Hexblade (Base Class) (PEACH)

[LoyalPaladin]

The hexblade is a class that has historically under performed, especially when compared to its sister class, the duskblade. With this "rework", I'm not looking to make it compete with the duskblade, but bring it closer in line and give it a different purpose. Enjoy!


Hexblade
https://gdurl.com/bI7B (http://thedurrrrian.deviantart.com/art/Cowbro-the-outlaw-sorcerer-520959795)
"If the devil isn't trying to trip you up, it's because he's already got you."
Baylor Barbee

Hunters of the arcane, eldritch warriors, and an omen of bad luck, hexblades combine powerful hexes and capable martial prowess to overcome obstacles and devastate their foes.

Hit Die
d8

Class Skills
The hexblade's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.



Table: The Hexblade
Spells per Day


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Class Features
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1st
+1
+2
+0
+2
Armored Mage (Light), Hexblade’s Curse
3
2
-
-
-
-


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3
Mage Slayer
4
3
-
-
-
-


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3
Advanced Learning, Summon Familiar
5
4
-
-
-
-


4th
+4
+4
+1
+4
Hex
6
5
-
-
-
-


5th
+5
+4
+1
+4
Mettle
6
6
2
-
-
-


6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
Advanced Learning
6
6
3
-
-
-


7th
+7/+2
+5
+2
+5
Greater Hexblade's Curse
6
6
4
-
-
-


8th
+8/+3
+6
+2
+6
Hex
6
6
5
-
-
-


9th
+9/+4
+6
+3
+6
Antimagic Presence
6
6
6
2
-
-


10th
+10/+5
+7
+3
+7
Magic Eater
6
6
6
3
-
-


11th
+11/+6/+1
+8
+3
+8
Advanced Learning
6
6
6
4
-
-


12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+8
Hex, Major Hex
6
6
6
5
-
-


13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+8
Superior Hexblade's Curse
6
6
6
6
2
-


14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+9
Aura of Unluck
6
6
6
6
3
-


15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+5
+9
Eldritch Mind
6
6
6
6
4
-


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+5
+10
Advanced Learning, Hex
6
6
6
6
5
-


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
Hexing Retaliation
6
6
6
6
6
2


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+11
Dire Hexblade's Curse
6
6
6
6
6
3


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+11
Eldritch Body
6
6
6
6A
6
5


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+12
Hex, Grand Hex, Vexing Existence
6
6
6
6
6
6



Class Features
All the following are class features of the hexblade base class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A hexblade is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, and with light shields.

Spells:
You cast arcane spells, which are drawn from the hexblade spell list (See Below). You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time.

To learn or cast a spell, you must have an Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against your spell is 10 + the spell level + your Cha modifier.

You can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Your base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Hexblade. In addition, you receive bonus spells per day if you have a high Charisma score. A hexblade's caster level is equal to his hexblade class level.

Spells Known:
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a hexblade need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. For example, at 1st level, the hexblade Kaine can cast three 1st-level spells per day — Two for being 1st level (see Table: The Hexblade), plus one thanks to his Charisma score of 15.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every odd-numbered hexblade level after that (7th, 9th, and so on), a hexblade can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the hexblade "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged.

Table: Spells Known


Level
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1st
4
1
-
-
-
-


2nd
5
2
-
-
-
-


3rd
5
2
-
-
-
-


4th
6
3
-
-
-
-


5th
6
3
1
-
-
-


6th
7
4
2
-
-
-


7th
7
4
2
-
-
-


8th
8
4
3
-
-
-


9th
8
4
3
1
-
-


10th
9
4
4
2
-
-


11th
9
4
4
2
-
-


12th
9
4
4
3
-
-


13th
9
4
4
3
1
-


14th
9
4
4
4
2
-


15th
9
4
4
4
2
-


16th
9
4
4
4
3
-


17th
9
4
4
4
3
1


18th
9
4
4
4
4
2


19th
9
4
4
4
4
3


20th
9
4
4
4
4
4



Armored Mage (Ex):
Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause spells to fail if those spells have a somatic component. A hexblade's limited focus and specialized training, however, allows you to avoid arcane spell failure so long as you stick to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavy armors, nor to heavy shields. This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.

Hexblade's Curse (Su):
A number of times per day equal to three plus his charisma bonus, as a swift action, a hexblade can unleash a curse upon a foe. The target must be visible to the hexblade and within 60 feet. The target of a hexblade's curse takes a -2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 hour thereafter. A successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 hexblade's class level + hexblade's Cha modifier) negates the effect.

Multiple hexblade's curses don't stack, and any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same hexblade's curse for 24 hours.

Any effect that removes or dispels a curse eliminates the effect of a hexblade's curse.

A hexblade can utter only one hexblade's curse per round, even if he gets multiple curses from a high charisma score.

Mage Slayer (Ex):
At 2nd level, a hexblade has become adept at fighting spellcasters. Any spellcaster you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively.

Advanced Learning (Ex):
At 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 16th level, a hexblade can add a new spell to his list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a sorcerer spell of the illusion or abjuration school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the hexblade already knows. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to that hexblade's spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on the hexblade's list. This spell does not count against a hexblade's spells known.

Summon Familiar (Ex):
At 3rd level, a hexblade can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.

The hexblade chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the hexblade advances in level, his familiar also increases in power. Treat the hexblade as a sorcerer of three levels lower for determining the familiar's powers and abilities.

If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the hexblade, the latter must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per hexblade level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a hexblade's experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar's demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, but it does not lose a level or a point of Constitution when this happy event occurs.

A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.

Hex (Sp):
Like witches, Hexblades learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch#TOC-Hex), that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 4th level, a hexblade gains one hex of his choice. She gains an additional hex every four levels attained after 4th level, as noted on Table: The Hexblade. A hexblade cannot select an individual hex more than once.

Unless otherwise noted, hexes are at-will abilities and using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the hexblade's level + the hexblade's Charisma modifier.

Mettle (Ex):
At 5th level and higher, a hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Greater Hexblade's Curse (Su):
When a hexblade attains 7th level, the penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls incurred by a target of the hexblade's curse becomes -4 instead of -2.

Antimagic Presence (Su)
At 9th level, a hexblade radiates an aura of magic supression out to 30ft. All spells cast within this aura have a 20% chance to fail. If a spell fails, the spell slot is still used and the spell cannot be recovered. A hexblade can choose a number of creatures equal to his Charisma bonus to be immune to this aura. A hexblade is always immune to his own aura. Designating individuals to be immune to Antimagic Presence is a swift action.

This ability extends to 60 feet at 14th level and 120 feet at 19th level.

Magic Eater (Su):
At 10th level, a hexblade gains spell resistance 10 + his class level. Any spell that targets the hexblade and fails to overcome the hexblade's spell resistance is consumed by the hexblade, healing the hexblade for 1d4 hit points per level of the spell that was consumed.

Major Hex (Sp):
Starting at 12th level, and every four levels thereafter, a hexblade can choose one of the witch's major hexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch#TOC-Major-Hex) whenever the hexblade could select a new hex.

Superior Hexblade's Curse (Su):
When a hexblade attains 13th level, the penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls incurred by a target of the hexblade's curse becomes -6 instead of -4.

Aura of Unluck (Su):
At 14th level, a hexblade drains the luck of anyone that would attack him. Any melee or ranged attack made against the hexblade while aura of unluck is active has a 20% miss chance. A hexblade can deactivate and reactivate this aura as a swift action.

This miss chance improves to 40% at level 19.

Eldritch Mind (Su):
At 15th level, a hexblade becomes immune to all Mind-Affecting effects. Whenever you are subject to a Mind-Affecting spell (regardless of whether the spell is harmful or beneficial to you), the spellcaster must make a Will saving throw against a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Charisma bonus or take 2d6 points of damage.

Hexing Retaliation (Ex):
At 17th level, if a hexblade takes hit point damage from a spell, he may cast a hex at the caster that damaged him as a free action.

Dire Hexblade's Curse (Su):
When a hexblade attains 18th level, the penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls incurred by a target of the hexblade's curse becomes -8 instead of -6.

Eldritch Body (Ex):
At 19th level, a hexblade has transcended mortality and become an immortal hunter of the arcane. A hexblade no longer ages and cannot be aged magically. Hexblades do not gain bonuses or accrue penalties for old age.

Grand Hex (Sp):
At 20th level, a hexblade can choose one of the following grand hexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch#TOC-Grand-Hex) whenever the hexblade could select a new hex.

Vexing Existence (Ex):
At 20th level, a hexblade becomes an inevitable and untraceable force. A hexblade is immune to all scrying and divination effects. Divination effects which specifically target them fail completely, other divination effects simply do not reveal information about the hexblade.

For example: a Legend Lore spell cast to learn about the hexblade fails, one cast to learn about his companion Alice the Blue Sorceress conveniently fails to mention the hexblade; a detect magic spell which includes the hexblade in its area fails to detect auras on the hexblade or their items, and similar spells never return auras on the hexblade; and a scrying spell cast on another creature does not show the hexblade treating them as invisible and silent (though if they affect another object its movement is shown). This does not have any effect on See Invisibility, True Seeing, or spells or effects which copy them.

Hexblade Spell List:

Candlelight (Ghostwalk)
Launch Bolt (Spell Compendium)
Launch Item (Spell Compendium)
Light Evocation (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Preserve Organ (Book of Vile Darkness)
Prestidigitation (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Repair Minor Damage Transmutation (Spell Compendium)
Resistance (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Stick (Spell Compendium)
Touch of Fatigue (Player's Handbook v.3.5)


Armor Lock (Complete Scoundrel)
Augment Familiar (Complete Warrior)
Cause Fear (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Charm Person (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Bloodletting (Complete Mage)
Catsfeet (Complete Mage)
Death's Call (Complete Mage)
Detect Weaponry (CityScape)
Disguise Self (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Distract Assailant (Complete Adventurer)
Ebon Eyes (Spell Compendium)
Erase (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Feather Fall (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Grease (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Karmic Aura (Complete Mage)
Mage Burr (Complete Scoundrel)
Peacebond (CityScape)
Phantom Threat (Complete Warrior)
Primal Hunter (Dragon Magic)
Reaving Aura (Complete Mage)
Sticky Floor (Races of the Dragon)
True Strike (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Ventriloquism (Player's Handbook v.3.5)


Adoration of the Frightful (Dragon magic)
Animate Weapon (Complete Mage)
Arcane Turmoil (Complete Mage)
Bothersome Babble (Complete Mage)
Crisis of Confidence (Heroes of Battle)
Darkness (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Divest Essentia (Magic of Incarnum)
Karmic Backlash (Complete Mage)
Knock (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Magical Backlash (Drow of the Underdark)
Primal Instinct (Dragon Magic)
Ray of Stupidity (Spell Compendium)
Shadow Double Illusion (Drow of the Underdark)
Silence (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Soul Blight Necromancy (Magic of Incarnum)
Suppress Magic (Magic of Incarnum)
Swift Ready (The Forge of War)


Arcane Sight (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Blacklight (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Control Darkness and Shadow (Champions of Ruin)
Dispel Magic (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Fracturing Weapon (The Forge of War)
Haste (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Hood of the Cobra (Complete Mage)
Hound of Doom (Complete Warrior)
Nightmare Terrain (Complete Mage)
Phantasmal Strangler (Complete Mage)
Primal Senses (Dragon Magic)
Rend Essentia (Magic of Incarnum)
Shadow Binding (Complete Arcane)
Suggestion (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Trance of the Verdant Domain (Dragon Magic)
Tremorsense (Spell Compendium)
Unbind Chakra (Magic of Incarnum)


Armor of Darkness (Spell Compendium)
Balor Nimbus (Planar Handbook)
Bite of the Werewolf (Spell Compendium)
Cursed Blade (Complete Warrior)
Deeper Darkness (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Early Twilight (Heroes of Battle)
Fear Necromancy (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Finger of Agony (Complete Mage)
Horrid Sickness (Complete Mage)
Karmic Retribution (Complete Mage)
Phantasmal Killer (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Primal Speed (Dragon Magic)
Remove Curse (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Spell Theft Abjuration (Complete Scoundrel)
Stoneskin (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Suppress Legacy (Weapons of Legacy)
Unseen Strike (Complete Mage)


Charm Person, Mass (Races of Destiny)
Dancing Blade (Player's Handbook II)
Dimension Jumper (Complete Mage)
Dismissal (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Dispel Magic, Greater (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Dominate Person (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Etherealness, Swift (Player's Handbook II)
Hold Monster (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Ironguard, Lesser (Spell Compendium)
Phantasmal Thief (Spell Compendium)
Shadow Form (Complete Adventurer)
Slashing Dispel (Player's Handbook II)
Superior Resistance (Savage Species)
Teleport (Player's Handbook v.3.5)
Touch of Adamantine (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Vulnerability (Draconomicon)

[BelGareth]

I like this.

