Optimize this Feat #14: Dual Plane Summons from Dragon #313

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects. Also, as a team, we can collectively push the limits of our apparent intelligence. (https://www.singularityweblog.com/human-swarming-and-the-future-of-collective-intelligence/)

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change.


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! The guest judge will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.

Because I have little use for dragon mag optimization in my own life, I am running optimize this feat #11 a little differently. A guest judge will arise from the masses to judge this according to the rubric. They may or may not show up, no one expressed interest in judging. So I'm just running this with the hope that we get the hero we deserve. When the contest is over, I'll make one last plea for a guest judge and then move onto #12.


Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by the guest judge, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 point.

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

BIAS
Our guest judge will not necessarily even show up, let alone be unbiased.

Thanks to a suggestion by Troacctid, this week's Feat is from Dragon Magazine #313 p.49: Dual Plane Summons

This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on October 23rd

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin
Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)): Jowgen
Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493792-Optimize-this-Feat-9-Races-of-Faerun-s-Animal-friends-p-161): Troacctid
Optimize this Feat 10A: Primary Contact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round&p=21075488#post21075488): Jormengand & WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 10B lightning round: Einhander from PHB2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round): Zaq
Optimize this Feat 11: Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 p.88 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496731-Optimize-this-feat-11-Supremely-Confident-from-Dragon-335-p-88&p=21076906): To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat 12: Spirit Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124) from Heroes of Horror p.124: Jormengand
Optimize this Feat #13: Cards Over Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501738-Optimize-this-Feat-13-Cards-over-Swords-from-Three-Dragon-Ante-web-supplement&p=21301495#post21301495) from the Three Dragon Ante Web Supplement: Darrin & Morcleon

Upcoming Schedule:

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #15 Formation expert from complete warrior p.110
Optimize this feat #16 Bloodspiked charger from PHB2
Optimize this feat #17: Betrayal of the spirit linked from Dragon #336 with guest judge _____????
Optimize this feat #18: Truebond from DMG2
Optimize this feat #19: Eldritch Corruption from Heroes of Horror p. 122
Optimize this feat #20: Imbued Healing (Complete Champion p.60)

[daremetoidareyo]

Feat Text:


Whenever you summon a creeature, you also access the raw ectoplasmic energy of the Astral Plane. You can mold and shape ectoplasm to your summoned creature, making it even more fearsome.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast any summon monster spell, ability manifest any astral construct power.
Benefit: Whenever you cast any summon monster spell, you can simultaneously manifest an astral construct power and apply its benefits to the summoned creature. You pay one half the normal cost in power points for the astral construct power (minimum 1 point). You can then apply any of the menu abilities that you could normally give the resulting astral construct to your summoned creature instead.

When I have more time, I'll find the master list of summon monsters in a handbook and post the link. Summoners Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5)

I'll also search for an astral construct handbook as well: Extended menu abilities (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c) & here's a semi Half guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15897.0).

Just a note: Optimize this feat 11 has still not been judged. This is a bad precedent walking into another dragmag optimize this feat challenge. I have little interest in dragmag feats seeing as how we don't use them in our home group so please consider volunteering to judge this bad boy.

[Jormengand]

Obviously, you'll be wanting boost construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#boostConstruct) which will go well with augment summoning, greenbound summoning, and other things that boost your summons. You can sneak metapsionics such as empower and maximise onto the astral construct power, but this is only really helpful for, say, concussion blast from menu C.

Also, with a literal reading of the text, you actually create the astral construct normally (minus the special abilities), as well as the summoned creature (plus the special abilities), so you can offload the special abilities onto a summoned monster I while halving the cost (I suggest taking energy bolt and extra buff on an owl or hawk, so you can have a flying artillery piece which is relatively difficult to kill, and also a big bruiser at half the normal number of power points, plus a first-level spell slot).

[daremetoidareyo]

Any basic build suggestions that go towards maximizing this feat?

[Troacctid]

I think Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer/(optionally Mind Mage) is the obvious route. Ardent (Creation mantle)/Cleric/Psychic Theurge is also a strong choice.

[WhamBamSam]

Depending on how strictly you read the "if you have levels in a psionic class" part of Hidden Talent, you might be able to avoid lost caster levels altogether by going Kalashtar with Hidden Talent (Astral Construct) on an ordinary summoning focused caster build and still be able to augment the Astral Construct side of the ability up to 1/2 your character level.

Shame it specifies casting a Summon Monster spell, so it won't work for an Anima Mage binding Zceryll and one of the Psionic vestiges. That could have been pretty cool.

Beyond that, I agree with Troacctid that Cerebremancer or Psychic Theurge is generally the way to go for this.

