League Of Legends LXVII: "MY PICK'EMS!"

[Ashen Lilies]

honorary title:
League of Legends LXVII: "Ivern'd It"



Welcome! You can sign up for League of Legends here (http://signup.leagueoflegends.com/en/signup/). It's a free MOBA based on Defense of the Ancients.

If it sounds like we're speaking a foreign language in here, the glossary of LoL terms (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_of_Legends_terminology) can help you with that.

We maintain lists of players, sorted by server. If you are not on these lists and would like to be, please post in the thread with the following information in bold: Server (if you don't know it, it's likely the region you're in, but it's worth checking anyway), your Forum Name, and your Summoner Name. It's also a good idea to go ahead and send me a PM with such information to ensure I see it.

If no reply's been made about adding you after a day or two, first check the lists to see if you've been added. If not, feel free to post again or PM me. Any incorrectly formatted posts may be overlooked.

BR Server MORDEKAISER ES NUMERO UNO


Forum Name
Game Name


Draken
Draken Frosthand


Slayn82
Slayn82




NA Server


Forum Name
Game Name


0tt3r
0tt3r


9mm
cwcriner


Adumbration
Benefice


aethernox
joyless


Alemil
Alemil


Alter
AlterForm


Anarion
Anarion55


Anonomuss
OpticalSage


Antonok
Antonok


Arbitrarity
Arbitrarity


ArcanistSupreme
Arcanist Supreme


Archangel Yuki
Yocham


Artanis
LegacyCWAL


Ashen Lilies
AshenLilies


assassin89
nineballcirno


Astrella
Sirroelivan


Astrro
Astrro


AtwasAwamps
AtwasAwamps


Aurenthal
Estor


Averis Vol
AverisVol


Baron Corm
Baron Corm


Baxter
Thefettered


big teej
big teej


BinaryMage
BinaryMage


Bliss Authority
Companion N00b


Blueiji
Blueiji


BobVosh
BobVosh -or- VoshBob


Bookboy
Keledrath


Brother Oni
MarineHK4861


Caffeine
excesscaffeine


Caradryan
Ying Quliang


Careem Soda
Careem Soda


CarpeGuitarrem
CarpeGuitarrem


Castleraven
Castleraven


cdstephens
cdstephens


Chess435
Chess435


Clarkson
fkrts


Copacetic
Azbu


Creed
Moarzed


CrnvorousMeece
CarnivorousMeece


Croverus
Croverus


Cute_Riolu
Cute Riolu


Dante & Vergil
Raphiezar


Darius Macab
Hawkfrost000


Darth Mario
Darth Mario


Daverin
Daverin


Demotivated
Demotivated


Dentrag2
Callinectes


dgnslyr
GANKERLagann


Dichotomy
Kaellin


Dire Ferret
Guvna Kit Kit


Djinn in Tonic
The Djinn


Dogmantra
Dogmantra


Don Julio Anejo
Don Julio Anejo


douglas
DouglasM


Doxkid
Doxkid


Dragonus45
Dragonus45


Drager0
Drager0


Dragor
Supernaturalist


Draken
Draken Frosthand


DrakeRaids
DrakeRaids057


Dralnu
TomerIsHot


Drizztfan24
Drizztfan24


Duck999
Duck999


dukexx
JacksonHicks


Duos
DapperGuy


Dusk Eclipse
DuskShadow


efdf
efdf


EifieFlare
EifieFlare


Elagune
Chopstyx


Eldariel
Elealar


EndlessWrath
Andurin


Epicfaillol
Ether Master


Errandir
Ramses III


EternalMelon
EternalMelon


faith
Ferrovax101


FantomFang
FantomFang


Farix
Jiin in Tin


Faulty
FaultyClockwork


Fawkes
Count Fawkes


FeverFox
Alcopop


Firedaemon33
Firedaemon33


fjolnir
fjolnir


Flagpole
Flagpole


Flarowon
Kruin Avabruc


Flechair
Master Zealot


FleshrakerAbuse
Archdruid21


Folytopo
Folytopo


Forrestfire
Forrestfire15


Frankelshtein
McFinkelstein


Fredaintdead
Fredthefighter


Freudianship
LeiteaSalk


Gallus
Anechois


Geigan
Geigan


Giant Panda
Le Shirrif


gimliggamer
Wizard Warlock


Gizladlo
Gizladlo


glemis
glemis


Godskook
Bethor Kookalian


Gourtox
Gourtox


Gruffard
Gruffard


Grytorm


HalfTangible
HalfTangible


hamiltond465
Duodecimus


Hanuman
HanumanXoO


Happy Gravity
Deimosaur


Hatevah
Hatevah


heronbpv
Avan


Hicks
Jacksonhicks


Holocron Coder
Holocron


Hullabaloo
Sosrey


Incomp
Incomp


InyutheBeatIs
Believe Inyu


Istari
IstariK


Ivellius
Ivellius


Jamin
CapZich


Jaxzan Proditor
Jaxzan Proditor


JKTrickster
ZenTrickster


Joran
Jorana


KaizoMK
KaizoMK


Kara Kuro
RaptorKitty


Kciemir
Ghostface Ki11ah


Kettle
Kettle747


king.com
kingcom


Kinslayer
HaunterReqiuem


Kirbot
Kirbot


kmchii
kmchii


knightMARE
Sir Wiffleston


Kopaka
Portent


Kotarus
Adrameleck


Kwazey
Kwazey


Lansky
Blurbie


Laudandus
Laudandus


LegoShrimp
LegoShrimp


LightWraith
TheLightWraith


Lil Shiro
Mizz Mitchell


litewarior
litewarior


Lonely Tylenol
If I Had a Hifi


Lord_Gareth
Prince of Knives


Lord Generic
Lord Generic


LordShotGun
LordShotGun


LostEnder
LostEnder


Low-Key
TheFuzziestBear


Lunix Vandal
