Who would win in a fight between a Paladin & Rogue?

[Douche]

Someone mentioned in the last thread (cleric vs wizard) that they'd like to see more of these threads, so I figured I'd make another one. I don't plan on making these every week or anything, but that discussion petered out so I thought I'd pick two new classes. I'll also add some qualifiers to make the discussion a little more focused, but feel free to speculate on alternate scenarios if you wish.

- Both the Paladin & the Rogue are aware of each other's presence and know they will be facing off tomorrow.

- They will be facing off in or around this manor, and are forbidden to leave until one is dead. Because a cosmic entity known only as DM refuses to render anything outside of the manor ground http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Jedi_Dade/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons%20%20pics/telecanthussmansion.jpg

(link for if someone can't load the image) http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Jedi_Dade/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons%20%20pics/telecanthussmansion.jpg

- They will have 3 rounds, in between which they instantly level up (First round, level 4. Second round, level 8. Third round, level 12). They cannot multiclass or change archetypes.

- To balance things out, the rogue was loaned his warlock friend's invisible familiar, which allows him to get sneak attack but will not grant him advantage (nor any of the other benefits you get from a familiar, since it's not his).

[Specter]

Considering the Rogue can deliver Sneak, I'd say Rogue. Otherwise, Paladin would trump him. But Paladins still have a chance with 22AC.

[Conradine]

The rogue would stun the paladin hitting her on the head with a lead sheet.

[Spiritchaser]

The rogue would stun the paladin hitting her on the head with a lead sheet.

Shouldn't matter. No significant parts of a paladin's operating system are stored in their brain

[comk59]

Saitama. It's always Saitama.

[MadBear]

I don't think we have enough information at his point. I'd need both of their AC/Stats/Builds to fairly determing who might win.

I'd assume the rogue would be going first with a higher dex, and 2 chances to get a sneak attack every round (attack + twf). The Paladin's attacks are likely to hurt quite a bit as well, and likely benifit from advantage if they went vengeance. That plus smite might be enough, but again, without more info, I'd be hard pressed to call it either way.

[ClintACK]

Terrain that lets the rogue hide and an ally to give him sneak attack gives the Rogue a big advantage. But is it enough? The Paladin's nova damage is pretty impressive -- a smiting, vengeance, GWM Paladin can one-shot a 4th level Rogue.

4th level:
Assuming 12 Con for the Rogue and 14 Con for the Paladin, they're at 27 hps and 36 hps respectively.

The Rogue on a sneak attack does something like 1d6+3+2d6 -- he will probably kill the Paladin on his second or third sneak attack.

The Paladin on a smite does something like 1d8+3+2d8 -- he will probably kill the Rogue on his second smite attack.

Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert won't help the rogue that much -- he still only gets one sneak attack per round, and even with the +10 damage he needs two rounds to kill the Paladin.

Assassin -- if he gets surprise -- lets the Rogue do 2d6+3+4d6 in a surprise sneak-crit. That gives him a chance to one-shot the Paladin, but he'd have to roll really well on damage.

GWM *will* help the Paladin -- if he can hit at -5, he can do 1d8+13+2d8 on his first hit, with a 50-50 shot of killing the Rogue in his first hit.

So... a v-human Paladin with Alertness and GWM has a pretty good shot to win at 4th level -- unless the Rogue can contrive to start the battle with archery from outside the Paladin's move-and-attack range, or get hidden again after his attack.


As always, with these threads, it comes down to details. Like: Can the Rogue snipe the Paladin and get back into hiding with Cunning Action? (If so, easy win for the Rogue.) Or can the Paladin hang out in a small room so that the Rogue can't attack him without entering melee range? Or can a Paladin with Sentinel use the terrain so that the Rogue can't attack without entering his melee range, triggering an OA?

Real battles are always going to be messy.

[MaxDPSsays]

I think a wizard would win, hands down!

Oh wait...

[RulesJD]

I think a wizard would win, hands down!

Oh wait...

Who do you think set the test up in the first place?

[Foxhound438]

I'd say, in a simple "you're standing next to each other, go" fight, paladin would win 9 times out of 10, with spellcasting options and enough slots to both smite and put some control spell down (wrathful smite or Ancients' ensnaring strike would s***-can the rogue by cutting off SA; e-strike would be better for the fact that most rogues want to go dex...)

So if you ask me it comes down to how hiding is adjudicated, primarily. If the rogue hides behind a bush, and the paladin turns the corner, does the paladin automatically spot the rogue for the rogue not being obscured at all? or does he have to spend his action rolling perception? Even then, a "hold action" would be pretty good. Turns off some bonus action options (vow comes to mind), as well as extra attack (as we all remember from the old fighter vs wizard thread).



Here's my go-to quality build paladin, or at least the version for "optimization challenges", +/- a few things... namely, I like dragonborn, but total optimization shoe-horns everything to Vuman.


Ancients pally: Vuman (polearm master)

At 4: 16/8/14/8/10/18, dueling style, qs+b; +5 to attack, +5 damage on a d6 and then a d4; AC 18 (chain, shield)
relevant spells would be wrathful smite and ensnaring strike, though Shield of Faith might be favored.

At 8: 16/8/14/8/10/20, AC at least 19 (splint). +6 to attack, +5 damage on a d6 twice and a d4 once. branding smite might become more favorable if stealth rulings turn out to be against him, as a shining beacon of "here I am" would be pretty impossible to justify saying is hard to spot. Ancients spells of course have some viability for use here, but by no means a "silver bullet" option.

At 12: 18/8/14/8/10/20, AC now expectably 20, with +8 to attack, +6 damage on a d6+d8 twice and once on a d4+d8. blinding smite gives this pally 3 different save types on which to impose disadvantage to the rogue.

Someone else might throw in war caster, which is fair for keeping concentration. Others might insist on putting in observant and/or alert, but since the scenario isn't "build a thing specifically to counter a class" it's hard for me to justify taking those, as I don't when building normal campaign-worthy paladins.

As an aside, I hope we never see any "x vs monk" versions of these threads, because it reeeally goes down to whether or not the monk lands stunning strikes later on. Early on, the monk's many attacks and great kiting abilities gives them the advantage over most things, as well as having a defensive option to answer almost anything, but past 5 it really starts to look more and more like save or die territory.

[Mikey P]

With a whole manor to run around and hide in, the Paladin stands no chance unless the match up starts in melee range.

The rogue can simply snipe+run+hide and leave the paladin waiting for the next surprise. then scurry off and set traps to lead the bold Paladin right through... for the next round of snipe+run+hide.

[Aembrosia]

The paladin. The rogue cant fight him toe to toe to king of the hill the most important room in the house. The rogue has to play hit and run with his high movement and stealth.
The paladin turtles in the kitchen/storeroom, barricades it, and rations the remaining food until the other starves to death.

[Douche]

With a whole manor to run around and hide in, the Paladin stands no chance unless the match up starts in melee range.

The rogue can simply snipe+run+hide and leave the paladin waiting for the next surprise. then scurry off and set traps to lead the bold Paladin right through... for the next round of snipe+run+hide.

See, this is the problem I have with Dark Souls invasions. If you're invading, the host will always be a little wuss and run back to where all the enemies are cleared out & it's safe for him. But when you're the one being invaded, the invaders think that you have to fight on their terms & will just run and hide amongst the enemies to give themselves the advantage.... The game basically devolves into who has more patience.

Now, when I play, I fight on the other person's terms, because I'm not scared of facing an invader among AI enemies (and it makes them even more intimidated when they see me killing AI enemies as well as fending off his attacks). Same for when I'm invading - if the host wants to fight in an empty area where he isn't at a disadvantage, then I will oblige him. I mean, you can read these stories on Dark Souls forums where people literally spend half an hour or longer running from each other or hiding behind enemies, because they're too chickens*** to actually play the goddamn game. I came to fight, not play hide & seek.

My point being, the Paladin would have to be an idiot to chase the Rogue. If I were the Paladin I would just sit in the largest room with my back to the wall & wait for the rogue to appear. Unless he was ranged, then I would go inside a small room. There's nothing forcing the Paladin to fight on the rogue's terms. I also don't know how you guys handle sneaking, but you usually need something to provide you with cover. If the Paladin is in the empty entrance hall (M3), then there's nothing to provide the rogue with obscurement.

Furthermore, in all my games I haven't met a Paladin who didn't learn Hunters Mark. Rogue will have a hard time sneaking around with that.

[Shining Wrath]

The paladin. The rogue cant fight him toe to toe to king of the hill the most important room in the house. The rogue has to play hit and run with his high movement and stealth.
The paladin turtles in the kitchen/storeroom, barricades it, and rations the remaining food until the other starves to death.

^This.

If the paladin can make the rogue come to him - and this is one way to do it, there may be others - the rogue's ability to hide becomes a lot less important. Also, if the familiar is helping, the familiar can be attacked, and the paladin can almost certainly one-short a normal familiar. If I'm the DM having a mouse in your pocket doesn't let you sneak attack, the ally has to be a distraction of some sort. To be a distraction, it has to be visible and capable of action. So if the paladin's tactically smart, no more sneak attack after the first melee exchange.

Also, if the rogue is trying to hit and run, that lets the Paladin use Lay on Hands.

I think the rogue has the best chance at level 1 where his/her chance to lay a single sneak attack on the paladin that takes them out is highest. Assuming the paladin takes out the familiar in round one, after that it's full plate versus leather, D10 HD versus D8, and spells versus no spells (or not many combat ones for an Arcane Trickster). A smart paladin never leaves the manor house, ever. You're not going to catch someone who can Dash twice, the rogue is certainly better at ranged combat than the paladin - stay in situations where you can always close with the rogue after they make their attack. After level 1, the paladin has access to healing, the rogue doesn't.

[longshotist]

these questions and scenarios, in order to be discussed reasonably, require two critical components of TTRPGs to be removed from the equation: dice rolls and player choices. Essentially they become a basic discussion about the various classes' special abilities.

[Ruslan]

Considering the Rogue can deliver Sneak, I'd say Rogue. Otherwise, Paladin would trump him. But Paladins still have a chance with 22AC.

On level 4, the Rogue can Sneak for 2d6, while the Paladin can Smite for 2d8. Admittedly, only 3 times per day, but 3 hits are sufficient to kill a 4th level Rogue, who isn't likely to have more than 35 hit points. (each hit deals base weapon damage + STR + 2d8, which is more than 12).
The Paladin has better AC, with heavy armor and shield, and base damage of 1d8+2 (longsword + Dueling) while Rogue has base d8.

On next levels, there's moar Sneak Attack on the Rogue's side, and Uncanny Dodge comes online, but on the the Paladin's side, there is moar Smite and a second attack.

In a straight up fight, clear advantage to Paladin. If Rogue gets Sneaky and tries to hide and kite the Paladin, could go either way.

[Rerem115]

This is incredibly dependent on player choice. Is the Rogue in the mansion and the Paladin outside, and does the Paladin charge in, looking to smite evil (They're a goddamn Paladin; I would assume they would, but who knows...)? Does the Rogue start within 5 feet of the Paladin (i.e., solidly within stabbing range)? Who wins initiative (Probably the Rogue, but bad rolls happen)? Does the Paladin find a corner and spam Create Food and Water until the Rogue starves or joins the fight? Does the Paladin fall asleep first and get shanked? Does the Rogue fall asleep first and get sliced? Hell, does one of them critically fail/roll incredibly poorly and just get dumpstered on by bad luck? In this scenario, there is no definitive winner.

[Rerem115]

And then there's the variance caused by spells. Who fails their save or suck first?

[Ruslan]

Ok, I ran some numbers with regards to hiding.

Rogue - Light armor. Expertise in Stealth and Perception.
Paladin - Heavy armor. Disadvantage on Stealth. No Expertise. Let's make him proficient in Perception to throw a bone.

1. Due to Heavy armor and disadvantage on Stealth, Paladin hiding from Rogue is in the realm of fiction.
2. Given typical numbers for Wis/Dex for Paladin and Rogue, on level 4 the Rogue has about 75-80% of successfully beating the Paladin's Passive Perception. On level 8, the Rogue only needs to not roll a '1'. On level 12, the Rogue autosucceeds against the Paladin's passive perception.

In summary, when hiding and kiting - clear advantage Rogue. If he makes good use of that Bonus Action to keep his distance, it will be difficult for the Paladin to corner the Rogue in a place where he can't escape.

[Shining Wrath]

And then there's the variance caused by spells. Who fails their save or suck first?

Rogue has no spells to speak of.

The more I think about this the more I think it comes down to Everquest PvP rules, where paladins were greatly feared because of just how epic Lay On Hands is in a dueling situation. In 5e, 5xLevel when a paladin gets typically 9 or 10 HP a level means the Rogue has to find a way to sustain 50% more DPR than the Paladin. When your core mechanic is "Hide and Sneak Attack" and the other guy has two class features (LoH and Cure Wounds) that permit recovery of HP it's an uphill battle.

I assume the rogue has hand crossbows and the paladin javelins. There aren't very many rooms large enough that the rogue isn't within normal javelin range.

So my proposal for the paladin is
1) Never chase a rogue you can't reach in your move action
2) Take out the familiar as soon as possible, which should be trivial
3) Never go outside

The paladin is the class more reliant on consumable resources (LoH and spell slots). The rogue can't afford to let the Paladin barricade himself in a closet and get a long rest. That puts the rogue in a position of trying to get one good ambush in and then take the paladin out in that same attack. I don't have much hope for the rogue going toe-to-toe.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The paladin turtles in the kitchen/storeroom, barricades it, and rations the remaining food until the other starves to death.

But the mansion has three pantries, five larders, two wine cellars, a giant liquor cabinet and snack bar in every drawing room, and three root cellars. The paladin can go about wrecking some of them but only the rogue can find all the secret doors. Also, the white wine and cheese are poisoned.

[Aembrosia]

But the mansion has three pantries, five larders, two wine cellars, a giant liquor cabinet and snack bar in every drawing room, and three root cellars. The paladin can go about wrecking some of them but only the rogue can find all the secret doors. Also, the white wine and cheese are poisoned.

P: Lets just stay here forever?
R: *nods*

[Foxhound438]

But the mansion has three pantries, five larders, two wine cellars, a giant liquor cabinet and snack bar in every drawing room, and three root cellars. The paladin can go about wrecking some of them but only the rogue can find all the secret doors. Also, the white wine and cheese are poisoned.

well first off, since when?

second off, it's a good thing for the paladin, then, since neither have any way of knowing that things are poisoned ahead of time, but paladin gets both purify food and drink and prot poison while the rogue doesn't.

It's a more reasonable assumption that the place has no food in it, since there was no mention of food from the OP. Another reasonable assumption is that they both have about the same con score, so they start getting exhaustion at the same time. This means that if they wait until day 8 3 if they have no water, they both have disad on attacks- more punishing to the rogue since that hard denies sneak attack, and disad on saves means eventually (sooner rather than later) the paladin can stick an ensnaring strike with a javelin, or command-> approach. Hiding until exhaustion is far worse for the rogue.

[Rerem115]

Rogue has no spells to speak of.

Ahem. Arcane Tricksters can learn any Wizard spell (up to 2nd level, in this case) of the Enchantment or Illusion schools. That includes such gems as Hold Person and Invisibility. Those could spell trouble for a Paladin who fails his rolls and/or a Rogue who knows what he's doing.

[Aembrosia]

well first off, since when?

Yet another innocent miscommunication due to the lack of a sarcastic font.

Its a joke man, come on. y so srs

[Maxilian]

IMHO it depends in a lot of things, mainly on how they play

At lvl 4 the Rogue can easily win, he/she could easily abuse his extra movement to stay at a certain range of his target (The pala hits hard, but he can't hit what he can't catch)

The rest of the level... i don't know

[JellyPooga]

Even forgoing my usual Rogue-love, I think I have to hand this one to the Rogue. I'm not crunching numbers on this one; there's too many variables, but when it comes to it the Rogue is really only vulnerable if the Pally slings a couple of spells his way and the Rogue botches his save(s) OR manages to catch the Rogue with his pants down (unlikely). Otherwise, the Rogue is an Arcane Trickster (because it's the optimal choice) and gems like Invisibility, Mirror Image and (most importantly) Fly, to name a couple off the tip of that iceberg, make this a bit of a no-brainer. Wood Elf Arcane Trickster with a longbow and free Sneak Attacks with his Warlock buddies Familiar means the Paladin can't do much but run away or miss...a lot, while the Rogue happily pings away at range. If the Paladin holes up in a small room, the Rogue can just leave, go recruit some allies down the local tavern (gotta love Persuasion Expertise) and come back in force, leaving the Paladin even further up the creek.

[Foxhound438]

Even forgoing my usual Rogue-love, I think I have to hand this one to the Rogue. I'm not crunching numbers on this one; there's too many variables, but when it comes to it the Rogue is really only vulnerable if the Pally slings a couple of spells his way and the Rogue botches his save(s) OR manages to catch the Rogue with his pants down (unlikely). Otherwise, the Rogue is an Arcane Trickster (because it's the optimal choice) and gems like Invisibility, Mirror Image and (most importantly) Fly, to name a couple off the tip of that iceberg, make this a bit of a no-brainer. Wood Elf Arcane Trickster with a longbow and free Sneak Attacks with his Warlock buddies Familiar means the Paladin can't do much but run away or miss...a lot, while the Rogue happily pings away at range. If the Paladin holes up in a small room, the Rogue can just leave, go recruit some allies down the local tavern (gotta love Persuasion Expertise) and come back in force, leaving the Paladin even further up the creek.

the highest level spells for this exercise for an AT would be 2nd level, so fly would have to be replaced with levitate. Paladin, on the other hand, gets dispel magic at 9th. Going into town for friends is also out of the question, as per the scenario set (neither can leave until the other is dead, due to some omnicient, omnipotent power's command over the universe in question.

[JellyPooga]

the highest level spells for this exercise for an AT would be 2nd level, so fly would have to be replaced with levitate. Paladin, on the other hand, gets dispel magic at 9th. Going into town for friends is also out of the question, as per the scenario set (neither can leave until the other is dead, due to some omnicient, omnipotent power's command over the universe in question.

Even so, Levitate almost completely nullifies the Paladin. Yes, he can try Dispel Magic, but that's a level 3 slot he's not using for Smite...

[Gignere]

I think depends on the skill of the players. Noobs hands down paladin no doubt. However experts who knows all the rules particularly around stealth, perception, surprise and spell distance I will have to give to the rogue, even if the paladin holes up in a small room it will just be a draw.

Not like the paladin can do anything to the rogue but if the paladin tries to play aggressive instead of turtling he will lose.

[Drackolus]

A vengeance paladin with sentinel would be tough for the rogue. Misty step gives the paladin some chase power. There is the fact that uncanny dodge gives the rogue the ability to potentially survive a nova. A greatsword paladin would likely need to land two hits and full smite to do good enough damage. And even with that, the paladin would have basically one chance before he just didn't have the resources.
Unless he takes observant, the paladin stands no chance againsta stealth. Even with hunter's mark, you must use an action to make an ability check.
But then, if the paladin gets both his channel divinity and hunter's mark on the rogue, he would more likely drop them in a single round. If he's a vhuman, he coild have gwm and sentinel at level 4. With the advantage, smite, d6 and +10 before the rogue has uncanny dodge, a one-shot becomes easy... IF it hits, which is 50/50. But, with sentinel, he'd get two attacks if he ever gets in melee range, and he can save a smite for a hit. Of course, no misty step at 4.
Mobile/swashbuckler does still trump sentinel, however.

[Sigreid]

It depends almost entirely on which one is successful making the other fight on his terms. I think the rogue has more scenarios where he comes out on top though. Assuming he's not an idiot.

[Foxhound438]

I think depends on the skill of the players. Noobs hands down paladin no doubt. However experts who knows all the rules particularly around stealth, perception, surprise and spell distance I will have to give to the rogue, even if the paladin holes up in a small room it will just be a draw.

Not like the paladin can do anything to the rogue but if the paladin tries to play aggressive instead of turtling he will lose.

the paladin has a lot of spells to counter rogue. It's not a hard give to the paladin case, but it's not as easy as "if I hide I win". Command is a hell of a spell.

[Reaver25]

I've seen the "Pally stays holed up for awhile with his back to the wall." My thoughts are, if I was the Rogue, I would walk to the doorway, throw a poison/alchemists fire/caltrops/ball bearings and then Dash away. Eventually, the Pally will have used enough spell slots in either healing or smites. I would kill him. :D

[djreynolds]

I've seen the "Pally stays holed up for awhile with his back to the wall." My thoughts are, if I was the Rogue, I would walk to the doorway, throw a poison/alchemists fire/caltrops/ball bearings and then Dash away. Eventually, the Pally will have used enough spell slots in either healing or smites. I would kill him. :D

Even an AT can just kite him and kill him without sneak attack, cunning action here is too powerful. Its 3rd level.

The paladin doesn't have misty step yet until 5th.

A swashbuckler with a bow, move, shoot, bonus action dash

Its the old mongoose versus the mountain.

[Greeniron]

why cant the paladin hold an action to shoot the rogue when they see them, I mean everyone seems to be assuming that the paladin is using melee. I think a half elf dex paladin would work pretty well here.

[djreynolds]

why cant the paladin hold an action to shoot the rogue when they see them, I mean everyone seems to be assuming that the paladin is using melee. I think a half elf dex paladin would work pretty well here.

You know you're right, this more about the player vs the player... then class vs class

[ClintACK]

Even an AT can just kite him and kill him without sneak attack, cunning action here is too powerful. Its 3rd level.

The paladin doesn't have misty step yet until 5th.

A swashbuckler with a bow, move, shoot, bonus action dash

Its the old mongoose versus the mountain.

Kiting is very effective against stupid AI. Harder against a human opponent.

Remember, the Paladin gets all martial weapons, so there's no reason he can't be shooting back with arrows of his own. And once he spends a single attack against the familiar, you're not getting sneak attack anymore.


I've seen the "Pally stays holed up for awhile with his back to the wall." My thoughts are, if I was the Rogue, I would walk to the doorway, throw a poison/alchemists fire/caltrops/ball bearings and then Dash away. Eventually, the Pally will have used enough spell slots in either healing or smites. I would kill him. :D

You're assuming you surprise the Paladin every time. (Or maybe you're assuming he was stupid enough to leave the door open, so you can throw the alchemist's fire from outside of his movement/melee range.)