[Troacctid]

The advantage of psion is a much better power list. Advantage of ardent is faster access to high-level powers with Practiced Manifester.

There might also be some consideration to sha'ir as the traditional caster; it allows you to use both Cerebremancer and Psychic Theurge for the best dual progression. However, you'd either have to deal with MADness or hold your nose and use wilder as your manifesting class.

[Bucky]

What's wrong with wilder if you only care about astral constructs anyway?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would go with Mind Mage, at least because you can use Psiotheurgy as well. You only need the one feat to get (almost) double CL and ML on your summons and constructs. The ML increase is not that useful (ACs can't get stronger than level 9, sadly), but the increased duration is quite practical, and it makes them highly resistant to dispelling.

There are three UA conjurer ACFs, all possibly worth using. You lose your familiar, specialization spell slots and bonus feat, but you're a theurge: you can afford to lose a few slots.

I don't think psions have any comparable ACFs, and I don't think (shaper) erudite is better than (shaper) psion, in this case. You'll be preparing wizard 24h-buff/utility spells (spontaneously converting to summons), and then using your psion side for pp-efficient general-purpose solutions.

Overall, your build is something like illumian psion 3/wizard 1/cerebremancer 6/mind mage 10, for 17th-level manifesting, 15th-level casting, and ML/CL 54 (56 if Krau sigil applies to powers) for summon monster and astral construct (as well as all Metacreativity powers). You need Improved Krau Sigil at level 1 or 3, then Dual-Plane Summons and another psi-spell feat, so your early feats are spoken for (but you don't need flaws). Annoyingly, you need Spell Focus (conjuration) for Psiotheurgy, so that's level six and nine spoken for. That leaves three feats to play with; I'd suggest Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, because Mind Mage allows persisting through pp expenditure, and Psionic Meditation, because it's rather useful.

Now, good AC abilities:
There's Constrict equal to Slam damage, which has got to be pretty nice with Power Attack.
Natural Invisibility is, of course, neat - it's (Su), and only antimagic will counter it (it's 'inherent').

Some AC abilities depend on its hit dice. Are there any summons with serious HD bloat? Poison Touch + Constrict + Improved Grab, for example, would be hilarious on a HD-bloated grapple brute. Yes, freedom of movement and immunity to poison shuts it down, but that's grappling for you.

Poison Touch by itself opens up the use of venomfire, and is available at ML 7, when FoM is new and your druid/cleric friend can possibly spare a third-level slot.

[Jormengand]

I feel I should point out that a wilder with quick recovery (LoM) or Mark of the Dauntless (DMk) gets free power points to manifest powers, which becomes even more awesome with a torc of power preservation.

Something like cleric 3/wilder 3/cerebremancer 10/thaumaturgist or if you want to cheese things up even more wilder 5/ur priest 1/cerebremancer 9/constructor 5 would work.

Of course, you have to take loads of these feats and items (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c) as well as augment construct, greenbound summoning, augment summoning, and the like. Here are more tasty menu options too (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030829a).

[Troacctid]

What's wrong with wilder if you only care about astral constructs anyway?
Hey, just because you're optimizing for summons doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to leave so much value on the table. Wilders give up a ton of extra powers known for essentially no benefit.

[Nifft]

The main optimization trick I could see here is that you could put a usable-every-round ability on an otherwise long-lasting but worthless summons.

For example, the 8-hour long Summon Elysian Thrush.

So, I need a ruling: is that legal, or is "summon monster spell" limited to only spells that contain the words "summon monster" in their title?

(That would also prohibit Druid / Ardents from getting much benefit.)

[daremetoidareyo]

The main optimization trick I could see here is that you could put a usable-every-round ability on an otherwise long-lasting but worthless summons.

For example, the 8-hour long Summon Elysian Thrush.

So, I need a ruling: is that legal, or is "summon monster spell" limited to only spells that contain the words "summon monster" in their title?

(That would also prohibit Druid / Ardents from getting much benefit.)

It's ymmv ask-your-DM territory with a high chance of nope. We are going to assume that summon monster 1-9 are the only available option for the feat for the purposes of going forward. If you find an absolutely amazing summon Nat ally combo, you're welcome to post it.

[Jormengand]

If it did work with all summoning spells, it would be absolutely hilarious with the paladin-only Summon Mount spell, on the basis that some of the abilities you can get allow you to change your mount from a tough-ish horse to a psionic ectoplasmic dragon* of DEATH, forever.

*I believe the feat that lets you make it a dragon is in RotD

[VisitingDaGulag]

RAI it should. Pally's ability is a summoning of a monster. I'll explain why later

RAW its only talking about the "Summon Monster" line. I previously thought "meh" when looking at this feat. The class levels are largely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is an 8 ML and what monster is being summoned.

