 =) 9 points of damage.

As another example, if the host would take 20 points of slashing damage from an orc's steel axe, the damage is split into 10 each for host and tsochar, but the tsochar only suffers 5 damage because of its damage resistance.

.
Muscles & Tendons: The tsochar leaves its target alive and aware. Any time it cares to, it can inflict indescribable agony on its host as a standard action, dealing 1d6 to 6d6 points of damage and requiring the host to succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be nauseated by the pain for 2d4 rounds. The tsochar chooses how much damage it deals with this attack.

The tsochar can take no physical actions while hiding inside a host, but it can use purely mental actions (including Psionics which target itself or its host).

If the tsochar leaves the host creature, the host creature becomes unable to move until the host receives a heal, restoration, regeneration, limited wish, wish, or miracle spell.

Symbiosis: The tsochar's damage resistance (5/adamantine) is shared with its host, and the host becomes immune to paralysis.

On the host creature's turn, the tsochar can consume the host's move action to extrude a pair of tentacles from the host's elbows, knees, or spine. While the tentacles are extruded, the host creature can only take a single move or standard action each turn. However, the tsochar can also take a standard action each turn, to attack with the tentacles or use psionic powers.

When the host takes damage (other than damage the tsochar inflicts on it), the damage is split between the host and the inhabiting tsochar, before applying resistances. For example, if the host would take 28 points of cold damage from a cone of cold spell, the damage is split into 14 each, and then the tsochar's cold resistance is applied, so the host suffers 14 cold damage, but the tsochar takes only (14-5 =) 9 points of damage.

As another example, if the host would take 20 points of slashing damage from an orc's steel axe, the damage is split into 10 each for host and tsochar, and then reduced to 5 each due to their shared damage reduction.


Thoughts?

Extra Anchovies
2016-10-14, 07:46 AM
The first thing that has to be done with the Tsochar is to recognize that Wear Flesh cannot work at all, physically. Tsochar are just too big to fit inside another creature's body without fatally disrupting the host's life processes. That means Wear Flesh would have to be (Su), which it is - but how it's magical isn't explained. Maybe they shrink themselves down and carve out a space for their smaller form by removing a significant amount of the connective tissues between the host's organs while leaving the organs untouched and functional. Maybe they transpose most of their body mass to the ethereal plane, with the host's body only physically containing just enough of the tsochar for them to communicate with and inflict terrible pain on the host.


Either the Tsochar is able to compel service by threatening its victim, or the victim is already dead.

Your wording here makes me thing of a Tsochar who practices Hokuto Shinken (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/483/928/fb0.jpg). They've already got the whole head-exploding bit of it figured out.

Venger
2016-10-14, 09:53 AM
The first thing that has to be done with the Tsochar is to recognize that Wear Flesh cannot work at all, physically. Tsochar are just too big to fit inside another creature's body without fatally disrupting the host's life processes. That means Wear Flesh would have to be (Su), which it is - but how it's magical isn't explained. Maybe they shrink themselves down and carve out a space for their smaller form by removing a significant amount of the connective tissues between the host's organs while leaving the organs untouched and functional. Maybe they transpose most of their body mass to the ethereal plane, with the host's body only physically containing just enough of the tsochar for them to communicate with and inflict terrible pain on the host.



Your wording here makes me thing of a Tsochar who practices Hokuto Shinken (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/483/928/fb0.jpg). They've already got the whole head-exploding bit of it figured out.

It's possible they can compress themselves like an octopus. They don't look like they have any bones, and that would fit with them being aberrations. With that in mind, it's possible they could just jam their way into your digestive tract (which is long enough to accomodate their mass) and filter oxygen and nutrients in there like a cerebral hood.

DrMotives
2016-10-14, 10:46 AM
Part of how they fit is the octopus-like physiology, but also they're modular creatures, like Lovecraft's Legos. The picture shown is a bunch of seperate Tsochar tendrils all twisted together like a braid of hair, and each tendril is a complete organism. The thing is, the seperate tendrils are fairly unintelligent, their minds are an emergent trait when a half-dozen or whatever the number in Lords of Madness is come together to make a "single" Tsochar. This is all in the fluff text through, there's no crunch or stat block way to separate a single-minded Tsochar group into the individual organism strands. But it does help explain how they fit inside a host body so well.