Some points:

I don't like the pf hexes, but that's just me.
The mind blank seems kinda out of place, it always seems to be that one thing people add at high levels.

The other stuff is great!

[LoyalPaladin]

I like this.
Hooray! I saw you post about hexblades and was both excited and concerned about what you'd think about this.


I don't like the pf hexes, but that's just me.
I love witch's hexes. But I also love the witch. I figured that a hexblade would probably benefit from them, but one of the major reasons I thought to add them was Misfortune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-misfortune-su). Bad luck is something I think should be core to the hexblade and they didn't really accomplish that well when they made it...

Out of curiosity, what would you have given them in place of hexes? Just different hexes that weren't the PF version?


The mind blank seems kinda out of place, it always seems to be that one thing people add at high levels.
I'll level with you. I hate giving Mind Blank at higher levels, but this class is supposed to be an anti-mage. Since it comes online at the same level a Wizard can cast it, I think it fits this time around. Their whole shtick gets turned around by one good Dominate Person.

Any other suggestions instead?


The other stuff is great!
I'm so glad you think so. I was actually concerned I'd get a lot of flack for Hexing Retaliation.

[Grand Arbiter]

First off, typo:
Hex (Sp):
Like witches, Hexblades learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 4th level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional 4 levels attained after 4th level, as noted on Table: Hexblade. A hexblade cannot select an individual hex more than once.


More edited in shortly, I'm a slow typer :smallredface:

...Aaaaaand here's some more commentary:

I love witch's hexes. But I also love the witch. I figured that a hexblade would probably benefit from them, but one of the major reasons I thought to add them was Misfortune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-misfortune-su). Bad luck is something I think should be core to the hexblade and they didn't really accomplish that well when they made it... I think they're a brilliant addition, but I'm not sure all of them would be appropriate. Witch's Hut (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/grand-hexes/hex-grand-witchs-hut-su) from the Grand Hexes, for example, isn't something I'd expect for a Hexblade. You may want to make a narrower list for use with this class.


I'll level with you. I hate giving Mind Blank at higher levels, but this class is supposed to be an anti-mage. Since it comes online at the same level a Wizard can cast it, I think it fits this time around. Their whole shtick gets turned around by one good Dominate Person.

Any other suggestions instead? Knowing it's meant to be an anti-caster helps. Mettle/Improved Mettle may be warranted, as may specifically anti-enchantment stuff. Maybe bump up the Fortitude or Reflex saves, too.

Fluff-wise, the anti-mage part needs to be better incorporated. It feels like it was shoved in as filler at the moment.
Similarly, I'd suggest you throw some more debuffs on the spell list. Higher-level spells, to be precise.


I'm so glad you think so. I was actually concerned I'd get a lot of flack for Hexing Retaliation.
•How would it interact with the curses being once/round?

•An idea I had, maybe allow the hexblade to interrupt a spell that is targeting him/her (specifically. Rays/orbs, not fireball.) with the curse as an immediate action. The caster is curseded and must make a concentration check to finish the spell, or it is wasted.



Also, T.G. Oskar's Bez-Kismet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?153696-The-Bez-Kismet-or-a-rebalanced-Hexblade-with-a-much-more-original-name!) could be worth a glance-over. It's his take on the Hexblade, focusing heavily on debuffs. (He also has a paladin re-make that may be worth a read :small wink:)

Edit 2:His paladin should be in here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling).

[BelGareth]

Out of curiosity, what would you have given them in place of hexes? Just different hexes that weren't the PF version?


I'll level with you. I hate giving Mind Blank at higher levels, but this class is supposed to be an anti-mage. Since it comes online at the same level a Wizard can cast it, I think it fits this time around. Their whole shtick gets turned around by one good Dominate Person.

Any other suggestions instead?


I see you don't have arcane resistance?

You could add that, and then improve upon your mageslayer theme, say, casting a spell you threaten provokes (ontop of failing)
Spell deflection x levels per day
Gain bonus damage vs arcanists
deflect spells that target you with a weapon like deflect arrows

Replace mindblank with SR maybe?
Add some kind of spellwarped feature, where if your SR works, you gain an ability?

Also, no dark companion ACF?
EDIT: oh and Fort should be good.

[LoyalPaladin]

First off, typo:
Woops! Fixed it.


I think they're a brilliant addition, but I'm not sure all of them would be appropriate. Witch's Hut (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/grand-hexes/hex-grand-witchs-hut-su) from the Grand Hexes, for example, isn't something I'd expect for a Hexblade. You may want to make a narrower list for use with this class.
I wasn't too concerned about people picking bad hexes. You only get one Grand Hex and if someone really wants to waste it on Witch's Hut... who am I to stop them? Haha. I'd assume Fortune, Cackle, Sleep, Misfortune, etc would be the prime choices.


Knowing it's meant to be an anti-caster helps. Mettle/Improved Mettle may be warranted, as may specifically anti-enchantment stuff. Maybe bump up the Fortitude or Reflex saves, too.
They get Mind Blank to deal with anything enchantment... Mettle/Improved Metal was dropped, but I might toss that back in there. I was concerned about too many class features making it unbalanced.

You're the second person to recommend I bump saves, so I will.


Fluff-wise, the anti-mage part needs to be better incorporated. It feels like it was shoved in as filler at the moment.
Hmmm. Can you expand on that?


Similarly, I'd suggest you throw some more debuffs on the spell list. Higher-level spells, to be precise.
I wont go past 5th level spells, but what spells would you suggest?


•How would it interact with the curses being once/round?
He can't retaliate with his Hexblade's Curse ability. He retaliates with a Hex.


•An idea I had, maybe allow the hexblade to interrupt a spell that is targeting him/her (specifically. Rays/orbs, not fireball.) with the curse as an immediate action. The caster is curseded and must make a concentration check to finish the spell, or it is wasted.
I'm concerned it'd feel too much like a 4e class or too powerful then...


Also, T.G. Oskar's Bez-Kismet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?153696-The-Bez-Kismet-or-a-rebalanced-Hexblade-with-a-much-more-original-name!) could be worth a glance-over. It's his take on the Hexblade, focusing heavily on debuffs. (He also has a paladin re-make that may be worth a read :smallwink:)
I'll look it over!

Thanks for all the input!


I see you don't have arcane resistance?
I dropped that class feature because they can now cast Superior Resistance.


You could add that, and then improve upon your mageslayer theme, say, casting a spell you threaten provokes (ontop of failing)
Doesn't this already happen?


Spell deflection x levels per day
Do you have an example of this in a class?


Gain bonus damage vs arcanists
I guess I automatically assumed that every Hexblade would pick up magebane weapons!


deflect spells that target you with a weapon like deflect arrows
Hmmm....


Replace mindblank with SR maybe?
Check out magic eater. I'm actually one of the largest opponents of SR on PC's, since it never works. But I think in this one case it will work just fine.


Add some kind of spellwarped feature, where if your SR works, you gain an ability?
Magic eater covers this base too.


Also, no dark companion ACF?
I didn't design any ACF's for this class.


EDIT: oh and Fort should be good.
I was concerned that'd be too good. You think it'd be alright?

[BelGareth]

Good fort? definitely. No class should have 1 good save. :smallsigh:

Hmm, you have several good points about magic eater.

Occult slayer has a similar (or same?) ability for the spell deflection, so you could mirror/copy that.

Ah, I misread mageslayer....why not just grant the feat of the same name, and that way, the hexblade qualifies for the other feats, perhaps add a caveat that you do not lose CL from taking them

[Grand Arbiter]

I second a good Fortitude save. If this is meant to be able to be front-line, a good Fortitude is necessary.

[LoyalPaladin]

I second a good Fortitude save. If this is meant to be able to be front-line, a good Fortitude is necessary.
I'll get on that. I responded to your other post above, by the way!


Good fort? definitely. No class should have 1 good save. :smallsigh:
I shall make it so!


Hmm, you have several good points about magic eater.
I think it's better than magic eating armor, but not overly powerful. It stays relevant, though! Considering almost everything a party will face will be a higher level than them, spell resistance is almost always terrible.


Occult slayer has a similar (or same?) ability for the spell deflection, so you could mirror/copy that.
Oh, so like Spell Turning... hmm... I'm not sure, I don't want to overload on immediate actions and since they basically get immediate heals and they definitely get immediate actions, I feel like that might be too strong at this point. I mean, I guess they'll never be any higher than tier 3 anyways...


Ah, I misread mageslayer....why not just grant the feat of the same name, and that way, the hexblade qualifies for the other feats, perhaps add a caveat that you do not lose CL from taking them
I'm always apprehensive about giving feats out in a class. I've gotten flack for it on a few of my homebrew submissions from a few different users...

Edit:
Fortitude updated to good!

[Grand Arbiter]

Original post #8 above. Will be edited out momentarily to avoid double posting
Nevermind. I'm way too slow. I actually got logged out while typing this. And this wasn't the first time I've had that happen...


Hmmm. Can you expand on that?
When I think of a Hexblade, I think of Curses and Hexes; depowering your enemies in a significant way. While some of the curses may debilitate a caster more than a non-caster, such as a direct debuff to caster level, stuff tailored to slaying mages feels like it comes a little out of left field. Being able to resist curses, enchantments, etc. however would fit, as they would be protected against their own effects. (like dragons and their elements)

Basically, some good fluff is needed to tie it in.

I wont go past 5th level spells, but what spells would you suggest?
Besides the Bestow Curse spell, and any potential relations, I have no idea. My grasp of the many, many sourcebooks & spells in 3.5 is rather weak compared to a lot of people on the forum.


He can't retaliate with his Hexblade's Curse ability. He retaliates with a Hex.
...I definitely did not read that correctly. :smallredface:


I'm concerned it'd feel too much like a 4e class or too powerful then...
Maybe as an Epic ability then? It just flew into my head, so I figured I'd share.


I'm always apprehensive about giving feats out in a class. I've gotten flack for it on a few of my homebrew submissions from a few different users...It can depend heavily on the feat that's given out. A clause enabling the choice of another feat if it is already possessed may be a good idea.

[LoyalPaladin]

Nevermind. I'm way too slow. I actually got logged out while typing this. And this wasn't the first time I've had that happen...
At least your grammar is good! Quality over quantity. :smallwink:


When I think of a Hexblade, I think of Curses and Hexes; depowering your enemies in a significant way. While some of the curses may debilitate a caster more than a non-caster, such as a direct debuff to caster level, stuff tailored to slaying mages feels like it comes a little out of left field. Being able to resist curses, enchantments, etc. however would fit, as they would be protected against their own effects. (like dragons and their elements)
I think the way this class goes about slaying mages, is by not being slain themselves. Mages encounter all kinds of problems when near a hexblade. As far as pumping out damage goes... that sounds sort of like a job for the character builder. I might be wrong there. Some good ol' power attack with a good weapon sounds like the solution to mages that can't hurt you haha. It is almost dangerous to cast spells at a Hexblade here, because you run the risk of healing them.


Basically, some good fluff is needed to tie it in.
I'm a big fan of fluff! Though, it seems this forum isn't a big fan of class specific fluff. They're more a "Let me use the mechanics and build my own fluff." Usually... Hmmmm.


Besides the Bestow Curse spell, and any potential relations, I have no idea. My grasp of the many, many sourcebooks & spells in 3.5 is rather weak compared to a lot of people on the forum.
It took me a long time to learn all the source books and I still end up referencing things like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?18512-Common-Acronyms-Abbreviations-and-Terms).


...I definitely did not read that correctly. :smallredface:
I'm guilty of this often, don't worry.


Maybe as an Epic ability then? It just flew into my head, so I figured I'd share.
That's a good idea. Maybe I'll make an [Epic] section for this at some point. Could be fun! Take 30 levels in Hexblade? Sounds good to me.


It can depend heavily on the feat that's given out. A clause enabling the choice of another feat if it is already possessed may be a good idea.
I like that idea, I'll probably use that. In terms of letting them qualify for other feats with Mage Slayer as a prereq, I'll do that too, but those feats make me cry and you should know that.

[Grand Arbiter]

At least your grammar is good! Quality over quantity. :smallwink: I took AP English my last two years in high school, so I should hope so. :smallwink:


I'm a big fan of fluff! Though, it seems this forum isn't a big fan of class specific fluff. They're more a "Let me use the mechanics and build my own fluff." Usually... Hmmmm.
I suppose there are some classes, like Draken's Evolutionist, where throwing standard fluff out the window makes sense due to how customizable it is.

Personally, I would write good fluff and then when somebody didn't like it, tell them they can take the mechanics and write their own fluff for it to fit their needs.

Having fluff can help tie things together, and can give someone ideas for their character.


It took me a long time to learn all the source books and I still end up referencing things like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?18512-Common-Acronyms-Abbreviations-and-Terms)
That is ten shades of awesome and useful. I'm going to be stashing a link in my homebrew signature very shortly.