The one time he doesn't fail his perception check, he's going to get to attack you with smiting badness. And then (having used your action to chuck a vial) you can either disengage and move, in which case he gets to hit you again next round, or dash and take the opportunity attack. Either way, that's probably game over, victory: Paladin.

The Rogue is going to win *most* perception-stealth challenges. But to beat the Paladin, he's got to win over and over and over as he whittles away at the Paladin's store of hit points and healing. That's not so clear.

And if the Paladin takes Alertness...

[djreynolds]

You're right, but its cunning action that is huge. And an arcane trickster at 3rd level could grab the shield spell for 2 uses in the fight.

I just want to stay out of melee with the paladin. being able to move, strike, and dash is big... also it gives you chances to hide and set up ambushes.

Very much depends on who is playing the paladin.

[JellyPooga]

Not like the paladin can do anything to the rogue but if the paladin tries to play aggressive instead of turtling he will lose.

This is the problem the Paladin has; to have a decent chance of winning, he has to turtle, but I suspect that even then the Rogue has enough tools to get around his defences and still come out on top. Between Expertise in a choice of skills and his Class features, the Rogue simply has more options, while the Paladin is largely restricted to melee combat to be effective.

The only way I see the Paladin winning, is if the Rogue does something stupid, or through luck, but I can't see the reverse being true; I can see the Paladin playing a perfect game and still losing to the varied tactics available to the Rogue.

I could be wrong, I'm prepared to admit that, knowing that I do have a bias in this contest and if someone runs the numbers and proves me to be so, I'll happily concede, but I just can't see our Pally winning this, even though I think the level breaks favour the Paladin more than the Rogue (IMO...the top tier being lvl.12 instead of lvl.13 is more in the Paladins favour, who benefits more from the extra ASI, whilst the Rogue is missing a dice of Sneak Attack and an Archetype feature, for example).

[Shining Wrath]

To really do this right we need to know what the combatants have in their packs - who says the rogue has alchemist's fire? How many? If the rogue has alchemist's fire, does the rogue also have 25 potions of Greater Healing?
How many javelins does the Paladin have, and do they break 50% of the time? Very important - can the Paladin block doors with furniture? Look at the manor, and then imagine your typical STR based Paladin moving heavy furniture to block doors that the rogue isn't strong enough to move. How much can the Paladin reduce the Rogue's options? If the Rogue can only approach from one direction, by shoving furniture out of the way and alerting the Pally he's coming, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

Modern warfare favors mobility over defence. Medieval warfare went the other way, hence castles. D&D PvP is neither.

Our basic strategy appears to be
Paladin: turtle and kill the familiar, then hope for a nova.
Rogue: hit and run and wear the Paladin down, using Arcane Trickster spells, Cunning Action, and Expertise in Stealth and similar stuff.

Paladins can hide too, however poorly. It takes exactly once that the Rogue enters the room, doesn't spot the Paladin behind the curtains, and crosses the room to the other side - only to find that door is blocked and the Paladin is busy blocking the door the Rogue entered through, for this thing to be over. A rogue that can't get away and has to engage in melee, toe to toe, with no Sneak Attack, is not going to enjoy the experience.

I suppose that it's likely to come down to the dice. The paladin has to get lucky once - for example, a critical hit on a Smite, or successfully hiding and getting a surprise round on the rogue. The rogue has to not be seriously unlucky (miss a Stealth check even with Invisibility and Expertise) many times.

I still vote for the Paladin.

[Citan]

Someone mentioned in the last thread (cleric vs wizard) that they'd like to see more of these threads, so I figured I'd make another one. I don't plan on making these every week or anything, but that discussion petered out so I thought I'd pick two new classes. I'll also add some qualifiers to make the discussion a little more focused, but feel free to speculate on alternate scenarios if you wish.

- Both the Paladin & the Rogue are aware of each other's presence and know they will be facing off tomorrow.

- They will be facing off in or around this manor, and are forbidden to leave until one is dead. Because a cosmic entity known only as DM refuses to render anything outside of the manor ground http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Jedi_Dade/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons%20%20pics/telecanthussmansion.jpg

(link for if someone can't load the image) http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Jedi_Dade/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons%20%20pics/telecanthussmansion.jpg

- They will have 3 rounds, in between which they instantly level up (First round, level 4. Second round, level 8. Third round, level 12). They cannot multiclass or change archetypes.

- To balance things out, the rogue was loaned his warlock friend's invisible familiar, which allows him to get sneak attack but will not grant him advantage (nor any of the other benefits you get from a familiar, since it's not his).
I think it all boils down to the two following questions:
- do Rogue have a way or place to reliably hide?
- is there any place in a room to outmove the Paladin by keeping away with Cunning Action?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then Rogue is sure to win.
If answer to both questions is no, Paladin is sure to win.
In other cases, I'd say we don't have enough information to say.

As for the actual answers for those questions...
Rogue could get Invisibility with Arcane Tricskter when he goes level 8 but it would be a waste of a turn since attacking breaks the effect. Darkness could be a good one but you also get it only at lvl 8, and you spend a whole turn setting up so I don't think it's a good move for a 3 rounds fight. (Otherwise, I think it could work well: cast Darkness in a corner of a big room, or one of the small rooms, attack from Range then hide as a bonus action).
Beyond that, I don't think there are things in/around the manor providing sufficient cover to block line of sight long enough to hide.
So I'd sway towards a "no" for first answer.

As for kiting, seems pretty clear to me that no room in the manor is big enough to allow Rogue to kite. Only by luring Paladin in the surrounding garden could he keep away while unleashing arrows.
But I really don't see any good reason for Paladin to follow.

In any case, I think Rogue would require either Arcane Trickster (for buff spells) or Swashbuckler (for extra Initiative) to get a chance, because surprise is out of the question.

Also, Paladin is not necessarily a STR-based one, or even if he is, he could still use javelins when out of melee reach. Or grab Spell Sniper with Ray of Frost / Eldricht Blast. He also gets great resilience through Aura of Protection (in case of AT), Lay on Hands, Shield of Faith... And nova capability with smite and smite spells.
He could also try to land a Compelled Duel (30 feet) or Command (60 feet) on the Rogue in the first turn, diminishing the chances of kiting.

Basically, as soon as Paladin manages to get Rogue into melee reach, chances of win increase drastically.
And even without that, my bet is on Paladin because he gets many more tools at his disposal to get the most of his turn.

Even so, Levitate almost completely nullifies the Paladin. Yes, he can try Dispel Magic, but that's a level 3 slot he's not using for Smite...
If he is using it because Mirror Image cast on first turn proves to be annoying, it can be a fair trade.
Otherwise, why would Levitate bother him that much? He could throw Javelins (STR), Arrows (DEX) or Eldricht Blast (Spell Sniper feat at level 8), so he can hit reliably enough and maybe break concentration, making Rogue come back to ground. Especially because Levitate does not allow you to move freely. So either you use it in a room to get lateral movement, meaning you are always in range of any thrown weapon. Or you use it outside, then you are stuck with going up or down, so your only chance is going up enough to get out of Paladin range while still being able to shoot it. So it wouldn't work against a DEX-based Devotion Paladin (using Sacred Weapon to offset disadvantage of distance) or a CHA-based Paladin (using Spell Sniper feat).

If the fight was not "3 rounds only", I could have a different views. But 1 round at lvl 4, 1 at level 8, 1 at level 12... Unless I misunderstood the meaning of "rounds" in OP words, I see very little chance of winning for Rogue because his spells use his action and it seems he need it to hide or improve his defenses.

[JellyPooga]

If the fight was not "3 rounds only", I could have a different views. But 1 round at lvl 4, 1 at level 8, 1 at level 12... Unless I misunderstood the meaning of "rounds" in OP words, I see very little chance of winning for Rogue because his spells use his action and it seems he need it to hide or improve his defenses.

I think the intent is a "best of 3 encounters, one at 4th, one at 8th and one at 12th", rather than literally 3 rounds of combat (which, I admit, was my initial interpretation!).

Thinking back on my comments, I'm inclined to agree with you about Levitate, although being able to negate the Paladins ability to Smite (no ranged smiting, no no no) is a serious handicap for the Pally, which the Rogue can take advantage of. I still think that even the Rogues relatively limited access to Wizard spellcasting trumps the Paladin list;

Grease will handily keep a Paladin prone with his likely quite poor Dex Save.

A lucky Sleep (emphasis on the "lucky") could end the fight almost before it starts (at least for the level 4 "round", in the higher level "rounds", the Rogue can't up-cast it high enough).

Web, likewise, could spell (heh) doom for a non-Dex Paladin; assuming he fails his Dex save, he still has to spend an action releasing himself.

Spider Climb[i] could act as a poor-mans [i]Fly in this scenario (because there's definitely ceilings!).

Phantasmal Force isn't going to do a heap of damage, but if the Paladin dumps Int (which is quite likely; they're more MAD than Rogues) and the Rogue is smart with his illusion (e.g. give the Paladin the impression he's fighting the Rogue himself or a summoned ally; appropriate actions in response to this illusion include attacking and even expending Smites, all the while "rationalising any illogical outcomes" as described by the spell), giving the Rogue the chance to go hide, snipe or what-have-you.

Compared to the Paladin, who is largely restricted to personal buffs that solely aid his melee capability and healing, the Rogue has a definite edge in the spellcasting stakes, despite having slower and lower access to higher level spells and less spells/day.

[EvilAnagram]

snip.

The most effective Rogue combo suggested so far was Levitate and Sneak Attack, which a Paladin can counter with Dispel Magic. I honestly don't see the rogue spells being the tipping point here.

[Citan]

I think the intent is a "best of 3 encounters, one at 4th, one at 8th and one at 12th", rather than literally 3 rounds of combat (which, I admit, was my initial interpretation!).

Thinking back on my comments, I'm inclined to agree with you about Levitate, although being able to negate the Paladins ability to Smite (no ranged smiting, no no no) is a serious handicap for the Pally, which the Rogue can take advantage of. I still think that even the Rogues relatively limited access to Wizard spellcasting trumps the Paladin list;

Grease will handily keep a Paladin prone with his likely quite poor Dex Save.

A lucky Sleep (emphasis on the "lucky") could end the fight almost before it starts (at least for the level 4 "round", in the higher level "rounds", the Rogue can't up-cast it high enough).

Web, likewise, could spell (heh) doom for a non-Dex Paladin; assuming he fails his Dex save, he still has to spend an action releasing himself.

Spider Climb[i] could act as a poor-mans [i]Fly in this scenario (because there's definitely ceilings!).

Phantasmal Force isn't going to do a heap of damage, but if the Paladin dumps Int (which is quite likely; they're more MAD than Rogues) and the Rogue is smart with his illusion (e.g. give the Paladin the impression he's fighting the Rogue himself or a summoned ally; appropriate actions in response to this illusion include attacking and even expending Smites, all the while "rationalising any illogical outcomes" as described by the spell), giving the Rogue the chance to go hide, snipe or what-have-you.

Compared to the Paladin, who is largely restricted to personal buffs that solely aid his melee capability and healing, the Rogue has a definite edge in the spellcasting stakes, despite having slower and lower access to higher level spells and less spells/day.
AAaaah, ok I understand better then (the whole "only one can leave because the other died" biaised me into believing we were always talking about the same character, chaining three rounds with instant level up, not the same characters that would be magically resurrected between fights -or fight ends as soon as one is unconscious).

Then I'd tend to agree with you for the first lvl 4 encounter, Rogue has more chances.
However, as soon as lvl 8 encounter starts, I'll stand my opinion:
Rogue would need to max DEX and INT (which he couldn't actually do with point-buy) to get a decent chance of affecting Paladin with saves (because in the meantime, Paladin got +CHA to all saves, in addition to Wisdom proficiency) OR take the Lucky feat instead of one ASI and get good roll before the fight starts.

And if you go the "try and catch me" way, as I said, you disable the risk of getting one-shot because of smite, but indoors you will be always within reach of Paladin's ranged attacks.
You can stack Mirror Image to get a pretty good defense while it lasts, but this and Levitate/Spider Climb means you blow your two slots right when the fight starts. Once Paladin realizes it will be hard to hit you, he just as to fall back and wait one minute. Getting full cover if he can, if necessary casting a buff such as Shield of Faith or Sanctuary (Devotion). Or Command you to "descend", "approach", or "drop" (especially fun if you were instead Levitating high in the sky XD, with your longbow now on the ground 50 feet below. "Come and get it", shouts the Paladin, with a nasty grinning face).
After that, a Devotion Paladin could just use his Sacred Weapon to ensure his ranged attacks hit (he could also use Branding Smite to prevent you to get Invisible -it is the one of two spells that works on ranged attacks). An Ancients Paladin could force you to move away from your secure place by using Moonbeam if you were outside, or use an Ensnaring Strike.
A Vengeance Paladin could try to Abjure you, making you unable to move, or just Misty Step to catch you.
All those spells will target Wisdom, Strength or Charisma, saves in which you probably have bad stats (because you needed to have high DEX and INT) nor proficiencies. So he has a very fair chance to land them. And if he took the Lucky feat you're toast (unless you took it also). Evasion won't help either.

It's even worse for the 3rd round: Paladin gets 3rd level spells, so he could Aura of Vitality himself if he needs to lessen damage while he runs towards you. A Vengeance Paladin could Haste himself so he can effectively reach you wherever you go unless you're in the sky. You in the other hand still don't have any third level spell, so no Fly, no Haste or whatever. Only a third 2nd level spell slot.

And all this time, you can use Uncanny Dodge to halve damage, but only on one attack. Great to use against a smite, but if you sustain a smite, it means you're in melee range, so it sucks. And otherwise, it just halves a normal damage, always good in the long run, but not enough to make the difference.

I also didn't mention Find Steed because the 10mn casting time makes it very difficult to use, but if, as suggested by others earlier, the Paladin managed for some reason to barricade a room so he gets a bit of time alone, he would then have a tremendous advantage over you. Basically, the Paladin could kite the Rogue (which is one of the most funny ideas when you think about it)!!

The only relevant winning strategies imo are the Phantasmal Force you suggest, or be lucky with the lucky feat to land a Hold Person on the Paladin for the two other rounds. In all other situations, you just have neither slots or reliability enough to really use offensive spells, and buffs spells can be countered with a minimum of intelligent thinking.

[Echelonaz]

What stops the Paladin from grabbing a torch setting the whole place on fire and standing at the exit. The idea that the Rogue can kite the Paladin seems like a byproduct of linear, video game style thinking. It assumes that the Paladin's only options are to either chase the Rogue or run away. What stops him from summoning his horse, and just riding the Rogue down?

Even just thinking purely in mechanics, doesn't Compelled Duel, Command, Misty Step all prevent the Rogue from fleeing? Seems like it gets even worse when you start to look at the Oaths. Doesn't Hold Person just destroy a Rogue, doesn't Ensnaring Strike? Hunter's Mark seems strong too.

I just think that the Paladin has an advantage in AC, HP, Attacks, Damage, Saves, Healing while the Rogue has range and mobility. It also feels like the Rogue has to press the action, or else the Paladin can just start preparing the field to his liking, add lights, remove escape routes. He can starve the Rogue out, with Create Food and Water, and as soon as exhaustion sets in, than the Rogue is finished.

[Ghost Nappa]

This one is harder than Wizard Vs. Cleric. In that fight, I argued that mobility, range, and turn denial give Wizard the advantage.

For the purposes of this fight, the OP specifically gave an indoor environment.

The Rogue wants to kite and the Paladin wants a prolonged fight. If I was the Paladin, I would find a small room with only one entrance and force the Rogue to approach that way, than trap them in with me.

The Rogue wants the opposite, because they have more at-will abilities than resource dependent abilities. Pally wants to have 1 fight and be done with it.

Not to mention that the different sub-classes of Paladin and Rogue are more distinct from each other than the Wizard's schools were (and none of the Cleric's domains were chosen because of spells).

I think Paladin would want Oath of Vengeance, Oath of the Crown, or Oathbreaker. Rogue would want Assassin, Arcane Trickster, or Swashbuckler.

Overall, I think this one isn't obvious enough for me to favor a camp. I'll call it a tie on the grounds that I haven't heard an argument that has convinced me yet.

[JellyPooga]

The Rogue wants to kite and the Paladin wants a prolonged fight. If I was the Paladin, I would find a small room with only one entrance and force the Rogue to approach that way, than trap them in with me.

As a Rogue advocate on this one, this is exactly the type of response a smart Rogue would A) expect and B) plan for. Each party has 24 hours to prepare; if I was the Rogue, I might see about spending a lot of that time buying all the trap-making tools, equipment and supplies, pre-made traps and anything else I thought might come in handy should the Paladin decide to hole up and wait for me.

Let him wait. I'll rig the rest of the house full of traps worse then "Home Alone" (all Rogues are proficient in Thieves Tools, at the very least...why not let them use them?). When I'm done (or finally get bored of that exercise), a Paladin is easy to bait. They might be smart (though I wouldn't count on it), but they get touchy about their faith; an Intimidate, Deception or Persuasion check or two and I'd call shananigans if that Pally stay holed up. Once he's out, the Rogue can lead him on a merry dance through the minefield the mansion has now become.


Overall, I think this one isn't obvious enough for me to favor a camp. I'll call it a tie on the grounds that I haven't heard an argument that has convinced me yet.

I would tend to agree with you; this is much harder to call. I'm only really advocating Rogues to explore the options and see of either camp can come up with something conclusive! I think this contest would largely come down to the players in question and a hefty dose of luck. You could repeat this exercise a half-dozen times and come out with different results each time.

[Reaver25]

As a Rogue advocate on this one, this is exactly the type of response a smart Rogue would A) expect and B) plan for. Each party has 24 hours to prepare; if I was the Rogue, I might see about spending a lot of that time buying all the trap-making tools, equipment and supplies, pre-made traps and anything else I thought might come in handy should the Paladin decide to hole up and wait for me.

Let him wait. I'll rig the rest of the house full of traps worse then "Home Alone" (all Rogues are proficient in Thieves Tools, at the very least...why not let them use them?). When I'm done (or finally get bored of that exercise), a Paladin is easy to bait. They might be smart (though I wouldn't count on it), but they get touchy about their faith; an Intimidate, Deception or Persuasion check or two and I'd call shananigans if that Pally stay holed up. Once he's out, the Rogue can lead him on a merry dance through the minefield the mansion has now become. (snipped)

This. This is what my argument above was all about. If I knew I was going to be fighting a Paladin, I would get a LOT of stuff ready for all kinds of circumstances. Paladin holed up? Trap the house. Paladin rushes after me? I move 3x faster than him and keep kiting. Stops chasing after me and heals? I start over. I have no resources that could be completely expended. The Paladin only has so many healing/smiting slots. And any Dex-based Paladin would lose a fight with me in melee anyhow. :D

[ClintACK]

Can someone describe in detail how the Rogue would kite the Paladin -- I'm having trouble picturing it exactly. It seems like people are imagining the Rogue attacking, disengaging, and triple-moving, and possibly hiding as well, which is at least two too many actions for a single turn.


--- Initiative. Assume the Rogue has an 18 Dex, the Paladin has a 12 Dex, and neither has Alertness. A +3 advantage to the Rogue gives a 64% chance that the Rogue wins initiative.

--- Perception vs. Stealth. Rogue is still 18 Dex and has expertise in Stealth. Paladin has a 12 Wisdom and proficiency in Perception. At level 4 that's a +5 advantage to the Rogue, giving a 72% chance of the Rogue winning (69.5% chance of hiding the first time, 74.5% chance of staying hidden -- for the "tie roll" cases).

--- Wisdom Save vs Command. Say Rogue has 12 Wis and Pal has 14 Cha. That's +2 vs DC 12. 55% chance to succeed.

--- Paladin's chance to hit Rogue. Say +6 vs AC 16. 55% chance to succeed. 80% chance with Advantage (say, if he's a Vengeance Paladin).

Case 1: Paladin wins initiative -- 36%

So, the Paladin starts us off with a smite attack for about half of the Rogue's hps. If the Rogue wants to flee, he needs to use his cunning action bonus to disengage, or risk getting killed by a lucky smiting opportunity attack. That means he can only move by his move+dash. Assuming the Paladin has the same base movement as the Rogue, he can do the same on his turn (move+dash) and leave the Rogue with exactly the same choice -- disengage, or not travel fast enough to get away.

1a: Rogue does move-attack-dash. Paladin gets OA.
1b: Rogue does disengage-move-attack. Paladin can move-attack.
1c: Rogue does disengage-move-dash. Above.

Technically, this (1c) is a draw (unless the Rogue accidentally runs into a dead end) -- but with only the Rogue wounded, a game in which he runs away forever isn't hard for the judges to call. RAW, I suppose you'd end up making Constitution checks -- not exactly the Rogue's forte -- per Chasing rules. So eventually the Paladin would catch the cowardly Rogue and finish him off.

Conclusion: If the Paladin wins initiative, or can otherwise initiate melee combat, he probably wins.

Secondary Conclusion: if the Paladin has Alertness, and the Rogue doesn't, the Paladin's odds just got really, really good. Especially if he pumps his dex (and goes Rapier + Dueling). But then he's specifically a Rogue-hunting-Paladin-build. And that's silly.

Case 2: Rogue wins initiative -- 64%

2a: Rogue does move-dash-hide. (Planning to sneak attack the Paladin from hiding and keep moving and hiding.) (69.5% chance the Rogue is hidden)

Paladin moves in the direction he saw the Rogue go, then readies an action to cast Command: Approach if he sees the Rogue.

2a1: Rogue stealthily moves away. (51% chance the Rogue is still hidden) -- 50-50 the Rogue's been spotted in just two contests...
2a2: Rogue attacks -- he gets a sneak attack, Paladin casts his spell.

If the Paladin gets his Command off, and the Rogue fails, it puts them at the start of Case 1 -- the Rogue has approached to melee range and it's the Paladin's turn.

If the Paladin doesn't get his spell off, or the Rogue makes his save, they're back to the start of Case 2.