Lunix Vandal


lvl 1 sharnian
StarryEagle


Lyrakien
Lyrakien


Lyxie
Lyxie


Mabn
Gafslicher


Maeglin_Dubh
Tycho Velius


Makensha
Jarbis


MammonAzrael
MammonAzrael


Manticoran
Manticoran


Maryring
Skilvrel


MasatoHyuga
MasatoHyuga


Master_Rahl22
Goltoth


master256
QWERTYSTOP


Masterkerfuffle
Masterkerfuffle


Math_Mage
Mathmage


Mathematicae
Mathematicae


Mattarias, King.
Mattarias


Malmagor Andrigal
Madmal


Maxios
Maxios20


McCerberus
MCerberus


McDougal
McDouggal


Meatshield#236
Meatshield236


Merellis
Merellis


Mike_the_Mystic
Kraemer


Milskidasith
Milskidasith


Mindfreak586
Mindfreak586


Mirrinus
Parallaxal


Miscast_Mage
MiscastMage


Moklok
KokoBWare


Mr. Mud
Proposal


mrcarter11
Mrcarter11


mrzomby
mrzomby


Mtg_player_zach
MtgPlayerZach


Mushroom Ninja
Mushroom Ninja


Mutant Bunny
WhollySpart


Nadevoc
Xenik


Nanoblack
IwearSILLYhats


Nargan
Naryuk


Necroticplague
Yamidamian


Neoseanster
Neoseanster


NeoSeraphi
NeoSeraphi


NeoVid
NeoVid


Nerocite
Nerocite


neXianXavia
neXianXavia



Ninja_Grand
Ninja_Grand


NoobForHire
Mashed Taters


NotAEvilToaster
NeonPie


oblivion6
warcrown10


Octopus Jack
Thalric


Olinser
Olinser


One Tin Soldier
beelzebubcbgptch


Otomodachi
Cyfarfod


Outsideheaven
Outsideheaven


Perkinz
Perkinz


PersonMan
Nsev


Pie Guy
Qwazes


pilvento
Kandrass


PhantomFox
PhantomFox7


PhoeKun
PhoeKun


Pocal
Pocalem


Poison Fish
Baron Von Flib


Postmodernist
Postmodernist


Protecar
Godreig


Protecar
Atk


Psychotic
SquirrelFish


Qaera
Qaera


ragingrage
ragingrage


Raistlin1040
Sanevale


Rama
Nargus


Raroy
setokaibasmt


RationalGoblin
AtillathePun


Raven444
Iskandarl


Raveypoos
Rhaviewoos


Reinboom
Riot Reinboom


recklessabaddon
recklessabaddon


Reprimand
BardicMusic


revolver kobold
A Magic Kobold


Reynard
Duke Reynington


Ryomasa
Ryomasa


Sallera
Sallera


Saveducks
ElGrandisimo


Serpentine
Lady Serpentine


Shades of Gray
PierreAbelard


shadowwalker64
shadowwalker65


Shadowleaf
Shadowdancing


Shadow Lord
ShadowLordgiantitp


Shadowy
DJPON3Vinyl


Samshiir
Samshiir


ShortOne
LittlePoppy


SidCoolios
Irazel


Silverraptor
Silverraptor


Siosilvar
Siosilvar


Sircarp
Sircarp


SirSigfried
LibertarianSDR


Slash_712
Catfud


[redacted]
sofawall


sonofzeal
sonofzeal


St. Viers
St.Viers


Starfols
Starfols


Starswords
Starswords


SuperPanda
Lokilar


TalonDemonKing
TalonDemonKing


TechnOkami
Techn0kami


Temotei
Temotei221


Terazul
Allegretto


term1nally s1ck
silverdevilboy


tesla_pasta
9voltrailgun


TheAmishPirate
TheAmishPirate


Thanatos 51-50
Thanatos Erebus


The_Ditto
Ditto11


The_Fiery_Tower
TFT


TheGlowingRogue
I Glow In Dark


Themage
AFK


Thethan
Thethan


The Hellbug
hellbug22


The Rabbler
Paco H Jones


The Shadowmind
The Shadowmind


The Valiant Turtle
Valiant Turtle


Thrantar
Thrantar


Thrawn183
Thrawnyboy


throtecutter
throtecutter


toasty
toastymow


Thomas Cadrew
DecadentPheonix


Tono
Tono Chou


Treayn
Treayn


tribble
Smallbluedot


Tychris1
Tychris1


u-gotNOgame
UGNG -or- Sirius Amory


userpay
userpay


Vauron
Vauron


Vogie
Vogie


Volatar
The Volatar


Vwulf DeMarcus
NinjaXeq


wandiya
wandiya


Wolf_Haley
Jon Talbain


Winterwind
DreamingHeart


Winthur
Seyruun


WyvernLord
WyvernThornKing


woodzyowl
Woodzyowl


XaioTie
Tiefernan


Yaktan
Yaktan


Zabbarot
Zabbarot


Zeful
Zeful


ZeltArruin
ZeltArruin


Zemro
Shivic


ZeroNumerous
ZeroNumerous


Zeteni
Zeteni


Zinc
El Jaun Zinco


zmasterofjersey
GhosTazer


zolga
TheZolga




EU Server--West


Forum Name
Game Name


Acromos
Crannoch


Adumbration
Adumbration


Anonomuss
Anonomuss


Azimov
Sidhe de Athame


Brother Oni
MarineHK4861


Cheers
Sam vds


Cyborg Mage
Cyborg Mage98


Dallas-Dakota
ThePirateHobbit


Eldariel
Elealar


Even Human
SlyGuyMcFly


fishjam
fishjam


Gauntlet
Isva


GreenSerpent
Darius or Draven


HalfDragonCube
giantmudkip



Krazzman
Viskerin


Maryring
Skilvrel


Maxymiuk
Maxymiuk


Mc. Lovin
B1GB1RDB4G3L


Miscast_Mage
MiscastMage


monkeyboyinc
monkeyboyinc


Morph Bark
Morpheus Bob


Nargan
Naryuk


Outsideheaven
Outsideheaven


PersonMan
Scarge


Reb46
Reb46


Reynard
Duke Reyn


Runhidesurvive
Jmack10


Saph
StarSaph


SanguisAevum
Sanguis Aevum


shadowwalker64
shadowwalker64


Socratov
Mbutu


Stuebi
Stuebi


Talesin
Fridgecake


term1nally s1ck
Silverdevilboy


That'd_be_me
AntiLocke


TheGeckoKing
Alpharis Omega


Volatar
VolatarUK


Winterwind
DreamingHeart


Ziren
Zirenoid