Psyren
2016-10-14, 12:34 PM
The first thing that has to be done with the Tsochar is to recognize that Wear Flesh cannot work at all, physically. Tsochar are just too big to fit inside another creature's body without fatally disrupting the host's life processes. That means Wear Flesh would have to be (Su), which it is - but how it's magical isn't explained. Maybe they shrink themselves down and carve out a space for their smaller form by removing a significant amount of the connective tissues between the host's organs while leaving the organs untouched and functional. Maybe they transpose most of their body mass to the ethereal plane, with the host's body only physically containing just enough of the tsochar for them to communicate with and inflict terrible pain on the host.

As you yourself pointed out, the ability is supernatural, so understanding how it works is a moot point. It works because magic, and because it says it does. Maybe it can shed or displace mass/volume as needed to fit, or even merge seamlessly with the host's organs, and these both would even explain why magic is needed to extricate them.



So, I want to brainstorm how to make Tsochari infestation more interesting across the full span of an encounter, from initial meeting through combat. Ideally, there will be enough mechanically interesting stuff that a player might agree to roleplay a Tsochari infestation for some span of time, and to make the inevitable insane cultists who willingly host a Tsochar into a distinct element.

The easiest approach if you want an "elite tsochar" or three is a template that gives them more purely-mental options. Phrenic Creature is the obvious choice but there are others.


Thoughts?

1) The Nervous System one probably has the most potential to be broken. If I can konk Elminster on the head then this thing gets access to all his powers. In addition, I assume that the Tsochar uses its own mental stats with any powers it gains (potentially not being able to access the most powerful abilities of its host, or having weaker save DCs) but this isn't clear.

2) Your Digestive ability is oddly worded: they have to save vs. nausea when it "motivates" them, but the very parasite they're hosting makes them immune to nausea.

3) For Muscles, staggering the host should really happen on the tsochar's turn. This avoids arguments about the host using his move action before the parasite can steal it.

Palanan
2016-10-14, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies
The first thing that has to be done with the Tsochar is to recognize that Wear Flesh cannot work at all, physically. Tsochar are just too big to fit inside another creature's body without fatally disrupting the host's life processes.

The octopus analogy is a good start, although my impression was always that a tsochar's tendrils are too tough and rubbery to really compress much.

But my mental image of the tsochar is something with many more tendrils than the artwork shows us, and much finer; and if those tendrils are cunningly slipped around organs, I think the extra mass can be spread easily throughout the body cavity. Not pleasant, but feasible.


Originally Posted by Nifft
There's a bit of a surprise when the tentacles burst out, but overall, these are not the most exciting fights.

When I used a tsochar in my last campaign, it was one of the most exciting fights we had, in part because the tsochar had several class levels and was flying circles around the PCs once it erupted from its host.

The fight came down to one last desperate shot from the ranger, who scored a double-critical on the tsochar just before half the party went down. I ruled that the arrow severed a key connection in the central knot, sending tendrils spraying all around the chamber. That was one of the most timely crits I've ever seen.

KillianHawkeye
2016-10-14, 11:58 PM
I always thought these guys would be perfect for a Stargate-style campaign setting. They'd need to be able to directly control the host without killing them, so change it to be an automatically successful at-will dominate effect. They should be able to access the knowledge and memories of their host, and so be able to perfectly impersonate them in addition to getting to use all their skills, feats, and class features.

I also really like the idea of giving them at least a little inherent manifesting (probably with a psychometabolism focus).

Nifft
2016-10-15, 06:26 PM
The first thing that has to be done with the Tsochar is to recognize that Wear Flesh cannot work at all, physically. Tsochar are just too big to fit inside another creature's body without fatally disrupting the host's life processes. That means Wear Flesh would have to be (Su), which it is - but how it's magical isn't explained. Maybe they shrink themselves down and carve out a space for their smaller form by removing a significant amount of the connective tissues between the host's organs while leaving the organs untouched and functional. Maybe they transpose most of their body mass to the ethereal plane, with the host's body only physically containing just enough of the tsochar for them to communicate with and inflict terrible pain on the host. I figured it was easiest to just explicitly say that the tsochar is eating a big chunk of the host creature, and the tsochar replaced that chunk, which would allow it to give different effects based on which chunk it ate & replaced.