In the case of the Rogue making his save, the Paladin is down a 1st level spell slot. One of only three. And it's one attack he can't smite with.

2b: Rogue does move-dash-dash.

This depends *a lot* on where in the map they start. If they start facing each other across the center of M3, then the Rogue can't actually get out of the room with a triple move, if I'm interpreting the dotted lines correctly. But there are other starting points where the Rogue could run out of sight and through somewhere with two different exits -- potentially "getting away".

Maybe he gets away in this scenario, but then what? If he spends the time necessary to craft a trap then 1) the Paladin *will* find him if he spends any effort looking and 2) the Rogue won't be immediately prepared to fight. If he heads back to try to shoot an arrow at the Paladin and flee... I'm not seeing how that plays out. The weird chunkiness of turn-based combat mean that success requires the Rogue to still have enough movement left *after* finding the Paladin and attacking. If he enters the Paladin's room with too little movement left, the Paladin will catch him and melee attack him.

TL;DR: I'm not seeing "Kite him" as an insta-win button, any more than "Smite him" is.

Quick unrelated afterthought: How would "Detect Evil and Good" work here? Could the Paladin use it to detect the Rogue's invisible borrowed familiar, and kill it? It would cost two actions total, but it would make it much harder for the Rogue to get any sneak attacks. Not sure it's worth it.

[TheBirba]

In a vacuum, I'd say the Rogue. If played correctly the Paladin won't be able to get in melee once.

[MasterMercury]

Can someone describe in detail how the Rogue would kite the Paladin -- I'm having trouble picturing it exactly. It seems like people are imagining the Rogue attacking, disengaging, and triple-moving, and possibly hiding as well, which is at least two too many actions for a single turn.


(Slow clap)
This is very comprehensive, and layed out quite nicely. Probably the best argument I've seen. Well Done

I think the Kiting idea is that the rogue is using ranged weapons, so he can attack, move, dash/hide. I am on the Paladin side though, a rogue can't keep that up forever. Eventually, the paladin will smite him once or twice.


Question though. If I was the rogue, and I attack, dash, and then dash again into a closet and close the door behind me, am I not hiding? Cause the pally won't know where I am.

Also, I love these threads. It's PvP, class v class, numbers v numbers. This is pretty good. And also a lot better than Cleric v Wizard.

[Gignere]

I think the Kiting idea is that the rogue is using ranged weapons, so he can attack, move, dash/hide. I am on the Paladin side though, a rogue can't keep that up forever. Eventually, the paladin will smite him once or twice.

Question though. If I was the rogue, and I attack, dash, and then dash again into a closet and close the door behind me, am I not hiding? Cause the pally won't know where I am.

If you move out of LoS the paladin wouldn't know where you are but if he looks for you it will be easy for him to find you but by the time he catches up you can probably use your next turn's action to hide anyway.

The key is what is the rule for dropping out of combat because if there is some sort of rule to drop out of combat I have to give this to the rogue. Like if the rogue or paladin doesn't attack one another for 5 rounds are they consider OoC. Because a rogue with sharpshooter with places to hide can just keep using surprise round and the one free action to kite the paladin. If this was an assassin basically crit every time he hits too.

However, if combat doesn't reset I think it is potentially a toss up, as long as the paladin turtles.

[MasterMercury]

That's fair. IS there a rule for dropping out of combat? Like, anywhere? Is that a thing?

[Echelonaz]

The Paladin cannot be kited. He literally has multiple abilities that prevent that. I feels like people have not read command or compelled duel, or ensnaring strike, Misty Step, Hunter's Mark etc.. But even without those abilities it feels highly unlikely the Rogue could actually kite the Paladin. Paladins also have ranged attacks, but also have a higher AC and more HP. Trading an arrow for a Javelin is not favorable, the Rogue will eventually just lose. If melee combat happens, than the Rogue will die. If the Rogue is ever forced into any of the edges of the map the Rogue will die. If the Rogue is ever spotted moving into position, within 60 feet, the Rogue will just die. If the Rogue loses initiative, the Rogue will just die. People seem to be assuming that the Rogue will always know the Paladin's position, what happens when the Paladin walks around the corner. Rogues dont have X-ray vision, now imagine attempting to move around that map, blind, but if you get too close without enough remaining movement, that you just die. Its like playing battleship, but you have a tug boat, and they have an aircraft carrier. Yes, it is alot harder for them to hit you, but you only really get one chance.

[KenMasters]

Well I wont do full explanation by the lvls but my vote goes to the rogue as if his kite is balanced towards not needing to be facing the enemy to attack him but rather to use all opportunities to reduce damage while doing his job.

Rogue has sneak attack for extra damage, not even needed per say but if used even at early lvls is a lot of pain on anyone.

Yes paladin can heal himself but that will take him an action to do, therefore foregoing his chance to actually hit and drop the hp of the rogue, granting him the advantage of extra attacks.

He can summon a horse? ok drop caltrops on the path if you are even a thief you have use an item for a bonus action, move and attack, even ready your action for when said horse is going towards you and drop the caltrop at the right area to stop him on his path, this use an item "bonus action" would allow him to keep his hp sustained starting lvl 2 because its just a bonus action on regular potions(1d8), and not loosing attacks per turn.

at lvl 5 you can halve damage even if it's one time(reaction) its a huge bonus, u decide when to use it which is best because you can halve a crit or when u see someone using extra dice by spending spell slots for damage.

now all this goes to think mostly that everyone will be doing most attacks on their turn but if per say the rogue wanted to get more attacks per round as per use more than once the sneak attack, he could do the trick, he can get his feat to have 2 battlemaster maneuvers available:
Feinting attack = advantage mostly for sneak attack trigger no need to hide or friends to engage, its a bonus action.
Disarming attack= Well u are ranged and he not only needs to be close but also have his weapon to attack u then make him waste turns.

So really rogue because of his mobility and ranged attacks, great reactions and bonus damage plus being able to adapt to the opponent, has the best chance vs paladin. Yeah hiding is great, but come on... if you really need advantage for your hunger of getting sneak attack, just be creative about it. you can even try to drop sand in the eyes of the paladin, thief can play dirty, but a paladin if he cares about honor won't.

If paladin doesnt drop a succesful hold person, then he gots no chance, but anything being incapacitated is pretty much dead then again were are talking here about of opponents that everyone has his actions on the rounds.

Hope it helps.

[JellyPooga]

I feels like people have not read command or compelled duel, or ensnaring strike, Misty Step, Hunter's Mark etc..

The Paladins spellcasting is a great buff for the Paladin, but I wouldn't count on any of it being a direct "win button". About the only two spells on the Paladin list that he can use aggressively are Command and Compelled Duel. The former is limited in scope, even assuming it goes off (more on that later); Command is a bad spell in a duel like this because it basically trades your action for the action of your opponent. In a team game, this can be great, because a team has more than just your one action, but here? Not so much. You're pretty much wasting a spell slot to make both of you waste a turn. As for Compelled Duel...One, it's got to stick (again, see later). Two, what does it do? Gives the Rogue Disadvantage to attack anyone but you? Whoop de doo. You're the only one he's attacking anyway. Three, it forces him to make a Wis Save to move more than 30ft away; all he's got to do is pass one Wis save and run like the devil's chasing him and the spell will likely end.

I will grant that there are others available based on the specific Oath the Paladin has taken (e.g. Hold Person), but as far as I can tell, they all rely on one thing...the Rogue having a poor Wis save. Now, I accept that I could be shouted down on this one, due to the existence of Slippery Mind, but why doesn't the Rogue have A) a decent Wisdom and B) Wis Save proficiency from Resilient? Your average Rogue wants a decent Wis for Perception, I've yet to build a Rogue with lower than 14. The Rogue has little to spend his Feats on but improving his defences anyway and most of the things that screw over a Rogue are Wis based; a prudent Rogue knows that Wis Save proficiency is a literal lifesaver, whether or not he's dueling a Paladin in some mansion somewhere.


...the Rogue will eventually just lose...the Rogue will die...the Rogue will die...the Rogue will just die...the Rogue will just die...you just die.

You seem to be confusing the 5ed Rogue with a Basic D&D 1st level Wizard. Let's look at some numbers. I think we can assume the Rogue has Con 14 (what professional adventurer doesn't?);

4th level Rogue HP = 8+(3x5)+(4x2) = 31
8th level Rogue HP = 8+(7x5)+(8x2) = 59
12th level Rogue HP = 8+(11x5)+(12x2) = 87

Now I'm not saying that the Paladin can't dole out these numbers in damage in a single round; at the relevant levels, he very much can, but he needs a little luck and he needs to be in melee (and at 4th, he needs an extra attack from somewhere; which either means TWF, so no shield or bonus action spells on his "alpha strike" round, or it locks him into taking PAM). If the Rogue can, in any way, keep the combat at range, then the Pally is looking at what? 1d6+3 damage from a javelin? 1d8+1, maaaaybe 1d8+2 from a bow? The alternative is to go Dexadin and let your AC or speed suffer...

Further, let's look at the Feats the Rogue is picking up. Assuming we aren't building specifically to win this encounter, the Rogue is looking at taking the likes of Resilient (Wis or Con), Mobility, Skulker, Alert, Lucky, Sharpshooter and Crossbow Master. Barring the last two, whose sole purpose is a combat buff and only really serve to end the fight quicker (which isn't really that much of a concern for the Rogue in this scenario; either he'll die in short order or win eventually), these "generic Rogue" Feats all largely counter one or more of your arguments as to why the Rogue should "just die"...Lucky and Resilient both stop spells from ruining his day, Alert means you certainly aren't winning initiative (ok, so it's not "certain", but it's a darned long shot for the Pally to win), Skulker means even if the Rogue fluffs his attack, the Paladin still can't find him and Mobility means, well, Mobility makes kiting work. Pick your poison.

edit: @ OP; can we get a height on the ceiling of room M3...I assume the other rooms are pretty standard height ceilings, but M3 looks like it might be a bit more...spacious. There are options available to someone that can act in three-dimensions...

[rollingForInit]

Rogue has no spells to speak of.



Arcane Trickster could learn 1 Wizard spell from any school, which could be Shield. That's an extremely strong boost to the Rogue's defenses. Depending on the Paladin's race, Sleep could also be extremely potent as a follow up on the second round, if the paladin has taken damage. A no-save unconscious is very severe. Of course, if the Paladin is an elf or half-elf, it doesn't work.

[Gignere]

Can someone describe in detail how the Rogue would kite the Paladin -- I'm having trouble picturing it exactly. It seems like people are imagining the Rogue attacking, disengaging, and triple-moving, and possibly hiding as well, which is at least two too many actions for a single turn.


--- Initiative. Assume the Rogue has an 18 Dex, the Paladin has a 12 Dex, and neither has Alertness. A +3 advantage to the Rogue gives a 64% chance that the Rogue wins initiative.

--- Perception vs. Stealth. Rogue is still 18 Dex and has expertise in Stealth. Paladin has a 12 Wisdom and proficiency in Perception. At level 4 that's a +5 advantage to the Rogue, giving a 72% chance of the Rogue winning (69.5% chance of hiding the first time, 74.5% chance of staying hidden -- for the "tie roll" cases).

--- Wisdom Save vs Command. Say Rogue has 12 Wis and Pal has 14 Cha. That's +2 vs DC 12. 55% chance to succeed.

--- Paladin's chance to hit Rogue. Say +6 vs AC 16. 55% chance to succeed. 80% chance with Advantage (say, if he's a Vengeance Paladin).

Case 1: Paladin wins initiative -- 36%

So, the Paladin starts us off with a smite attack for about half of the Rogue's hps. If the Rogue wants to flee, he needs to use his cunning action bonus to disengage, or risk getting killed by a lucky smiting opportunity attack. That means he can only move by his move+dash. Assuming the Paladin has the same base movement as the Rogue, he can do the same on his turn (move+dash) and leave the Rogue with exactly the same choice -- disengage, or not travel fast enough to get away.

1a: Rogue does move-attack-dash. Paladin gets OA.
1b: Rogue does disengage-move-attack. Paladin can move-attack.
1c: Rogue does disengage-move-dash. Above.

Technically, this (1c) is a draw (unless the Rogue accidentally runs into a dead end) -- but with only the Rogue wounded, a game in which he runs away forever isn't hard for the judges to call. RAW, I suppose you'd end up making Constitution checks -- not exactly the Rogue's forte -- per Chasing rules. So eventually the Paladin would catch the cowardly Rogue and finish him off.

Conclusion: If the Paladin wins initiative, or can otherwise initiate melee combat, he probably wins.

Secondary Conclusion: if the Paladin has Alertness, and the Rogue doesn't, the Paladin's odds just got really, really good. Especially if he pumps his dex (and goes Rapier + Dueling). But then he's specifically a Rogue-hunting-Paladin-build. And that's silly.

Case 2: Rogue wins initiative -- 64%

2a: Rogue does move-dash-hide. (Planning to sneak attack the Paladin from hiding and keep moving and hiding.) (69.5% chance the Rogue is hidden)

Paladin moves in the direction he saw the Rogue go, then readies an action to cast Command: Approach if he sees the Rogue.

2a1: Rogue stealthily moves away. (51% chance the Rogue is still hidden) -- 50-50 the Rogue's been spotted in just two contests...
2a2: Rogue attacks -- he gets a sneak attack, Paladin casts his spell.

If the Paladin gets his Command off, and the Rogue fails, it puts them at the start of Case 1 -- the Rogue has approached to melee range and it's the Paladin's turn.

If the Paladin doesn't get his spell off, or the Rogue makes his save, they're back to the start of Case 2.

In the case of the Rogue making his save, the Paladin is down a 1st level spell slot. One of only three. And it's one attack he can't smite with.

2b: Rogue does move-dash-dash.

This depends *a lot* on where in the map they start. If they start facing each other across the center of M3, then the Rogue can't actually get out of the room with a triple move, if I'm interpreting the dotted lines correctly. But there are other starting points where the Rogue could run out of sight and through somewhere with two different exits -- potentially "getting away".

Maybe he gets away in this scenario, but then what? If he spends the time necessary to craft a trap then 1) the Paladin *will* find him if he spends any effort looking and 2) the Rogue won't be immediately prepared to fight. If he heads back to try to shoot an arrow at the Paladin and flee... I'm not seeing how that plays out. The weird chunkiness of turn-based combat mean that success requires the Rogue to still have enough movement left *after* finding the Paladin and attacking. If he enters the Paladin's room with too little movement left, the Paladin will catch him and melee attack him.

TL;DR: I'm not seeing "Kite him" as an insta-win button, any more than "Smite him" is.

Quick unrelated afterthought: How would "Detect Evil and Good" work here? Could the Paladin use it to detect the Rogue's invisible borrowed familiar, and kill it? It would cost two actions total, but it would make it much harder for the Rogue to get any sneak attacks. Not sure it's worth it.


I never seen any optimized builds or any suggested builds of paladins other than dexadins with dex higher than 10. Yes if they start in melee the battle is more favorable to the paladin. Command is only 60 feet, the basic rogue can shoot from 80 feet with short bow not even accounting for racial or sharpshooter, which is a very common feat for general optimized rogues to pick up.

Let's assume they both start at opposite ends of the map, north and south, combat doesn't start until one discovers the other just like a regular game. Rogue stealths with expertise, at any level after lvl 10 there is basically no chance for the paladin to find the rogue even with perception proficiency. So the rogue will have surprise round on paladin. If the rogue can drop combat he can repeat surprise round ad infinitum. Of course this is home brewing since there isn't any official rules to drop out of combat.

If they start in melee range and rogue wins initiative rogue will just bonus action disengage, move, hide. The paladin will need to move, then spend his action to use perception to find rogue, once again after level 10 this is basically almost impossible for the paladin to do so. Now even if the paladin was standing right next to the rogue he gets no OA on the rogue because you have to see the target in order to OA, this is RAW. So rogue just move, dash,(most likely out of LoS) hide. Now paladin has choice of chasing or spending an action to use perception or dashing, maybe blow a misty step. Once again if paladin makes a mistake on where he moves basically not ending right up next to the rogue. The rogue wins it, because now the kiting can begin. Note this does not take into account if the rogue is a wood elf, or has mobility, if he has either it becomes much easier.

For a rogue PvP build I would most like take, mobility, alert, and sharpshooter, still leaves 2 or 3 ASIs for maxing out dex. Probably would either go assassin or arcane trickster. If the rogue can get a surprise round with assassin that can likely end the fight in two turns. Auto crit surprise round, followed by advantage and sneak attack in second round.

However, this is not a guarantee win because paladin can turtle and force the rogue to go to him. It all comes down to player decisions, where they start, their exact builds, but I think I will still give the edge to the rogue, just because it takes an action to use perception to find rogue that he uses a bonus action to hide.

Also in game I have fought a rogue as an encounter and even a single rogue was able to kite our group badly and actually ran off and we couldn't finish him. This was a whole party 4 on 1 in a friggin dungeon, so chances of a single paladin cornering a rogue I would say is pretty low even in a house. As long as the rogue doesn't start 5 feet from the paladin, the rogue can kite the paladin all day.

[JellyPooga]

However, this is not a guarantee win because paladin can turtle and force the rogue to go to him.

I don't see how the Paladin can win by "turtling" up and waiting for the Rogue. IF the Paladin is adamant that he's not moving from his nicely defended spot, the Rogue can simply ignore him while he goes and rigs the rest of the mansion into a deathtrap for the Paladin. What incentive does the Rogue have to attack the Paladin on his own terms, when he can be spending that time biasing the encounter in his favour? If the Paladin wants to harry the Rogue to disallow him from deathtrapping the place, then he's not turtling and the advantage goes to the more maneuverable Rogue again. Once the mansion is a deathtrap, the Paladin has the option of either staying put and doing nothing (which, as a judge, I'd count as a concession; you've got to be "in it to win it", so to speak), or wandering out into an environment that whilst it might not kill him, will be a pain in the butt and favour the Rogue.

Aside from getting lucky, the Paladin doesn't really have the tools to deal with a Rogue in a 1-on-1 duel, unless he builds specifically for it, whilst even the most generically built Rogue has a decent shot at beating your average Paladin. If Paladins are "rock", then Rogues are "scissors", at least in 1-on-1. In a team-fight, it's a bit different; Paladins, like Clerics, are solid team players, while Rogues excel solo (which isn't to say they don't like teaming up; they just have better solo ability than most other Classes).

[Citan]

This. This is what my argument above was all about. If I knew I was going to be fighting a Paladin, I would get a LOT of stuff ready for all kinds of circumstances. Paladin holed up? Trap the house. Paladin rushes after me? I move 3x faster than him and keep kiting. Stops chasing after me and heals? I start over. I have no resources that could be completely expended. The Paladin only has so many healing/smiting slots. And any Dex-based Paladin would lose a fight with me in melee anyhow. :D
That's a nice argument, but it suppose that 1) you have access to the house before the fight (and in that case Paladin could just follow you to watch you put traps, or just spend time beforehand to disarm them) and 2) when the encounter start you can choose a location (= you are not forced to start together in the same room).

The Paladin cannot be kited. He literally has multiple abilities that prevent that. I feels like people have not read command or compelled duel, or ensnaring strike, Misty Step, Hunter's Mark etc.. But even without those abilities it feels highly unlikely the Rogue could actually kite the Paladin. Paladins also have ranged attacks, but also have a higher AC and more HP. Trading an arrow for a Javelin is not favorable, the Rogue will eventually just lose. If melee combat happens, than the Rogue will die. If the Rogue is ever forced into any of the edges of the map the Rogue will die. If the Rogue is ever spotted moving into position, within 60 feet, the Rogue will just die. If the Rogue loses initiative, the Rogue will just die. People seem to be assuming that the Rogue will always know the Paladin's position, what happens when the Paladin walks around the corner. Rogues dont have X-ray vision, now imagine attempting to move around that map, blind, but if you get too close without enough remaining movement, that you just die. Its like playing battleship, but you have a tug boat, and they have an aircraft carrier. Yes, it is alot harder for them to hit you, but you only really get one chance.
Agreed with this (although I wouldn't be soo categoric ^^), with randomness factors though being the starting location of each and the initiative rolls.


He can summon a horse? ok drop caltrops on the path if you are even a thief you have use an item for a bonus action, move and attack, even ready your action for when said horse is going towards you and drop the caltrop at the right area to stop him on his path, this use an item "bonus action" would allow him to keep his hp sustained starting lvl 2 because its just a bonus action on regular potions(1d8), and not loosing attacks per turn.
While I think the Find Steed is actually one of the less probable tactics of Paladin because of the huge casting time, I find your counter even less probable. With 60 feet per move you would need to cover a large area (so very large amount) to really block, otherwise the mount may still find a way to jump over or go around. Paladin could otherwise cast Bless to help the mount with DEX saves.

Even worse with a Vengeance Paladin for the last encounter, because he would probably cast Haste which would also affect the horse.
And if you manage to really block the way, it means you probably also blocked yourself, so you just have to hope you can kill him from where you stand. ;)

[Citan]

I never seen any optimized builds or any suggested builds of paladins other than dexadins with dex higher than 10. Yes if they start in melee the battle is more favorable to the paladin. Command is only 60 feet, the basic rogue can shoot from 80 feet with short bow not even accounting for racial or sharpshooter, which is a very common feat for general optimized rogues to pick up.

Let's assume they both start at opposite ends of the map, north and south, combat doesn't start until one discovers the other just like a regular game. Rogue stealths with expertise, at any level after lvl 10 there is basically no chance for the paladin to find the rogue even with perception proficiency. So the rogue will have surprise round on paladin. If the rogue can drop combat he can repeat surprise round ad infinitum. Of course this is home brewing since there isn't any official rules to drop out of combat.

If they start in melee range and rogue wins initiative rogue will just bonus action disengage, move, hide. The paladin will need to move, then spend his action to use perception to find rogue, once again after level 10 this is basically almost impossible for the paladin to do so. Now even if the paladin was standing right next to the rogue he gets no OA on the rogue because you have to see the target in order to OA, this is RAW. So rogue just move, dash,(most likely out of LoS) hide. Now paladin has choice of chasing or spending an action to use perception or dashing, maybe blow a misty step. Once again if paladin makes a mistake on where he moves basically not ending right up next to the rogue. The rogue wins it, because now the kiting can begin. Note this does not take into account if the rogue is a wood elf, or has mobility, if he has either it becomes much easier.