The problem is that the ability menus aren't that good and you usually only get one. Just one. Still, spending 8pp to get +6DR & +8Defl AC is okay on an already tanky alternate summon monster. With Magic domain and a lesser (!) rod of maximize you can use Enhanced Construction to get 120' fly, pounce and Fast Heal 2 on said land-based tanky summon. Hopefully it had a good full attack routine. Extended Construction unfortunately doesn't swap over to your summon, RAW though the RAI leans towards a yes here too. A plain old Extend Power shouldn't transfer over too, but a sympathetic DM might allow it.

Basically at the cost of some ECL, some feats, and some items you can kind of make your summons more versatile. This however, is all moot if you have to blow spell slots on short term creatures. Necromancers laugh at your petty optimization attempts.

If this works for a Special Mount, then supermounts get a small boost. For summons with combat ability, all I see for the Summon "various monster" spells that last a long time are 9th level (so not via for actual, balanced play) or all round/level. The best bet is Summon Giants off the Disciple of Thyrm list. There is of course a pseudo extend from Thaumaturgist 3 and you could probably wrangle another one somewhere else.







Are we down for RAI here? Good. Okay, let's make this 1 trick pony: Ardent 1 (Magic & Creation Mantles) / x / Cloistered Cleric 1 [Planning & Rune Domains] / x / Chameleon 5 / Halruuan Elder 1 / Thaumaturg 4 / x 6 with a Major Bloodline, either custom or Vampire. Note that Recaster, etc would work to get access to spells from funky lists.

The feats are:
F1) Halruaan Adept
F2) Able Learner
H1) Spell Focus (conjuration)
1) Overchannel
C1) Extend Spell
C2) Scribe Scroll
A1) Ectoplasmic Form (Alabaster Aerial) 40' fly for the 9th level construct and 30' for the d3 6th level ones.
3) Practiced Manifester
6) Leadership
9) Spell Thematics
T2) Augment Summoning
DCFS a Bloodline feat or wait for) Advanced Construction (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c)
DCFS a Bloodline feat or wait for) Enhanced Construction (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c)
DCFS a bought-off template feat for) Dual Plane Summons [Vampire Savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) is recommended] since it can replace your cleric dip and free up more ECL
Practical Metamagic (Extend spell) is recommended
DCFS a bought-off template feat for) Extend Power
DCFS a Bloodline feat or wait for) Extended Construction (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c)
DMM is available too. Southern Magician would allow it on the arcane spells.
Feel free to abuse Sanctum spell for 7th level spells. You still don't have 8th level spells, so you're not breaking anything.

The build comes "online" at level 9, flinging an 8th level spell via a 4th level list. At 10th level you have CL40 versions that aren't going to be dispelled. Assuming Dual Plane Summons allows Extended Construction / Extend Power to also or instead work on your 3 Hill Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#hillGiant), with Extend spell they will last 2.3 hours. This is just enough for an adventuring day. At 12th level they will last 4.6 hours which is enough for all day if you don't sleep. You just have to obliterate all your 4th level divine slots and have a cooperate RAI DM to do it.

I actually attempted to make the above kind of build 'work' years ago, but it was too much effort. The secret is, of course, RAI on the Extended construction feat. Considering that spells can do all the following, the whole build is an excersize in why feats are weak compared to feats, but I digress. If you're DM is going to say "no," just remind him that this is a lot of work just to buff some summons. You can always trade your 120' fly speed, pouncing, Fast Heal 2, 8Defl AC, and Improved Grab giant trio for a DMM(Persist) buff build that chooses from any 0th to 7th level spell [I]in the game. If he does say no, he probably isn't smart enough to ban 9th level spells, so go for those, otherwise you're only missing out on 172 8th level spells. Enjoy having 468 spell levels in 132 slots ... chosen from 3610 spells. It's a far easier, far more powerful build that I can post/link if someone wants.

[Jormengand]

What interests me is this...

Whenever you cast any summon monster spell... you can then apply any of the menu abilities that you could normally give the resulting astral construct to your summoned creature instead.

It doesn't say "The creature you summon in this way" or even "The summoned creature" (which would imply the same). It says "your summoned creature", meaning "the summoned creature which belongs to you." Through immense RAW screwery, this means that you can do the following:

- Be paladin.
- Summon mount (technically, summoning your mount is a calling effect, but it does also explicitly summon your mount as well as calling it. Weird, but useful).
- Cast any Summon Monster spell.
- Put psionic abilities on mount.
- Profit.

Of course, the challenge is to get as good a mount as possible while also having a high enough ML to put hilarious buffs on it. Let's do it.