zolga
MasterZolga




EU Server--Unspecified


Forum Name
Game Name


Abakus
Terpfen


Alemil
Alemil


Ayra
Ayramatao


Darwin
DarwinBeGood


Endoperez
Endoperez


Heliomance
Sidhe de Grian


Kurrel
GrinningOni


littlebottom
Littlebottom


lord_khaine
Lord_khaine


Narazil
Narazil


Narkis
Narkis


Penthar
Malderon


Raviepoos
Skittles Unicorn


Shadowleaf
AncientPharma


Voidhawk
Sidhe ne Awk


Zefir
Einerwie


Zombywoof
Zombywoof




LA North Server


Forum Name
Game Name


Dusk Eclipse
DuskSoul


Mtg_player_zach
G0dless


UrashimaJamez
UrashimaJamez




SEA Server


Forum Name
Game Name


abadguy
Smite Thy Enemy


Haruspex_Pariah
Haruspex




Oceanic Server


Forum Name
Game Name


One Step Two
Tempest656


Red Rubber Band
HeWhoIsJohn


Sajiri
Sajiri




Turkey (TR) Server


Forum Name
Game Name


Eloel
[unknown]




MUMBLE
Download here! (http://mumble.sourceforge.net/)
Our main means of communication is a Mumble server, playing host to a variety of games, including LoL. We're quite a tight knit community, get to know us! Hanging about is a good way to find a game, and if you don't fancy playing something there's always a good chance of a friendly chat. Contact Ryomasa via PM if you have a question or want to donate money to keep the server running.
Address: fish.mumbleboxes.com
Port: 36003

The Admin and Moderators: Ryomasa, Manticoran, Vampire Pumpkin, Haunter, TFT, EternalMelon

STREAMS
Some of us run streams. You can watch them here.
Legoshrimp (http://www.twitch.tv/legoshrimp)
McDouggal (http://www.twitch.tv/McDouggal)
Silverraptor (http://www.livestream.com/silverrapter?t=527242)
The Fiery Tower (http://www.twitch.tv/the_fiery_tower)

GUIDES & CHAMPION OVERVIEWS
Sometimes people write guides and post them in this thread. Other times pro players write guides that people then post in this thread. They often end up here. With all of the updates to the game over the years, these may be somewhat dated, but a lot of the information is still useful.
Champion Introductions:
Thanks to Eldariel, Playgrounders in Thread XLV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277003) wrote blurbs to introduce players to their favorite champions. Yay.
Ahri (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14981225&postcount=520) by SlyGuyMcFly
Alistar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15079170&postcount=297) by Joran
Amumu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14991206&postcount=727) by Ivellius
Anivia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971268&postcount=332) by Eldariel
Annie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14972307&postcount=366) by endoperez
Caitlyn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973242&postcount=375) by McDougal
Cho'Gath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973137&postcount=374) by Happy Gravity
Janna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14976717&postcount=424) by Winthur
Fizz (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971765&postcount=345) by PersonMan
Hecarim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973331&postcount=377) by Arbitrarity
Irelia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14980231&postcount=502) by aethernox
Kennen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973033&postcount=372) by Anarion
LeBlanc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15049895&postcount=15) by Miscast_Mage
Lulu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14975266&postcount=413) by Kris on a Stick
Nasus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971542&postcount=340) by TheShrike
Nocturne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15057985&postcount=97) by Darius Macab
Olaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14972935&postcount=371) by dgnslyr
Rengar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14974241&postcount=387) by ChaosOS
Singed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14976931&postcount=427) by QWERTSTOP
Skarner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14984458&postcount=591) by TechnOkami
Sona (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971676&postcount=344) by Forrestfire
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14975078&postcount=409) by Math_Mage
Vi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14976557&postcount=423) by Pherinos
Zyra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14982344&postcount=541) by The Fiery Tower