For a rogue PvP build I would most like take, mobility, alert, and sharpshooter, still leaves 2 or 3 ASIs for maxing out dex. Probably would either go assassin or arcane trickster. If the rogue can get a surprise round with assassin that can likely end the fight in two turns. Auto crit surprise round, followed by advantage and sneak attack in second round.

However, this is not a guarantee win because paladin can turtle and force the rogue to go to him. It all comes down to player decisions, where they start, their exact builds, but I think I will still give the edge to the rogue, just because it takes an action to use perception to find rogue that he uses a bonus action to hide.

Also in game I have fought a rogue as an encounter and even a single rogue was able to kite our group badly and actually ran off and we couldn't finish him. This was a whole party 4 on 1 in a friggin dungeon, so chances of a single paladin cornering a rogue I would say is pretty low even in a house. As long as the rogue doesn't start 5 feet from the paladin, the rogue can kite the paladin all day.
Interesting post, but you make way too many assumptions to really build a decisive argument
- start at distant ends or Rogue wins initiative
- speaking only of third encounter (lvl 12) since you speak constantly about taking so many feats and Reliable Talent.
- Paladins acts as a moron and is willing to play hide-and-seek with Rogue.

Don't forget the important thing: THERE IS NO TIME LIMIT. No pressure. In fact, as said by others in previous posts, time would largely play in favor of Paladin since he can create what's needed to sustain him.
So he has no good reason to expose himself if the Rogue is too well-hidden.

[JellyPooga]

That's a nice argument, but it suppose that 1) you have access to the house before the fight (and in that case Paladin could just follow you to watch you put traps, or just spend time beforehand to disarm them) and 2) when the encounter start you can choose a location (= you are not forced to start together in the same room.

Trapping the house isn't predicated on having access to the house beforhand, but rather the idea that time is on the Paladins side due to being able to "turtle" in a favourable location for him.

If the Paladin is staying put, the Rogue has free rein on the rest of the mansion; if he brought supplies (including rations), he's got all the time in the world to lay traps. We're not talking about digging pits and setting up rolling boulders here; bear-traps, difficult terrain from cluttering floor space, furniture rigged to fall, tripwires...all of which slow the Paladin down, allowing the Rogue to take the advantage.

If the Paladin doesn't want to come out, the Rogue can literally stand outside the door taunting him. If all the Paladin is doing is waiting for the Rogue to come to him, I count that as the Paladin losing by default; he's refusing to fight. On the flipside, the Rogue can very likely nettle the Paladin both verbally and physically; he's actively encouraging the Paladin to come and get him, while the Paladin is sitting there saying "no".

So the Paladin either loses by default because he can't force the Rogue to fight on his terms or he loses to the Rogues superior mobility and (potentially) preparation.

[Socratov]

Sorry, gotta give it to the rogue for one reason only:

PvP is often hinged on teh following principle: to dela damage you need to be able to hit, to hit you need to get someone in view or the ability to target them.

Hiding and mobility (the ways to make sure you cannot be targeted) are two fortes of the rogue. Sure the paladin has the ability to hit like a truck, but to do that you need to hit first. The rogue will outperforn the paladin on both playing tag and hide-and-seek and what' smore, it's a playstyle that's rewarding for the rogue. The paladin, meanwhile, will have to spend a lot of HP resources to reach the rogue and squat him like a fly.

Find steed? Well, I hope you don't mind giving the rogue 10 minutes to disrupt your spell and damage you in the process
Ready action to cast Command? Well, a smart rogue will disrupt your concentration (since readying an action to cast a spell will give that spell the concentration requirement and thus: damage will be able to interrupt it, just attack from stealth with a shortbow or crossbow).

I think Jellypooga has said more then enough about the turtling tactic to not nee dme expand on that.

Ranged attacks? I hardly expect the paladin to outdo the rogue onranged attacking, not only does the paladin lose AC (making it easier for the rogue to hit) but unless he specifically sharpshooter, it will be hard to hit the rogue at low level, and slightly less hard at higher levels (though the rogue will be able to counter that as well in time as his dex rises and better armour comes online). I have the feeling that most of the advantages Paladin has over rogue are nullified by smart play regarding mobility and sniping. By the way, tactics which are in character for a rogue: hater's gonna hate, rogue gonna be a sneaky bitch and fight unfair. Yet I see the rogue having options that the paladin can't reliably shut down. Sure lay on hands can do a lot, but in this case it will only prolong the fight. For instance, the rogue can use poison and LOH will fix that, but seeing how you can use one dose to cover about 10 arrows (let's assume 50% hit thorugh the save for ease of calc) that's 5 instances of poison the pally will have to LOH away (or suffer through). Only aura puts a stop to that but low level entirely appropriate strategy. At higher levels (at lvl 12 the rogue will have 4 ASI's (so enough for dex 18, Alert, Skulker and Mobile) hiding (expertise and 18 dex will give +12 stealth and with realiable talent that's a done deal (reliable talent increases every roll below 10 to a 10 increasing the expected value to about 13, with the +12 bonus makes for 25 expected hiding check). A 14 wis, perception proficient paladin will need to roll a 19 to see the rogue to target with spells, etc. Else, snipe, move, hide remains a viable tactic. The rogue can just needle the paladin to death over time with a shortbow for all he cares. Sneak attack of 6d6+4+weapon damage (d6 or d8). I'd say the rogue, when playing true to the class will win. In terms of solo capability, a well made rogue in a skilled player's hands can truly be a terrifying sight to behold.

[longshotist]

Trapping the house isn't predicated on having access to the house beforhand, but rather the idea that time is on the Paladins side due to being able to "turtle" in a favourable location for him.

If the Paladin is staying put, the Rogue has free rein on the rest of the mansion; if he brought supplies (including rations), he's got all the time in the world to lay traps. We're not talking about digging pits and setting up rolling boulders here; bear-traps, difficult terrain from cluttering floor space, furniture rigged to fall, tripwires...all of which slow the Paladin down, allowing the Rogue to take the advantage.

If the Paladin doesn't want to come out, the Rogue can literally stand outside the door taunting him. If all the Paladin is doing is waiting for the Rogue to come to him, I count that as the Paladin losing by default; he's refusing to fight. On the flipside, the Rogue can very likely nettle the Paladin both verbally and physically; he's actively encouraging the Paladin to come and get him, while the Paladin is sitting there saying "no".

So the Paladin either loses by default because he can't force the Rogue to fight on his terms or he loses to the Rogues superior mobility and (potentially) preparation.

The paladin could do the same sorts of things - there's nothing "rogue-y" about creating advantageous battlefield conditions (or traps for that matter). A paladin could just as easily rig the house with traps to trip up the rogue. All of the predicated scenarios offered for either side simply give the benefit of the doubt to whichever class the poster believes will win.

[Citan]

Sorry, gotta give it to the rogue for one reason only:

PvP is often hinged on teh following principle: to dela damage you need to be able to hit, to hit you need to get someone in view or the ability to target them.

Hiding and mobility (the ways to make sure you cannot be targeted) are two fortes of the rogue. Sure the paladin has the ability to hit like a truck, but to do that you need to hit first. The rogue will outperforn the paladin on both playing tag and hide-and-seek and what' smore, it's a playstyle that's rewarding for the rogue. The paladin, meanwhile, will have to spend a lot of HP resources to reach the rogue and squat him like a fly.

Ranged attacks? I hardly expect the paladin to outdo the rogue onranged attacking, not only does the paladin lose AC (making it easier for the rogue to hit) but unless he specifically sharpshooter, it will be hard to hit the rogue at low level, and slightly less hard at higher levels (though the rogue will be able to counter that as well in time as his dex rises and better armour comes online). At higher levels (at lvl 12 the rogue will have 4 ASI's (so enough for dex 18, Alert, Skulker and Mobile) hiding (expertise and 18 dex will give +12 stealth and with realiable talent that's a done deal (reliable talent increases every roll below 10 to a 10 increasing the expected value to about 13, with the +12 bonus makes for 25 expected hiding check). A 14 wis, perception proficient paladin will need to roll a 19 to see the rogue to target with spells, etc. Else, snipe, move, hide remains a viable tactic. The rogue can just needle the paladin to death over time with a shortbow for all he cares. Sneak attack of 6d6+4+weapon damage (d6 or d8). I'd say the rogue, when playing true to the class will win. In terms of solo capability, a well made rogue in a skilled player's hands can truly be a terrifying sight to behold.
You make nice points but again fall into assumption category.
1. Why would Paladin lose AC when using ranged attacks? One-handed thrown weapons are a thing. Or as I said, Spell Sniper with Eldricht Blast does the trick nicely. Or Magic Initiate Sorcerer (Shield or Magic Missile + Frostbite and Ray of Frost / Fire Bolt / Create Bonfire depending on tactics). Just sheathe your weapon and blast away.

2. Why would Paladin has so much difficulty hitting a Rogue? Rogue will usually start with light armor so 12+3 AC, and end with light armor + max DEX = 17 AC.
Paladin can at least go 18 in one stat (either STR/DEX or CHA, depending on tactics) and can Bless himself when no spell would be better for the situation, adding an average 2 on the roll.

3. Why would a Paladin stay outdoors or in another room where the Rogue has obviously an advantage in range, mobility or hiding? If Paladin goes into a lighted room with only one entrance, and avoids being in line of shoot from other rooms, the Rogue just can't hide into the room unless he's Arcane Trickster with Invisibility.

4. Why couldn't the Paladin also get some traps to prevent the Rogue to move as easily as he would want?

5. Why couldn't a Devotion Paladin cast Sanctuary to limit the damage while he rushes towards the Rogue? Ancients could also cast Moonbeam to track a Rogue or force him to leave hiding. Vengeance could cast Haste when his turn comes to try and reach the Rogue in one go. It's also risky because of after effects, but if he manages to get in melee range, he would hurt Rogue badly (killing or not depending on luck). Or just shove/grapple him.

6. Why couldn't the Paladin cast Ensnaring or Branding Smite then Ready his attack with a bow (supposing a DEX one ;)) for when the Rogue attacks (since it means it leaves Hiding)? If the Rogue misses or if Paladin manages to sustain the concentration, it's a worth gamble. Only counter is Skulker feat.

7. Why would it be so easy for a Rogue to hit the Paladin? Even with advantage from the familiar (which is a "houserule" gift given to OP to allow all archetypes, which is already a sign of unbalance of power), you still have to reach an AC that will be 18 at least (heavy armor), can go up to 22 (shield + Haste or Shield of Faith), from level 1 onwards. So Rogue lvl 4 probably has a +5 bonus (so 17+ roll), lvl 8 has +8 (I'm nice and supposing Rogue maxed DEX instead of taking feats), so 14+, lvl 12 +9 so hit on 13+. Advantage will help greatly, sure, but that's still very low chance to hit for the first encounter, and "just good" for the other.

You are basically supposing that on one side, the player is extra smart and optimized, but the other couldn't be as crafty? I'm saddened for all Paladins around here... ^^

[JellyPooga]

The paladin could do the same sorts of things - there's nothing "rogue-y" about creating advantageous battlefield conditions (or traps for that matter). A paladin could just as easily rig the house with traps to trip up the rogue. All of the predicated scenarios offered for either side simply give the benefit of the doubt to whichever class the poster believes will win.

Yes the Paladin could use the same tactics...if it was in any way advantageous for the Rogue to hole up in a small room and wait for him. Which it's not. Getting cornered is the last thing the Rogue needs, so the Paladin hasn't the time to rig traps like the Rogue might. Additionally, last I checked, Rogues A) are not so botherd by rough terrain, B) have good Perception and C) have good Dex saves. Traps aren't a problem for a Rogue to avoid pr even turn against the one who set them.

It's absolutely a Rogue schtick to play with traps as well as poison and other underhand tactics that the Paladin isn't suited to, either on a mechanical or characterful level.

[longshotist]

Yes the Paladin could use the same tactics...if it was in any way advantageous for the Rogue to hole up in a small room and wait for him. Which it's not. Getting cornered is the last thing the Rogue needs, so the Paladin hasn't the time to rig traps like the Rogue might. Additionally, last I checked, Rogues A) are not so botherd by rough terrain, B) have good Perception and C) have good Dex saves. Traps aren't a problem for a Rogue to avoid pr even turn against the one who set them.

It's absolutely a Rogue schtick to play with traps as well as poison and other underhand tactics that the Paladin isn't suited to, either on a mechanical or characterful level.

that's what i'm saying though, too. Is it advantageous for a paladin to pick a spot in a room and just stand there to wait and see what happens? why doesn't the paladin have time to prepare the battlefield? too busy picking the spot to be cornered in? bear traps would help slow down a rogue trying to kite the paladin, i would imagine. difficult terrain is difficult terrain as well.

these conjectures basically just favor whichever the poster chooses to use their imagination more with. there's nothing in the RAW regarding trap creation and use. it's just based on imagining what a rogue might be like and not applying the same creativity to the paladin.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What stops the Paladin from grabbing a torch setting the whole place on fire and standing at the exit.That's funny. I was going to suggest the rogue burn down the manor instead, to hard-counter the "hole up in a cramped barricaded room" strategy (which, IMO, means the paladin almost always wins if the manor is made of the same indestructible plot material as the invisible walls). The map itself lists multiple exits before taking into account non-door escape methods, and the main thing the walls are doing is constraining the rogue's ability to attack from range. Far better for a sneaky archer to have an open field with smoke and burning rubble providing cover.

To be honest, if the map was an open forest without invisible walls (why are we playing TTRPGs again?), I would give the Paladin basically 0 chance. With this limited manor area, the paladin may be able to trap the rogue effectively with some good luck and planning.

Other points that were brought up previously:

The familiar doesn't insta-die. The familiar doesn't just camp next to the Paladin, and the familiar can also hide. Now, once the rogue decides to engage while using the familiar, the paladin can potentially locate the familiar and then potentially hit the familiar, killing it with a decent smite. But that's nowhere near guaranteed, and in the meantime the paladin is making a decision not to use his actions chasing or locating the rogue.
Yes, the paladin probably has a bow and javelins. But if he's forced to engage at longbow range, he's simply not as good as the rogue. Even a DEX paladin, which is suboptimal except for possibly this one PVP exchange, isn't as good as a rogue with Sharpshooter. Did the paladin, who cannot smite at range, take sharpshooter?
Misty Step, while nice, only goes 30'. It doesn't cover as much ground as, for instance, a Mobile Rogue dashing as a bonus action - something that doesn't expend a level 2 spell slot. Even a mounted paladin's speed will pale to a Mobile Rogue dashing through difficult terrain, and of course the mount can be killed far more easily than the rider. The key to the paladin's victory is to force the Rogue to get close to be able to attack in the first place - something the Manor does quite nicely unless it burns down.

[JellyPooga]

that's what i'm saying though, too. Is it advantageous for a paladin to pick a spot in a room and just stand there to wait and see what happens? why doesn't the paladin have time to prepare the battlefield? too busy picking the spot to be cornered in? bear traps would help slow down a rogue trying to kite the paladin, i would imagine. difficult terrain is difficult terrain as well.

these conjectures basically just favor whichever the poster chooses to use their imagination more with. there's nothing in the RAW regarding trap creation and use. it's just based on imagining what a rogue might be like and not applying the same creativity to the paladin.

The Rogue having time to prep is dependant on the Paladin turtling, which it is advantageous for him to do; cornering the Rogue or locking him in melee is the only way the Paladin is really going to win this contest.

As I said before, Mobility is a Feat that any given Rogue might pick up because it complements their style. The same couldn't be said for the Paladin, so creating difficult terrain (whether the Rogue or the Paladin does it) is going to be in the Rogues favour, unless the Paladin is specifically built to combat Rogues.

Likewise, Rogues are masters of traps. If the Paladin tries to get in on that game, he's going to find it either ineffective or turned against him.

[Socratov]

A bit long to keep the quote in one, so I'm going to break it up mmkay?


You make nice points but again fall into assumption category.
1. Why would Paladin lose AC when using ranged attacks? One-handed thrown weapons are a thing. Or as I said, Spell Sniper with Eldricht Blast does the trick nicely. Or Magic Initiate Sorcerer (Shield or Magic Missile + Frostbite and Ray of Frost / Fire Bolt / Create Bonfire depending on tactics). Just sheathe your weapon and blast away.
For a pure paladin MI is an option. Certainly, once we allow dips what makes a paladin? Besides, that opens up all new different options for the rogue. If the pally dips, why not the rogue take a dip in barbarian or fighter for heavy armour?. the Mi stuff is genuine, though costly as it takes away an ASI, of which the Rogue out of the box gets more then the pally IIRC. (the rogue gets one at 10th due to the class).

Though I feel that does not take away that ranged for a pally is very suboptimal since you can't smite using a ranged attack. A specialist rogue hunter build will do it for certain, but generally it will make (in general) build choices for the fight, instead of choices that are in general beneficient to a Paladin.

2. Why would Paladin has so much difficulty hitting a Rogue? Rogue will usually start with light armor so 12+3 AC, and end with light armor + max DEX = 17 AC.
Paladin can at least go 18 in one stat (either STR/DEX or CHA, depending on tactics) and can Bless himself when no spell would be better for the situation, adding an average 2 on the roll.
Well, if you take GWM, that is a flat -5 to attacks. Same for sharp shooter. If you don't good luck doing any real damage.

3. Why would a Paladin stay outdoors or in another room where the Rogue has obviously an advantage in range, mobility or hiding? If Paladin goes into a lighted room with only one entrance, and avoids being in line of shoot from other rooms, the Rogue just can't hide into the room unless he's Arcane Trickster with Invisibility.
As previously established, AT is the supreme choice for rogue in this case. But even if you don't take AT, there is the turtling situation laid out above for more then enough times.

4. Why couldn't the Paladin also get some traps to prevent the Rogue to move as easily as he would want?
I will refer to jellypooga above. No sense repeating the words ad anuseam.

5. Why couldn't a Devotion Paladin cast Sanctuary to limit the damage while he rushes towards the Rogue? Ancients could also cast Moonbeam to track a Rogue or force him to leave hiding. Vengeance could cast Haste when his turn comes to try and reach the Rogue in one go. It's also risky because of after effects, but if he manages to get in melee range, he would hurt Rogue badly (killing or not depending on luck). Or just shove/grapple him.
yes, great option. Though the rogue can with Mobile (a feat I would certainly take as rogue) run at 120' a round/80' and hide or attack/40' attack and hide. I have a feeling that the rogue can outrun the paladin. By then it's a game of catch me if you can

6. Why couldn't the Paladin cast Ensnaring or Branding Smite then Ready his attack with a bow (supposing a DEX one ;)) for when the Rogue attacks (since it means it leaves Hiding)? If the Rogue misses or if Paladin manages to sustain the concentration, it's a worth gamble. Only counter is Skulker feat.
this too is a great contender for the paladin, skulker is of course the second feat to be taken by the rogue (and he is able to). But even then the rogue will get saves as well. A rogue can deal a good spike, which makes concentration quite hard to pass.

7. Why would it be so easy for a Rogue to hit the Paladin? Even with advantage from the familiar (which is a "houserule" gift given to OP to allow all archetypes, which is already a sign of unbalance of power)which only fucntions to enable sneak attack, not the advantage itself, though that could be managed in other ways
, you still have to reach an AC that will be 18 at least (heavy armor), can go up to 22 (shield + Haste or Shield of Faith), from level 1 onwards. So Rogue lvl 4 probably has a +5 bonus (so 17+ roll), lvl 8 has +8 (I'm nice and supposing Rogue maxed DEX instead of taking feats), so 14+, lvl 12 +9 so hit on 13+. Advantage will help greatly, sure, but that's still very low chance to hit for the first encounter, and "just good" for the other.
sure, 4th lvl is hard. But with skulker no biggie. All he needs is once to break the concentration. Then he's out, but runs away. rinse and repeat. Once the pally is hit 3 times he has no slots left for shield of faith. From then on it will only get easier. The rogue will NEED Mobile and skulker, that's 2 out of 4 ASI's the Rogue gets. Plenty to raise that sweet dex to 20. By then it's mobility, sniping and skulking going full Vietcong into the Pally's behind. The rogue has this luxury, wether hte pally turtled up first or not.

You are basically supposing that on one side, the player is extra smart and optimized, but the other couldn't be as crafty? I'm saddened for all Paladins around here... ^^
Optimisation has nothing to do with it, craftiness I think is more in character for a rogue then for an honour bound paladin. I'd consider the paladin to be the gold standard and exemplary to other mortals. It's why they get to be the Knight in Shining Armour after all. So, yeah, when it comes to dirty tricks I find it more in line with the rogue to use them then the pally.

[Citan]

A bit long to keep the quote in one, so I'm going to break it up mmkay?

For a pure paladin MI is an option. Certainly, once we allow dips what makes a paladin? Besides, that opens up all new different options for the rogue. If the pally dips, why not the rogue take a dip in barbarian or fighter for heavy armour?. the Mi stuff is genuine, though costly as it takes away an ASI, of which the Rogue out of the box gets more then the pally IIRC. (the rogue gets one at 10th due to the class).
I never talked about ANY dip, just the one Spell Sniper feat. Otherwise the Paladin could very easily trump Rogue as well, but whatever. Spell Sniper just requires to cast a spell. And you can get it at lvl 4, so no problem.


Though I feel that does not take away that ranged for a pally is very suboptimal since you can't smite using a ranged attack. A specialist rogue hunter build will do it for certain, but generally it will make (in general) build choices for the fight, instead of choices that are in general beneficient to a Paladin. Well, if you take GWM, that is a flat -5 to attacks. Same for sharp shooter.

I don't see why a Paladin knowing he fights a Rogue would spend feats when he knows the main problem is reaching melee. But if that happened, then you have either Devotion or Vengeance to offset the penalty.

If you don't good luck doing any real damage. As previously established, AT is the supreme choice for rogue in this case.
You are probably the only one thinking that. Confer my previous posts where I illustrated that most Arcane Trickster spells have counters, and he gets limited slots as well. Assassin has a much better chance because, if properly prepared, he has a chance of killing the Paladin or at least forcing him into a defensive retreat.