Level
Class
Feats
Class Features


1st
Shaper 1

Mounted Combat, Skill focus (Handle animal), Practiced Manifester, Boost Construct, Advanced ConstructionB

Animal Companion, nature sense, wild empathy


2nd
Shaper 2


Woodland Stride


3rd
Druid 1/Shaper 2

Extra Spell (Protection from Evil)
Trackless Step


4th
Druid 2/Shaper 2


Resist Nature's Lure


5th
Druid 3/Shaper 2


Discipline (Shaper)


6th
Druid 4/Shaper 2
Extra Spell (Summon Monster I)




7th
Druid 4/Shaper 2/Prestige Paladin 1

Detect evil, smite evil 1/day, turn undead


8th
Druid 4/Shaper 2/Prestige Paladin 2

Divine grace, lay on hands, special mount


9th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2
Dual-plane Summons




10th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 1

Advanced Construction


11th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 2

Ecto Protection 1


12th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 3
Devoted Tracker

Combat Construction


13th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 4

Boost Construct, Ecto Protection 2


14th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 5




15th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 6
Holy Mount

Ecto Protection 3


16th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 7

Utility Construct


17th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 8

Ecto Protection 4, Boost Construct


18th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Constructor 8/Beastmaster 1
Natural Bond

Animal Companion


19th
Druid 4/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Constructor 8/Beastmaster 1

Aura of courage, divine health


20th
Druid 5/Shaper 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Constructor 8/Beastmaster 1

Wild Shape 2/day




This gives us a wonderful companion, which has both the abilities of a 12th-level animal companion (5 druid, 4 beastmaster, 3 natural bond) and also (devoted tracker) the abilities of an 11th-level (Druid with holy mount 5, prestige paladin 6) mount while also having all the possible abilities of an astral construct (ML 3 from shaper, 8 constructor, 4 from practiced manifester is enough to sink 13 points to get abilities off menu C, which can be combined into abilities from menu D, so with enough manifestations...). If you take the shaper levels before the druid levels, you can take overchannel to increase your ML if you feel like it. Torc of power preservation may also be useful.

Now, the next question is, "what stacks?" Good question. Stacking and non-stacking only apply to bonuses and penalties, or abilities which specify that they don't stack. However, some of the effects are either pointless when applied multiple times, or replacement effect. So there are four possiblities: it's a bonus and doesn't stack, it's a bonus that does stack, it's not a bonus and it's pointless to take more than one, or it's not a bonus and it's useful to take more than one. The only abilities which are bonuses are all deflection bonuses to AC, and the highest - +10 - is the only useful one, or bonuses to strength, of which there is one, at +4. So, here are two lists: what is it useful to take more than one of, and what isn't it? Oh, and three more: which are useless, and which should be taken twice before it becomes useless, and what should be taken multiple times but not forever?

Some abilities are given more than once; I'm using the 3.5 version where this is the case because of the updating rules. In some cases, this is a pity; in others, less so.

Take Zero:
Deflection/Heavy Deflection/Extreme Deflection
Lesser Metaphysical Construct/Metaphysical Construct
Claws


Take One:
Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Natural Attack
Mobility
Power Attack
Trip
Extra Attack
Improved Critical
Improved Fly
Improved Swim
Muscle
Pounce
Trample
Blindsight
Constrict
Energy Bolt
Natural Invisibility
Power Resistance
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Greater Metaphysical Construct
Dodge
Great Cleave
Stunning Fist
Tail Slap
Extra Arms
Expertise
Ectoplasmic Form
Amplified Invisibility
Extra Hard Carapace
Ultraheavy Armour

Take Twice
Dimension Slide

Take When Run Out
Power Storing etc.
Super Buff
Whitefire Aura
Spike Volley
Spike Flurry

Take forever
Buff etc.
Celerity
Resistance
Energy Touch
Fast Healing/Astral Repair
Improved Damage Reduction (after taking hardened carapace)
Poisoned Touch
Smite
Concussion
Rend
Brawn etc.
Armor Spikes/Spiked Armour
Reach
Mass Concussion

Assuming your original mount was something relatively sensible, like a heavy warhorse...