General Guides:
A General Guide to Support (http://tpesports.net/index.php?site=articles&action=show&articlesID=32), by Math Mage
Guide to General Common Jungler Set-Ups (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575), by Mtg_player_zach
Small Guide to Jungle Counterpicking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12379254&postcount=98), by Winthur
General Guide to AD Carries (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9234)
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Turning Skill Into Elo: Solo Queue Mindset And Methodology (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1220673) by MathMage
How to be a Good Team Leader (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1374492) by Darth Mario

Specific Champion Guides:
Be warned. These guides are, by and large, outdated. Much of the information referenced in these guides has been made obsolete as a result of League's natural patch cycle and changes from Season to Season. If you're looking for information on a champion, you'll have better luck at SoloMid.net (http://solomid.net/guides.php?champ=&sort=2&display=4&x=98&y=9) or LolPro.com (http://LoLPro.com). Alternatively, ask the thread!
Riven 101 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12579737&postcount=204), by Arbitrarity
Highly Artistic Blitzcrank guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12380155&postcount=115), by Dogmantra
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra
Anivia Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11514141&postcount=845) by Eldariel
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11938481&postcount=1029) by MathMage
Videos*
Raise your ELO MMR by 400 points with these easy tricks! Or just have a good time.
Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
Season One Trailer with Commentary (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/season-one-trailer-commentary)
D-Town (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHp4VJ47v0)
Insanity Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKN1Adzckk&feature=related)
(Truly, Truly) Outrageous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7S05vI-BU&feature=related)
I'm just a noob (Ryze Ryze Ryze again) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpr1T-pgaZY&feature=related)
e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
Your -Epic- Dreamhack comes true! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg)
Ezreal Custom Skin Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c)
I Just Got Ganked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNVN33fj4Y&feature=channel_video_title)
Keep Feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaR0frKc4a0)
Champion Rap Battles -- Brolaf vs. Gentleman Cho'Gath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI)
Combinasion BOOM! League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzsXR4sM_Y)
All in the Cards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9d3342IXSs)
No One Ganks Like Garen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4uiTQsRJg)
Rammus Taunts Everyone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8Q4PM4PXM)


COMICS AND PICS
Art in its purest form, surely.LoL Comic (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=48169) by Elagune
Learn Your Alphabet (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6264/g28376.png) by Dogmantra and Pierreabelard (with a mention in Summoner Showcase #36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy7JWV-HA28&feature=feedu)!)
Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
Gender Swaps (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=606416) by ShowMeYourMoves
Champion Flowchart Guides (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=608154) by Renekton Bot
Patch Day Comic (http://i.imgur.com/kHtwk.jpg) by DaemianFF

PREVIOUS THREADS
Behold the discussions of the past!