But even if you don't take AT, there is the turtling situation laid out above for more then enough times. I will refer to jellypooga above. No sense repeating the words ad anuseam. yes, great option. Though the rogue can with Mobile (a feat I would certainly take as rogue) run at 120' a round/80' and hide or attack/40' attack and hide. I have a feeling that the rogue can outrun the paladin.

As you said, no need to repeat ad nauseam. Either the Paladin has a way to track and catch the Rogue, or he will fall back into another position where Rogue fulfill all the requirements for Sneaking.


By then it's a game of catch me if you can this too is a great contender for the paladin, skulker is of course the second feat to be taken by the rogue (and he is able to). But even then the rogue will get saves as well.
Whether he is an Arcane Tricskter that dumps INT to just use buffs, or another archetype, there is very little chance he will get good saves. By your own demonstration, a Rogue needs at least Skulker, Mobile, Sharpshooter and max DEX. He will also want a decent Constitution for HP, and cannot underestimate Wisdom. So there is a fair chance he will have no more than a +2 bonus to Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma, and no proficiency in those either. Unless he takes Resilient: Wisdom, but then his Initiative and attack hurts (I would certainly do that though, betting on the fact, as you stated, that I could hide and seek easily. As I would take Lucky. Just in case ;))).


A rogue can deal a good spike, which makes concentration quite hard to pass. which only fucntions to enable sneak attack, not the advantage itself, though that could be managed in other ways sure, 4th lvl is hard. But with skulker no biggie. All he needs is once to break the concentration. Then he's out, but runs away. rinse and repeat. Once the pally is hit 3 times he has no slots left for shield of faith. From then on it will only get easier. The rogue will NEED Mobile and skulker, that's 2 out of 4 ASI's the Rogue gets. Plenty to raise that sweet dex to 20. By then it's mobility, sniping and skulking going full Vietcong into the Pally's behind. The rogue has this luxury, wether hte pally turtled up first or not.

Again, you fall into the assumption that the Pally would have no way to block line of sight/shooting whatever happens. You also fall into the assumption that Rogue will hit fast, or that he get Skulker and get enough chances to attack while Paladin is tracking him. Or that the Paladin will have no decent way to act when Rogue is revealed (even if he hides again, Paladin still has an idea of the location).



Optimisation has nothing to do with it, craftiness I think is more in character for a rogue then for an honour bound paladin. I'd consider the paladin to be the gold standard and exemplary to other mortals. It's why they get to be the Knight in Shining Armour after all. So, yeah, when it comes to dirty tricks I find it more in line with the rogue to use them then the pally.
Your view could be argued maybe for a Devotion Paladin. For others...

Also, I really don't understand in fact those of you that advocate that "Rogue is sure to win by kiting" and then press on the fact that max Dex and Sharpshooter are necessary. On the contrary, if you are really sure that you have all the time you need because the Paladin could never catch/track you, you should instead gang upon feats and other stat bumps to shore up the blatant save weaknesses... Skulker indeed, Mobile probably, then a choice between Resilient: Wisdom, Defensive Duelist (so I have a good chance to avoid at least one hit if Paladin reaches melee), Lucky and Alert. Not necessarily in all that order (Skulker as variant Human, Alert at level 4, then choose depending on what I know from my opponent).

[Shining Wrath]

If both sides get to spend lots of money and have lots of stuff with them I think Ye Olde Tanglefoot Bag is a choice for the Paladin. It's got to work exactly once. Alternatively, turtle and spread a thin film of oil along the line of approach. A prone rogue is a dead rogue.

[SillyPopeNachos]

Vengeance Paladin starting right next to any rogue is going to eat it for breakfast. What is more likely to happen with the various rogue types vs other paladin types when they most likely win initiative: thief - does all the acrobatics to keep distance and chip away at the paladin's health; arcane trickster - unless they keep distance, will most likely die; assassin - deals a lot of damage up front, fight could go either way; swashbuckler - dances circles around the paladin dealing loads of damage.

[Socratov]

I never talked about ANY dip, just the one Spell Sniper feat. Otherwise the Paladin could very easily trump Rogue as well, but whatever. Spell Sniper just requires to cast a spell. And you can get it at lvl 4, so no problem.
ah, I was confused about the sorcerer bit, it amde it seem for me that you'd take a dip there. this does cost you your maxed 2nd stat.

I don't see why a Paladin knowing he fights a Rogue would spend feats when he knows the main problem is reaching melee. But if that happened, then you have either Devotion or Vengeance to offset the penalty.
Sure, that is an option, but it would take the paladin to deviate more form general paladinniness the the rogue from rogueiness. But then again, a rogue hunter paladin could be a thing: one person within the specific order to hunt down those pesky buggers

You are probably the only one thinking that. Confer my previous posts where I illustrated that most Arcane Trickster spells have counters, and he gets limited slots as well. Assassin has a much better chance because, if properly prepared, he has a chance of killing the Paladin or at least forcing him into a defensive retreat.
Am not. AT has been suggested before, multiple times even. And while some spells are easily resisted through aura, the buffs and utility is where the rogue excells in his list. the aura does not help with investigation against illusions. Not does it help you precieve hidden invisible enemies. How would you know to dispell if you don't know where you target is. That is why regardless of dispel magic, invisibility will still be a hard nut to crack. As for assassin, it think it's optimal since it features do not give any benefit against paladins. A paladin won't take off armour etc. so if you do get the drop on him (and get to impose the fabled surpised condition) you'll likely miss it. Asaasin is made for Ezio/dropbear style assassination: hit once and hit hard. Then run. Hard. At, Thief and swashbuckler have better features to help during the the game of tag this will devolve into: the thief can handle objects as a bonus action (locking the door behind you to delay the paladin so you can hide, sure, I'll take that), the AT can make hiding again be easier and the swashbuckler can use its mobility to generate more sneak attacks. My favourite is the AT, but least favourite is the Assassin.

As you said, no need to repeat ad nauseam. Either the Paladin has a way to track and catch the Rogue, or he will fall back into another position where Rogue fulfill all the requirements for Sneaking.
Not quite: either the rogue gets to lead him on a merry chase, or the rogue gets time to set traps and taunt the paladin like a frenchman.

Whether he is an Arcane Tricskter that dumps INT to just use buffs, or another archetype, there is very little chance he will get good saves. By your own demonstration, a Rogue needs at least Skulker, Mobile, Sharpshooter sharpshooter is an option, but not one I would advocate: you as a rogue can take your sweet time neelding and kiting him down. No need to go big, especially considering hte AC the pally has. max dez is 2 steps, 2 feats are really neccessary (skulker and mobile), and then you can even increase con or int as you will, or even take resillient wis. A 14 in con is enough to keep alive for now.
and max DEX. He will also want a decent Constitution for HP, and cannot underestimate Wisdom. So there is a fair chance he will have no more than a +2 bonus to Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma, and no proficiency in those either. Unless he takes Resilient: Wisdom, but then his Initiative and attack hurts (I would certainly do that though, betting on the fact, as you stated, that I could hide and seek easily. As I would take Lucky. Just in case ;))).
charisma is not really improtant can could be dumped in a pinch. Str could be dumped, this leaves dex to be maxed, con to be decent, wis and int to be enough. I'd hazard agianst using offensive spells as a paladin is famously hard to make it stick. due to the aura

Again, you fall into the assumption that the Pally would have no way to block line of sight/shooting whatever happens. You also fall into the assumption that Rogue will hit fast, or that he get Skulker and get enough chances to attack while Paladin is tracking him. Or that the Paladin will have no decent way to act when Rogue is revealed (even if he hides again, Paladin still has an idea of the location).
By then catch me if you can becomes a question wether or not the pally gets to find the hidden rogue. If you want to keep it without metagaming, then the pally will have a hard time finding him due to max dex+expertise

Your view could be argued maybe for a Devotion Paladin. For others...

Also, I really don't understand in fact those of you that advocate that "Rogue is sure to win by kiting" and then press on the fact that max Dex and Sharpshooter are necessary. I don't consider sharpshooter to be neccessary, the rogue can kite just fine as his mobility is definitely a powerful thing due to cunning hands.
On the contrary, if you are really sure that you have all the time you need because the Paladin could never catch/track you, you should instead gang upon feats and other stat bumps to shore up the blatant save weaknesses... Skulker indeed, Mobile probably, then a choice between Resilient: Wisdom, Defensive Duelist (so I have a good chance to avoid at least one hit if Paladin reaches melee), Lucky and Alert. Not necessarily in all that order (Skulker as variant Human, Alert at level 4, then choose depending on what I know from my opponent).
Out of those I only consider Skulker and mobile must-haves. Those two will give the rogue the mobility he needs to stay ahead of the apaldin and the ability to hide for the next potshot.

Let's consider 27 point buy on Vuman: 8|16|14|14|13|9, at 1st take skulker, 4th take mobile, 8th: take resillient(wis), 10th: dex, 12th: dex, end stats: 8|20|14|14|14|9, expertise Stealth and an annoyance skill (intimidate or persuation to goad into attacking and following). Take AT.

this would be a fairly general rogue build, and IMO fairly able to beat a pally.

[Douche]

This is the problem the Paladin has; to have a decent chance of winning, he has to turtle, but I suspect that even then the Rogue has enough tools to get around his defences and still come out on top. Between Expertise in a choice of skills and his Class features, the Rogue simply has more options, while the Paladin is largely restricted to melee combat to be effective.

The only way I see the Paladin winning, is if the Rogue does something stupid, or through luck, but I can't see the reverse being true; I can see the Paladin playing a perfect game and still losing to the varied tactics available to the Rogue.

I could be wrong, I'm prepared to admit that, knowing that I do have a bias in this contest and if someone runs the numbers and proves me to be so, I'll happily concede, but I just can't see our Pally winning this, even though I think the level breaks favour the Paladin more than the Rogue (IMO...the top tier being lvl.12 instead of lvl.13 is more in the Paladins favour, who benefits more from the extra ASI, whilst the Rogue is missing a dice of Sneak Attack and an Archetype feature, for example).

Sorry, friend. I wasn't trying to favor the Paladin... I just chose 3 intervals of 4 because it seemed like it made sense (4 being prior to 2nd attack for the pally was why I started at 4).

EDIT: Also, some notes on the familiar - I was just trying to contrive some way for the rogue to get sneak attack. By RAW, it is standing adjacent to the rogue's enemy, so they can achieve sneak attack. It does not grant any other bonuses - meaning it can't scout for the rogue, nor can it use the help action.



I do like the idea of the paladin setting up a trap for the rogue. He doesn't even need to turtle in a corner room like you guys seem to think. He could rig the ceiling to collapse in the hallway between M15-M17. As soon as the rogue enters, he breaks the ceiling & cuts off escape, or he could rig the door to snap closed & not open. Now they're in a 5 ft wide hallway with a paladin blocking his only means of escape.

As other people have said, the rogue only needs to make one mistake. The paladin can spend his time chasing the rogue for quite some time, tanking hits & facerolling through traps. Once he is low, the rogue needs to close the deal or the paladin will retreat. At this point, the paladin runs to his steel cage match hallway. The rogue either has to chase him in to prevent him from recovery, or sit outside like a wuss for god knows how long. Will he let the paladin hole up in M16 and get a long rest? Then they do it all again the next day.

The rogue will have to take a big risk eventually, or else he won't be able to finish the paladin. Chip damage doesn't really mean much when the rogue isn't willing to put himself in danger to finish it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The rogue will have to take a big risk eventually, or else he won't be able to finish the paladin. Chip damage doesn't really mean much when the rogue isn't willing to put himself in danger to finish it.This is only true in the cramped area as presented. If the manor burns to the ground, the Paladin no longer has the same options.

[Gignere]

The fact the paladin has to spec and play like either a rogue (setting traps get mobility) or a caster (MI and Spell Sniper) means the rogue has the edge.

What optimization guides recommend magic initiate for paladins or spell sniper? These are obvious builds to counter the rogues ability and the crazy thing is that any class could get them.

In fact what is the difference between a fighter getting these feats and a paladin getting them, nothing. Basically stop using your class features and rely on feats that no optimization guides recommend and you can beat the rogue that is using a very rogue build and feats, mobility, alert, sharpshooter, and maybe skulker. Rogue is relying on their class features even with those feats bonus action hide, dash, disengage whereas the paladin is just hold my action to eldritch blast the rogue because I got that from MI wow my class features rock.

[MasterMercury]

I've been reading this thread from the start, and I have not once seen the "ready action eltritch blast" strategy for the paladin. Or any feats for the paladin I can recall. I may be wrong, but the only feats I have seen were for the rogue.
If you want a paladin feat, take GWM. -5/+10 damage against a lightly armored rouge can easily mean a win for the paladin.

As for the paladin setting traps, running around, and not being a paladin, here is what I think.
A paladin is made to exchange melee blows with other powerful melee characters, not chase down sneaky little thieves. So, your average paladin is going to be a little out of his comfort zone in this scenario. That doesn't mean the paladin can't win, it just means he has to think outside of the box (hence the running around and trap setting).

As many people have said before me, and many will say after me, for a rogue to win he has to be not unlucky many times. A paladin, with or without GMW, only has to be lucky once or twice.

[JellyPooga]

As many people have said before me, and many will say after me, for a rogue to win he has to be not unlucky many times. A paladin, with or without GMW, only has to be lucky once or twice.

When being "not unlucky" is practically built into your Class, it's not so much of a challenge to pull off being consistently so. Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Reliable Talent...hell, even Sneak Attack to an extent; all these abilities are about taking luck out of the equation, whether by making tasks easier or mitigating bad dice. For a Rogue to be "unlucky" takes some doing. The Paladin not only has to be lucky once or twice, but the Rogue has to be unlucky at the same time. While I don't discount the possibility, it doesn't look good for the Paladin when the odds are against him in that way.

On the possibility of Eldritch Blast for the Paladin; EB without Warlock levels is good, but not great. At the levels breaks of 4/8/12, we're getting 1/2/3 shots for base 1d10 damage, no Cha mod to damage, no Repelling Blast, can't Smite with it, can't use Extra Attack or pretty much any other Paladin features in conjunction with it; it's just the basic Eldritch Blast. In order to make this worthwhile, means pumping Charisma up to 16 or more, which given the requirement for Str/Dex/Con (and Wis if you want even a chance of finding the Rogue), is getting pretty MAD. It also costs a Feat, of which the Paladin only has 3 (4 if V.Human); Spell Sniper would be my choice to ignore cover, but there's definitely an argument for Magic Initiate to grab Hex as well. "Ready Action - EB" is a decent-ish strategy, except when you consider that your to-hit is going to be in the region of what? +5? +8 tops? Against the Rogues AC in the region of 15 to 20 (being generous to the Paladin here...Rogue AC can equal that of a Tanking EK if he wants it to), you're still only looking at around a 50% hit rate for an average of 5 damage per hit. Not exactly something to get excited about when the return fire is along the lines of 1d8+2/4/6d6+Dex.

On GWM; The Paladin in this scenario is going to be struggling to draw a bead on the Rogue, let alone hit him. Personally, I wouldn't use GWM because by the time I've finally tracked down the slippery so-and-so, managed to pass a Perception check to actually spot him and I've somehow managed to close to melee range, the last thing I want to do is impose a -5 penalty to my attack roll(s), watch myself swing and miss by exactly that margin, possibly take some retaliatory damage and then stand there and watch the Rogue disappear...again. What the Paladin really wants in this scenario (if we're looking directly at his combat stats) is as many bonuses to hit as he can muster; Smite damage is more than sufficient to take out the Rogue in a couple of hits, but getting that Smite to connect in the first place is the trick.

[Citan]

On the possibility of Eldritch Blast for the Paladin; EB without Warlock levels is good, but not great. At the levels breaks of 4/8/12, we're getting 1/2/3 shots for base 1d10 damage, no Cha mod to damage, no Repelling Blast, can't Smite with it, can't use Extra Attack or pretty much any other Paladin features in conjunction with it; it's just the basic Eldritch Blast. In order to make this worthwhile, means pumping Charisma up to 16 or more, which given the requirement for Str/Dex/Con (and Wis if you want even a chance of finding the Rogue), is getting pretty MAD. It also costs a Feat, of which the Paladin only has 3 (4 if V.Human); Spell Sniper would be my choice to ignore cover, but there's definitely an argument for Magic Initiate to grab Hex as well.
There is no MADness in that at all.
Any Paladin would want to start with a 16 in Charisma anyways because it means better DC, more spells prepared and better saves.
Any Paladin relying on this could very safely use low STR (heavy armor with speed loss or medium armor) or low DEX (lesser initiative, but saves are compensated by Aura of Protection).
Considering Rogue has no other good way to attack Paladin than attacks against AC or occasional traps, it's not so bad to get "only good" Dex saves (you still get with +CHA, equal or superior bonus than what your proficiency bonus would be at these levels).

Also, a Devotion or Vengeance Paladin which manages to reach melee could easily compensate their lower than usual attack stat with their Oath features.

So building only CHA would be a very valid strategy. A Half-Elf could start with 16 (14+2) in CHA + 16 and 14 in other stats.

Also, for people saying that Spell Sniper / Magic Initiate is never recommended in guides, that is just because guides usually recommends whatever is the best to enhance the primary quality of Paladin, for "damage optimization". That is not saying that everyone follows guides. ;)

[JellyPooga]

There is no MADness in that at all.So you are recommending a build that can easily be kited;
Any Paladin relying on this could very safely use low STR (heavy armor with speed loss or medium armor)definitely won't be winning Initiative;
or low DEX (lesser initiative, but saves are compensated by Aura of Protection).and has a great defence against a style of attack that the Rogue simply won't be using.
Considering Rogue has no other good way to attack Paladin than attacks against AC or occasional trapsSo instead of always having a decent attack modifier, you'd advocate temporary bonuses instead;
Also, a Devotion or Vengeance Paladin which manages to reach melee could easily compensate their lower than usual attack stat with their Oath features.

No, this Paladin should probably not invest more than a 14 in Charisma if he's building specifically for this encounter. More generally, I'd tend to agree with you; high Charisma is the Paladins thing and in normal play the pros and cons balance out. In this scenario, however, a Paladin built for Charisma is doing himself a disservice because the Rogue...the Rogue wants you to be slow, have poor initiative and rely on limited use abilities.

[Douche]

This is only true in the cramped area as presented. If the manor burns to the ground, the Paladin no longer has the same options.

Well if you're going to burn down the manor then there's really no point to the challenge as presented in the first place. Might as well start in an empty field.

When I did the cleric vs wizard challenge, I didn't specify an arena which was a point of contention for many. So I chose a manor that looked like it had a decent mix of confined & open spaces.

Anyway, maybe the manor is made of stone. Wow, I can nullify your stumper just as easily.


When being "not unlucky" is practically built into your Class, it's not so much of a challenge to pull off being consistently so. Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Reliable Talent...hell, even Sneak Attack to an extent; all these abilities are about taking luck out of the equation, whether by making tasks easier or mitigating bad dice. For a Rogue to be "unlucky" takes some doing. The Paladin not only has to be lucky once or twice, but the Rogue has to be unlucky at the same time. While I don't discount the possibility, it doesn't look good for the Paladin when the odds are against him in that way.

Speaking in a general manner, perhaps... But specifically, the Paladin only has to spring one trap to lock down the rogue. No one has actually suggested a way that the rogue could stop the Paladin. The only suggestions for traps were bear traps & caltrops, pretty much. So the Paladin gets temporarily hobbled, and walks it off.

By the way, what does a bear trap do in 5e? All I could google (in some SRD crap for 4e, so idk how reliable it is) is that it knocks you prone. No damage even... That's a boon for the Paladin, since our archer rogue now has disadvantage on his ranged attacks. That's assuming that a bear trap isn't clearly visible - they're called bear traps for a reason. Cuz they're huge, and you hide them in the woods under leaves & stuff, and cuz humans aren't dumb enough to walk into them.

Anyway, for it to happen at the "same time" as you say it, the Paladin is engineering it that way. He has created the situation where the rogue has no escape. And once again, the rogue will eventually have to take that risk if he wants to win.

[Citan]

So you are recommending a build that can easily be kited;definitely won't be winning Initiative;and has a great defence against a style of attack that the Rogue simply won't be using.So instead of always having a decent attack modifier, you'd advocate temporary bonuses instead;

No, this Paladin should probably not invest more than a 14 in Charisma if he's building specifically for this encounter. More generally, I'd tend to agree with you; high Charisma is the Paladins thing and in normal play the pros and cons balance out. In this scenario, however, a Paladin built for Charisma is doing himself a disservice because the Rogue...the Rogue wants you to be slow, have poor initiative and rely on limited use abilities.

Don't understant your point.
Would a Paladin ever hope winning initiative in general against the DEXest of all classes? Either he takes Alert, or Lucky, or just hopes for a good roll. But he never will have a better Initiative than Rogue anyways by just relying on DEX bonus. So why even try if trying means just bumping initiative roll with +1/2 (because you start with 16 DEX instead of 14 or even 12) and be done with it?

As for DEX saves, since you have +CHA, it ends at +4 strict minimum when you start, with +1 for every CHA bump. Same as just relying on good DEX and low CHA? Except that CHA affects all saves + everything else, so it's a far better investment. Especially since there is very little risk of taking DEX-save spells (would mean Arcane Trickster with high INT except for third round), so only traps (c)would be a threat.

So being a traditional Paladin which relies on STR+CHA is totally fine. Except if you want to play the Longbow way, in which case a Devotion Paladin with DEX and CHA main is the best bet. In such a particular concept the mobility loss (in case you want to stick with heavy armor) would be less painful since you would rely on ranged attacks for most parts anyways. (I'd say it's strictly inferior to a Vengeance Paladin with Spell Sniper though, but if one wants Devotion for a particular reason...).

Also, you don't get only Oath abilities to compensate.
If Paladin reaches into melee, he could grapple Rogue. Or have cast Bless / Sacred Weapon before going out of his safe place.
And when a Vengeance Paladin reaches Rogue in melee, there is no reason not to use his Oath.

So as everyone agrees on (maybe the only one thing XD), once Paladin is in melee range, Rogue is likely to be dead or in very very poor shape. So abilities that last 10 turns are lasting far enough to end the fight once the distance has been closed. And they recharge on short rest, not so bad.