That's a good idea. Maybe I'll make an [Epic] section for this at some point. Could be fun! Take 30 levels in Hexblade? Sounds good to me.
Mwu-ha-ha-... Evil purple text? I don't know what you're talking about..... *whistles innocently*


I like that idea, I'll probably use that. In terms of letting them qualify for other feats with Mage Slayer as a prereq, I'll do that too, but those feats make me cry and you should know that.
If the feats in the book stink worse then Pepé Le Pew at a garbage dump, brew some replacements.

[LoyalPaladin]

Personally, I would write good fluff and then when somebody didn't like it, tell them they can take the mechanics and write their own fluff for it to fit their needs.

Having fluff can help tie things together, and can give someone ideas for their character.
I did add the blurb at the beginning!


Hunters of the arcane, eldritch warriors, and an omen of bad luck, hexblades combine powerful hexes and capable martial prowess to overcome obstacles and devastate their foes.
Perhaps that's not enough? :smallconfused:


That is ten shades of awesome and useful. I'm going to be stashing a link in my homebrew signature very shortly.
I actually stash links for helpful threads, or threads I like, in my extended signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19056348&postcount=125). That way I can keep my homebrew signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19414785&postcount=272) stocked with nothing but homebrew!


Mwu-ha-ha-... Evil purple text? I don't know what you're talking about..... *whistles innocently*
*stares in lawful good*

To be honest, I would actually consider 20+ levels of this hexblade. *winks and nudges BelGareth*


If the feats in the book stink worse then Pepé Le Pew at a garbage dump, brew some replacements.
I'll leave that to more experienced brewers, like Zaydos.

[Grand Arbiter]

I did add the blurb at the beginning!
Perhaps that's not enough? :smallconfused:
It gives a description/overview, but something with a pinch of flavor to show how you see it may help pull it together. Either a quote or a small excerpt would be my suggestion.

I'll reference a recent homebrew contest entry of mine: The Taldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20952974&postcount=8). I had a substantial opening passage, (probably more than is/was needed), and then I had a small blurb:
Built as machines of war, the Taldar are intelligent constructs capable of prolonged conflict. They lack some of the traditional immunities of constructs, but are typically more intelligent and better able to think and adapt to new situations.
Something like this ^ serves as a thumbnail so people have an idea of what it is.



I actually stash links for helpful threads, or threads I like, in my extended signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19056348&postcount=125). That way I can keep my homebrew signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19414785&postcount=272) stocked with nothing but homebrew!I'm waiting until I have a few more things to store in one. Maybe some quotes or more character/game listings.


*stares in lawful good*

To be honest, I would actually consider 20+ levels of this hexblade. *winks and nudges BelGareth*
I most certainly would as well.


I'll leave that to more experienced brewers, like Zaydos.What are the feat names and sources out of curiosity?
I may try to remake them if they don't seem too difficult to re-do.
ZAYDOS ZAYDOS ZAYDOS
...worth a shot.

[LoyalPaladin]

It gives a description/overview, but something with a pinch of flavor to show how you see it may help pull it together. Either a quote or a small excerpt would be my suggestion.

I'll reference a recent homebrew contest entry of mine: The Taldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20952974&postcount=8). I had a substantial opening passage, (probably more than is/was needed), and then I had a small blurb:
Something like this ^ serves as a thumbnail so people have an idea of what it is.
I may add a picture and small quote to it. I don't want to over-saturate this post, since people might not even like it. :smallfrown:


I'm waiting until I have a few more things to store in one. Maybe some quotes or more character/game listings.
You can always head over to the recruitment page, they usually have good games running...


I most certainly would as well.
That is what I like to hear!


What are the feat names and sources out of curiosity?
Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection. They're all from Complete Arcane.


I may try to remake them if they don't seem too difficult to re-do.
They're good feats, unless you're a mage yourself.


ZAYDOS ZAYDOS ZAYDOS
...worth a shot.
Usually it helps do yell something like "I'm going to use my class features to sunder that evil item in your horde!"

[Grand Arbiter]

You can always head over to the recruitment page, they usually have good games running...
I'm in the midst of applying for a pair of games at the moment. :smallbiggrin: Time will tell if I get in.


Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection. They're all from Complete Arcane.
They're good feats, unless you're a mage yourself.I'll take a swing after I go get something to eat. I'm going to need to crack open my PDF library to read about Binders/Vestiges in Tome of Magic anyway.

I take it being able to continue to spell cast is a priority?

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm in the midst of applying for a pair of games at the moment. :smallbiggrin: Time will tell if I get in.

I'll take a swing after I go get something to eat. I'm going to need to crack open my PDF library to read about Binders/Vestiges in Tome of Magic anyway.

I take it being able to continue to spell cast is a priority?
Very nice!

I'd be surprised if someone hasn't brewed replacement feats yet. Sorry for the short response. On mobile.

[Zaydos]

Since I was invoked.

I'm not sure I like Magic Eater. SR 14 + Class level means that if Assay SR isn't a factor it'll stop 65% of spells from equal level casters, monsters usually cast SLAs at no higher than CR or a bit under, boss casters are stopped more than 50% of the time, or spend feats to mitigate which means the boss is weaker elsewise (and the ability remains relevant). This is without Assay SR, but Assay SR skews all SR and you can't really balance around it because 90% of enemies lack it. I'd suggest dropping it to 10 + level because it also turns the spell into healing (or 12 + level without).

That said I'd give them Mettle. Not Improved Mettle, improved mettle is in general a bad idea (I've done it before, I was young and stupid then). Reflex saves come in two types: Reflex halves or non-damaging effect reflex negates; technically Flaming Sphere is Reflex negates damage but there are about 2 effects in that category. Evasion turns Reflex halves into Reflex negates, and improved evasion halves the base damage. This means Improved Evasion halves an unlikely situation.

Fortitude (and Will saves) however come in primarily 2 types: Negates horrible thing and reduces horrible thing to slap on the wrist. The latter denotes one that is harder to resist. Mettle makes them both negates horrible things. This is fluffy, cool, and not as strong as Evasion despite covering 2 saves. Improved Mettle changes the latter, more common type into, 'fail save take ~10%'. It is much stronger than Improved Evasion, almost the same as blanket immunity to a mass of effects, and creates weird verisimilitude issues where they end up having to game your Improved Mettle. It's a mess and I'd always advise against it.

Also I don't really like Mind Blank (making them anti-mages is kind of interesting, but not where I'd go with the traditionally Necro/Ench focused debuffers). It's powerful, but the class is already a duskblade that can swift action inflict crippling debuffs (Will negates though), has an array of at-will special abilities in the form of hexes, and perhaps most importantly it undercuts their capstone. Besides immunity to divination needing more definition (if I cast legend lore to learn about Bob the Generic Cleric who adventures with the Hexblade do I hear about the Hexblade? How is it edited out if it is? If I cast Commune and ask a god about it can the god not tell me? Can the god not know? The latter is more than immunity to divination. If I'm a hexblade and invisible can see invisibility see me?). The only clear cut thing that immunity to divination gives you that Mind-Blank doesn't is immunity to Discern Location, and probably Detect X spells (though they don't actually directly affect or target you so it's actually questionable, but I'd say stopping Detect X spells is reasonable).

Also on Mage Slayer, they're decent feats, unless you're a caster. They're not top tier, Pierce Magical Concealment requires a bit too much investment, and Pierce Magical Protection ought to be more clear on what counts as a spell that grants an AC bonus (see threads on does polymorph). They wouldn't really be near the top of a list to fix, though. If I were to 'fix' them I can see three options: Make it so PMP and PMC don't require Mage Slayer but BAB +2 and Spellcraft 3 ranks, and make Mage Slayer also grant a bonus to damage (or attacks) against casters, or something like each one adds +1 damage against creatures that can cast spells (or use SLAs?). Other option is to remove/halve their CL penalty so anti-mage gish can be more of a thing. Maybe add a few feats to the feat tree, like...

Spell Parry [General]
Prerequisites: Mage Slayer, Spellcraft 2 ranks.
Benefit: 1/encounter when you are targeted with a spell (or spell-like ability) that requires an attack roll or must make a saving throw against a spell (or spell-like ability) you may attempt to parry it as an immediate action. Make an attack roll with a held weapon and use the result in place of your AC or saving throw. If you succeed on a save using this ability you take no effect as if the spell allowed a save to negate, even if normally it'd have a half or partial effect on a successful save.

Might be too strong, also does nothing to stop Blasphemy spam from Pit Fiends/Balors.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm not sure I like Magic Eater. SR 14 + Class level means that if Assay SR isn't a factor it'll stop 65% of spells from equal level casters, monsters usually cast SLAs at no higher than CR or a bit under, boss casters are stopped more than 50% of the time, or spend feats to mitigate which means the boss is weaker elsewise (and the ability remains relevant). This is without Assay SR, but Assay SR skews all SR and you can't really balance around it because 90% of enemies lack it. I'd suggest dropping it to 10 + level because it also turns the spell into healing (or 12 + level without).
I've got a really sour taste in my mouth about spell resistance on PC's. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388815-Is-spell-resistance-terrible)

I've never once had my spell resistance matter as a PC, that includes my 5 + Paladin level from my holy avenger and my 11 + hit die from drow. So I'm actually surprised that you think SR 14 is too high. Your math has always been on point when you break it down for me and I do really value your opinion when it comes to mechanics and design. It's just that in my experience that SR is absolutely terrible on PC's, since monsters are usually higher "level" than PC's and usually higher CR than is meant for a certain ECL party after any amount of optimization. That's just my two cp, though.

This ability was closely based on the Magic Eating enchantment from Complete Arcane which, in my opinion, is terrible but cool. SR 13 is awful and a d8 of temporary hit points is worthless past level 5ish. Especially since it is a +3 enchantment.


That said I'd give them Mettle. Not Improved Mettle, improved mettle is in general a bad idea (I've done it before, I was young and stupid then). Reflex saves come in two types: Reflex halves or non-damaging effect reflex negates; technically Flaming Sphere is Reflex negates damage but there are about 2 effects in that category. Evasion turns Reflex halves into Reflex negates, and improved evasion halves the base damage. This means Improved Evasion halves an unlikely situation.
Are you saying you'd give them Mettle in place of Magic Eater, or in addition to it?


It's a mess and I'd always advise against it.
I will put that in my Zaydonomicon. "Thou shalt never giveth a class Improved Mettle!"


Also I don't really like Mind Blank (making them anti-mages is kind of interesting, but not where I'd go with the traditionally Necro/Ench focused debuffers). It's powerful, but the class is already a duskblade that can swift action inflict crippling debuffs (Will negates though), has an array of at-will special abilities in the form of hexes, and perhaps most importantly it undercuts their capstone.
The class already feels like an anti-mage to me, but just a really bad one. Hexblade is just plain terrible compared to Duskblade, which saddens me. Mind Blank is just traditionally the go-to "no thank you" for my control spells, perhaps it would make more sense if I clarified my intent with the capstone...


Besides immunity to divination needing more definition (if I cast legend lore to learn about Bob the Generic Cleric who adventures with the Hexblade do I hear about the Hexblade? How is it edited out if it is? If I cast Commune and ask a god about it can the god not tell me? Can the god not know? The latter is more than immunity to divination. If I'm a hexblade and invisible can see invisibility see me?). The only clear cut thing that immunity to divination gives you that Mind-Blank doesn't is immunity to Discern Location, and probably Detect X spells (though they don't actually directly affect or target you so it's actually questionable, but I'd say stopping Detect X spells is reasonable).
Okay, so I was trying to go in the direction of Vecna Blooded minus the whole "nobody knows who you are" bit. That said, I was also attempting to make them immortal, which might have been a mistake. I was aiming for the whole "You don't know when he'll strike, where he'll strike from, or how he'll do it." Type vibe. Hmmm.


Also on Mage Slayer, they're decent feats, unless you're a caster. They're not top tier, Pierce Magical Concealment requires a bit too much investment, and Pierce Magical Protection ought to be more clear on what counts as a spell that grants an AC bonus (see threads on does polymorph). They wouldn't really be near the top of a list to fix, though. If I were to 'fix' them I can see three options: Make it so PMP and PMC don't require Mage Slayer but BAB +2 and Spellcraft 3 ranks, and make Mage Slayer also grant a bonus to damage (or attacks) against casters, or something like each one adds +1 damage against creatures that can cast spells (or use SLAs?). Other option is to remove/halve their CL penalty so anti-mage gish can be more of a thing.
I agree with all of the above. Basically removing their CL penalty makes them more worth it to me, in all honesty. You can bite the bullet on one with Practiced Spellcaster, but not two.


Spell Parry [General]
Prerequisites: Mage Slayer, Spellcraft 2 ranks.
Benefit: 1/encounter when you are targeted with a spell (or spell-like ability) that requires an attack roll or must make a saving throw against a spell (or spell-like ability) you may attempt to parry it as an immediate action. Make an attack roll with a held weapon and use the result in place of your AC or saving throw. If you succeed on a save using this ability you take no effect as if the spell allowed a save to negate, even if normally it'd have a half or partial effect on a successful save.