League of Legends LXVI: Hosted by Jhin_In_Tonic and Starring Aurelion LOL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481651)
League of Legends LXV: "What threads are mine to make, little Lamb?" "All, dear Wolf." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?452100)
League of Legends LXIV: 404 Thread Title Not Found (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426628)
League of Legends LXIII: You Spoony Bard! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402202)
**league_of_legends_thread_62: show_running_gag_title("The Wins Of Winthur"); (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377485)
League-of-legends-LXI-Demaglia! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367660-League-of-legends-LXI-Demaglia!)
League of Legends LX: A Song of Loss and Ire - Dance at Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361165-League-of-Legends-LX-A-Song-of-Loss-and-Ire-Dance-at-Dragon)
League of Legends LIX: Ice Cream, Stamps, and Lorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353629-League-of-Legends-LIX-Ice-Cream-Stamps-and-Lorn)
League of Legends LVIII: URFworld (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17244032&postcount=1)
League of Legends LVII: A Song of Loss and Ire - A Feast for Cho (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331764-League-of-Legends-LVII-A-Song-of-Loss-and-Ire-A-Feast-for-Cho)
League of Legends lVI: ME BRO! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325851)
League of Legends LV: A Song of Loss and Ire - A Storm of Wards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319175)
League of Legends: We will LIV, they will die (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312431)
League of Legends LIII: A Song of Loss and Ire - A Clash of Pings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307325)
League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302528)
League of Legends LI: A Song of Loss and Ire - A Game of Throws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298396)
League of Legends L: Lucian's Lost Love's Luxurious Lantern Lodge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293376)
League of Legends XLIX: Why are there snowballs in a jungle? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289027)
League of Legends XLVIII: A Broken Spine is Just a Twist of Fate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15339231#post15339231)
League of Legends XLVII: Legend of Poro - Retcons on Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282669)
League of Legends XLVI: Everybody now comes from Freljord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279408)
League of Legends XLV: They ruined the King AND his blade! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277003)
League of Legends XLIV: *SQUAWK* Who's there? *SQUAWK* League of Legends XLIV who? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273412)
League of Legends XLIII: Now with 100% more Leagues. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270068)
League of Legends XLII: I Hope The New Champ Is Vi-able (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266201)
League of Legends XLI: Fish Are Friends, Not Food (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263722)
League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'till Morello Gets Gold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261213)
League of Legends XXXIX: Harrowing in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14079780#post14079780)
League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13921041)
League of Legends XXXVII: Thread Name Delayed for Further Testing on PBE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253343)
League of Legends XXXVI: Thread Now Invisible When You're Not Looking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250948)
League of Legends XXXV: Jayce, the Defender of Soon™ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248760)
League of Legends XXXIV: No Exceptions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246004)
League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13142848#post13142848)
League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237600)
League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF And Janna! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234631)
League of Legends XXX: Must be Summoner Level 18 to View (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231927)
League of Legends XXIX: We Must Ask: Are Nerfs Vayne In This Grave Situation? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229460)
League of Legends XXVIII: Ahri-Vederci, Dodge. Hello, Viktory. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12466887)
League of Legends XXVII: Your Sister's Hotter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225730)
League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223894)
League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221849)
League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219436)
League of Legends XXIII: gunbladeface.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217744)
League of Legends XXII: Teamwork OP, Nerf Nao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215725)
League of Legends XXI: For The Love Of God Amumu, Stop Crying! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213794)
League of Legends XX: Riot's in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211977)
League of Legends XIX: 15 million players, and nary a Morgana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210332)
League of Legends: XVIII: ┻━┻ ︵ （╯°□°）╯ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207908)
League of Legends XVII: Gondor Has No Tank, Gondor Needs No Tank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205488)
League of Legends XVI: Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203298)
League of Legends XV: Robots Are Better Than Trees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201024)
League of Legends XIV: We're So Broken That We're OP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198948)
League of Legends XIII: Our Skill is Hard to Deny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196765)
League of Legends XII: It's Worth It Because I Said So In The Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194886)
League of Legends XI: It's Hard to Post Like This in Heels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192695)
League of Legends X: Armored Armadillo Delivers Ambiguous Affirmative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189950-League-of-Legends-X-Armored-Armadillo-Delivers-Ambiguous-Affirmative)
League of Legends IX: New Thread Available! Only 6300 IP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188076)
League of Legends VIII: Gali-Os: They're idolicious! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185516)
League of Legends 7: Truly, Truly Outrageous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182486)
League of Legends 6: Jannaaaaaaaaaa! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178334)
League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
League of Legends 4:CAWCAWCAWCAWCAWCAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169616)
League of Legends 3: You only need to click once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164008s)
League of Legends Goes Where It Pleases 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158135)
League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)

[lord_khaine]

(personally, I still prefer "NA Thread Title" out of my three contributions, because threads are slower and it has better staying power over "Ivern'd It" for just one champion release, or "MY PICK'EMS!" for just Worlds)

Well.. what a surprise.. noone from anywhere else in the world liked that suggestion? :smalltongue:

[Vogie]

I was really hoping that we'd use the explosion one.

But alas...

I should request that C9 be my pallbearers, so even in death they can let me down one more time.

[Ashen Lilies]

Speaking of Pick'ems, unfortunately it seems that Carter and I have the exact same picks for the rest of the tournament. So no matter what happens, I won't be able to overtake him. :smallmad:

[mrcarter11]

I'm pretty sure most people have what I have or something very similar. The only real differences I saw were some people had ANX win over H2k and some had Rox going to finals instead of SKT and then winning over Samsung.

[Olinser]

I cynically put C9 to win not because I thought they were going to beat SSG, but because that would have let me win the pick em group. I HAD FAITH!!! And regardless of who wins H2K vs ANX I think they would have been steamrolled by either C9 or SSG.


Anyway, Day 2 of the Quarters!

Suprising win by RNG, I thought SKT made a couple pretty questionable calls. They gave up a free dragon where RNG was nowhere near being able to contest, then at the end they started up a 2 man Baron and had a really disjointed commitment to a teamfight that let RNG just clean them up and win the game. Bengi sat alone on Baron for a REALLY long time before he finally went over the wall, and the rest of the team was just kind of strung out and not coordinated.

It just felt like SKT was off their game. We'll see if they can pull it back together and take the series.

[Forum Explorer]

C9 vs SSG
Well that's disappointing. Not really surprising, but disappointing. All of my hopes and dreams are on ANX Luna now.

[Artanis]

I cynically put C9 to win not because I thought they were going to beat SSG, but because that would have let me win the pick em group.

Similar reasoning led me to take FNC as the champions last year. It cost me about ten positions in the final group standings :smallfrown:

[Olinser]

Convincing win by SKT, they seem to have adjusted accordingly.

Based on this game I think SKT is going to take the series.


They let Faker have Syndra. Calling this one for SKT right now.

Called it. Faker turned 2 great teamfights on Syndra. Come on. You can't let Faker have Syndra.

Holy crap though Duke was on a freaking RAMPAGE in that top lane. He picked up 3 different solo kills that I saw. Poor MLXG. He was so tilted on that last chase.

[Yael]

Called it. Faker turned 2 great teamfights on Syndra. Come on. You can't let Faker have Syndra.

Holy crap though Duke was on a freaking RAMPAGE in that top lane. He picked up 3 different solo kills that I saw. Poor MLXG. He was so tilted on that last chase.