[JellyPooga]

the Paladin only has to spring one trap to lock down the rogue.

I said it before and I'll say it again; if the Paladin tries to get in on the trap game he will lose. Perhaps not the encounter, but he'll lose any advantage he tried to gain by playing with something that his opponent is just better at from the ground up. It would be like him entering into a spellslinging contest with a Wizard; it simply won't turn out well for the Paladin!

There's not a great deal of RAW for traps;

- The PHB only has the Hunting Trap, which deals minor damage and stops the victim from moving further than the rope/chain allows. Importantly, this means the victim has to spend an action to go anywhere; if that victim is the Paladin, that's one more round of being shot by the Rogue. Only a poor excuse of a Rogue would be the victim of such a simple trap.

- The only trap in the DMG that I could see being set up in this scenario is the Falling Net, which has ludicrously low DC's to spot/disarm. Having said that, it's again something that takes an action to free oneself of if you fall victim to it; slowing down your opponent is a huge factor in winning this fight, from both the Rogues and the Paladins point of view.

- Thinking further afield, there's some other "easy" traps;
--Rigging furniture (like a cupboard or wardrobe) to fall on the victim achieves a similar result to both of the above.
-- A phial of Alchemists Fire perched above a door, ready to fall on the next person to step through, could prove a distracting annoyance.
--A simple trip-wire across a hallway or doorway might be enough for the Paladin to catch up or the Rogue to successfully escape.
-- Contact Poison on a door handle is a solid, if expensive and morally dubious, trap the Paladin can use to great effect; with the Rogue being so poor at Saves and the Paladin being so good at them, this is one trap a Paladin might get good use out of. Falling victim to either Carrion Crawler Mucus or Oil of Taggit would end this encounter quite handily.
-- Depending on what you consider a "trap", simply cluttering up a room or hallway with furniture, ropes or the like, to make it difficult terrain or requiring an Athletics or Acrobatics check to traverse is also potentially an option.

Just some suggestions; I'm sure I could come up with more if pressed and given more specific parameters (like what's actually in the mansion).

[JellyPooga]

Don't understant your point.

I'm just pointing out that in this particular scenario, a Charisma focused Paladin is unnecessarily MAD, when it doesn't really need to be. More specifically, you'd be forced into having that higher Cha by aiming for Eldritch Blast as an option, making EB an unattractive proposition compared to the alternative.

A Half-Elf Pally with;
Str:15+1, Dex:12, Con:14, Int:8, Wis:11+1, Cha:12+2
compared to a similar one, but with a Cha focus;
Str:15+1, Dex:10, Con:14, Int:8, Wis:9+1, Cha:14+2
or even more min-maxed;
Str:15+1, Dex:10, Con:15+1, Int:8, Wis:8, Cha:14+2

The latter two will both be looking at some deficiencies with regards to anything except making Saving Throws and Hitting Hard. Those +1's don't look like much, but when it's a difference between +1 and -1, or you have Disadvantage and only a +0 mod, every little counts. Further, when you're up against a Class that specialises in using the "alternative" solution to a straight up fight, those deficiencies may well bite you in the butt; especially (as is the case here) when your opponent knows what your weaknesses are ahead of time.

[Douche]

I said it before and I'll say it again; if the Paladin tries to get in on the trap game he will lose. Perhaps not the encounter, but he'll lose any advantage he tried to gain by playing with something that his opponent is just better at from the ground up. It would be like him entering into a spellslinging contest with a Wizard; it simply won't turn out well for the Paladin!

There's not a great deal of RAW for traps;

- The PHB only has the Hunting Trap, which deals minor damage and stops the victim from moving further than the rope/chain allows. Importantly, this means the victim has to spend an action to go anywhere; if that victim is the Paladin, that's one more round of being shot by the Rogue. Only a poor excuse of a Rogue would be the victim of such a simple trap.

- The only trap in the DMG that I could see being set up in this scenario is the Falling Net, which has ludicrously low DC's to spot/disarm. Having said that, it's again something that takes an action to free oneself of if you fall victim to it; slowing down your opponent is a huge factor in winning this fight, from both the Rogues and the Paladins point of view.

- Thinking further afield, there's some other "easy" traps;
--Rigging furniture (like a cupboard or wardrobe) to fall on the victim achieves a similar result to both of the above.
-- A phial of Alchemists Fire perched above a door, ready to fall on the next person to step through, could prove a distracting annoyance.
--A simple trip-wire across a hallway or doorway might be enough for the Paladin to catch up or the Rogue to successfully escape.
-- Contact Poison on a door handle is a solid, if expensive and morally dubious, trap the Paladin can use to great effect; with the Rogue being so poor at Saves and the Paladin being so good at them, this is one trap a Paladin might get good use out of. Falling victim to either Carrion Crawler Mucus or Oil of Taggit would end this encounter quite handily.
-- Depending on what you consider a "trap", simply cluttering up a room or hallway with furniture, ropes or the like, to make it difficult terrain or requiring an Athletics or Acrobatics check to traverse is also potentially an option.

Just some suggestions; I'm sure I could come up with more if pressed and given more specific parameters (like what's actually in the mansion).

All he has to do is set up the door in his hallway of doom so that once the rogue walks through, it'll slam shut & stay closed. Then the rogue is in a dead end.

[Citan]

I'm just pointing out that in this particular scenario, a Charisma focused Paladin is unnecessarily MAD, when it doesn't really need to be. More specifically, you'd be forced into having that higher Cha by aiming for Eldritch Blast as an option, making EB an unattractive proposition compared to the alternative.

A Half-Elf Pally with;
Str:15+1, Dex:12, Con:14, Int:8, Wis:11+1, Cha:12+2
compared to a similar one, but with a Cha focus;
Str:15+1, Dex:10, Con:14, Int:8, Wis:9+1, Cha:14+2
or even more min-maxed;
Str:15+1, Dex:10, Con:15+1, Int:8, Wis:8, Cha:14+2

The latter two will both be looking at some deficiencies with regards to anything except making Saving Throws and Hitting Hard. Those +1's don't look like much, but when it's a difference between +1 and -1, or you have Disadvantage and only a +0 mod, every little counts. Further, when you're up against a Class that specialises in using the "alternative" solution to a straight up fight, those deficiencies may well bite you in the butt; especially (as is the case here) when your opponent knows what your weaknesses are ahead of time.
Thanks for the detailed examples, appreciated.

But I confess I still don't know where the problem is. Taking the middle example which seems the most reasonable to me, compared to the first one, gets...
-1 DEX, -1 WIS, +1 CHA.

So -1 DEX is sad, no argue there. But it only affects Initiative, since you get +1 CHA. So beyond the first encounter, you effectively suffer no penalty on your Dex saves between the two builds thanks to Aura of Protection. So against traps or Dex cantrips, it's essentially the same. And an Arcane Trickster has no interest using damage-dealing spells anyways since it will always be worse than his Sneak Attack.

For Initiative, as I said earlier, only luck would make you get on par or better than Rogue without any serious effort: Rogue will start with +3, or +8 if he takes Alert (which most would probably be since in this situation being the first gives a decisive advantage however you look at it). +-1 won't make a difference. Only taking Lucky or Alert feat.

As for Wisdom, only an Arcane Trickster could maybe target a Paladin, but...
- either having high INT (meaning low Wisdom, Charisma, Strength and Constition) or, for the third encounter only, using the Magical Ambush (don't remember the exact name).
- having selected spells that rely on Wisdom saves, meaning Charm Person (advantage on saving throw if infighting with caster), Tasha's (advantage on saving throw if triggered by damage), Hold Person (good), Crown of Madness (decent).
Considering that...
a) Paladin is proficient in Wisdom saves,
b) Arcane Trickster gets very few slots, which he wants to keep for Shield and maybe Magic Missile for 1st slots, and Mirror Image / Invisibility / Blur / Spider Climb which are great buffs (no fail)...
Why ever in the world would an Arcane Trickster even try to cast such as spell on Paladin?
c) He also gets very few spell known...

Even on other ability scores, the Paladin will get what amounts to at least a half-proficiency or better thanks to +CHA. So he will get decent (INT) to great (WIS, CHA) saves.

Except that the build focusing on CHA will in fact have better saves overall, including the famous "+1 that can make the difference" in INT saves, which are the main stat a Rogue may use for non-damage offensive spellcasting.

That's why your point does not hold.
Nothing in all of any Rogue archetype's arsenal beats the plain old Sneak Attack with self-buffs and occasional...
Except (as others said) for the last encounter where an Arcane Trickster with decent INT may make good use of Phantasmal Force thanks to the disadvantage on roll provided with the Ambush feature.
Phantasmal Force...Which relies on INT.
Which is a dump stat whatever kind of Paladin you make (as illustrated by your three examples).

:)

[JellyPooga]

All he has to do is set up the door in his hallway of doom so that once the rogue walks through, it'll slam shut & stay closed. Then the rogue is in a dead end.

Uh, call me stupid, but...how does one rig a door to stay shut? I mean, a Thief Rogue could close and lock a door in one turn, I guess, but beyond hanging a wardrobe or something above the door, rigged to drop, or sapping the structural integrity of the hallway to collapse behind him, neither of which are particularly practical, I'm just not seeing our Paladin pulling off something like that.

Besides, which "hallway of doom" are we talking about here? Aside from M7, M16, the two small rooms off of M17 and the stable (M19), every other room and hallway has multiple exits as far as I can tell. The Rogue being (quite likely) somewhat of an expert in the field of escapology, he can probably find more exits and entrances than the Paladin can; trying to trap him might not be as easy as just closing the door.

Additionally, a properly paranoid Rogue isn't likely to step foot in any of the rooms I mention above (knowing that they're dead ends) without appropriate precautions, like locking and barricading the door from the outside and leaving the Paladin to rot. I wonder how long it takes for a deity to give up on their chosen warrior, or for a Paladin to lose his faith when he's stuck in a room for the rest of his natural life? You can't summon manna from heaven when you've fallen from grace. That or the Rogue throws a few flasks of Alch-y Fire in and waits for the Paladin to either burn to death along with the rest of the mansion, or asphyxiate from smoke inhalation, because the Paladin got himself stuck in a trap of his own devising.

A stupid Paladin can't win this fight. He's got to play smarter than trying to lure a Rogue into a dead end room that he himself is occupying, because the Rogue is probably smarter than he is and won't be falling for something that obvious.

[JellyPooga]

Thanks for the detailed examples, appreciated.

But I confess I still don't know where the problem is.

It's not the Saves; as you point out, the Rogue isn't very good at either dishing out "Save or X" spells or abilities and +Cha for the Paladin (after level 6) is the equivalent of +Everything Else Too as far as Saves go. No, the Rogue can't win that way.

What pumping Charisma over other scores does do, however, is negatively impact all the Skills that the Paladin will need to keep up with the Rogue; Acrobatics, Perception, Investigation, Insight, Stealth. The best way the Rogue can win this fight is to play to his own Strengths and that means using Skills. Every point the Paladin forgoes in those areas is another notch in favour of the Rogue, who can run literal rings around the Paladin if the Paladin isn't careful not to neglect his other defences.

If we're being equitable, the likes of a Deception vs. Insight check should be possible for the Rogue to force the Paladin into doing something he might not otherwise want to. Want to play the odds on a Rogues Deception vs. the Paladins Insight when the Pally has a negative Wis mod and the Rogue has Expertise? +Cha to Saving Throws won't help on that one.

In a match up like this one, where one party has wildly different strengths to the other, the cup goes to the one who has the ability to defend against the most scenarios. In straight melee, yeah, the Paladin wins. In straight maneuvering, the Rogue wins. It's being able to manipulate the environment and the other party that will decide this particular contest, IMO and that means not leaving yourself weak to skill checks and the Rogue having actively superior skills to the Paladin is why I think he'll be the eventual victor.

[Cybren]

^This.

If the paladin can make the rogue come to him - and this is one way to do it, there may be others - the rogue's ability to hide becomes a lot less important. Also, if the familiar is helping, the familiar can be attacked, and the paladin can almost certainly one-short a normal familiar. If I'm the DM having a mouse in your pocket doesn't let you sneak attack, the ally has to be a distraction of some sort. To be a distraction, it has to be visible and capable of action. So if the paladin's tactically smart, no more sneak attack after the first melee exchange.

Also, if the rogue is trying to hit and run, that lets the Paladin use Lay on Hands.

I think the rogue has the best chance at level 1 where his/her chance to lay a single sneak attack on the paladin that takes them out is highest. Assuming the paladin takes out the familiar in round one, after that it's full plate versus leather, D10 HD versus D8, and spells versus no spells (or not many combat ones for an Arcane Trickster). A smart paladin never leaves the manor house, ever. You're not going to catch someone who can Dash twice, the rogue is certainly better at ranged combat than the paladin - stay in situations where you can always close with the rogue after they make their attack. After level 1, the paladin has access to healing, the rogue doesn't.

So the rogue wins by allowing the paladins refuse to build up until he succumbs to e coli or something.

[Citan]

It's not the Saves; as you point out, the Rogue isn't very good at either dishing out "Save or X" spells or abilities and +Cha for the Paladin (after level 6) is the equivalent of +Everything Else Too as far as Saves go. No, the Rogue can't win that way.

What pumping Charisma over other scores does do, however, is negatively impact all the Skills that the Paladin will need to keep up with the Rogue; Acrobatics, Perception, Investigation, Insight, Stealth. The best way the Rogue can win this fight is to play to his own Strengths and that means using Skills. Every point the Paladin forgoes in those areas is another notch in favour of the Rogue, who can run literal rings around the Paladin if the Paladin isn't careful not to neglect his other defences.

Aaaah ok. Stupid me, thanks for pointing out the obvious. XD
While I agree that Perception is obviously a given, I'd have more of a nuanced opinion on the others you quote.
- Acrobatics: may be useful to avoid some traps I guess, although most traps just talk about a save DC?
- Investigation: why? seeing secret doors or such? It relies on Intelligence anyways, which is a dump stat, so Paladin would probably not even bother. Only Phantasmal Force is a use case, but a smart Paladin would always keep in its head that it can happen, so for example he just really never hits Rogue, even though he can rationalize that it's "normal" he could just fall back for one minute. XD
- Insight: same.
- Stealth: unless you are a Dex build (but even so I would say), why on Earth would you want to Stealth? You are a clunky Paladin in heavy armor, against a Rogue who is certainly proficient, maybe even Expert, in Perception. It's a wasted skill proficiency unless very specific, crafty scheme.

The one true loss here is +1 in Perception, against a Rogue who (people here stressed here far enough I think XD) will be 100% cases Expert in Stealth so a minimum of 8 (DEX 16 + 2*prof + 1) at level 4 up to 14 (DEX 20 + 2*4 +1). Is the +1 CHA modifier worth it?
- Affects number of spells prepared.
- Affects spell DC.
- Affects saves.
To each his own opinion. For me it's a very fair trade, so I'd understand both ways.

[Douche]

Uh, call me stupid, but...how does one rig a door to stay shut? I mean, a Thief Rogue could close and lock a door in one turn, I guess, but beyond hanging a wardrobe or something above the door, rigged to drop, or sapping the structural integrity of the hallway to collapse behind him, neither of which are particularly practical, I'm just not seeing our Paladin pulling off something like that.

Besides, which "hallway of doom" are we talking about here? Aside from M7, M16, the two small rooms off of M17 and the stable (M19), every other room and hallway has multiple exits as far as I can tell. The Rogue being (quite likely) somewhat of an expert in the field of escapology, he can probably find more exits and entrances than the Paladin can; trying to trap him might not be as easy as just closing the door.

Additionally, a properly paranoid Rogue isn't likely to step foot in any of the rooms I mention above (knowing that they're dead ends) without appropriate precautions, like locking and barricading the door from the outside and leaving the Paladin to rot. I wonder how long it takes for a deity to give up on their chosen warrior, or for a Paladin to lose his faith when he's stuck in a room for the rest of his natural life? You can't summon manna from heaven when you've fallen from grace. That or the Rogue throws a few flasks of Alch-y Fire in and waits for the Paladin to either burn to death along with the rest of the mansion, or asphyxiate from smoke inhalation, because the Paladin got himself stuck in a trap of his own devising.

A stupid Paladin can't win this fight. He's got to play smarter than trying to lure a Rogue into a dead end room that he himself is occupying, because the Rogue is probably smarter than he is and won't be falling for something that obvious.

http://www.livetrap.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=30455

Costs $1.50. Maybe 2 bucks if you want to add some fishing line or something to trigger the trap (the Paladin would probably hold whatever the trigger is himself as to not rely on the rogue tripping it). I don't know much about mechanics though so I don't want to get too much into detail with that. Your rogue is spending hundreds of gold on traps, and can be thwarted with a $1.50 spring... Although admittedy it'd probably cost more to buy a spring with the strength to hold a door closed from a human.

The hallway I specified was the one connecting M16 & M17. I chose that one specifically because the paladin can stonewall the rogue up against the door, but has an exit too.

The problem, as I see it, is that the rogue has to, at some point, pursue the paladin. At some point, regardless of how much you want to deny it, the rogue has to fight on the Paladin's terms. I'm not going to bother addressing your points that are outside of the realm of the challenge. Starvation, losing faith, and burning the house down aren't really in good faith as to the question. I don't really want to act like a child stamping my feet here but to me that's roleplaying, not combat, so to me it's irrelevant to the discussion.

I do agree that it would be out of character for the Paladin to act like a rogue and hide inside of a room for 36 hours waiting for the rogue to come in... When I imagined the fight, I pictured it would be the paladin pursuing the rogue the whole time. That is why, in post 76, I acknowledged that the Paladin would be facerolling through traps and taking a ton of damage.

But, my main point is, divorced from all context, it's easy for you to say that the rogue see's all possibilities and can act like children saying "my dad can beat up your dad". But all I'm trying to say is, spring door trap or no, the Paladin would still be in character if he's low health and ducks into a room to heal and/or rest. He would also be in character, as in any horror movie, to be staring at the door anxiously waiting for something to come in - because at that point he will at least want to get a short rest, if not hunker down for a long rest.

So, at that point, the rogue has the choice to either run into the room to deliver a killing blow before the Paladin can heal, or let him get his moment of respite. This will repeat itself each time the Paladin is ready to go out and chase the rogue again.... Or, the rogue can try opening the door and stick his head in to throw your precious alchemist fire. At which point he is already in the doorway, and the Paladin has readied an action to bash his face in, or grapple him, or both.

Meanwhile, every time your rogue is running away from the Paladin or leading him toward another trap (many of which invoke the prone condition, which we already established is just helping the Paladin not get hit), he has to hope he doesn't make a mistake and walk into a dead end himself, get hit with a CC, accidentally hit one of his own traps (because if this hypothetical player has placed so many traps, then human error will probably dictate that he'll forget about a couple).

So basically, your argument is that a rogue player is capable of making 0 mistakes.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Will he let the paladin hole up in M16 and get a long rest?

Or will he grab the M16 first and empty a clip in the paladin's ass?

[JellyPooga]

http://www.livetrap.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=30455

I actually laughed at this. My apologies for the derision, but this wouldn't stop a child from just opening the door again, let alone an experienced adventurer. That thing's just an automatic door closer and not some kind of auto-locking device. In order to make that thing big and strong enough to keep an adult in, you're going to need to do some serious engineering, which you probably don't have the time to do.


The hallway I specified was the one connecting M16 & M17. I chose that one specifically because the paladin can stonewall the rogue up against the door, but has an exit too.

The one with six doors leading off of it? Ignoring the door to M16 itself, which is a dead-end, how exactly is the Paladin predicting which entrance the Rogue will come in? Assuming the Paladin can rig all the doors to shut and lock/barricade as soon as the Rogue enters and he manages to predict which door he comes in, what's to stop the Rogue from shoving you prone and laughing all the way to the next door, which by my count is only 25ft away at most? Sure he might take an OA for his trouble, but he's hardly "stonewalled" and if he's a Thief or an AT with Mage Hand active, he can even lock the door behind him while he's at it.


I don't really want to act like a child stamping my feet here but to me that's roleplaying, not combat, so to me it's irrelevant to the discussion.

To each their own, I suppose, but I thought we were discussing a roleplaying game, myself. If this was intended to be "Who would win in a 10ftx10ft ring in melee?", then the Rogue doesn't really stand much of a chance outside of extreme luck because he's not built for 1-on-1 duels of that nature. That discussion is pointless. Besides, playing the waiting game was brought up by the Pro-Paladin side in the first place. It's not my fault it works out better for the Rogue :smallwink:


the Paladin would still be in character if he's low health and ducks into a room to heal and/or rest. He would also be in character, as in any horror movie, to be staring at the door anxiously waiting for something to come in - because at that point he will at least want to get a short rest, if not hunker down for a long rest.

Absolutely. It doesn't really do him that many more favours than the Rogue would get for the same investment of time, bearing in mind that if the Paladin takes a rest, the Rogue can too. Alternatively, if one party rests, the other party has the opportunity to use that time. I don't see resting working out particularly in either the Rogues or the Paladins favour.


So basically, your argument is that a rogue player is capable of making 0 mistakes.

No. My argument is that the Rogue has the skills, the tools and (arguably) the time to manipulate both the environment and his opponent to his favour. Something the Paladin does not share to the same degree. Making mistakes is something either player might do, but if we're talking characters, I'm fairly sure it'll be the dim-witted Paladin that makes a mistake before the cunning Rogue.

This contest is one of Brains vs. Brawn to bring up the cliche. The Paladin has the Brawn, but does the Rogue have enough Brains (aka: Skill/Tool Proficiencies) to defeat him? That's the question. I think Yes. You're welcome to disagree.

[Cybren]

No. My argument is that the Rogue has the skills, the tools and (arguably) the time to manipulate both the environment and his opponent to his favour. Something the Paladin does not share to the same degree. Making mistakes is something either player might do, but if we're talking characters, I'm fairly sure it'll be the dim-witted Paladin that makes a mistake before the cunning Rogue.

This contest is one of Brains vs. Brawn to bring up the cliche. The Paladin has the Brawn, but does the Rogue have enough Brains (aka: Skill/Tool Proficiencies) to defeat him? That's the question. I think Yes. You're welcome to disagree.