Size/Type: Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 18d8+54 (many hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Many ft. (many squares), fly 40 (average), swim 60
Armor Class: 43 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +20 natural, +10 deflect), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+26
Attack: Hoof +27 melee (1d6+many) or claw +27 melee (1d8+many) or tail slap +25 melee (2d8+many
Full Attack: 2 hooves +27 melee (1d6+many) and 4 claws +25 melee (1d8+many) and tail slap +25 melee (2d8+many) and bite +25 melee (1d4+many)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./many ft.
Special Attacks: Trip, Pounce, Trample, Constrict, Energy Bolt, Greater Metaphysical Construct, Amplified Invisibility, Dimension Slide, Whitefire Aura, Spike Volley, Spike Flurry, Poisoned Touch, Smite, Concussion (many/day), Rend, Spiked Armour, Mass Concussion (many/day)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, Blindsight 60 ft, Invisibility, Power Resistance 28, DR many/+3, Resistance to Everything Many, Fast Healing Many, Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, Command creatures of its kind, devotion
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +5
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 6
Skills: Any 21
Feats: Endurance, Run, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Natural Attack, Mobility, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Dodge, Great Cleave, Stunning Fist, Combat Expertise, Multiattack, Any 5

Just to be clear, that creature can charge as far as it likes, including an insanely long jump in its movement, then dish out a full attack which can instantly kill any eight creatures it has line of effect to (unless you're immune to physical +5 weapon attacks, and to all energy types, and death by constitution damage), then kill any number of creatures within 170 feet.

Disclaimer: This build was messed around with so many times that I've lost track of whether or not it quite works, but the basic principles should be solid.

[LordOfCain]

:smalleek: ...that's one heck of a horse.... :smalleek:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Note that the web enhancement you linked, including menu D, is for 3.0 psionics. You can no longer combine menu A choices into menu B choices; instead, you split menu B choices into menu A choices. That doesn't mean the content is totally unusable, but it does mean you can't pull from it without converting. For example, the menu D choice "Amplified Invisibility (Sp)" references a power that no longer exists; it is now the menu C choice "Natural Invisibility (Su)". If you want that ability, you have to use the 3.5 version.

[Jormengand]

:smalleek: ...that's one heck of a horse.... :smalleek:

Look at my horse, my horse is amazing...


Note that the web enhancement you linked, including menu D, is for 3.0 psionics. You can no longer combine menu A choices into menu B choices; instead, you split menu B choices into menu A choices. That doesn't mean the content is totally unusable, but it does mean you can't pull from it without converting. For example, the menu D choice "Amplified Invisibility (Sp)" references a power that no longer exists; it is now the menu C choice "Natural Invisibility (Su)". If you want that ability, you have to use the 3.5 version.

The feat itself gives you the opportunity to swap out for menu D abilities, and if there isn't a 3.5 version with the same name then unless it specifically replaces the old version - it doesn't - you can still use the 3.0 version.

[Troacctid]

The feat itself gives you the opportunity to swap out for menu D abilities, and if there isn't a 3.5 version with the same name then unless it specifically replaces the old version - it doesn't - you can still use the 3.0 version.
With minor adjustments, yes. Some updating is always going to be necessary with 3.0 psionics.

[Jormengand]

With minor adjustments, yes. Some updating is always going to be necessary with 3.0 psionics.

True. As it happens, I don't know what the power in question actually does, but I'm going to assume it's overwritten by always-on invisibility anyway. Whatever the case, it doesn't massively interfere with my flaming freezing shocking acidic sonic invisible omnipresent instant-killing horse of ultimate death.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The feat itself gives you the opportunity to swap out for menu D abilities [...]
Hmm, yes, you're right. I misread that. However, going by the most natural conversion to 3.5, that means you can't select menu D abilities at all. The feat says:
When you make a selection, that ability is permanently added to the selection from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs.No astral construct gets menu D natively. I would assume that anything that is a menu A, B, C, or D option in the feat, is added to that menu in the astral construct description (if it's added to no menu, you can't select it either, I should think). By taking the feat, you now have a menu D, with items you could pick, if you had a matching construct, which you don't.

[Endarire]

Jormengand: How do you go Druid/Prestige Paladin as a LG character when Druids can't be LG and Paladins must be LG?

[Jormengand]

Hmm, yes, you're right. I misread that. However, going by the most natural conversion to 3.5, that means you can't select menu D abilities at all. The feat says:No astral construct gets menu D natively. I would assume that anything that is a menu A, B, C, or D option in the feat, is added to that menu in the astral construct description (if it's added to no menu, you can't select it either, I should think). By taking the feat, you now have a menu D, with items you could pick, if you had a matching construct, which you don't.

I don't see this as the case: if you get a new menu D ability, you get a new menu D ability, which can be chosen using the ability in the feat that lets you choose menu D abilities.


Jormengand: How do you go Druid/Prestige Paladin as a LG character when Druids can't be LG and Paladins must be LG?

A druid who starts as NG and changes to LG needs to atone, but does not need to change her alignment back - druids only lose their abilities if they change to a prohibited alignment, not if they have a prohibited alignment. As druid is not a prestige class, they don't follow the rules which force them to continually qualify (and whether or not the rules in CW apply to all prestige classes anyway is a point of eternal contention). A single atonement spell is required, attained at the price of 450GP as a spellcasting service (plus an additional 2500 gp if the change in alignment was intentional), which is nothing compared to the price of the Torc of Power Preservation that I recommended.