Might be too strong, also does nothing to stop Blasphemy spam from Pit Fiends/Balors.
That is cool. I would take that feat. It feels a little like a ToB counter or maybe like a 4th edition encounter power, but I like it. It is incredibly rare for me to compliment something I say reminds me of ToB or 4th edition, so the fact that this reminds me of both and I still like it is a big deal.

[Snowbluff]

LP, at 14+HD, spells will fail 70% of the time. Make it 10+HD at best, and leave it alone. SR is usually bad on PCs because it is hard to get and messes with friendly spells (standard action to suppress), not because it's good.

Also, the curse wording is redundant. As a supernatural ability, the default is to give 10+ 1/2 HD + Ability Modifier. Keying it to Hexblade level instead makes the class less dip friendly.

And I just plain don't like Mage Slayer. No counterplay there. Oh and antimagic prescence with that and the 14+hD spell resistance you are immune to spells unless the caster makes a 20 on their caster level check. What the ****?

Personally I do like the idea of having an assortment of spells + hexes. If I were to make a full warlock reword I'd do something similar. I'm not sure about using the PF hexes, though. I don't find them very interesting for them most part.

[LoyalPaladin]

LP, at 14+HD, spells will fail 70% of the time. Make it 10+HD at best, and leave it alone. SR is usually bad on PCs because it is hard to get and messes with friendly spells (standard action to suppress), not because it's good.
I'll adjust it to 10.


Also, the curse wording is redundant. As a supernatural ability, the default is to give 10+ 1/2 HD + Ability Modifier. Keying it to Hexblade level instead makes the class less dip friendly.
That's the quote from the original class...


And I just plain don't like Mage Slayer. No counterplay there. Oh and antimagic prescence with that and the 14+hD spell resistance you are immune to spells unless the caster makes a 20 on their caster level check. What the ****?
Ohhh. I didn't think about that. Yeah, I'll adjust some wording here.

Why don't you like MageSlayer? It's basically just the feat.


Personally I do like the idea of having an assortment of spells + hexes. If I were to make a full warlock reword I'd do something similar. I'm not sure about using the PF hexes, though. I don't find them very interesting for them most part.
I really like PF hexes. Like, I have an unhealthy obsession with them.

[Snowbluff]

Fixing the Curse DC can be just one more thing we fix about the class! :)

And the classes hurt most by mageslayer are other hexblades and similar classes that would want to stay in melee.

[Zaydos]

For clarity I was saying Mettle in addition to Magic Eater. Make the latter reasonable and mettle, while a strong ability, has always been a big part of hexblade and is the big anti-mage ability (I'd say it fails but there are spells like Avasculate and Stinking Cloud).


Fixing the Curse DC can be just one more thing we fix about the class! :)

I feel the need to note that almost every class derived Su ability derives its DC off of class level not hit dice (binder, monk, hexblade, prcs). The exception may be Shadowcaster which as written the specific rule for mystery DCs overrides it and bases them off of effective spell level still.

[LoyalPaladin]

Fixing the Curse DC can be just one more thing we fix about the class! :)
I'm leaning towards leaving the DC, to make it less dip friendly. Let me look at the original class again, I may have altered it.


And the classes hurt most by mageslayer are other hexblades and similar classes that would want to stay in melee.
It shouldn't be a big deal then? Most "mage hunters" are going to want Mage Slayer and this is a free better version. If you manage to get the drop on a caster, this is great.


For clarity I was saying Mettle in addition to Magic Eater. Make the latter reasonable and mettle, while a strong ability, has always been a big part of hexblade and is the big anti-mage ability (I'd say it fails but there are spells like Avasculate and Stinking Cloud).
What level would you recommend adding it in?


I feel the need to note that almost every class derived Su ability derives its DC off of class level not hit dice (binder, monk, hexblade, prcs). The exception may be Shadowcaster which as written the specific rule for mystery DCs overrides it and bases them off of effective spell level still.
That what I thought, but I wasn't sure...

Edit:
Zaydos, how would you word the Antimagic Presence to make it so spells were cast like they were cast by someone 5 levels lower? Not so that the caster suffers an overall -5 to all casting. Example: Disintegrate cast by a 20th level caster functions like it was cast by a 15th level caster, but they still get their full caster level to overcome spell resistance.

I'm also curious about how you'd accomplish what I was aiming at with the capstone.

[Zaydos]

It shouldn't be a big deal then? Most "mage hunters" are going to want Mage Slayer and this is a free better version. If you manage to get the drop on a caster, this is great.

The point there, I want to say, is that Mage Slayer is anti-hexblade, anti-duskblade, anti-paladin more than it is against wizard or sorcerer who will just take the AoO to get out of melee range and then cast the spell. Combat Reflexes + Trip can get around this but that makes you MAD (Str for damage, at least for PA, Dex for AoOs, Con because everyone needs Con, Int 13+ for Combat Expertise, and Cha for class features).


What level would you recommend adding it in?

I'd either put it at 5th and Magic Eater at 9th, or put it at 9th.


That what I thought, but I wasn't sure...

There are a few that use


Edit:
Zaydos, how would you word the Antimagic Presence to make it so spells were cast like they were cast by someone 5 levels lower? Not so that the caster suffers an overall -5 to all casting. Example: Disintegrate cast by a 20th level caster functions like it was cast by a 15th level caster, but they still get their full caster level to overcome spell resistance.

Probably make it suffer -5 to CL and just put the Hexblade's SR low enough that it's reasonable with that. Let me repost the Glyph Knight and look at its Abjuration ... nope those retroactively lower the CL of spells on you as they slowly consume them (yum spells). Alrighty then. I'll do this then repost Glyph Knight.

Beginning at 10th level a hexblade radiates an aura of magical suppression out to 30 ft. Enemies (I'd probably make this not be party friendly myself for verisimilitude reasons, or make it so they could mark creatures to be immune, why does this affect the invisible imp the hexblade is unaware of but does not affect the hexblade's wizard friend's invisible imp familiar the hexblade is unaware of :smallconfused:) which cast a spell while within this area (or was it meant to apply to those cast into the area from outside of it?) have all level dependent effects of the spell (range, duration, 1d6/level damage, targets for some spells, etc) reduced by 5 levels; this does not actually lower the caster level, and does not affect caster level checks, the DC to dispel said spells, and so forth.

Still awkward (again lowering the SR is easier) but it might work. I think it gets the intent across at least.


I'm also curious about how you'd accomplish what I was aiming at with the capstone.

I'd ban or nerf Contact Other Plane and Commune :smalltongue:

More seriously I was going to give it out to Glyph Knight as a 16th level option and scrapped it for Scrying only protection as a 4th level option. So I'd decide it's more hassle than it's worth, and just go with mind-blank level protection. Still you could look at Vecna-Blooded from MMV but it's a nightmare of poorly written rules. Even so that extra sentence you dropped helps some, but I mean if I cast Contact Other Plane and ask for my 4th question 'is anyone planning to attack me' and a Vecna-Blooded creature is does that count as a spell cast to learn information about the Vecna-Blooded creature? I mean I'm not attempting to get information about them in specific but it happens to be information about them, and I've already gotten answers to 3 questions so the spell suddenly fails and... I know a Vecna-Blooded creature is planning to attack me. Also I cast Legend Lore to learn about their friend would still as written get me info about them.

Personally I'd make it more:

A hexblade is immune to all scrying and divination effects. Divination effects which specifically target them fail completely, other divination effects simply do not reveal information about the hexblade. For example: a Legend Lore spell cast to learn about the hexblade fails, one cast to learn about his companion Alice the Blue Sorceress conveniently fails to mention the hexblade; a detect magic spell which includes the hexblade in its area fails to detect auras on the hexblade or their items, and similar spells never return auras on the hexblade; and a scrying spell cast on another creature does not show the hexblade treating them as invisible and silent (though if they affect another object its movement is shown). This does not have any effect on See Invisibility, True Seeing, or spells or effects which copy them.

[LoyalPaladin]

The point there, I want to say, is that Mage Slayer is anti-hexblade, anti-duskblade, anti-paladin more than it is against wizard or sorcerer who will just take the AoO to get out of melee range and then cast the spell. Combat Reflexes + Trip can get around this but that makes you MAD (Str for damage, at least for PA, Dex for AoOs, Con because everyone needs Con, Int 13+ for Combat Expertise, and Cha for class features).
So do you think that Mage Slayer is bad for this class? I think still being anti-half-caster is decent mage slaying potential, but perhaps not for this class...


I'd either put it at 5th and Magic Eater at 9th, or put it at 9th.
I think giving them mettle at 5th and Magic Eater at 9th is a good idea. I like that.


Beginning at 10th level a hexblade radiates an aura of magical suppression out to 30 ft. Enemies (I'd probably make this not be party friendly myself for verisimilitude reasons, or make it so they could mark creatures to be immune, why does this affect the invisible imp the hexblade is unaware of but does not affect the hexblade's wizard friend's invisible imp familiar the hexblade is unaware of :smallconfused:) which cast a spell while within this area (or was it meant to apply to those cast into the area from outside of it?) have all level dependent effects of the spell (range, duration, 1d6/level damage, targets for some spells, etc) reduced by 5 levels; this does not actually lower the caster level, and does not affect caster level checks, the DC to dispel said spells, and so forth.
What if I made it similar to the War Weaver's Eldritch Tapestry?

Antimagic Presence (Su):
At 10th level, a hexblade radiates an aura of magic supression out to 30ft. All spells cast within this aura are treated as if they were cast by a spellcaster of 5 levels lower, minimum first level. A hexblade can choose a number of allies equal to his Charisma bonus to be immune to this aura. A hexblade is always immune to his own aura. Designating individuals to be immune to Antimagic Presence is a swift action.

This ability extends to 60 feet at 14th level and 120 feet at 19th level.

I could also get rid of the 14th and 19th extension.


A hexblade is immune to all scrying and divination effects. Divination effects which specifically target them fail completely, other divination effects simply do not reveal information about the hexblade. For example: a Legend Lore spell cast to learn about the hexblade fails, one cast to learn about his companion Alice the Blue Sorceress conveniently fails to mention the hexblade; a detect magic spell which includes the hexblade in its area fails to detect auras on the hexblade or their items, and similar spells never return auras on the hexblade; and a scrying spell cast on another creature does not show the hexblade treating them as invisible and silent (though if they affect another object its movement is shown). This does not have any effect on See Invisibility, True Seeing, or spells or effects which copy them.
This is exactly what I want! You're awesome, Zaydos.

I can fill the final dead level (19th) by moving the whole "immortal" thing to that. Then I think the class is fairly complete. What say you, sir Dracolich?

[Zaydos]

So do you think that Mage Slayer is bad for this class? I think still being anti-half-caster is decent mage slaying potential, but perhaps not for this class...

Its existence hurts the class, and it's better for fighting other Hex Blades than wizards. Not saying I think it's bad, though does Mage Slayer apply to SLA use? I mean it says spellcasters you threaten and spells, would it apply to a demon and their SLAs?



I think giving them mettle at 5th and Magic Eater at 9th is a good idea. I like that.

In that case I'd move Magic Eater to 10th, make it 6 + level, and move Anti-Magic Aura to 9th and just let Anti-Magic Aura flat reduce CL so that if they cast the spell within 30 ft of you (60 ft at 14th, 120 ft at 19th) it's effectively 11 + level, makes it much simpler to write Anti-Magic Aura even if it does open some gaps in your defense. Also make it less likely to negate friendly spells.


What if I made it similar to the War Weaver's Eldritch Tapestry?

Antimagic Presence (Su):
At 10th level, a hexblade radiates an aura of magic supression out to 30ft. All spells cast within this aura are treated as if they were cast by a spellcaster of 5 levels lower, minimum first level. A hexblade can choose a number of allies equal to his Charisma bonus to be immune to this aura. A hexblade is always immune to his own aura. Designating individuals to be immune to Antimagic Presence is a swift action.

This ability extends to 60 feet at 14th level and 120 feet at 19th level.

Yeah though as written it still reads like it'd lower their CL completely for spell resistance and the like... which isn't a problem if you give them Magic Eater second and just assume Antimagic Presence will be hitting them.


This is exactly what I want! You're awesome, Zaydos.

I think JesterofDoom's mime had that... then again I helped with the wording on mime.


I can fill the final dead level (19th) by moving the whole "immortal" thing to that. Then I think the class is fairly complete. What say you, sir Dracolich?

My only issues were Mind-Blank's redundancy with the capstone (which I will note Mind-Blank still is better than the capstone, and if you want the capstone to fill worth taking a level to get, I'd suggest dropping the divination immunity bit from Mind-Blank, yes it's less all encompassing, but it hits the major ones for PC use and mind-affecting which is on its own probably better for PCs than divination immunity), and the SR being too high (I did fail to notice the interaction between SR and Anti-Magic Aura which becomes much more destructive).

