CR-appropriate = Bumper Bowling

[odigity]

http://www.westparkcenter.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Bowling/bumper_lg.jpg

Does anyone else feel like CR-appropriate games (like modules, or DMs who go by the book) aren't as fun? Feels too safe. I don't want the DM to walk us into an ambush by an ancient red dragon at level 1 and laugh as we all die, but I'd like to feel like we could bite off more than we can chew if we're not cautious. You know, real danger, so that actions have consequences.

[Laserlight]

Does anyone else feel like CR-appropriate games (like modules, or DMs who go by the book) aren't as fun? Feels too safe. I don't want the DM to walk us into an ambush by an ancient red dragon at level 1 and laugh as we all die, but I'd like to feel like we could bite off more than we can chew if we're not cautious. You know, real danger, so that actions have consequences.

If you go by the guidelines on "encounter difficulties" and "number of encounters per day", then in theory your players would be feeling squeezed for resources at the end of the adventuring day--some players would be squeezed from the beginning, thinking "do I cast this spell now, or save it for later and try to get by on cantrips?"--and that's where the tension would come from.

I say "in theory" because what will actually happen is that they'll call a Long Rest as they get low on resources, unless you contrive a ticking time bomb or disallow any safe space (including Leomund's Tiny Hut and such), and do that for every adventure.

In hte campaign I just finished, I usually gave them one fight per day, or a series of linked fights where the enemies came in waves. Those were usually well into Deadly.

[CursedRhubarb]

I say "in theory" because what will actually happen is that they'll call a Long Rest as they get low on resources, unless you contrive a ticking time bomb or disallow any safe space (including Leomund's Tiny Hut and such), and do that for every adventure.

I foresee a group thinking themselves safe inside the Tiny Hut only to be woken mid rest as a Bulette rises from beneath them. (LTH only makes a dome. It's vulnerable to anything with burrow, and many forget that. Mwahahaha!)

[Zanthy1]

You would love me as a DM then. I kill players, and often will throw very difficult encounters at my party. I expect there to be casualties. Team of level 4's? How about they fight 8 goblins, 6 orcs, 2 dire wolves, and an Ogre. Did I mention the enemy reinforcements (2 more orcs and a gnome illusionist) who will show up in 1d6 rounds?

Every player was down at least once, the tank had 2 failed death saves until the bard got to him with a cure wounds. We lost the wizard.

[odigity]

You would love me as a DM then. I kill players, and often will throw very difficult encounters at my party. I expect there to be casualties. Team of level 4's? How about they fight 8 goblins, 6 orcs, 2 dire wolves, and an Ogre. Did I mention the enemy reinforcements (2 more orcs and a gnome illusionist) who will show up in 1d6 rounds?

Every player was down at least once, the tank had 2 failed death saves until the bard got to him with a cure wounds. We lost the wizard.

No, I don't think I would. As I said in my original post, I don't want a DM who gets off on murdering PCs. I want a DM creates variance in the dangers, so if you're dumb and charge head-long into those giants walking through the trees instead of hiding like a smart lvl 3 rogue, then you'll likely die.

[Segev]

It sounds like you'd prefer something where the DM has the world set up with various level difficulty dungeons or encounter sites, and you can go explore them. With good scouting and info-gathering, you can tell roughly how challenging things will be, and prepare for it. He doesn't design to your level. He just designs. And you then see what you can handle.

[odigity]

It sounds like you'd prefer something where the DM has the world set up with various level difficulty dungeons or encounter sites, and you can go explore them. With good scouting and info-gathering, you can tell roughly how challenging things will be, and prepare for it. He doesn't design to your level. He just designs. And you then see what you can handle.

That sounds about right. (Preferably something in between that and a planned adventure.)

[Segev]

That sounds about right. (Preferably something in between that and a planned adventure.)
A video game that does this is Star Control II. Look for it as "The Ur-Quan Masters," and I think you can find it fairly easily. It's fun, and the game's just a huge map to explore with tons of things going on. If you interfere, things change. If you don't, they go a particular way. And how challenging something is depends on where you go and what you've done to prepare for it.

[ad_hoc]

Have you played any of the published adventures?

I know HotDQ, OotA, and CoS are all very dangerous.

[Rysto]

The level-appropriate guidelines are only a rough guide. The actual difficulty of an encounter is going to be affected by the skill of the players in optimizing their characters, how well they use tactics in battle (especially in comparison to the level of tactics used by the DM), and a million other things that the DMG can't cover well. It's the job of the DM to tweak the DMG guidelines to their group to make sure that the players are appropriately challenged.

[odigity]

The level-appropriate guidelines are only a rough guide. The actual difficulty of an encounter is going to be affected by the skill of the players in optimizing their characters, how well they use tactics in battle (especially in comparison to the level of tactics used by the DM), and a million other things that the DMG can't cover well. It's the job of the DM to tweak the DMG guidelines to their group to make sure that the players are appropriately challenged.

That's actually what I'm trying to push back on. I think the best results would probably come from a middle ground between:


"appropriately challenged as designed by the DM for the players"


and


"completely naturalistic design, this happens to be a CR20 dragon's feeding ground and you're walking in the open, sorry"

[Pex]

Not every combat needs to be an epic doomed to die unless you're very lucky. Not every combat needs to even be "challenging". Sometimes it's just fun letting off steam blasting/hacking away against the mob of mooks. It also gives a sense of how more powerful you've become when foes who were difficult to defeat early in your adventuring career are now insignificant.

[JumboWheat01]

Like the Frost Giants in the past few strips of the comic.

Maybe try convincing your DM to go off the written word some. I know the games I've been in haven't been too hard or easy, my DM's pretty good at what he does. They have been incredibly silly at times, though.