Don't you just love RAW nonsense?

If this doesn't fly (it does, but so may books thrown by the DM), you can take levels of wizard instead. Why wizard? Well, there's a nice ACF that gives you an animal companion (unfortunately half-progression, but what can ya do?) and it also actually has SMI naturally and prot. evil, so you don't have to muck around with feats (alternative source spell needs to be taken so you qualify as a divine spellcaster, but that still allows you to push the attaining of most feats back three levels). Switching to cleric is also possible, though you won't have an animal companion. Irrespective, the benefits of the horse being your animal companion are relatively minimal compared to everything else, so you can just take cleric 4/shaper 2/PP 6/constructor 8 or whatever. Actually, though, you only need boost construct once (enough to take menu D abilities) and you get that from the feat, so constructor is only really necessary for one level, so you can take cerebremancer levels to make you actually good at things other than sitting on an astral horse of death (and so Holy Mount will buff up your paladin mount more). For example, if you take Clr 4/Sha 2/PP 3/Con 1/Cere 10 then you'll end up with an effective level 20 mount because of the interaction between prestige paladin and holy mount. This means that your mount will be almost as good, and in some ways better.



Essentially, though, there's nothing wrong with the essential idea, meaning that this horse should be available from relatively early on in at least a relatively basic form (deal infinite damage, have infinite hit points).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't see this as the case: if you get a new menu D ability, you get a new menu D ability, which can be chosen using the ability in the feat that lets you choose menu D abilities.
The feat doesn't allow you to choose menu D abilities on your construct, it allows you to select a menu D ability to add to the list of abilities you can use on your construct. Although you can expand that list just fine, there is no way to take them from the list and add them to your construct, under the interpretation that I think is the most natural: that abilities on menu A in the feat are added to menu A on the list of astral construct abilities, and so forth.

If you don't like that interpretation, you get a bunch of abilities that aren't in any menu at all, which also makes it impossible to select them, as far as I'm concerned.

[Jormengand]

The feat doesn't allow you to choose menu D abilities on your construct, it allows you to select a menu D ability to add to the list of abilities you can use on your construct. Although you can expand that list just fine, there is no way to take them from the list and add them to your construct, under the interpretation that I think is the most natural: that abilities on menu A in the feat are added to menu A on the list of astral construct abilities, and so forth.

If you don't like that interpretation, you get a bunch of abilities that aren't in any menu at all, which also makes it impossible to select them, as far as I'm concerned.

No, that's ridiculous. If an ability is in menu D, and it's on the list of abilities that you can take, then it is in menu D of the list of abilities you can take. There isn't a menu D? There is now. Alternatively,


If you have postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections available, you can trade them for a selection from the D menu.

Does it matter if it's a selection which is still a menu D choice? No, it only matters that it's a selection from the D menu. Which D menu? The only D menu, which is the one in the Advanced Construction feat. What's on the D menu? Why, amplified invisibility, extra hard carapace, mass concussion, super buff, toughest, ultraheavy armour and whitefire aura, of course. What's that, amplified invisibility isn't on any list? Well, it doesn't matter where it is now, because I can trade 8 menu A abilities for one selection from the D menu. Is it from the D menu? Yes! Is it on the D menu right now? I don't care!

[ExLibrisMortis]

If an ability is in menu D, and it's on the list of abilities that you can take, then it is in menu D of the list of abilities you can take.
Okay, if that's the case, then you cannot take the ability. 3.5 astral constructs cannot access menu D.

To clarify, the feat:
You can add new special abilities to the list of special abilities from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs. When you take this feat, you can select from Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities a number of Menu A special abilities that equal twice your manifester level. When you make a selection, that ability is permanently added to the selection from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs. For each manifester level that you gain, you can select two additional special abilities from Menu A. You can trade in two selections from Menu A for one selection from Menu B. You can elect to postpone your selections until you gain another level. If you have postponed a selection from an earlier level, you can trade in four Menu A selections for one selection from the Menu C. If you have postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections available, you can trade them for a selection from the D menu.
The first sentence is crucial: it sets out what you can do. The rest of the feat simply tells you how. Nowhere does it allow you to access menu D when manifesting astral construct to create an astral construct.

If you rule that the menu D selection must be added to A, B, or C (because otherwise, you wouldn't be adding it to the list you can choose from), then you have no way of deciding which menu it is, which is dysfunctional.