Oh gawd. I literally busted in laught when Duke approached and the casters were like: run! here it comes! And MLXG just Safeguard'ed away from the gnar.

That was pure tilt.

Also, SKT's just besting RNG from game 2+. It's probably a 3-1 for SKT.

[Olinser]

The gold was kind of close for a lot of the game but RNG was just totally outmatched. SKT had better rotations, better control, better everything.

[lord_khaine]

This is why the tournaments im generally hyped about is less worlds, and more the ones about who are going to worlds. There are generally a lot more tension in those, unlike here where Koreans steamroll everything.

[Nadevoc]

I just want to remind everyone to please keep spoilers in spoiler tags for at least a few days after a game.

[lord_khaine]

The Koreans steamroll everything is a comment that mainly comes from having seen the previous worlds, this years i have not really bothered.

[mrcarter11]

Well that was an interesting series. The first game as mentioned above seemed off for SKT. RNG continued to seem sloppy though. Game 2 SKT had a gold lead before laning started and never let it go. Blank on zac was new, super solid performance though. Wolf continued to impress me on zyra. Game 3 featured Faker on syndra and Duke on gnar. Duke woke up this game and went off. It was like the Najin days again. Game 4 was more of the same. Duke continued to impress. Blank overall had a great series, one of his best since his start on SKT.

[Olinser]

Day 3 of quarters people!

I think I'm giving this one to ROX based on the draft. I feel like too much of EDG's late game is on that Ryze, who will have a lot of trouble getting forward through a Sol with Rylai and a Zyra.

Yep, ROX took it without any big issues. EDG just didn't have any way to start a team fight other than blowing the Rumble ult, they just had no pick ability when they got behind.

I feel like EDG can definitely give this series a run, though, if they re-orient and adjust.

I dunno about Rox's lineup here. Without a power threat in the top lane they're basically banking 100% on that Caitlyn late game, while EDG has completely changed for a hard engage comp.

Think this one is probably going to go to EDG.

Well, well I'm wrong I'm wrong. Rox got ahead and twisted the knife.

EDG not going down without a fight. Deft was finally able to get going, and I feel like Smeb was kind of tilting - he had so many deaths on Fiora.

Pretty convincing win by ROX. EDG just couldn't get a good fight and were getting caught out left and right.

[Reinboom]

So, after a series of "the film I'm working on is suddenly going into production around that time" and "I couldn't get the university to respond to the time away request"...

I have an extra ticket for League semi-finals AND an extra paid for bed / hotel room about a block away from MSG.

Anyone here able and want to go?

[Ionbound]

https://youtu.be/vc8sztpxO34

[shadow_archmagi]

So, after a series of "the film I'm working on is suddenly going into production around that time" and "I couldn't get the university to respond to the time away request"...

I have an extra ticket for League semi-finals AND an extra paid for bed / hotel room about a block away from MSG.

Anyone here able and want to go?

Wow, what an opportunity! I think it's super cool of you to put that out here. Tragically, Uni means I can't go.

[Eldest]

So, after a series of "the film I'm working on is suddenly going into production around that time" and "I couldn't get the university to respond to the time away request"...

I have an extra ticket for League semi-finals AND an extra paid for bed / hotel room about a block away from MSG.

Anyone here able and want to go?

Wanting, yes. I'm on the other side of a continent though, sadly.

[Ashen Lilies]

Holy **** I was expecting H2K to win, but I wasn't expecting them to look this good doing it.

They are crushing the Russian team.

[Duck999]

Holy **** I was expecting H2K to win, but I wasn't expecting them to look this good doing it.

They are crushing the Russian team.

MY PICK 'EMS!
I was hoping ANX would win, expecting H2K, but also expected a more even match (maybe at least 3-1).

[Ashen Lilies]

get rekt :smallamused:

So right now I'm standing alone behind Carter. Which is where I'll stay, unfortunately, since we both have the same picks.

That being the case, I'm definitely hoping for an H2K upset against SSG, even though I picked SSG to win, so we can have a western team in finals instead of the KR vs. KR regional matchup.

[mrcarter11]

get rekt :smallamused:

So right now I'm standing alone behind Carter. Which is where I'll stay, unfortunately, since we both have the same picks.

That being the case, I'm definitely hoping for an H2K upset against SSG, even though I picked SSG to win, so we can have a western team in finals instead of the KR vs. KR regional matchup.

To be fair, several people could still beat me. 3-4 people are within 20 points of me and have Rox beating SKT, which would let them pass me without any issue.

[Ashen Lilies]

Right. There's still the possibility that someone could overtake both of us. But I in particular am incapable of overtaking you, so I'm rooting against myself for an H2K in finals now. :smalltongue:

[mrcarter11]

Right. There's still the possibility that someone could overtake both of us. But I in particular am incapable of overtaking you, so I'm rooting against myself for an H2K in finals now. :smalltongue:

Apologies, I misread and thought you were saying I had essentially won. :smallredface:

[Nadevoc]

It's a shame that ANX gave up such a disastrous double kill right at the beginning of game one. It really felt like that tilted them and their mindset went into a tailspin that I'm not sure they ever recovered from. By the end of the match, they were starting to make a couple of nice plays, but it was just way too late. Recovering a bad mindset can be tough, and it's one of the things that can separate the wildcard teams that don't have quite the same discipline and support staff.