Oh another possibility for Anti-Magic Aura, while it's on my mind, is just a flat 20% spell failure instead of a CL reduction. It's mechanically a very different effect, but it's my go to for anti-magic auras (though I did recently make a dragon that continuously reduces CL of spell effects in an area).

[LoyalPaladin]

Its existence hurts the class, and it's better for fighting other Hex Blades than wizards. Not saying I think it's bad, though does Mage Slayer apply to SLA use? I mean it says spellcasters you threaten and spells, would it apply to a demon and their SLAs?
Mage Slayer is the class feature I am least attached to. Someone can always take the feat if they want it.


In that case I'd move Magic Eater to 10th, make it 6 + level, and move Anti-Magic Aura to 9th and just let Anti-Magic Aura flat reduce CL so that if they cast the spell within 30 ft of you (60 ft at 14th, 120 ft at 19th) it's effectively 11 + level, makes it much simpler to write Anti-Magic Aura even if it does open some gaps in your defense. Also make it less likely to negate friendly spells.
Okay, I can handle that. I'm incredibly nervous about it, though. Like I said, SR is already something that I feel sucks on PC's and I've never had it work against enemies for me. The Holy Avenger is 5+Paladin level and Drow gets 11 + RHD and both of them failed me. :smallfrown:


Yeah though as written it still reads like it'd lower their CL completely for spell resistance and the like... which isn't a problem if you give them Magic Eater second and just assume Antimagic Presence will be hitting them.
I'll do that. What's the best and least confusing way to word that.


I think JesterofDoom's mime had that... then again I helped with the wording on mime.
Mime? As in an actual mime? That's terrifying. Did they have frightful presence...?


My only issues were Mind-Blank's redundancy with the capstone (which I will note Mind-Blank still is better than the capstone, and if you want the capstone to fill worth taking a level to get, I'd suggest dropping the divination immunity bit from Mind-Blank, yes it's less all encompassing, but it hits the major ones for PC use and mind-affecting which is on its own probably better for PCs than divination immunity), and the SR being too high (I did fail to notice the interaction between SR and Anti-Magic Aura which becomes much more destructive).
What if I switched Mind Blank for Protection from X. If you're neutral or good you get Protection from Evil and if you're evil you get Protection from Good?


Oh another possibility for Anti-Magic Aura, while it's on my mind, is just a flat 20% spell failure instead of a CL reduction. It's mechanically a very different effect, but it's my go to for anti-magic auras (though I did recently make a dragon that continuously reduces CL of spell effects in an area).
Because of my fear of reducing the spell resistance, I feel like this wouldn't do so well in conjunction with Magic Eater...

[Zaydos]

Mage Slayer is the class feature I am least attached to. Someone can always take the feat if they want it.

I personally don't mind seeing it, I can just grok the logic for why the feat's core design is an issue.


Okay, I can handle that. I'm incredibly nervous about it, though. Like I said, SR is already something that I feel sucks on PC's and I've never had it work against enemies for me. The Holy Avenger is 5+Paladin level and Drow gets 11 + RHD and both of them failed me. :smallfrown:

Well Holy Avenger paladin's SR is low enough to be neglible and to automatically fail if the caster has Greater Spell Penetration. As has been noted 10 + level is typically a good spot. Unless you're fighting a boss encounter, or the DM is upping CRs all around (upping EL tends to work better, groups of CR = party level -2 tend to be deadlier than a single CR = party level +2). 10 + level is a good (45%) defense (25% vs things spending 2 feats to get around it but that has build costs) against equal level creatures. If the DM works to negate your SR your SR will fail (there are many options to do this), jacking up the SR just means the DM will have to work to negate your SR at which point you've made the game less diverse, less interesting, and instead of having a class feature relevant 20% (or 50%) of the time, you have a class feature that has to have encounters designed to make it irrelevant (and unfortunately usually deadlier for that). In general giving a class bigger numbers does not fix anything, giving it options that let it invest for bigger numbers works much better (incarnum, binder) because then you can build a character at multiple optimization points. Giving a class an optimization floor that is 'it is balanced if fighting things 5 levels higher' just means the class can't be played at below that optimization level. This is actually why my classes tend to bloat with so many options, I try to build them so that like Sorcerer, Warblade, and Warlock. All three of which you can build them weaker than a monk or strong enough to carry a party. Notably warlock can get some OTK going on if they can get good swift action movement or get an enemy to come to them, Warblade is slightly better at it in that they can use Strike of Perfect Clarity for a 30% shot at one-shotting Pit Fiend/Balor (only half kills a Wyrm Black Dragon) and leaves them with a swift and move action to actually get to the enemy (able to move 40 ft, plus a... 50+ ft jump with that). Warlock is better out of combat than a warblade, though.

By Asmodeus Snowbluff has a quote in their sig which summarizes this (and the profane glory of 3.5) pretty well.


I'll do that. What's the best and least confusing way to word that.

At 10th level, a hexblade radiates an aura of magic supression out to 30ft. All spells cast within this aura have their caster level reduced by 5 (to a minimum of 1); this applies to any caster level checks made as part of the spell, to the DC to dispel such a spell, and other calculations based off of the caster level. A hexblade can choose a number of creatures equal to his Charisma bonus to be immune to this aura. A hexblade is always immune to his own aura. Designating individuals to be immune to Antimagic Presence is a swift action.

This ability extends to 60 feet at 14th level and 120 feet at 19th level. (note +60 ft to this is not actually a dead level, still 'you don't die of old age' is a fairly minor game mechanic effect especially if it stops aging mods or you keep aging penalties, which are both better ideas than +3 to all mental ability scores if you start at 19th+).

Then you just make Magic Eater SR 5 + Class level. Easily overcome from outside, or by allies, but hard to overcome within your aura. Up it to 7 + Class level (occasionally relevant from outside, 55% negation and healing from inside) and drop the extensions to the aura.


Mime? As in an actual mime? That's terrifying. Did they have frightful presence...?

Final Fantasy Mime, so more of a Mimic class.


What if I switched Mind Blank for Protection from X. If you're neutral or good you get Protection from Evil and if you're evil you get Protection from Good?

Could switch it to full blown immunity to mind-affecting effects, would leave more purpose to the capstone. Switching it to Prot works too.


Because of my fear of reducing the spell resistance, I feel like this wouldn't do so well in conjunction with Magic Eater...

Leave Magic Eater 10 + CL, and it gives you a ~60% immunity to magic, and your allies a 20% immunity, it also makes the class feature actually relevant against spells like Solid Fog and a way to stop casters retreating with Teleport. It's not reliable (20% chance) but it makes casting hazardous (20% chance of wasting a turn and slot). It's a stronger mechanical impact than -5 CL, wider application of an ability than -5 CL, harder for a DM to circumvent, and hard for a player to turn into full immunity unless the DM circumvents it.

[LoyalPaladin]

I personally don't mind seeing it, I can just grok the logic for why the feat's core design is an issue.
I see. Well, I'll leave it then. For now.


Well Holy Avenger paladin's SR is low enough to be neglible and to automatically fail if the caster has Greater Spell Penetration. As has been noted 10 + level is typically a good spot. Unless you're fighting a boss encounter, or the DM is upping CRs all around (upping EL tends to work better, groups of CR = party level -2 tend to be deadlier than a single CR = party level +2). 10 + level is a good (45%) defense (25% vs things spending 2 feats to get around it but that has build costs) against equal level creatures. If the DM works to negate your SR your SR will fail (there are many options to do this), jacking up the SR just means the DM will have to work to negate your SR at which point you've made the game less diverse, less interesting, and instead of having a class feature relevant 20% (or 50%) of the time, you have a class feature that has to have encounters designed to make it irrelevant (and unfortunately usually deadlier for that). In general giving a class bigger numbers does not fix anything, giving it options that let it invest for bigger numbers works much better (incarnum, binder) because then you can build a character at multiple optimization points. Giving a class an optimization floor that is 'it is balanced if fighting things 5 levels higher' just means the class can't be played at below that optimization level. This is actually why my classes tend to bloat with so many options, I try to build them so that like Sorcerer, Warblade, and Warlock. All three of which you can build them weaker than a monk or strong enough to carry a party. Notably warlock can get some OTK going on if they can get good swift action movement or get an enemy to come to them, Warblade is slightly better at it in that they can use Strike of Perfect Clarity for a 30% shot at one-shotting Pit Fiend/Balor (only half kills a Wyrm Black Dragon) and leaves them with a swift and move action to actually get to the enemy (able to move 40 ft, plus a... 50+ ft jump with that). Warlock is better out of combat than a warblade, though.
When you do this, it always amazes me and hurts my brain at the same time...


At 10th level, a hexblade radiates an aura of magic supression out to 30ft. All spells cast within this aura have their caster level reduced by 5 (to a minimum of 1); this applies to any caster level checks made as part of the spell, to the DC to dispel such a spell, and other calculations based off of the caster level. A hexblade can choose a number of creatures equal to his Charisma bonus to be immune to this aura. A hexblade is always immune to his own aura. Designating individuals to be immune to Antimagic Presence is a swift action.

This ability extends to 60 feet at 14th level and 120 feet at 19th level.



(note +60 ft to this is not actually a dead level, still 'you don't die of old age' is a fairly minor game mechanic effect especially if it stops aging mods or you keep aging penalties, which are both better ideas than +3 to all mental ability scores if you start at 19th+).
Hmmmm. Thematically I'd love to give them the anti(magic) aging cream. As an unstoppable, untraceable, and inevitable bounty hunter of the arcane... How would you do this?

Unnamed Class Feature (Ex?)
At 19th level, a hexblade has transcended mortality and become an immortal hunter of the arcane. A hexblade no longer ages and cannot be aged magically. Hexblades do not gain bonuses or accrue penalties for old age.


Final Fantasy Mime, so more of a Mimic class.
I'll have to hunt it down later!


Could switch it to full blown immunity to mind-affecting effects, would leave more purpose to the capstone. Switching it to Prot works too.
I like this option. I'll make that happen.


Leave Magic Eater 10 + CL, and it gives you a ~60% immunity to magic, and your allies a 20% immunity, it also makes the class feature actually relevant against spells like Solid Fog and a way to stop casters retreating with Teleport. It's not reliable (20% chance) but it makes casting hazardous (20% chance of wasting a turn and slot). It's a stronger mechanical impact than -5 CL, wider application of an ability than -5 CL, harder for a DM to circumvent, and hard for a player to turn into full immunity unless the DM circumvents it.
10 + CL and then antimagic presence for 20% failure. I like this.

Edit:
Alright, sir. Want to give that a once over? I just added all the changes...

[Snowbluff]

Leave Magic Eater 10 + CL, and it gives you a ~60% immunity to magic, and your allies a 20% immunity, it also makes the class feature actually relevant against spells like Solid Fog and a way to stop casters retreating with Teleport. It's not reliable (20% chance) but it makes casting hazardous (20% chance of wasting a turn and slot). It's a stronger mechanical impact than -5 CL, wider application of an ability than -5 CL, harder for a DM to circumvent, and hard for a player to turn into full immunity unless the DM circumvents it.
I hate this. No counterplay. You could remove yourself from the area before with a spell, but now it's just a random pain in the ass. Hurts Paladins etc as well, as they are buffers. It doesn't function like Antimagic, either.

I don't see why you need 2 features that make extra rolls for casters. I'd rather you give an SR aura like Holy Avenger. It'd slow down the game less, and would be more consistent and less disruptive.

As for another idea, how about a Divine Defiance type effect? Where you can roll saves against some spells that don't normally require them?

[LoyalPaladin]

I hate this. No counterplay. You could remove yourself from the area before with a spell, but now it's just a random pain in the ass. Hurts Paladins etc as well, as they are buffers. It doesn't function like Antimagic, either.

I don't see why you need 2 features that make extra rolls for casters. I'd rather you give an SR aura like Holy Avenger. It'd slow down the game less, and would be more consistent and less disruptive.
They are anti-mages. They're whole shtick is making life difficult for mages. A paladin can still swing a sword and will most likely deal more damage than a hexblade in melee combat. There is a 20% chance that the mage can't teleport away, which isn't really that tragic. If they don't get away, then that's great! Time to get to work mage slaying.

If you want to argue that it doesn't work like Antimagic, it could very well be called Suppress Magic or Siphoning Presence, but Antimagic conveys a fairly clear message.

It's two extra rolls, one if they're not in its fairly short range. I put very little stock in SR on PC's, so an Aura of SR is something I have no faith in.

[Snowbluff]

The problem is that you're adding extra rolls, which causes reduced elegance and increased turn time, and you've got it a little backwards.

When you apply a penalty to someone or something, there should be an attack rolls or save.

My Divine Denial style option provides a better option. Sure, it adds more rolls, but instead of indiscriminately adding rolls to all kinds of spell, it adds saves to spells that you may not be able to defend yourself against. Zaydos mentioned Solid fog. It'd be nice to get a reflex against that, right?