The Ecto Manipulation feat may get around this, if you rule that menu D is indeed the next highest menu from C, which is not spelled out but probably intended to be obvious. Not that it'd be remotely worth using: you could get a single menu D ability, and nothing else, when creating a 9th-level astral construct.


Edit again: This objection does not shut down your übermount build, but it does mean you don't need the Advanced Construction feat.

[Jormengand]

Nowhere does it allow you to access menu D when manifesting astral construct to create an astral construct.

Except:


If you have postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections available, you can trade them for a selection from the D menu.

That's pretty explicit. If you want to say that that sentence doesn't allow you to take selections from the D menu, I don't know how to help you.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's pretty explicit. If you want to say that that sentence doesn't allow you to take selections from the D menu, I don't know how to help you.
You didn't read the feat. It says: "You can add new special abilities to the list of special abilities from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs. [...] If you have postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections available, you can trade them for a selection from the D menu".

In other words, that sentence you quoted does not apply to creating the construct, only to the selection of abilities.

To drive the point further home: What is the word 'postponed' doing there, if not referring to the ability to 'delay' selections gained by levelling up/increasing ML?

The feat doesn't change the way your construct gains abilities at all. It only expands the list of options you can choose from. That is also the source of the dysfunction: it allows you to add abilities to the list, but neglects to mention how (to A? to B? to C? no category? create D?), making it difficult to select them.

[Jormengand]

You didn't read the feat.

Yes, I did.


It says: "You can add new special abilities to the list of special abilities from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs. [...] If you have postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections available, you can trade them for a selection from the D menu".

Yes, therefore menu D abilities are added to "The list of special abilities from which you can choose", and you "Can trade [eight menu A abilities] for a selection from the D menu."


In other words, that sentence you quoted does not apply to creating the construct, only to the selection of abilities.

Which is a process which takes place during the manifestation of the power:


Every time an astral construct is created, the manifester can choose to apply one special ability to the construct. When the manifester begins to manifest the astral construct power, he chooses one or more special abilities from a menu of abilities appropriate to that level of astral construct.


The feat doesn't change the way your construct gains abilities at all.

Perhaps, perhaps, it isn't meant to, but it does. It simply and explicitly does.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yes, therefore menu D abilities are added to "The list of special abilities from which you can choose", and you "Can trade [eight menu A abilities] for a selection from the D menu."

Which is a process which takes place during the manifestation of the power:

Perhaps, perhaps, it isn't meant to, but it does. It simply and explicitly does.
I'm going to try it one more time, step-by-step, because you're still wrong.

This is the benefit of the feat:
Benefit: You can add new special abilities to the list of special abilities from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs. When you take this feat, you can select from Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities a number of Menu A special abilities that equal twice your manifester level. When you make a selection, that ability is permanently added to the selection from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs. For each manifester level that you gain, you can select two additional special abilities from Menu A. You can trade in two selections from Menu A for one selection from Menu B. You can elect to postpone your selections until you gain another level. If you have postponed a selection from an earlier level, you can trade in four Menu A selections for one selection from the Menu C. If you have postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections available, you can trade them for a selection from the D menu.
The first part: You can add new special abilities to the list of special abilities from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs.
This feat allows me to expand the lists on page 186-187 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook (or the one on page 141-142 of the Psionics Handbook, if using 3.0).

The second part: When you take this feat, you can select from Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities a number of Menu A special abilities that equal twice your manifester level.
Okay.

The third part: When you make a selection, that ability is permanently added to the selection from which you can choose when manifesting astral constructs.
Right, so that's how I expand the list: select a number of Menu A special abilities, equal to however many Menu A selections I have, and add them to "the selection [...]", which is the list on EPH pages 186-187.

The fourth part: For each manifester level that you gain, you can select two additional special abilities from Menu A.
Straightforward enough, unless you start thinking that this is Menu A from page 186 of the EPH, which it isn't. The feat is still talking about Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities, Menu A.

The fifth part: You can trade in two selections from Menu A for one selection from Menu B.
Still talking about Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities, Menu A, and now also Menu B.

The sixth part: You can elect to postpone your selections until you gain another level.
Still talking about selections from Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities Menu A. Not that you'd want to delay your selections from the menu on page 186 of the EPH, obviously.

The seventh part: If you have postponed a selection from an earlier level, you can trade in four Menu A selections for one selection from the Menu C.
Right, makes sense. Still talking about Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities Menu A, and now also Menu C. Technically, this means that you can't use this the first time you take the feat, because you have no postponed selections. Better take Enhanced Construction early, to get lots of postponed selections. I think most DMs would allow you to trade up on taking the feat, though.

The eighth part: If you have postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections available, you can trade them for a selection from the D menu.
Same as above. Still talking about Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities Menu A, and now also Menu D. Apparently, you need to gain four levels after taking the feat to get a Menu D selection.