Your wording here makes me thing of a Tsochar who practices Hokuto Shinken (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/483/928/fb0.jpg). They've already got the whole head-exploding bit of it figured out.
Head explosions are a timeless art.


http://i.imgur.com/H0qxf68.jpg



The easiest approach if you want an "elite tsochar" or three Nope. Don't want that.


1) The Nervous System one probably has the most potential to be broken. Heh, that's the only one which was stolen word-for-word from WotC.


2) Your Digestive ability is oddly worded: they have to save vs. nausea when it "motivates" them, but the very parasite they're hosting makes them immune to nausea. Ah, yes. Like with damage, the tsochar is supposed to give you an advantage against ill effects EXCEPT the ones which the tsochar inflicts on you itself. Now the text says that explicitly.

Just for your information: this thread is for brainstorming, not finalizing the technical writing of a finished power set, so I'd prefer to discuss new ideas rather than the details of my initial ideas.


When I used a tsochar in my last campaign, it was one of the most exciting fights we had, in part because the tsochar had several class levels and was flying circles around the PCs once it erupted from its host.

The fight came down to one last desperate shot from the ranger, who scored a double-critical on the tsochar just before half the party went down. I ruled that the arrow severed a key connection in the central knot, sending tendrils spraying all around the chamber. That was one of the most timely crits I've ever seen. Huh, interesting. How many HP did the tsochar have total, and how many HP had the tsochar lost before bursting out?

Also what class levels did you buff it with?


I always thought these guys would be perfect for a Stargate-style campaign setting. They'd need to be able to directly control the host without killing them, so change it to be an automatically successful at-will dominate effect. They should be able to access the knowledge and memories of their host, and so be able to perfectly impersonate them in addition to getting to use all their skills, feats, and class features. Domination would be a lot stronger than replacing a host, because the replacement mechanism only allows casting of spells that the host already had -- the parasite can never prepare new spells, so it's a use-it-and-lose-it situation.

(Which is cool, because it means the tsochar is rewarded for treating people as disposable -- and that sort of evil alien mindset seems totally appropriate.)


I also really like the idea of giving them at least a little inherent manifesting (probably with a psychometabolism focus). Yeah, the thing I'm not sure about is giving them full ML = HD.

Maybe something like ML = half HD, to encourage them to take actual Psion levels? Or just ML = 4, HD don't help, go take Psion levels? I dunno.

MaxiDuRaritry
2016-10-15, 06:32 PM
Disallow a tsochar from using its wear flesh ability on corporeal constructs, for one. As written, only incorporeal constructs are disallowed.

Nifft
2016-10-15, 06:35 PM
Disallow a tsochar from using its wear flesh ability on corporeal constructs, for one. As written, only incorporeal constructs are disallowed.

Incorrect according to the Rules Compendium p.42:



Precision damage applies only against living creatures that have discernible anatomies. Undead, constructs, deathless, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures are not subject to precision damage, and creatures that are not subject to critical hits are not subject to precision damage.

MaxiDuRaritry
2016-10-15, 06:39 PM
Incorrect according to the Rules Compendium p.42:And that applies to this situation how, exactly? Tsochar are only disallowed from inhabiting the listed creatures in the wear flesh ability. This list does not include corporeal constructs, only incorporeal ones, with the way it's written.

[edit] I was referring to the original ability.

Nifft
2016-10-15, 06:50 PM
And that applies to this situation how, exactly? Tsochar are only disallowed from inhabiting the listed creatures in the wear flesh ability. This list does not include corporeal constructs, only incorporeal ones, with the way it's written.

[edit] I was referring to the original ability.

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about my write-up, which does explicitly disallow inhabiting anything that lacks a discernible anatomy.

If the original says that, then that's another thing to correct from the original.

Thanks!

Nifft
2016-10-18, 08:18 PM
Welp, I guess that's all the help that's coming.

Here's the final product: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503805-Tsochar-Psionic

Thanks everyone.