"If you are the subject of a spell that does not allow a save and affects an area, you may roll roll a reflex save to negate that spells effect on you." And so on. Add an option later on to affect allies and voila. And unlike the old versions of the ability, you can optimize it. Elegance! (Thought it would be immensely frustrating if this was gished into Swiftblade. Hoo boy, lots of ways around spells there. :smalltongue:)

I'm generally pretty confident about spell resistance. Any argument against using SR could be leveled against the entire class.

[LoyalPaladin]

The problem is that you're adding extra rolls, which causes reduced elegance and increased turn time, and you've got it a little backwards.
You're incredibly partial to mages, so I understand how a class designed to combat and kill mages could be scary. But I assure you, Snowbluff. You will live. I mean, unless you're a mage. Then you'll be purged with alchemical silver and Mage Bane weapons. :smalltongue:

Also, what counterplay? If you're the DM, you're using monsters. Unless you're the type to start trying to murder your own party members...


When you apply a penalty to someone or something, there should be an attack rolls or save.
There are plenty of no save and no SR spells out there, there are also plenty of long range spells that can circumvent the aura even when they get the final range bump. Dominate has a duration of days, if you want to talk counterplay, one save can take you out of the game for literal days. Wizards get Dominate Person as a 5th level spell at 9th level. Luckily, the hexblade has a 20% chance to say no to that starting at the same level, because they can't cast the same level of spell for 8 more levels.


My Divine Denial style option provides a better option. Sure, it adds more rolls, but instead of indiscriminately adding rolls to all kinds of spell, it adds saves to spells that you may not be able to defend yourself against. Zaydos mentioned Solid fog. It'd be nice to get a reflex against that, right?
Full casters get a massive edge on anything that isn't a full caster. They get a slightly less massive edge against initiatiators... this class and its other half-caster ilk are still totally dwarfed by their full casting overlords. The fact that they might be in danger from a hexblade is pretty good, I think.

[Snowbluff]

You're incredibly partial to mages, so I understand how a class designed to combat and kill mages could be scary. But I assure you, Snowbluff. You will live. I mean, unless you're a mage. Then you'll be purged with alchemical silver and Mage Bane weapons. :smalltongue:

Also, what counterplay? If you're the DM, you're using monsters. Unless you're the type to start trying to murder your own party members... I am the type to murder my own team. :smallamused:

And a bunch of monsters use spells. Dragons. Naga. Demons. You know. Lots of stuff. Spells are the lifeblood of this game. Magebane is a great option for a weapon for this reason! I'm not sure how the alchemical silver would help, though.



There are plenty of no save and no SR spells out there, there are also plenty of long range spells that can circumvent the aura even when they get the final range bump. Dominate has a duration of days, if you want to talk counterplay, one save can take you out of the game for literal days. Wizards get Dominate Person as a 5th level spell at 9th level. Luckily, the hexblade has a 20% chance to say no to that starting at the same level, because they can't cast the same level of spell for 8 more levels.


Full casters get a massive edge on anything that isn't a full caster. They get a slightly less massive edge against initiatiators... this class and its other half-caster ilk are still totally dwarfed by their full casting overlords. The fact that they might be in danger from a hexblade is pretty good, I think.
Of course there is a bunch of no save no sr spells. That's why I made you a class feature that helps fix that.

Partial casters have way fewer options when it comes to spells, so they won't have as many uber spells that meet this criteria. So partial casters are less affected than full casters. Furthermore, these no save effects are basically unfair (that was my point) and unfun. This ability takes the edge off some of them.

I did make it not work with targeted spells because that includes a lot of spells that require an attack roll, SR, or have a save already.

[LoyalPaladin]

I am the type to murder my own team. :smallamused:
Then the fact that you don't like this class makes me feel even safer. :smalltongue:

It is a shame you don't like it, though. Here I was hoping to add some male blood to the Guardian pool with a nice unlucky warrior. :smallwink:


And a bunch of monsters use spells. Dragons. Naga. Demons. You know. Lots of stuff. Spells are the lifeblood of this game. Magebane is a great option for a weapon for this reason! I'm not sure how the alchemical silver would help, though.
Great! That makes the class features relevant. Most things you fight are evil, so Smite Evil is relevant, it just isn't incredibly strong. While this class might out perform the paladin, it won't out perform a duskblade.


Partial casters have way fewer options when it comes to spells, so they won't have as many uber spells that meet this criteria. So partial casters are less affected than full casters. Furthermore, these no save effects are basically unfair (that was my point) and unfun. This ability takes the edge off some of them.
Swiftblade applies a miss chance to all melee attacks, this is basically the same thing right? Personally I think it's really thematic when a caster has to look up in shock when teleport didn't save him from the hound of hell in front of him. :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Then the fact that you don't like this class makes me feel even safer. :smalltongue:

It is a shame you don't like it, though. Here I was hoping to add some male blood to the Guardian pool with a nice unlucky warrior. :smallwink:
A problem with the male characters in Guardians is that I kill them off at an alarming rate. Each one is basically a body bag at this point.



Great! That makes the class features relevant. Most things you fight are evil, so Smite Evil is relevant, it just isn't incredibly strong. While this class might out perform the paladin, it won't out perform a duskblade.


Swiftblade applies a miss chance to all melee attacks, this is basically the same thing right? Personally I think it's really thematic when a caster has to look up in shock when teleport didn't save him from the hound of hell in front of him. :smallamused:
Relevant, yes. A pain to run? Entirely. Unfun? Sure a ****. Unfair? You know it.

I don't think it's thematic. You're some scrub off of the street. Noodle magic shouldn't randomly shut off the real deal regardless of how good the wizard or druid or what have you happens to be, leaving them shrugging and everyone confused as to why the game doesn't have anything happen anymore. It's even worse with something like a Paladin. For them spell failure is like "Good decides that this isn't worth it."

Ergo, I've created the perfect solution. An optimizable way of covering spells that would otherwise be annoying to deal with without specific equipment. Darkness? You can save against that. Blasphemy? You can save against that. Solid Fog? You can save against that. AMF? You cleave through it. And sure, you can get the surprised wizard out of it too. Unlike the original option, which is powered by derp and rainbows (which nonsensical rules like you are affected byour own, or you aren't affected by your own but anther hexblade's would affect you?), this one is powered by skill. The goes "What? My kung fu is best spell was unavoidable! You are a worthy opponent!"

Your option is increasing unfun and unfair. My option is decreasing it.

PS: You can actually work around a swiftblade's miss chances. Don't tell anyone that I know how though. o.o

[LoyalPaladin]

A problem with the male characters in Guardians is that I kill them off at an alarming rate. Each one is basically a body bag at this point.
Duly noted.


Relevant, yes. A pain to run? Entirely. Unfun? Sure a ****. Unfair? You know it.
It is hardly Unfair to run. If you're going to argue that anything outside tier 1 can be unfair to something inside tier 1 you should probably go back to the 3.5 sub forum for a while. But I know you don't think that.

It's not hard to run or even unfun. I've DM'd for far more complicated builds and far more number crunchers than this and it is totally manageable. If you're worried about it being unfair to the monsters or DM's. Once again a full caster can massacre encounters without any problem. A 20% chance to fizzle a spell holds no candle to that.


I don't think it's thematic. You're some scrub off of the street. Noodle magic shouldn't randomly shut off the real deal regardless of how good the wizard or druid or what have you happens to be, leaving them shrugging and everyone confused as to why the game doesn't have anything happen anymore. It's even worse with something like a Paladin. For them spell failure is like "Good decides that this isn't worth it."
Here is where we're going to have to part ways in terms of logic. Your argument is "tier one magic is supreme and anything else is lesser and shouldn't be able to stop it".


Your option is increasing unfun and unfair. My option is decreasing it.
We're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Snowbluff]

Duly noted. Not that you shouldn't make a male character. I'm talking about the NPCs. In fact, death and change are a big theme. Watch out for these people. :smallfrown:



It is hardly Unfair to run. If you're going to argue that anything outside tier 1 can be unfair to something inside tier 1 you should probably go back to the 3.5 sub forum for a while. But I know you don't think that. For posterity, unfair and unfun are abilities that don't allow interaction, or otherwise slow down the game unnecessarily. Personally I hate being in a fight (on either side of the screen) that is dragging forever because there's like a ghost leftover and no one can make their miss chance rolls.


Here is where we're going to have to part ways in terms of logic. Your argument is "tier one magic is supreme and anything else is lesser and shouldn't be able to stop it". You quoted the bit with the paladin randomly not being able to invoke divine abilities, while talking about making an ability that specifically targets the spells that the hardest to deal with, that are also the wheelhouse of said T1 classes.

I understand that as you class that it is personal to you, but you should probably take a moment back if you're misinterpreting my arguments. I know you're under stress. Take a few breaths. We're all friends here buddy. :smallsmile:

[LoyalPaladin]

Not that you shouldn't make a male character. I'm talking about the NPCs. In fact, death and change are a big theme. Watch out for these people. :smallfrown:
I'm not a fan of playing half-casters outside ranger and paladin normally. But I'd spring for this hexblade. It is interesting enough without being world shattering. Besides a 20% chance of spell failure is negligible, honestly. The only reason we avoid it on armor is because we can do it easily.


For posterity, unfair and unfun are abilities that don't allow interaction.
I will now log this away as your definition of those two words for the remainder of this thread.


You quoted the bit with the paladin randomly not being able to invoke divine abilities, while talking about making an ability that specifically targets the spells that the hardest to deal with, that are also the wheelhouse of said T1 classes.
At this point I'm confused about which ability you are talking about. Are you talking about your ability or Zaydos' ability that targests the T1 wheelhouse.


I understand that as you class that it is personal to you, but you should probably take a moment back if you're misinterpreting my arguments. I know you're under stress. Take a few breaths. We're all friends here buddy. :smallsmile:
I'm actually strangely zen right now. I think I've stressed so much this weekend that I'm practically unable to stress more. It isn't true, but I am alright right now. One wrong move and somebody is getting smote, though.

I'm just saying that we don't have the same stance one where certain classes should be balanced in D&D or even the same stance on which ones we like. The fact that I'm building a class that fits snuggly into the category of class I like that also does cartwheels in your category's living room makes this a hard class to come to terms on. With each other that is.

Also, you'd be surprised how hard it is to gestalt regular hexblade and duskblade. Honestly, I'm trying right now.

[Snowbluff]

I'm not a fan of playing half-casters outside ranger and paladin normally. But I'd spring for this hexblade. It is interesting enough without being world shattering. Besides a 20% chance of spell failure is negligible, honestly. The only reason we avoid it on armor is because we can do it easily.
It's really swingy for my tastes. It's especially frustating if you made the right move and chose the right spell (doing the higher level of thinking in the game rules, which should be well reward), and whoops that's a 17. Good bye, spell slot! Wait until tomorrow to try again, sucker! That'll learn ya! :smalltongue:

While I like Swiftblade, I mostly like to play it because it makes you a pain in the ass to kill. :smalleek:


At this point I'm confused about which ability you are talking about. Are you talking about your ability or Zaydos' ability that targests the T1 wheelhouse.
My ability is more specific and has a more pronounced effect on T1-style (it applies to other full casters as well) casters. Indiscriminate 20% spell failure is... uh... indiscriminate.


I'm actually strangely zen right now. I think I've stressed so much this weekend that I'm practically unable to stress more. It isn't true, but I am alright right now. One wrong move and somebody is getting smote, though.

I'm just saying that we don't have the same stance one where certain classes should be balanced in D&D or even the same stance on which ones we like. The fact that I'm building a class that fits snuggly into the category of class I like that also does cartwheels in your category's living room makes this a hard class to come to terms on. With each other that is.

Also, you'd be surprised how hard it is to gestalt regular hexblade and duskblade. Honestly, I'm trying right now.

My take is that Hexblade is more defensive and debuffy, while is the Duskblade is more offensive focused. I wouldn't try to gestalt them though. If I had to gestalt Hexblade with something that isn't Warlock or Druid (voodoo druid! Ooooooh!), I'd choose rogue. Do a bit of a blackguard thing.

EDIT: That just gave me an idea for a Chimera ACF. Nice.

[Zaydos]

I will note there is a 5th level spell that creates an area that applies a 20% chance of failure to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

That said just add saves to No Save AoEs does do a lot to help defensively, does nothing to help be a mage slayer (i.e. force a fight the mage wants to avoid), still it is an elegant and well thought out ability.


My take is that Hexblade is more defensive and debuffy, while is the Duskblade is more offensive focused. I wouldn't try to gestalt them though. If I had to gestalt Hexblade with something that isn't Warlock or Druid (voodoo druid! Ooooooh!), I'd choose rogue. Do a bit of a blackguard thing.

I'd go Dread Necromancer into Dread Witch for a Hexblade gestalt (I am the king of fear), though that concept came from a tiered gestalt (Tier 1 no second class, tier 2 a tier 5 or 6 class, tier 3 a tier 4 or lower class) game so it was more 'what tier 4 class do I gestalt dread necromancer with'.