Now, going back to what you wrote, specifically:
[...] you "Can trade [eight menu A abilities] for a selection from the D menu."
This is incorrect.

If you read the eighth part, you'll see it refers to "postponed selections so that you have eight Menu A selections", not "eight menu A abilities". The word abilities does not come into it, and that's where your reasoning falls apart (you can see that even if selections equal abilities, you would have to go up four levels - to obtain the required postponed selections - to be able to select a Menu D ability, each time you manifest astral construct).

That's why I wrote:
In other words, that sentence you quoted does not apply to creating the construct, only to the selection of abilities. (which you quoted)
The selection of abilities, meaning the transfer from Table 1-1 to the EPH pages 186-187 list (I thought that was clear, apologies if it wasn't) does not happen during the manifestation of the power. It happens when you take the feat, and when you gain manifester levels (meaning either ML or class levels, depending on your preferred interpretation - ML is dysfunctional).


Summing up:
The selections mentioned in the feat are selections from Table 1-1 to the EPH pages 186-187 list ("select from Table 1-1: Advanced Construction Special Abilities a number of Menu A special abilities" (web (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c))).
The selections mentioned in the feat are not choices from the EPH pages 186-187 list to your astral construct special ability list ("choose one special ability from this menu." (EPH p. 186)).

That's the long and short of it.

This argument doesn't matter too much for Menu A, B, and C, because they can be picked natively, but Menu D can't normally be accessed in 3.5, because you can't 'trade up' - you 'trade down' instead. In 3.0, this was reversed. Clearly, the feat isn't talking about trading up actual ability choices (that are added to your construct), because it doesn't reference these mechanics. If it did, it would only have to say 'menu D is next up from C, trade up as usual'.


Here are the relevant bits:

A manifester can always substitute two abilities on a lesser menu for one choice on the next higher menu (for example, two abilities from Menu A instead of one from Menu B).

A manifester can always substitute two choices from a lesser menu for one of its given abilities (for example, if your astral construct gets one ability from Menu B, you can instead substitute two abilities from Menu A).
(I have to say that that EPH sentence isn't the prettiest I've seen.)

[Jormengand]

I'm going to try it one more time, step-by-step, because you're still wrong.

Yes, I actually am and have been reading the feat incorrectly. Well done to me. >.<

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yes, I actually am and have been reading the feat incorrectly. Well done to me. >.<
Yay for long and thorough reviews of obscure old-edition web enhancement feats! I'm glad we agree on what the feat does - the thread can now resume normal service.



It appears to me that the AC abilities should apply to all 1d4+1 monsters you can summon with SMIII+ (even without rules-wrangling to apply them to other things, such as your horse). That means you could get up to five (free action!) concussion blasts (at ML 7, so 5*4d6 force damage) per round, for the low, low price of one seventh-level slot (Maximized + Imbued Summoning) and 8 pp. Add Poison Touch and Pounce, summon 5 badgers, Imbued Summoning adds venomfire, and go to town. Five times three natural attacks plus the force blast, meaning 15d6 acid damage per CL (but the attacks need to hit, of course), plus up to 15 constitution damage and 20d6 force damage. Concussion blast can explicitly damage objects (and does not miss), so you can sunder component pouches from 170' away.

Note: non-concussion badgers can get an extra attack, instead, and maybe flight. Twenty natural attacks with poison + venomfire? Neat.

Of course, if you're set up for it, you can maybe throw these badgers at people? I imagine a badger chain-gun, shooting pounce-badgers with venomfired poison claws.

Clerics of Wee Jas can summon allips with SMIV. That's pretty cool with, say, Whirlwind Attack and Natural Invisibility, or even just Extra Attack and Pounce. Works with the above, too. Poison and incorporeal touch attacks may be a bit weird, but still good. Force ridiculous amounts of fortitude and will saves, although immunities will be extremely common.

Another interesting use: the Improved and Extreme Damage Reduction abilities increase existing DR (by 3 and 6, so 9 total), regardless of the type. ACs normally only have DR/magic, but if you can summon something with DR/muchhardertobeat, these might actually be practical.

[Jormengand]

Technically, the feat only gives the benefit to your summoned creature, singular, so the 1d4+1 concussion blasts doesn't work.

[daremetoidareyo]

Anyways, guys. Any Judges willing to step forward?

In the meantime, Optimize this Feat #15: Formation Expert from Complete Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505193-Optimize-This-Feat-15-Formation-Expert-from-Complete-Warrior-p-110&p=21365340#post21365340) is up and ready to go. When the judge is finished, I'll port the winners names over to the header posts.