That said, congrats are still in order for ANX on making it out of groups. That alone was way more than expected, and I'm still a fan of what I've seen of them in interviews.

[lord_khaine]

I think most people outside Korea is hoping for something besides a Korea vs Korea final, even if it sounds rather unlikely. But i guess it at least means we would get a decent finale with a bit of tension.

[Vogie]

I think most people outside Korea is hoping for something besides a Korea vs Korea final, even if it sounds rather unlikely. But i guess it at least means we would get a decent finale with a bit of tension.



I know I sure am bummed. The whole point of having a "worlds" feels lost each time it comes down to Korea vs Korea, or China vs Taiwan.

It's like that Jim Gaffigan joke:

The President of the United States is selected by an electoral college, based on Popular Vote. The Secretary General of the United Nations is chosen by a community of countries

Mr. Universe is selected by... five Italian Guys from Long Island

[Duck999]

ADC ZHONYAS!
That might be exaggerating a little. However, there is an item coming out in 2017 that will stop those pesky Zed ults and Karthus ults. Kind of.

I like the assassin changes they are making, especially Talon's e. I'm going to have a lot of fun with that one.

[Ashen Lilies]

I'm super excited to play the new LeBlanc and Katarina.

Meanwhile, the Akali passive change and Fizz QWR changes are actually pretty significant.

Meanwhile meanwhile, Zed on an quest to find the highest AD target on the map and murder their face off in the eternal search for SLIGHTLY HIGHER AD (rip Jhin).

(this is when the ADC trolls the enemy Zed by going a full AS/on-hit build, just to spite him)

[Dienekes]

ADC ZHONYAS!
That might be exaggerating a little. However, there is an item coming out in 2017 that will stop those pesky Zed ults and Karthus ults. Kind of.

I like the assassin changes they are making, especially Talon's e. I'm going to have a lot of fun with that one.

I have a feeling Talon's E is gonna be that big unbalanced thing that happens with each of these class updates. The shear utility will be ridiculous.

I'm probably wrong though, I don't think I'm a good enough player to actually analyze this stuff. Except for the Malzahar update. Literally everyone called that one.

[Ionbound]

ADC ZHONYAS!
That might be exaggerating a little. However, there is an item coming out in 2017 that will stop those pesky Zed ults and Karthus ults. Kind of.

I like the assassin changes they are making, especially Talon's e. I'm going to have a lot of fun with that one.

Where are you getting that from? Sorcerer's Bane? Because let me promise you, that won't be built on an ADC. That'll be built on a Talon that just walked over the perfectly positioned Flame Chompers I just laid down to tear me a couple different new behinds.

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

I don't think that's a good idea, honestly. Jinx was not only strong in general, but ALSO was dominant in lanes against other Marksmen. She (and a few other Marksmen) might need some tweaks or itemization love, but I actually think she'll be fine: most of the new Assassins seem to be built around a longer kill window, which gives Jinx and her ilk more time to fight back.

Plus, if you WERE going to tweak her, I'm not sure I'd stick more/faster stacks on her Q as my way to do it. I'd be more interested to see her other abilities buffed up a bit, since there are a bunch of "fast attacking" Marksmen and it's not the most interesting thing about them.

[Duck999]

Where are you getting that from? Sorcerer's Bane? Because let me promise you, that won't be built on an ADC. That'll be built on a Talon that just walked over the perfectly positioned Flame Chompers I just laid down to tear me a couple different new behinds.

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

That's my one big problem with that. It is made for assassins. This would have been great for the ADC update. Assassins now just dodge the first cc upon engaging. However, depending on the enemy team comp, it will likely be built on some ADCs.

[Ionbound]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

[Nadevoc]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

Um, what?

Zap! is poke with a slow attached (super good for sniping a kill, cutting off a route, or just slowing an enemy - that's a pretty hefty slow on it).

Chompers are mostly disengage, yeah, but they're decent at it, and can double as engage in lane.

Both are 100% useful abilities.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

...I'd argue her abilities are incredibly potent, actually, and that she has quite a few healthy levers to pull. :smalltongue:

[Yael]

Finished playing new Kha'Zix.

• Passive works pretty much the same.
• Evolved Q does the same, still a good option to Evolve first.
• Evolved W is a better tool for ganking solo lanes, and for counterjungle.
• Evolved E has no changes.
• His Evolved R is good for both midlane roam and skirmishes at the jungle. Good for soloQ.

[Ivellius]

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

While Talon arguably doesn't have the map mobility at the moment to be as effective, Rengar can do that right now and probably more easily than he will be able to. All the changes should put him more in play, however.

Also, new D&Dish skins? Those are good.

[Vogie]

I really like the changes that they're making

Here's an interesting idea - with abilities like Shunpo/Safeguard, the new Talon E, and the reworked Cassiopeia (who cannot buy any boots)... Do you think we will see Riot release a champion that CANNOT choose flash as a summoner spell?

[thracian]

FOGGY Fixed most instances of enemy ability VFX showing up through fog of war when Spectator Mode is toggled to one team’s view. Maybe all of them. League has a lot of abilities.