Though I'm going to ask why you would gestalt Duskblade and Hexblade, just too much redundancy for a gestalt (and split casting stats), and half the redundancy in no way stacks (full BAB and full BAB).

[LoyalPaladin]

I'd go Dread Necromancer into Dread Witch for a Hexblade gestalt (I am the king of fear), though that concept came from a tiered gestalt (Tier 1 no second class, tier 2 a tier 5 or 6 class, tier 3 a tier 4 or lower class) game so it was more 'what tier 4 class do I gestalt dread necromancer with'.

Though I'm going to ask why you would gestalt Duskblade and Hexblade, just too much redundancy for a gestalt (and split casting stats), and half the redundancy in no way stacks (full BAB and full BAB).
Heroes of Horror wasn't in the allowed source books. So I decided to pick up Ranger instead of duskblade. Ranger/Bloodhound to be exact.

[Eno Remnant]

It's been a while since I last saw your homebrew, Loyal. I'll throw in my two bits to help out, though I think Snowbluff and Zaydos pretty much have you covered.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A hexblade is proficient with all simple and marshal weapons and with light armor, and with light shields.

While Marshals do get a good selection of weapons, I think you meant martial weapons.


For example, at 1st level, the hex Kaine can cast three 1st-level spells per day

You probably want to use hexblade instead of hex there, despite it just being an example, because you have hexes later on and it clashes. Simple people like myself might get confused :smalltongue:


Upon reaching 5th level, and at every odd-numbered hexblade level after that (7th, 9th, and so on), a hexblade can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the hexblade "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged.

I recognise that this is meant to be the same as the Duskblade, but personally I find it somewhat silly that you can't pick a spell of a lower level instead, given your limited spell selection. Just my opinion, doesn't really need changing.


Hexblade's Curse (Su):
A number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier, as a swift action, a hexblade can unleash a curse upon a foe. The target must be visible to the hexblade and within 60 feet. The target of a hexblade's curse takes a -2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 hour thereafter. A successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 hexblade's class level + hexblade's Cha modifier) negates the effect.

Multiple hexblade's curses don't stack, and any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same hexblade's curse for 24 hours.

Any effect that removes or dispels a curse eliminates the effect of a hexblade's curse.
A hexblade can utter only one hexblade's curse per round, even if he gets multiple curses from a high charisma score.

This is a significant upgrade, but I still feel like it lacks a little. You scale it at later levels, which detracts from my second-biggest problem with the class feature historically, but my biggest issue has always been uses per day. Which you've improved, but I still feel it lacks just a little bit. You should really add a "(min. 1)" to the uses, or make it X+CHA uses, perhaps 1 or 3 for X. It's taking you an action (explicitly worse than the original, but not by much), enemies can save against it, and those that do are immune for 24 hours. You can really use all the uses you can get.

Also, you've got a little spacing issue on the last two lines.


Mage Slayer (Ex):
At 2nd level, a hexblade has become adept at fighting spellcasters. Any spellcaster you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively.

I'm not sure how I feel about this, to be honest. I know you've had a whole discussion on it, so I won't ramble on, but it does feel kind of pointless when a smart non-gish caster would stay well away from melee.


Hex (Sp):
Like witches, Hexblades learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch#TOC-Hex), that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 4th level, a hexblade gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional 4 levels attained after 4th level, as noted on Table: Hexblade. A hexblade cannot select an individual hex more than once.

You may want to change "gains one hex of her choice" to "gains one common hex of her choice", so that the RAW maniacs don't jump on it with glee. Additionally, I think you meant "an additional hex every four levels attained after 4th level" at the end there.

As for the hexes themselves, I haven't read them, but from skimming Witch, it seems like it won't unbalance the class.

Oh, and standardising pronouns is a good idea. I take it you copied this mostly from the Witch, which would be why it's "her", and other features say "his".


Antimagic Presence (Su)
At 9th level, a hexblade radiates an aura of magic supression out to 30ft. All spells cast within this aura have their caster level reduced by 5 (to a minimum of 1); this applies to any caster level checks made as part of the spell, to the DC to dispel such a spell, and other calculations based off of the caster level. A hexblade can choose a number of creatures equal to his Charisma bonus to be immune to this aura. A hexblade is always immune to his own aura. Designating individuals to be immune to Antimagic Presence is a swift action.

This ability extends to 60 feet at 14th level and 120 feet at 19th level.

This is the one causing trouble. Become level 9, make all the gishes cry, annoy every caster foolish enough to get that close. This could use some more discussion, beyond what's already been said.

First, that's a big penalty, early on. Having the CL penalty increase at, say, one-third of your class level, might be a bit more balanced (ends up as a -6 penalty by level 18). Like I said, you'd destroy gishes with this at that level - especially a Paladin of your level (fighting Paladins is wrong, and neither Eno nor LoyalPaladin endorses doing so unless absolutely necessary), whose caster level is already four below the party Wizard's.

Second, you probably want a mechanic for turning the aura off. Walking into a room full of presently neutral-to-you Wizards and making them suddenly feel weaker would be considered a pretty big threat, which could get you killed. Not to mention it utterly lacking subtlety if you're going to hide or sneak around.

Third, it's a no-save just suck. Which is bad enough normally. But caster levels are a lot more potent than the ability to not fall on your rear for a round. As my little maxim goes, what can a Sorcerer do at that level? Nothing on this level, that's for sure. Offering a difficult save or a caster level check is a thought. It could be especially interesting, tactically and logistica speaking, it you make it take an action to attempt to overcome the suppression effect.


Magic Eater (Su):
At 10th level, a hexblade gains spell resistance 10 + his class level. Any spell that targets the hexblade and fails to overcome the hexblade's spell resistance is consumed by the hexblade, healing the hexblade for 1d4 hit points per level of the spell that was consumed.

So on average, a 50% chance to stop a spell (assuming a caster of your CL with no feats or abilities to affect it) and heal a small amount. Given the healing is minimal and it only affects things that allow spell resistance, it seems fairly balanced, though I might have made it 8 + class level. Just seems like a passive heal should have less chance of triggering, but that's only my opinion.


Superior Hexblade's Curse (Su):
When a hexblade attains 13th level, the penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls incurred by a target of the hexblade's curse becomes -6 instead of -4.

And here we see an improvement on the progression from the original Hexblade. It's a good level for a penalty of that scale, nicely done.


Aura of Unluck (Su):
At 14th level, a hexblade drains the luck of anyone that would attack him. Any melee or ranged attack made against the hexblade while aura of unluck is active has a 20% miss chance. A hexblade can deactivate and reactivate this aura as a swift action.

This miss chance improves to 40% at level 19.

This is significantly superior to the original. It also creates a lot of extra dice rolls constantly, which is generally a bad thing to do to combat. Going back to uses per day and a time limit might be a good idea, if only to spare the sanity of DMs everywhere.


Eldritch Mind (Su):
At 15th level, a hexblade becomes immune to all mind-effecting effects.

So Mind Blank lite. It's balanced at that level (if anything, it could come sooner), if a little out of left field. I mean, as an anti-mage, it makes sense for you to have this. But the Hexblade isn't about making things good for you, it's about making things bad for your enemies. Maybe an ability that forces anyone trying to use mind-affecting abilities on you to save - if they pass, it still doesn't affect you; if they fail, they take ability damage as you wrack their mind with dark power.

In terms of spelling, people are affected by the effects of something. It should therefore be mind-affecting.


Hexing Retaliation (Ex):
At 17th level, if a hexblade takes hit point damage from a spell, he may cast a hex at the caster that damaged him as a free action.

Similar to something I implemented in my own hex-based class. I like it, it fits and it's balanced.


Dire Hexblade's Curse (Su):
When a hexblade attains 18th level, the penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls incurred by a target of the hexblade's curse becomes -8 instead of -6.

It almost feels too late to have another increase to the penalty, but I know I'd certainly appreciate having it if I ever got to level 18. Guess I'm just not used to levelling past the mid-range in my group.


Eldritch Body (Ex):
At 19th level, a hexblade has transcended mortality and become an immortal hunter of the arcane. A hexblade no longer ages and cannot be aged magically. Hexblades do not gain bonuses or accrue penalties for old age.

This doesn't make any sense to me from a fluff perspective. That aside, it's fine, people love immortality.


Vexing Existence (Ex):
At 20th level, a hexblade becomes an inevitable and untraceable force. A hexblade is immune to all scrying and divination effects. Divination effects which specifically target them fail completely, other divination effects simply do not reveal information about the hexblade.

This is a very interesting capstone. I tend to have a lot of conflicting thoughts on capstones, but mostly I'd like to think that they epitomise the class they end. Something about it should ring true to the class, as though they'd reached a nigh-insurmountable high point in their career. This just feels like a it's a low note to end on for a person who not that long ago became immortal.

As for the class's spells, I can't say I gave them much of a look over, but there's few enough that I stand by my statement higher up that you could afford to offer more diversity by letting them replace spells with ones from lower levels.



That's all I've really got to add. Hope it's worth something to you.

[LoyalPaladin]

It's been a while since I last saw your homebrew, Loyal. I'll throw in my two bits to help out, though I think Snowbluff and Zaydos pretty much have you covered.
I've been lacking on creative juices as of late. Always happy to get some constructive criticism.


While Marshals do get a good selection of weapons, I think you meant martial weapons.

<other grammar and formatting points>
Thanks for pointing all this out! I've fixed all of your suggestions, I believe.


I recognise that this is meant to be the same as the Duskblade, but personally I find it somewhat silly that you can't pick a spell of a lower level instead, given your limited spell selection. Just my opinion, doesn't really need changing.
Are you suggesting I let them take a 2nd level spell as a 3rd level spell slot?


This is a significant upgrade, but I still feel like it lacks a little. You scale it at later levels, which detracts from my second-biggest problem with the class feature historically, but my biggest issue has always been uses per day. Which you've improved, but I still feel it lacks just a little bit. You should really add a "(min. 1)" to the uses, or make it X+CHA uses, perhaps 1 or 3 for X. It's taking you an action (explicitly worse than the original, but not by much), enemies can save against it, and those that do are immune for 24 hours. You can really use all the uses you can get.
I've changed it to 3+Cha bonus.


As for the hexes themselves, I haven't read them, but from skimming Witch, it seems like it won't unbalance the class.
They're not crazy powerful. But they'll pack a punch when needed.


This is the one causing trouble. Become level 9, make all the gishes cry, annoy every caster foolish enough to get that close. This could use some more discussion, beyond what's already been said.

First, that's a big penalty, early on. Having the CL penalty increase at, say, one-third of your class level, might be a bit more balanced (ends up as a -6 penalty by level 18). Like I said, you'd destroy gishes with this at that level - especially a Paladin of your level (fighting Paladins is wrong, and neither Eno nor LoyalPaladin endorses doing so unless absolutely necessary), whose caster level is already four below the party Wizard's.

Second, you probably want a mechanic for turning the aura off. Walking into a room full of presently neutral-to-you Wizards and making them suddenly feel weaker would be considered a pretty big threat, which could get you killed. Not to mention it utterly lacking subtlety if you're going to hide or sneak around.

Third, it's a no-save just suck. Which is bad enough normally. But caster levels are a lot more potent than the ability to not fall on your rear for a round. As my little maxim goes, what can a Sorcerer do at that level? Nothing on this level, that's for sure. Offering a difficult save or a caster level check is a thought. It could be especially interesting, tactically and logistica speaking, it you make it take an action to attempt to overcome the suppression effect.
Woops. This was actually supposed to be entirely replaced with Zaydos' 20% spell failure suggestion.


Antimagic Presence (Su)
At 9th level, a hexblade radiates an aura of magic supression out to 30ft. All spells cast within this aura have a 20% chance to fail. If a spell fails, the spell slot is still used and the spell cannot be recovered.

This ability extends to 60 feet at 14th level and 120 feet at 19th level.
It has been fixed.


So on average, a 50% chance to stop a spell (assuming a caster of your CL with no feats or abilities to affect it) and heal a small amount. Given the healing is minimal and it only affects things that allow spell resistance, it seems fairly balanced, though I might have made it 8 + class level. Just seems like a passive heal should have less chance of triggering, but that's only my opinion.
I know I've beaten the dead horse over and over again, but I do not trust SR on PC's. I still am wary this class feature will not perform...


This is significantly superior to the original. It also creates a lot of extra dice rolls constantly, which is generally a bad thing to do to combat. Going back to uses per day and a time limit might be a good idea, if only to spare the sanity of DMs everywhere.
A 2nd level Swiftblade can have the same thing any time they're hasted and let's be honest, when isn't a swiftblade hasted? I think one of the Initiator classes gets a stance that does the same thing too.


So Mind Blank lite. It's balanced at that level (if anything, it could come sooner), if a little out of left field. I mean, as an anti-mage, it makes sense for you to have this. But the Hexblade isn't about making things good for you, it's about making things bad for your enemies. Maybe an ability that forces anyone trying to use mind-affecting abilities on you to save - if they pass, it still doesn't affect you; if they fail, they take ability damage as you wrack their mind with dark power.
Fist of Raziel gets a constant Magic Circle Against Evil effect, but Zaydos was concerned this might undermine the capstone.