Yeah in the abstract a higher level strategic engagement should favor the person with the most broad skill set, which is theoretically the rogue. They're both trying to bring asymmetrical abilities to the table in a complex environment, which is what makes it a more interesting scenario than typical X vs Y theorcrafting that takes place in a single room of a dungeon with at most a small handful of terrain features.

I imagine there's certain breakpoints in a straight level X paladin vs rogue where certain class features and interactions between opposed skill checks make one or the other get the edge.

[RumoCrytuf]

See, this is the problem I have with Dark Souls invasions. If you're invading, the host will always be a little wuss and run back to where all the enemies are cleared out & it's safe for him. But when you're the one being invaded, the invaders think that you have to fight on their terms & will just run and hide amongst the enemies to give themselves the advantage.... The game basically devolves into who has more patience.

Now, when I play, I fight on the other person's terms, because I'm not scared of facing an invader among AI enemies (and it makes them even more intimidated when they see me killing AI enemies as well as fending off his attacks). Same for when I'm invading - if the host wants to fight in an empty area where he isn't at a disadvantage, then I will oblige him. I mean, you can read these stories on Dark Souls forums where people literally spend half an hour or longer running from each other or hiding behind enemies, because they're too chickens*** to actually play the goddamn game. I came to fight, not play hide & seek.

My point being, the Paladin would have to be an idiot to chase the Rogue. If I were the Paladin I would just sit in the largest room with my back to the wall & wait for the rogue to appear. Unless he was ranged, then I would go inside a small room. There's nothing forcing the Paladin to fight on the rogue's terms. I also don't know how you guys handle sneaking, but you usually need something to provide you with cover. If the Paladin is in the empty entrance hall (M3), then there's nothing to provide the rogue with obscurement.

Furthermore, in all my games I haven't met a Paladin who didn't learn Hunters Mark. Rogue will have a hard time sneaking around with that.

I know your struggle with DS. As a nice rule to fight fair (As I like to try to play by, even though no one else does.) Meet by the bonfire (Make sure enemies cleared out), exchange greetings or some such, no twink builds, no ganking. A clean, fair duel between two semi-matched opponents.

[Douche]

I actually laughed at this. My apologies for the derision, but this wouldn't stop a child from just opening the door again, let alone an experienced adventurer. That thing's just an automatic door closer and not some kind of auto-locking device. In order to make that thing big and strong enough to keep an adult in, you're going to need to do some serious engineering, which you probably don't have the time to do.

Because that's designed for catching possums & skunks. I'd imagine that, in a fantastical fantasy setting, you'd be able to buy something more heavy duty. But you willfully chose to not quote the part where I mentioned that. I also think that finding such a thing in real life (with, say, 100lbs tension, that would actually keep the door shut against something larger than a raccoon) wouldn't be available with a simple google search... Probably because they don't want you to be able to buy human traps from the first page of a google search result (I wonder why?). The item I linked was just an example. If it makes you feel better, imagine the Paladin instead bought a "Ice Wall in a Bottle" or something, which he could just throw behind the rogue to cut off his means of escape. I'm sure something similar exists.

Anyway, if you insist that the house can burn down like it's made from gas-soaked cheesecloth (which, again I say, why even have a house to begin with?) then there's nothing stopping the Paladin from smashing the walls. If you're just going to ignore the terrain, then you're not participating in the discussion.

So anyway, continue to disregard the fact that the rogue still has no means of delivering a killing blow to the paladin without putting himself in harms way.


I know your struggle with DS. As a nice rule to fight fair (As I like to try to play by, even though no one else does.) Meet by the bonfire (Make sure enemies cleared out), exchange greetings or some such, no twink builds, no ganking. A clean, fair duel between two semi-matched opponents.

I agree, most of the time I don't interrupt people if they're in the midst of fighting an enemy - a courtesy most invaders never return. As for the greetings - you can usually tell when someone is going to suck if they don't wave hello at first, lol... The lack of exchanging pleasantries just shows that they either aren't experienced in the game, or they are desperate to win a fight for once.

Although to be honest, straight duels are kind of boring at times. The most exciting moments come from dynamic fights... That's why I like the invasion zones, like the swamp in DS3. You can have, like, 3 on 3 battles where people will be skirmishing, and then suddenly you notice the host is in trouble so you rush over to him & attack the guy fighting him... Crazy stuff.

[JellyPooga]

But you willfully chose to not quote the part where I mentioned that.

Eh, I cut that for expediency and length, rather than a willful disregard. As I said, installing such a device would probably involve taking the door off of its hinges and some serious carpentry; probably not that easy when there's a Rogue hunting you.


If it makes you feel better, imagine the Paladin instead bought a "Ice Wall in a Bottle" or something, which he could just throw behind the rogue to cut off his means of escape. I'm sure something similar exists.

I can buy that, but then it's a Wizard that beat the Rogue, not the Paladin :smallwink:


Anyway, if you insist that the house can burn down like it's made from gas-soaked cheesecloth (which, again I say, why even have a house to begin with?) then there's nothing stopping the Paladin from smashing the walls. If you're just going to ignore the terrain, then you're not participating in the discussion.

Who said the Paladin can't? Oh that's right, the fact that a normal human being can't generally do that to brick, wood and mortar with any kind of alacrity. Good luck mining your way out of a smoke and fire filled room with a sword after I set fire to both you and the room with a molotov cocktail or two. You'd be surprised at how quickly a house can go up, especially when the furniture is all made of wood, the walls are essentially coated in painted straw and the roof is made from thatch. There might even be curtains, exquisite (and flammable) rugs and/or tapestries (it is a mansion, after all). I just hope you didn't choose the booze cellar to hole up in :smallbiggrin:. Not that any of these are necessarily the case, of course...as has been mentioned, there's a lot of details we don't actually know about the terrain at hand.

You should have gone with
"...there's nothing stopping the Paladin from bashing down the door." instead. At least that's within the realms of sane probability within the time frames we're looking at. It's a fair point; just because the door is locked, doesn't mean the Paladin is stuck forever. A remarkably large number of those rooms appear to have a chimney or fireplace (as far as I can work out), others have windows or multiple doors. Climb up one, leap out the other or smash the last and hey presto, you're not burning/suffocating/starving to death. You've also lost one of your "foolproof Rogue traps" because the door/window has been caved in and you're outside where the Rogue might well be able to draw line of fire to you from the relative safety of the interior, but hey, at least you're not dead.


So anyway, continue to disregard the fact that the rogue still has no means of delivering a killing blow to the paladin without putting himself in harms way.

"I shoot the Paladin, then run away" doesn't sound like being in harms way to me. In an ideal situation, the Rogue never approaches any closer than 35ft from the Paladin. That's probably not going to happen in the close confines of the mansion, but should he find himself too close, a double dash or dash+disengage puts plenty of distance between them and a couple of rounds of that is more than enough to reset the encounter in the Rogues favour again (hide -> snipe -> run -> rinse -> repeat). The simple fact is that the Rogue doesn't want and doesn't need to get close enough to the Paladin that the Paladin can do anything significant except hurl javelins, arrows or harsh language. Traps are just another way the Rogue can slow the Paladin down further, should he need it. If anyone's disregarding something, it's anyone who thinks the Paladin can easily lock the Rogue in melee. I'm not saying it's impossible; but it's certainly not easy.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well if you're going to burn down the manor then there's really no point to the challenge as presented in the first place. Might as well start in an empty field.Actually, an empty field (with invisible walls) would favor the Paladin. Burning wreckage lets the Rogue hide and avoid capture. There is, in fact, a point in specifying the location - to allow each side to use that information to their advantage. Why wouldn't the rogue do so?


When I did the cleric vs wizard challenge, I didn't specify an arena which was a point of contention for many. So I chose a manor that looked like it had a decent mix of confined & open spaces.Manor is fine; the point is that terrain can be altered to suit the advantages of either party. The weirder part is the lack of existence beyond the manor.


Anyway, maybe the manor is made of stone. Wow, I can nullify your stumper just as easily.Except the fact that stone buildings can still be burned down due to their flammable parts. Supports, roof, furnishings... it's a manor, after all, not a wizard's tower. This isn't to say that the entire thing will turn to ash, but all the rogue really needs is to make staying in the manor untenable.

[Gignere]

The funny part is that almost no one is relying on the freebie familiar for the rogue at all. I think the OP thought it is difficult to sneak attack for a rogue. In this edition it is actually quite easy because of cunning action.

This rogue v paladin is definitely much closer to call than the cleric v wizard thread.

Let me try by level no feats because we aren't comparing class features anymore. Rogue will use shortbow paladin great sword.

1 - edge has to go to rogue, given expertise in stealth, getting surprise round on paladin is almost a given. This gives the rogue potentially two attacks on the paladin dealing 2d6+3 damage and 1d6 + 3 with advantage on at least one of them. Should be done deal. Paladin has to win initiative in order to avoid the second attack but not surprise round. Rogue has to lose initiative and roll below Paladin's passive in order to not have a good surprise round.

2 - rogues get cunning action, paladins get smite and fighting style. Still have to give this to the rogue because bonus action hide after the surprise round will allow rogue to dish out 2d6 +3 twice before the paladin can even move. With at most 23 hps chances are the paladin isn't recovering. Same dynamics as above for paladin to win so chances are paladin will lose.

3 things start to get interesting both gets their subclass features. Assassin subclass is going to rock this basically a guaranteed 6d6 + 3 followed by 3d6 +3 on 33 hps is basically instagib on the paladin. Other subclass will give the paladin a shot because they just don't have the burst DPR to one shot the paladin. I still give this to the rogue because assassinate is so broken at this level.

5 - both gets the ASI but paladin's DPR sky rockets now with extra attack, rogue only gets an extra d6. Paladin will have 53 hps so even assassinate doesn't guarantee instant gib 8d6 + 4 followed by another 4d6 + 3. 50 expected damage. So if paladin survives he can try and heal or attack rogue and smite. Let's say he stacks both smite and smite spell. 3d8 + 3d6 + 4 twice = 56 damage, but rogue halves the second attack or first to reduce that by 14 down to 42, a rogue should have 38 hps so paladin has edge if he can close in one round unless rogue has 16 con which would bring his total to 43 and allow rogue to attack again. I would say still a slight edge to rogue but close enough to say toss up, because rogue can kite with 80 feet range on shortbow.

[MasterMercury]

The three levels in question are 4,8, and 12. For this scenario, no other levels matter.

Why couldn't a paladin block all the doors? Put something heavy in front of it, or lock a door and jamb something in the keyhole. The paladin has to do something while the rogue is runnin around, hiding, and setting traps.

Assume a paladin can do this for, let's say the hallway in front of M16. If a paladin can then somehow guide a rogue down that hallway, the rogue is trapped. A paladin can just wait at the entrance as the rogue tries all the doors, or the paladin advances slowly, with sanctuary on to help against surprise attacks, and press the rouge up against a wall.

If the paladin can't corral the rogue down that particular hallway, just continue to lock and break doors and narrow the places the rogue can go.

[lunaticfringe]

Rogue!

Ignoring all relevant data previously posted on this thread. I like Rogues, I like playing Rogues. Paladins are full of Suck Ass Fun Ruining. Even with this Edition's Laxness on Alignment every Paladin Character I have played with has been a Meta Gaming (stop profiling my Character, your Character can't read the Alignment written on my sheet) Asshat.

**** Paladin Players, **** You right in your **** Face you ****ers!

[MasterMercury]

Rogue!

Ignoring all relevant data previously posted on this thread. I like Rogues, I like playing Rogues. Paladins are full of Suck Ass Fun Ruining. Even with this Edition's Laxness on Alignment every Paladin Character I have played with has been a Meta Gaming (stop profiling my Character, your Character can't read the Alignment written on my sheet) Asshat.

**** Paladin Players, **** You right in your **** Face you ****ers!
Hmm. I see why you like playing rogues. You have a lot in common with those rude, honorless lowlives.

(If you were merely playing a character, I applaud you for your performance)

[ClintACK]

Rogue!

Ignoring all relevant data previously posted on this thread. I like Rogues, I like playing Rogues. Paladins are full of Suck Ass Fun Ruining. Even with this Edition's Laxness on Alignment every Paladin Character I have played with has been a Meta Gaming (stop profiling my Character, your Character can't read the Alignment written on my sheet) Asshat.

**** Paladin Players, **** You right in your **** Face you ****ers!

*slow clap*

[Foxhound438]

Hmm. I see why you like playing rogues. You have a lot in common with those rude, honorless lowlives.

(If you were merely playing a character, I applaud you for your performance)

definitely sounds like 3/4 of all rogue's I've had the *pleasure* of playing next to.

[RickAllison]

Some of my thoughts follow:

1) The trap suggested by one poster for the Paladin? Check out this quote from its blurb: " This part needs to be attached by welding a support to the front door." So you are not only discussing having the time and expertise to set it up, but actually having welding equipment. Not likely given the setting.

2) I like Thief for this challenge. Paladin tries to box the rogue in by dropping stuff? He can clamber over it without missing a beat. Combine with Expertise in Perception or just looking up to make sure the door itself isn't blocked (or don't close the door. If the door isn't closed, the worst that can happen is the very nimble rogue has to squeeze just a bit) and the idea of locking the rogue in disappears. For extra points, he can climb up walls to set up elevated sniper nests in open rooms. Heck, the failed traps of the roguish paladin help this rogue, as the clutter they create make great barriers that impede the paladin without slowing the rogue. He can just watch the paladin through the rubble for when he dares to recharge his batteries and then shoot him before climbing back down again. If the paladin chases, he just laughs while the paladin deals with his mess.

[Douche]

Who said the Paladin can't? Oh that's right, the fact that a normal human being can't generally do that to brick, wood and mortar with any kind of alacrity. Good luck mining your way out of a smoke and fire filled room with a sword after I set fire to both you and the room with a molotov cocktail or two. You'd be surprised at how quickly a house can go up, especially when the furniture is all made of wood, the walls are essentially coated in painted straw and the roof is made from thatch. There might even be curtains, exquisite (and flammable) rugs and/or tapestries (it is a mansion, after all). I just hope you didn't choose the booze cellar to hole up in :smallbiggrin:. Not that any of these are necessarily the case, of course...as has been mentioned, there's a lot of details we don't actually know about the terrain at hand.
.

You can't have it both ways, comrade. Either it's made of stone & won't burn easily, or it's made of thatch & the paladin smashes the walls with a greatclub or maul.

[Cybren]

You can't have it both ways, comrade. Either it's made of stone & won't burn easily, or it's made of thatch & the paladin smashes the walls with a greatclub or maul.

You seem to be under estimating how flammable the interior of a home is. I'd expect that once the paladin's able to effortlessly (that is in < one turn) smash through a building (without damaging his weapons, which aren't exactly demolitions tools. I'm reminded of people insisting they can chop down a tree with a greatsword), the manor itself is soon to collapse

[yellowrocket]

The dumb hulk smash evil characterization of the paladin is getting old. My kids after a few tactical games have a concept of operating in a 3d environment, and have learned to shoot, move, and communicate with each other in real life.

The paladin doesn't have to have outstanding intelligence to have been trained to operate that way. So the he must run directly after a rogue argument when their are multiple entries to many rooms is a perverse view of things. Also every time the rogue disengages completely, the combats over. You check for a surprise round if he gets the drop, but what's to say the a moving paladin can't get the drop on the rogue. The paladin is best served to not sit still. He eliminates the chance of being cornered himself and leaves open the chance of surprising the rogue, potentially at close distance if they both enter a room from different places.

Or ya know, he catches the rogue planting a trap, because that's certainly a penalty to the rogues perception.

A tanglefoot bag would be appropriate for a paladin as a way to restrain with out killing. If a rogue gets alchemist fire, why not tangle foot bags for the paladin?

It's an even fight. I wouldn't ever declare the rogue to be at a decisive disadvantage at the outset based on available class features, but the paladin isn't at nearly the disadvantage the rogue supporters seem to think he is.

[Douche]

You seem to be under estimating how flammable the interior of a home is. I'd expect that once the paladin's able to effortlessly (that is in < one turn) smash through a building (without damaging his weapons, which aren't exactly demolitions tools. I'm reminded of people insisting they can chop down a tree with a greatsword), the manor itself is soon to collapse

Look, people are switching between fantasy & reality at will. A paladin with 20 strength can run around just as fast with 300 lbs of equipment as with 0. And in either of those cases he can simultaneously push 600 pounds. If he's got a crowbar, then he most likely rip all those doors off their hinges without breaking a sweat. If he can't get out one way, he can get out another. Or he can misty step through a window or something, who gives a damn? Jeez.

I'd like it if people addressed the essence of the argument instead of refuting a single nitpicky detail. The Paladin is not getting stuck in a burning room. The rogue has a harder time if he gets stuck by the Paladin.

[Aembrosia]

I enjoyed this thread more than wizard vs cleric, despite having not participated nearly as much. It was interesting in my perspective cause i thought they were simultaneousy equally deadly to one another and averse to confronting the other. Take that in juxtoposition to my 100% team wizard from go.

I look forward to someone providing circumstance and pairing in a new thread for the next itteration. Not that i deign to declare this one in stalemate.

[RickAllison]

I enjoyed this thread more than wizard vs cleric, despite having not participated nearly as much. It was interesting in my perspective cause i thought they were simultaneousy equally deadly to one another and averse to confronting the other. Take that in juxtoposition to my 100% team wizard from go.

I look forward to someone providing circumstance and pairing in a new thread for the next itteration. Not that i deign to declare this one in stalemate.

Indeed. I think the rogue has the advantage, but it has more to do with the paladin having to adopt much rarer and OOC tactics where rogues be rogues. It ultimately boils down to how the two are played rather than strict mechanical advantage.

[MasterMercury]

I enjoyed this thread more than wizard vs cleric, despite having not participated nearly as much. It was interesting in my perspective cause i thought they were simultaneousy equally deadly to one another and averse to confronting the other. Take that in juxtoposition to my 100% team wizard from go.

I look forward to someone providing circumstance and pairing in a new thread for the next itteration. Not that i deign to declare this one in stalemate.

Yeah, In this paladin v rogue fight, there isn't much argue about specific abilities as there was for WIZ v CLER
It's much more about tactics.

Having said that, I will now talk about a specific ability.
To add an ability, a vengeance paladin can freeze a rogue with his channel divinity at lvl 3. A level four rogue is unlikely to have the best wisdom save. If a paladin can get that off (range 60', save DC likely 12 or 13) then Paladin wins by round 3.

Suggestion for next versus thread:
Barbarian v Sorcerer

[Douche]

Indeed. I think the rogue has the advantage, but it has more to do with the paladin having to adopt much rarer and OOC tactics where rogues be rogues. It ultimately boils down to how the two are played rather than strict mechanical advantage.

Ya know, after all is said & done, I think this really needs a number crunch. I'm curious to see if the rogue will have the carrying capacity to have enough arrows, traps, bombs, etc. as people are saying.


Yeah, In this paladin v rogue fight, there isn't much argue about specific abilities as there was for WIZ v CLER
It's much more about tactics.

Having said that, I will now talk about a specific ability.
To add an ability, a vengeance paladin can freeze a rogue with his channel divinity at lvl 3. A level four rogue is unlikely to have the best wisdom save. If a paladin can get that off (range 60', save DC likely 12 or 13) then Paladin wins by round 3.

Suggestion for next versus thread:
Barbarian v Sorcerer

Heh, I didn't think these threads were so popular. I'll make it next week then, unless someone else wants to.

What conditions should I add to make it a fair fight?

[JellyPooga]

To add an ability, a vengeance paladin can freeze a rogue with his channel divinity at lvl 3. A level four rogue is unlikely to have the best wisdom save. If a paladin can get that off (range 60', save DC likely 12 or 13) then Paladin wins by round 3.

Even without proficiency, we're still looking at roughly a 50/50 chance of this working at level 4, because the Rogue is probably going to invest in a half decent Wisdom. The odds are admittedly somewhat better as level rises, though. The real kicker for the Rogue is that even on a successful save, his speed is halved. Unfortunately for the Paladin, if the Rogue has Mobility (which I think we've established is likely) and passes his Save, he can still double dash and move 60ft. Not the greatest "win button".

There's also some argument about the end condition. If the Rogue knows how the ability functions, could he just nick himself with a knife, take a point of damage and do a runner? Seems unlikely and implausible, but just to play devil's advocate for a minute, I'd like to explore the possibilities...

[DiceDiceBaby]

Reading this thread (which made me laugh a lot), I have to say, I'd vote for the Rogue based on arguments alone. It seems that the only ways by which the Paladin would win this is if:

a) The Paladin resorts to tactics that are not befitting of a Paladin. Poison? Traps? Seriously?

or

b) The Paladin is built in a rather unique and idiosyncratic manner that no normal D&D player would come up with for an actual character concept, because the Paladin has no redeeming class features that can rival the Rogue in PVP.

What I will give the Paladin though is that there is, theoretically, one Oath that would force the Rogue to play fair: Oath of the Crown (SCAG) with its class feature, Champion Challenge (which is basically a glorified Compelled Duel). Barring that though, the Paladin is supposed to be using his powers to heal the sick and/or sense out and destroy demons and the undead (and therefore should be able to detect the Familiar, assuming the Paladin knows or suspects there is one, even if the Familiar is a celestial or fey). The Rogue Archetypes are just too better suited for combat with humans.

But of course, I have no mathematics to back it up, but based on the debate, I can only see the Rogue team having the better arguments.

[JellyPooga]

Suggestion for next versus thread:
Barbarian v Sorcerer

I fear Barbarian vs. Sorcerer would be pretty clear cut; magic wins. Even with the comparatively limited Sorcerer spell list, he's still got an insurmountable advantage with the likes of Fly and Hold Person. The scenario would have to be borked in the Barbarians favour too much to really call it a "fair fight".

Druid vs. Rogue or Druid vs. Fighter could be interesting. The Druid has a good spell list, but few "win buttons"; lots of buffs and environmental controls, but not a lot that completely locks down a single target and it might be interesting to see how well either Class deals with Conjure Animal spam.

Alternatively, how about a duel between two "duelist" Classes; Barbarian vs. Fighter; everyone enjoys watching two titans of physical prowess beat seven hells out of each other, right?