This is a very interesting capstone. I tend to have a lot of conflicting thoughts on capstones, but mostly I'd like to think that they epitomise the class they end. Something about it should ring true to the class, as though they'd reached a nigh-insurmountable high point in their career. This just feels like a it's a low note to end on for a person who not that long ago became immortal.
It's sort of the Vecna template. We had a crazy eldritch beast that did something similar in a game we played in and you'd be surprised how handy this is. Boy have we got stories... and a rogue who doesn't sleep anymore...


That's all I've really got to add. Hope it's worth something to you.
My Jr. Tormlet's opinions are always worth something to me!

[Eno Remnant]

I've been lacking on creative juices as of late. Always happy to get some constructive criticism.

And I'm always happy to dish it out :smallamused:



Thanks for pointing all this out! I've fixed all of your suggestions, I believe.

Just doing my part for the OCD English purists of the world.



Are you suggesting I let them take a 2nd level spell as a 3rd level spell slot?

Well when you say it like that, it sounds silly...

I was thinking about maneuvers when I wrote that, so I didn't really consider that properly. I suppose I'd be suggesting they get it as another spell known of a lower level. It'd probably just be easier to expand the spell list a little.



I've changed it to 3+Cha bonus.

Hexblade some kind of Evil Cleric, confirmed. Half-Life 3 continues to cry in the corner.



Woops. This was actually supposed to be entirely replaced with Zaydos' 20% spell failure suggestion.


It has been fixed.

Looking at it, you'd almost want to combine the new one with Magic Eater, for simplicity's sake. Just a thought.

Could also add that little bit about exempting people from the aura again.



A 2nd level Swiftblade can have the same thing any time they're hasted and let's be honest, when isn't a swiftblade hasted? I think one of the Initiator classes gets a stance that does the same thing too.

Are you actually taking an example from WotC material? Back when they were still making 3.5, they couldn't have said the word balance with a straight face.

But on a more serious note, just because it exists at 1st party material, doesn't mean that it's not got the same problem. It clutters up combat, which a lot of people will find frustrating. Same goes with the new Antimagic Presence, really, but at least that's only for spells.



Fist of Raziel gets a constant Magic Circle Against Evil effect, but Zaydos was concerned this might undermine the capstone.

Not saying it's a bad thing, only that it could afford to be something a little truer to the fluff, more fun to interact with and more worthy of the level (like my suggestion).



It's sort of the Vecna template. We had a crazy eldritch beast that did something similar in a game we played in and you'd be surprised how handy this is. Boy have we got stories... and a rogue who doesn't sleep anymore...

Vecna-Blooded is a cool template. My real issue is that it's a tad underwhelming, when you could put some kind of fantastic, insane curse ability at the end. I suppose it's really up to personal preference.



My Jr. Tormlet's opinions are always worth something to me!

Loyal-senpai noticed me! Sugoi! Kill me.

[Grand Arbiter]

College classes have been a pain of late, and today I finally had time to scrounge up Complete Arcane and the Mage Slayer line...and I may have an idea that could work. Give them the Mage Slayer feat, (or the option of another feat if they already have it), and they can ignore the "Special" text on the three feats in the Mage Slayer line.

Voilà, a mage slayer with unhindered spell casting ability of their own. :smallbiggrin:


So Mind Blank lite. It's balanced at that level (if anything, it could come sooner), if a little out of left field. I mean, as an anti-mage, it makes sense for you to have this. But the Hexblade isn't about making things good for you, it's about making things bad for your enemies. Maybe an ability that forces anyone trying to use mind-affecting abilities on you to save - if they pass, it still doesn't affect you; if they fail, they take ability damage as you wrack their mind with dark power.


Fist of Raziel gets a constant Magic Circle Against Evil effect, but Zaydos was concerned this might undermine the capstone.
Oooh.... just had another idea.
Maybe something like the Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind) feat . (Suppressible, of course.) Make it only apply to hostile abilities, regardless of successful save or not, and casters will quickly learn not to target you with enchantments like Dominate Person.

[LoyalPaladin]

And I'm always happy to dish it out :smallamused:
:smallamused:


Just doing my part for the OCD English purists of the world.
I appreciate you.


Well when you say it like that, it sounds silly...

I was thinking about maneuvers when I wrote that, so I didn't really consider that properly. I suppose I'd be suggesting they get it as another spell known of a lower level. It'd probably just be easier to expand the spell list a little.
Haha. I dunno. I want to make their Advanced Learning meaningful... They've got a lot more choices than they did!


Hexblade some kind of Evil Cleric, confirmed. Half-Life 3 continues to cry in the corner.
I'll be honest, I thought the same thing. They're sort of like an arcane paladin, actually.


Looking at it, you'd almost want to combine the new one with Magic Eater, for simplicity's sake. Just a thought.
I'd create a new dead level that way...


Could also add that little bit about exempting people from the aura again.
I swear this forum keeps eating my edits. I feel like I've done this like four times now.


Are you actually taking an example from WotC material? Back when they were still making 3.5, they couldn't have said the word balance with a straight face.
From what I've experienced, you're hexed damned if you do balance against WotC and damned if you don't. Homebrew has to stand up against and alongside WotC material, but everyone likes to hate on WotC material. Hard to find a happy medium.


Vecna-Blooded is a cool template. My real issue is that it's a tad underwhelming, when you could put some kind of fantastic, insane curse ability at the end. I suppose it's really up to personal preference.
They do get a Grand Hex at the same level!


Loyal-senpai noticed me! Sugoi! Kill me.
Hahahahahahahaha!


College classes have been a pain of late, and today I finally had time to scrounge up Complete Arcane and the Mage Slayer line...and I may have an idea that could work. Give them the Mage Slayer feat, (or the option of another feat if they already have it), and they can ignore the "Special" text on the three feats in the Mage Slayer line.

Voilà, a mage slayer with unhindered spell casting ability of their own. :smallbiggrin:
I'm a little against modifying other feats, but suppose other classes have done it...


Oooh.... just had another idea.
Maybe something like the Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind) feat . (Suppressible, of course.) Make it only apply to hostile abilities, regardless of successful save or not, and casters will quickly learn not to target you with enchantments like Dominate Person.
I actually love this... I'll sit on it for a bit...

[Grand Arbiter]

I'm a little against modifying other feats, but suppose other classes have done it... You may need to specify it would only apply to Hexblade caster level. Otherwise those Duskblades and other gish-types will be all over it like green on peas.


I actually love this... I'll sit on it for a bit...
Just don't squish it. :smalltongue:

[Eno Remnant]

Maybe something like the Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind) feat . (Suppressible, of course.) Make it only apply to hostile abilities, regardless of successful save or not, and casters will quickly learn not to target you with enchantments like Dominate Person.

That is exactly what I was thinking of with my suggestion. Couldn't remember the feat, but there's a similar class feature on a couple of classes.


I appreciate you.

Aw, shucks :smallredface:



Haha. I dunno. I want to make their Advanced Learning meaningful... They've got a lot more choices than they did!

It's not like I'm suggesting you add more spells per day or spells known. Just a couple more spells on the list at each level to help with variety.



I'll be honest, I thought the same thing. They're sort of like an arcane paladin, actually.

https://65.media.tumblr.com/fb45b7c44ee2c89c98e031827f4e2ab6/tumblr_inline_n96b7xY55b1s51z1r.gif



I'd create a new dead level that way...

It's not really the end of the world if you do have one. Helps to put them at levels where you get a new level of spells, or your BAB and saves go up at the same time. So long as the player feels like it's worth continuing, it's fine.



From what I've experienced, you're hexed damned if you do balance against WotC and damned if you don't. Homebrew has to stand up against and alongside WotC material, but everyone likes to hate on WotC material. Hard to find a happy medium.

They do some things right. Tier 3 is full of examples that prove just that. The problem is that more often, they just unbalance in the opposite direction to try and fix the original imbalance.



They do get a Grand Hex at the same level!

This is true. I'll allow it.



I'm a little against modifying other feats, but suppose other classes have done it...

Be cool, be hip, embrace your inner peanut dracolich.



I actually love this... I'll sit on it for a bit...

What Libro said, with the exception that if it's Evil, squish it with extreme prejudice.

[LoyalPaladin]

Just don't squish it. :smalltongue:

What Libro said, with the exception that if it's Evil, squish it with extreme prejudice.

Eldritch Mind (Su):
At 15th level, a hexblade becomes immune to all Mind-Affecting effects. Whenever you are subject to a Mind-Affecting spell (regardless of whether the spell is harmful or beneficial to you), the spellcaster must make a Will saving throw against a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Charisma bonus or take 2d6 points of damage.
I don't think I squished it... It didn't register as evil!


It's not like I'm suggesting you add more spells per day or spells known. Just a couple more spells on the list at each level to help with variety.
I've expanded it from the original selection. The original one was no good. But if you have suggestions, shoot them my way.


Be cool, be hip, embrace your inner peanut dracolich.
But he's [Evil]... :smallconfused:

[Zaydos]

But he's [Evil]... :smallconfused:

No I'm EVIL, not [Evil], I don't have the subtype (which would be (Evil)), or any descriptor. [Evil] is only for spells :smalltongue:

[LoyalPaladin]

No I'm EVIL, not [Evil], I don't have the subtype (which would be (Evil)), or any descriptor. [Evil] is only for spells :smalltongue:
Oh, I see. So you're a NE Dragon (Undead)? Sort of like how I'm a LG Celestial (Outsider, Good, Lawful)? Hahaha.

[Zaydos]

Oh, I see. So you're a NE Dragon (Undead)? Sort of like how I'm a LG Celestial (Outsider, Good, Lawful)? Hahaha.

NE Undead (Augmented Dragon), you very rarely become something else once you become undead. Unless I'm actually a changeling pretending to be a dragon in which case I'd be a Humanoid (Changeling), or 5 gnomes in a mechanical dragon costume in which case I'd be 5 Humanoids (Gnome), and my alignment might be a lie.

[LoyalPaladin]

NE Undead (Augmented Dragon), you very rarely become something else once you become undead. Unless I'm actually a changeling pretending to be a dragon in which case I'd be a Humanoid (Changeling), or 5 gnomes in a mechanical dragon costume in which case I'd be 5 Humanoids (Gnome), and my alignment might be a lie.
Headcannon rewritten. Zaydos is officially five gnomes in a mechanical dragon costume.

[Eno Remnant]

Headcannon rewritten. Zaydos is officially five gnomes in a mechanical dragon costume.

I'll buy that. It's that or he's secretly a robotic dragon created by one of Jormengand's Inventors, that somehow got Awakened.

As for Eldritch Mind, I like it. I think the class is pretty much good, though I'll drop a suggestion of increasing the healing mechanic to 2d4, since it's the only healing the class gets and it's not that much.

Now, time for everyone's favourite part of an Eno review - the Charisma-based dips to get the most out of the class!

I'm thinking Battle Dancer 1/Junior Tormlet 1/Bard 1/Hexblade 17. Battle Dancer gives you CHA to AC, Junior Tormlet adds CHA to saves. Bard gives you access to Snowflake Wardance for CHA to attack, and your other feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) and all the Extra Music you can cram in.

From there you pick up Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows or Slippers of Battledancing (or both), an item to mitigate fatigue and a spiked chain. Increase your base speed and initiative as much as possible, run into a Wizard's personal space, never let them cast again and tear them apart with AoOs when they try to escape you.

My shenanigans aside, I love this class and I'm eager to play it. Kudos on the good work, Loyal.

[LoyalPaladin]

As for Eldritch Mind, I like it. I think the class is pretty much good, though I'll drop a suggestion of increasing the healing mechanic to 2d4, since it's the only healing the class gets and it's not that much.
Wouldn't that be a bit much? I suppose the most it would be is 18d4 and that's barely anything by the time you get 9th level spells.


I'm thinking Battle Dancer 1/Junior Tormlet 1/Bard 1/Hexblade 17. Battle Dancer gives you CHA to AC, Junior Tormlet adds CHA to saves. Bard gives you access to Snowflake Wardance for CHA to attack, and your other feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) and all the Extra Music you can cram in.
That would be awesome hahaha.


My shenanigans aside, I love this class and I'm eager to play it. Kudos on the good work, Loyal.
Glad you like it!

[Eno Remnant]

Wouldn't that be a bit much? I suppose the most it would be is 18d4 and that's barely anything by the time you get 9th level spells.

Never mind, I'm stupid, I forgot that it was per level of the spell. 1d4 per level is fine.

[LoyalPaladin]

Never mind, I'm stupid, I forgot that it was per level of the spell. 1d4 per level is fine.
Oh, hahaha. Yeah...

I'm proud of this class now.

[LoyalPaladin]

Updated:
Fixed some formatting issues and I broke the table trying to make it look nice, so now it looks nicer.