Or how about Rogue vs. Ranger? Unlike the Paladin, the Ranger is also built for speed, maneuverability and stealth; if "Enemy at the Gates" is anything to go by, sniper duels can also be entertaining.


What conditions should I add to make it a fair fight?

Scenarios are tricky; unless the duelists are of similar type, the scenario is likely to favour one or the other. Perhaps presenting a range of scenarios might be better than one; rather than having the "best of three" be at different character levels, make it a "best of three" in three different scenarios? Or if we want to get really crazy, do both; the low-level challenge in a basic arena, the mid-level in something more complex and the high level being in an appropriately high-level environment (such as on a different Plane). As demonstrated by the Paladin vs. Rogue, the environment and how the characters interact with it is easily as significant as the Class Features themselves.

[MasterMercury]

i fear barbarian vs. Sorcerer would be pretty clear cut; magic wins. Even with the comparatively limited sorcerer spell list, he's still got an insurmountable advantage with the likes of fly and hold person. The scenario would have to be borked in the barbarians favour too much to really call it a "fair fight".


containing......rage......must.......not......dera il......thread

[RickAllison]

containing......rage......must.......not......dera il......thread

Use your anger, let it flow through you. Kill him, and your transformation to the Dark Side will be complete...

[Citan]

Scenarios are tricky; unless the duelists are of similar type, the scenario is likely to favour one or the other. Perhaps presenting a range of scenarios might be better than one; rather than having the "best of three" be at different character levels, make it a "best of three" in three different scenarios?
I totally second this, it's a very good idea. And I feel it less clunky than the idea of instant upgrade between encounters.

Just make it so that opponents are each level 12 only: arbitrary number sure, but gives enough margin for different builds and tactics to be developed, and is consistent with the "character ceiling" reported by people on this forum (=very few people manage to level up beyond that point).

[Asmotherion]

Someone mentioned in the last thread (cleric vs wizard) that they'd like to see more of these threads, so I figured I'd make another one. I don't plan on making these every week or anything, but that discussion petered out so I thought I'd pick two new classes. I'll also add some qualifiers to make the discussion a little more focused, but feel free to speculate on alternate scenarios if you wish.

- Both the Paladin & the Rogue are aware of each other's presence and know they will be facing off tomorrow.

- They will be facing off in or around this manor, and are forbidden to leave until one is dead. Because a cosmic entity known only as DM refuses to render anything outside of the manor ground http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Jedi_Dade/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons%20%20pics/telecanthussmansion.jpg

(link for if someone can't load the image) http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Jedi_Dade/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons%20%20pics/telecanthussmansion.jpg

- They will have 3 rounds, in between which they instantly level up (First round, level 4. Second round, level 8. Third round, level 12). They cannot multiclass or change archetypes.

- To balance things out, the rogue was loaned his warlock friend's invisible familiar, which allows him to get sneak attack but will not grant him advantage (nor any of the other benefits you get from a familiar, since it's not his).

No, I don't accept this.
An Arcane Trickster can very well have both a familiar and mage hand.

Your rules start off at a low level, which also criples the Assasin Build. It's meant to work only in a surprise round, and at that level his damage buff is minimal, and the paladin can take it (6d6+5 generally won't kill a paladin).

Since Thief is build around Role Play, and Assasin around external circumstances (If the two will see each other when they meet, if the Assasin can get a surprice round, if he'll roll high enough and (if not) if the Assasin will get initiative to finish off the paladin) the fight is essentially Arcane Trickster VS Paladin.

Statistically, the Arcane Trickster should get Initiative (unless the Paladin is Dexterity Based). If the Arcane Trickster can Cast Mirror Image, Blink and Mage Hand (with a twist), the Paladin will have a huge dificulty to hit him. The Arcane Trickster will have Advantage on all rounds, which means that, even though the Paladin's AC is high, he will eventually drop a hit. The Paladin on the other hand must focus on getting Initiative, and hitting as fast as he can (with DS) before the Arcane Trickster "sets his stage". Due to the Arcane trickster high Stealth Ability (witch he can double the Prof), he probably can aford hiding in the Mansion long enough for the Paladin not to find him, as he sets his "death Trap" (and gets at the apropriate level). Then, if the Paladin is not dead by the expiration of his spells, he can hide again, rince and repeat.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'd like it if people addressed the essence of the argument instead of refuting a single nitpicky detail. The Paladin is not getting stuck in a burning room. The rogue has a harder time if he gets stuck by the Paladin.But the essence of the argument boils down to which side can set the terms of engagement, which depends on the nitpicky details. The paladin wins a fair fight, as one would expect; it's the rogue's job to see if she can make it unfair. In most circumstances I would argue that she could. In other words, if you want a more general conclusion, you have to make more general assumptions, like so:

Any time the rogue can effectively exploit her superior mobility, stealth and perception, she wins without letting the paladin get off any serious attacks. Any time the paladin can actually corner the rogue, the paladin will clobber the rogue barring bad luck. When one or the other occurs depends crucially on the setup, but open spaces with cover (like a forest) favor the rogue, and tight spaces with few entrances/exits favor the paladin.

[90sMusic]

Paladin can heartily outdamage a rogue if they are standing next to each other. Just blow Divine Smite on every single hit, use up all your spell slots, you'll do crazy amounts of damage the rogue can't deal with at any level. Paladin can also heal and cast other spells (including hold person).

But if the rogue was capitalizing on the environment around them to sneak attack as the first attack (especially if they surprised them and are assassin spec), then hid after every attack and kept shooting a bow over and over, the rogue could win without the paladin being able to do much in response.

I'll throw up some hypotheticals using the standard array of ability scores. Stout Halfling Rogue vs Mountain Dwarf Paladin
Was originally going to do them both up at level 1 but honestly at level 1 it depends who lands the first blow because health pools are so tiny. 9.5 average damage rapier mainhand + 2.5 average damage dagger offhand + 3.5 average sneak attack. That is 13.5 average damage total for the rogue vs 9.5 average for the paladin.

With starting gear, paladin has 55% chance to hit the rogue in starter gear. Rogue has 9% chance to hit with both weapons, 21% to hit with just the rapier, 21% to hit with just the dagger, and 49% chance to miss both attacks.

Assuming the rogue is smart and begins the fight from stealth, they would have a surprise round with advantage on the first attack which also grants sneak attack, then they're more likely to win the initiative roll to go first outside of the surprise round, unless luck was heavily against the rogue, they would win this encounter. Before the paladin even had a turn.

Meanwhile at level 20.. Assuming kind of best non-artifact gear...

Paladin with +3 platemail, +3 shield, +3 long sword... That is 26 AC. +14 to hit.
Two attacks that could deal 6d8+8 on both hits. Average 35 damage per swing, assuming it hits. Potentially 70 damage per turn.
20 Strength
20 Con
16 Charisma
12 Wisdom
10 Intelligence
8 Dexterity

227 Hitpoints

Rogue with two +3 rapiers, +3 studded leather armor, gives 20 AC and +14 to hit.
20 Dex
20 Con
14 Int
12 Wis
10 Cha
8 Str
(Two weapon fighting feat)

203 Hitpoints

Rogue needs a whopping 12 roll to hit the paladin with their absurd AC, 14 if the paladin uses shield of faith. Paladin only needs a meager 7 to hit the rogue.

Paladin using Vow of Emnity would also have advantage on attacks against the rogue, bringing that chance up to ~88% chance to hit.

Rogue on the other hand has a 16% chance to hit with both attacks, 24% chance to hit with either rapier individually, 36% chance to miss both attacks. (Percentages of all possible outcomes, not chance to hit individually)

Now the nature of the battle and how it takes place would have a huge impact on what happens. If the rogue is an assassin and jumps the paladin, the 40% (individual) chance to hit with a strike increases to 68% due to advantage. The attack would automatically critically strike.

Paladin would need to make a con save vs the rogue's Death Strike DC of 19. Paladin would have a +8 Con bonus as he lacks proficiency but has 20 con + 16 cha, so he would need a roll of 11 to beat the DC. 45% chance.

Rogue has an 87% chance of at least one of the two attacks landing which would trigger the sneak attack and automatic critical. Then he has a 45% chance for the paladin to fail his save and take double damage from that sneak attack and the associated attack.
So the breakdown would be like this...

Rogue's first round, all factors considered and initiating surprise attack from stealth:
22.528% chance to inflict 172.5 average damage
12.672% chance to inflict 165 average damage
12.672% chance to inflict 155 average damage
18.432% chance to inflict 82.5 average damage
10.368% chance to inflict 77.5 average damage
12.96% chance to miss both attacks and deal no damage

Pretty hefty damage potential. From there, rogue would no longer get sneak attack if he's meleeing and fighting one on one. Average mainhand hit drops to 12.5, average offhand hit drops to 7.5.
Assuming rogue gets in another round of attacks before paladin's turn to act by beating him in initiative, he very nearly kills him in one turn.

Paladin's turn, he can dish out a lot of punishment. Two attacks dealing 1d8+8 each plus 4th level divine smite adding another 5d8 on top of that. That's 35 damage per hit on both swings with only a 91% chance to hit when you factor his +hit vs rogue's AC and the fact paladin can get vow of enmity advantage. He could inflict 5 hits in total dealing 35 a pop before exhausting all 4th and 5th spell slots (since divine smite damage caps at 5d8). That totals 175 damage on average after 5 hits. From there, his average damage per hit drops from 35 to 30.5 for another three swings.

in 3 rounds, with two attacks per round, he would deal 205.5 damage on average, which is enough to kill the rogue.
It would take 4 rounds for the rogue to burn through all of the paladin's average health and that is assuming it hit every single attack which is not likely to happen. Rogue's hit chance was only as high as it was due to surprise attack advantage. Without the advantage, it's hit chance drops dramatically. Without future sneak attacks, even with the massive initial hit, rogue loses any way you slice it.


Change the rogue to an Arcane Trickster instead and he'll deal an average 47.5 damage per round. He'll have advantage from a class feature, but won't have an offhand attack. He could potentially deal 95 damage before the paladin gets to act by surprise rounding him, then beating him in initiative.

Due to advantage every turn, rogue gets sneak attack and chance to hit is 64%. Hit chance factored in, that averages 30.4 per round (easiest way to account for all the RNG in D&D) while the paladin averages 62.7 per round until he's out of 4th and 5h level spell slots.

Unfortunately, paladin wins again. Rogue can burn up level 1 spell slots to cast shield to add 5 to AC to make themselves harder to hit, bringing their AC up to 25 which would swing things in their favor. Paladin chance to hit would drop to 45%, 69.75% after advantage is factored in. THat brings average damage per round by paladin down to 48.825, but still beats the rogue's mediocre 30.4.

With the extra AC, health, and so on. Paladin wins in a straight up melee encounter. No way a rogue can compete, even with a sneak attack, even using arcane trickster to shield every round and get advantage on every attack and sneak attack. The paladin's divine smite and extra hitpoints and 2 attacks is just too much, rogue can't handle it. Even if the rogue used Uncanny Dodge to half one of those attacks, it still makes that 48.825 average damage per round drop to 36.6, which still beats the rogue.

That isn't even considering the fact a level 20 pally that used vow of enmity on that rogue can make an extra melee attack each turn as a reaction against the attacking rogue. So the paladin damage per round would actually be even higher.

Only way a rogue can win is to attack at a distance with a bow and hide every turn as a bonus action. Using tactics like that, rogue could win easily if paladin can never get close enough to hit them. If they start to get close, dash as a bonus instead and just keep running. Paladin can't keep up and be a threat. Pallies do have a free mount they can call on, but it has like 18 hitpoints and rogue can one-shot it to end it's advantage.

So basically, kite the paladin as an archer and you win. Try to melee one and you die. Likewise if the paladin runs, it has no prayer of escaping you because you can move faster than he does on foot while still attacking.

[Asmotherion]

Paladin can heartily outdamage a rogue if they are standing next to each other. Just blow Divine Smite on every single hit, use up all your spell slots, you'll do crazy amounts of damage the rogue can't deal with at any level. Paladin can also heal and cast other spells (including hold person).

But if the rogue was capitalizing on the environment around them to sneak attack as the first attack (especially if they surprised them and are assassin spec), then hid after every attack and kept shooting a bow over and over, the rogue could win without the paladin being able to do much in response.

I'll throw up some hypotheticals using the standard array of ability scores. Stout Halfling Rogue vs Mountain Dwarf Paladin
Was originally going to do them both up at level 1 but honestly at level 1 it depends who lands the first blow because health pools are so tiny. 9.5 average damage rapier mainhand + 2.5 average damage dagger offhand + 3.5 average sneak attack. That is 13.5 average damage total for the rogue vs 9.5 average for the paladin.

With starting gear, paladin has 55% chance to hit the rogue in starter gear. Rogue has 9% chance to hit with both weapons, 21% to hit with just the rapier, 21% to hit with just the dagger, and 49% chance to miss both attacks.

Assuming the rogue is smart and begins the fight from stealth, they would have a surprise round with advantage on the first attack which also grants sneak attack, then they're more likely to win the initiative roll to go first outside of the surprise round, unless luck was heavily against the rogue, they would win this encounter. Before the paladin even had a turn.

Meanwhile at level 20.. Assuming kind of best non-artifact gear...

Paladin with +3 platemail, +3 shield, +3 long sword... That is 26 AC. +14 to hit.
Two attacks that could deal 6d8+8 on both hits. Average 35 damage per swing, assuming it hits. Potentially 70 damage per turn.
20 Strength
20 Con
16 Charisma
12 Wisdom
10 Intelligence
8 Dexterity

227 Hitpoints

Rogue with two +3 rapiers, +3 studded leather armor, gives 20 AC and +14 to hit.
20 Dex
20 Con
14 Int
12 Wis
10 Cha
8 Str
(Two weapon fighting feat)

203 Hitpoints

Rogue needs a whopping 12 roll to hit the paladin with their absurd AC, 14 if the paladin uses shield of faith. Paladin only needs a meager 7 to hit the rogue.

Paladin using Vow of Emnity would also have advantage on attacks against the rogue, bringing that chance up to ~88% chance to hit.

Rogue on the other hand has a 16% chance to hit with both attacks, 24% chance to hit with either rapier individually, 36% chance to miss both attacks. (Percentages of all possible outcomes, not chance to hit individually)

Now the nature of the battle and how it takes place would have a huge impact on what happens. If the rogue is an assassin and jumps the paladin, the 40% (individual) chance to hit with a strike increases to 68% due to advantage. The attack would automatically critically strike.

Paladin would need to make a con save vs the rogue's Death Strike DC of 19. Paladin would have a +8 Con bonus as he lacks proficiency but has 20 con + 16 cha, so he would need a roll of 11 to beat the DC. 45% chance.

Rogue has an 87% chance of at least one of the two attacks landing which would trigger the sneak attack and automatic critical. Then he has a 45% chance for the paladin to fail his save and take double damage from that sneak attack and the associated attack.
So the breakdown would be like this...

Rogue's first round, all factors considered and initiating surprise attack from stealth:
22.528% chance to inflict 172.5 average damage
12.672% chance to inflict 165 average damage
12.672% chance to inflict 155 average damage
18.432% chance to inflict 82.5 average damage
10.368% chance to inflict 77.5 average damage
12.96% chance to miss both attacks and deal no damage

Pretty hefty damage potential. From there, rogue would no longer get sneak attack if he's meleeing and fighting one on one. Average mainhand hit drops to 12.5, average offhand hit drops to 7.5.
Assuming rogue gets in another round of attacks before paladin's turn to act by beating him in initiative, he very nearly kills him in one turn.

Paladin's turn, he can dish out a lot of punishment. Two attacks dealing 1d8+8 each plus 4th level divine smite adding another 5d8 on top of that. That's 35 damage per hit on both swings with only a 91% chance to hit when you factor his +hit vs rogue's AC and the fact paladin can get vow of enmity advantage. He could inflict 5 hits in total dealing 35 a pop before exhausting all 4th and 5th spell slots (since divine smite damage caps at 5d8). That totals 175 damage on average after 5 hits. From there, his average damage per hit drops from 35 to 30.5 for another three swings.

in 3 rounds, with two attacks per round, he would deal 205.5 damage on average, which is enough to kill the rogue.
It would take 4 rounds for the rogue to burn through all of the paladin's average health and that is assuming it hit every single attack which is not likely to happen. Rogue's hit chance was only as high as it was due to surprise attack advantage. Without the advantage, it's hit chance drops dramatically. Without future sneak attacks, even with the massive initial hit, rogue loses any way you slice it.


Change the rogue to an Arcane Trickster instead and he'll deal an average 47.5 damage per round. He'll have advantage from a class feature, but won't have an offhand attack. He could potentially deal 95 damage before the paladin gets to act by surprise rounding him, then beating him in initiative.

Due to advantage every turn, rogue gets sneak attack and chance to hit is 64%. Hit chance factored in, that averages 30.4 per round (easiest way to account for all the RNG in D&D) while the paladin averages 62.7 per round until he's out of 4th and 5h level spell slots.

Unfortunately, paladin wins again. Rogue can burn up level 1 spell slots to cast shield to add 5 to AC to make themselves harder to hit, bringing their AC up to 25 which would swing things in their favor. Paladin chance to hit would drop to 45%, 69.75% after advantage is factored in. THat brings average damage per round by paladin down to 48.825, but still beats the rogue's mediocre 30.4.

With the extra AC, health, and so on. Paladin wins in a straight up melee encounter. No way a rogue can compete, even with a sneak attack, even using arcane trickster to shield every round and get advantage on every attack and sneak attack. The paladin's divine smite and extra hitpoints and 2 attacks is just too much, rogue can't handle it. Even if the rogue used Uncanny Dodge to half one of those attacks, it still makes that 48.825 average damage per round drop to 36.6, which still beats the rogue.

That isn't even considering the fact a level 20 pally that used vow of enmity on that rogue can make an extra melee attack each turn as a reaction against the attacking rogue. So the paladin damage per round would actually be even higher.

Only way a rogue can win is to attack at a distance with a bow and hide every turn as a bonus action. Using tactics like that, rogue could win easily if paladin can never get close enough to hit them. If they start to get close, dash as a bonus instead and just keep running. Paladin can't keep up and be a threat. Pallies do have a free mount they can call on, but it has like 18 hitpoints and rogue can one-shot it to end it's advantage.

So basically, kite the paladin as an archer and you win. Try to melee one and you die. Likewise if the paladin runs, it has no prayer of escaping you because you can move faster than he does on foot while still attacking.

Arcane Trickster has access to Mirror Image, so the Paladin has a 20%-25%-33%-50% chance to miss at least 4 times (Aka 4 turns) considering the Arcane Trickster Hides before battle and sets up self buffing spells. An other spell the Arcane Trickster can logically have is Blink, meaning there is a 50% chance that, at the end of his turn, he won't be in that plane at all (witch means the paladin can't hit him wile he is away). He can easily re-emerge within 10 feet from were he was before, potentially behind something and take the hide action as a bonus action to re-aply his Sneak Attack potentially from afar with a ranged weapon). Finally, he can use Blur as a concentration spell, to add disadvantage to the Paladin wile he keeps having advantage for the whole combat. Sorry, but unless they start combat at mellee, and the Paladin wins initiative, the Arcane Trickster has a higher probability to win.

Also, no Arcane Trickster (at least with an intelligent player controlling him) would spam Shield every round with his precious spell slots, wile he can use them for much better defences (as stated above).

[Socratov]

Arcane Trickster has access to Mirror Image, so the Paladin has a 20%-25%-33%-50% chance to miss at least 4 times (Aka 4 turns) considering the Arcane Trickster Hides before battle and sets up self buffing spells. An other spell the Arcane Trickster can logically have is Blink, meaning there is a 50% chance that, at the end of his turn, he won't be in that plane at all (witch means the paladin can't hit him wile he is away). He can easily re-emerge within 10 feet from were he was before, potentially behind something and take the hide action as a bonus action to re-aply his Sneak Attack potentially from afar with a ranged weapon). Finally, he can use Blur as a concentration spell, to add disadvantage to the Paladin wile he keeps having advantage for the whole combat. Sorry, but unless they start combat at mellee, and the Paladin wins initiative, the Arcane Trickster has a higher probability to win.

Also, no Arcane Trickster (at least with an intelligent player controlling him) would spam Shield every round with his precious spell slots, wile he can use them for much better defences (as stated above).

This is the point that we arrived on in the thread: in a fair fight/duel, the paladin definitely has the advantage, but then again, a fair fight is not what the rogue is all about, and if the rogue can get the paladin to follow along (and eventually he will have to) in unfair fighting, then the rogue has all the means to win as the rogue is archetypically built for unfair play. By then you arrive at a series of Catch-22's in which the rogue has a counter for anything the paladin can do, and the paladin has a way to counter tactics used by the rogue, if the player knows what he is getting into. Now a side dicussion has started on what makes a typical paladin build and why one woudl be able to assume what a typical paladin build should be. The outcome of this matchup is solely dependant on how smart the respective players are and how much they know about the other in advance.

[Asmotherion]

This is the point that we arrived on in the thread: in a fair fight/duel, the paladin definitely has the advantage, but then again, a fair fight is not what the rogue is all about, and if the rogue can get the paladin to follow along (and eventually he will have to) in unfair fighting, then the rogue has all the means to win as the rogue is archetypically built for unfair play. By then you arrive at a series of Catch-22's in which the rogue has a counter for anything the paladin can do, and the paladin has a way to counter tactics used by the rogue, if the player knows what he is getting into. Now a side dicussion has started on what makes a typical paladin build and why one woudl be able to assume what a typical paladin build should be. The outcome of this matchup is solely dependant on how smart the respective players are and how much they know about the other in advance.

Granted, and agreed. Actually, that's the case in most VS threads.

[Socratov]

Granted, and agreed. Actually, that's the case in most VS threads.

In most matchups it will be a factor, but espcially concerning matchups with Rogue and Wizard will it be a huge factor (due to their ability to potentially benefit form intelligence and thus tactics and strategy, or beucase the class itself is especially suited to unfair fighting). In other matchups the ability to reduce damage or the abiity to nova like there is no tomorrow will dictate a lot fo the fight and make for a clearer edge.

Also, a full caster will overpower a non full caster on account of 9th lvl spells.