Does this also fix abilities being visible through fog of war in game? There are still a few out there that are visible.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Here's an interesting idea - with abilities like Shunpo/Safeguard, the new Talon E, and the reworked Cassiopeia (who cannot buy any boots)... Do you think we will see Riot release a champion that CANNOT choose flash as a summoner spell?

Frankly? No. I don't think champions directly interacting with Summoner Spells is a particularly interesting design space, so I'm not sure what benefit you'd get out of it -- at the cost of breaking an established distinction, limiting player choice, and just not being super apparent in the first place.

I think I'd revise or remove Flash as a spell before I expressly banned someone from taking it, basically.

[Siosilvar]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

...how long has it been since you played with me? We should fix that if you think her other abilities are bad. I think my ridiculous objective steals alone are probably still a part of Mumble's collective memory, though I'm not sure if I've done any E tricks while people were watching.

E is actually just really bad at disengage and is far more useful as a zoning tool or follow-up CC.

[Ashen Lilies]

or me, frankly.

the Jinx "walk-into-toplane-and-throw-E-behind-them" ganks are the deadliest ganks. :smalltongue:

[Ionbound]

The answer to both of you is a really long time. I did kinda quit League for a while and I don't think I've played with either of you since I came back.

[Siosilvar]

or me, frankly.

the Jinx "walk-into-toplane-and-throw-E-behind-them" ganks are the deadliest ganks. :smalltongue:

I'm more a fan of walking back and forth across the traps, forcing Udyr to run hopelessly in circles trying to avoid them. I might be a bad pers--- uhh, it's totally in character, you see! >.>

I don't know why people allow themselves to be zoned for 5 seconds by a 1.5 second snare, but whatever floats their boats I guess.

[Duck999]

I like that thing where you're fighting someone near a wall, so you throw the flame chompers over the wall. Silver and Bronze, 95% of people won't notice and flash right into them. Problems with this: Knowing if their flash is up, them being smart enough to use flash, them being smart enough not to use flash.

[Ashen Lilies]

Okay but as a Miss Fortune main, I just realized how much I want Edge of Night.

[shadow_archmagi]

Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.

I feel like she could have gone for an early Blade of the Ruined King (a fine item on what I assume was a top-lane brawling Shyvana). Also, she should just be able to win in 5-second or shorter fights. Acquired Taste is all well and good, but her E gives her 2.5% of YOUR maximum health in damage against you, which should be able to hurt pretty hard. If she had any lifesteal she'd probably have been able to play fine against you.

[Lethologica]

Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.
Sit in minions, push, WE-auto-Q if you wade in to trade. IDK how much you can poke her down, but it doesn't seem like a bad lane.

[Anarion]

...I'd argue her abilities are incredibly potent, actually, and that she has quite a few healthy levers to pull. :smalltongue:


I'm more a fan of walking back and forth across the traps, forcing Udyr to run hopelessly in circles trying to avoid them. I might be a bad pers--- uhh, it's totally in character, you see! >.>

I don't know why people allow themselves to be zoned for 5 seconds by a 1.5 second snare, but whatever floats their boats I guess.

I am with these two. Jinx E is one of her strongest abilities, placing it well during a teamfight can give you the opportunity to get out a number of safe attacks. Jinx W is also really strong, especially if you choose a build that has a bit more AD, it can chunk a quarter of a squishy target's health from long-range with no risk, and it can be used as a poor man's engage tool by hitting a target that pushes up too far and allowing your front line to jump them.

The answer to Sio's question, of course, is that they don't want to get pulled by the Blitzcrank that is always standing in the shadows directly behind you just waiting for the moment they stop moving. Yes, even if he's visible elsewhere on the map, he's still there. :smalltongue:

edit: Jinx W is like Nidalee spear, btw. You can't expect to hit it by firing directly at someone who's paying attention to you, it's easily dodged if the target isn't CCed. Instead, you use it to zone (if you back up, you're damaged and slowed, if you don't, my Alistar is going to be in range of you, time to choose), or you hit it by reading people's movements and forcing them into bad spots like up against a wall next to a tower, or when they have to stop to avoid missing CS.


Okay but as a Miss Fortune main, I just realized how much I want Edge of Night.

Is there any reason she wouldn't buy it? I'm not all that clear on how new lethality works, but MF specifically seems like she ought to still want it even after the changes.


Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.

One can argue about the effectiveness between melee champions dueling each other, but I think it misses the point. Shyvana runs fast, Kench does not. Her role isn't to be hitting you, unless it's as part of a 5-man dogpile that murders you instantly. If she's jungling, she ought to be running around to places where you're not and killing your jungler or stealing his stuff. If she's laning, she should be splitting and if you're not with your team because you're dealing with Shyv, her team gets the opportunity to pick off your squishies without you saving them. If it's a teamfight, she has the option to dive your backline in a way that you can't really match, so you have to go peel her instead while the enemy backline is safe.

Yes, if you're specifically laning toplane Kench against Shyv, then you may get strong enough to zone her from the wave, but again, if you're doing that instead of leaving to go help your own team, you'd better hope your teammates can win the 4v4 without their tank.

[lord_khaine]

I cant help but think they are introducing a little to many defences against CC and spells. I mean there are already QSS. How many other counters are needed?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I cant help but think they are introducing a little to many defences against CC and spells. I mean there are already QSS. How many other counters are needed?

Given that CC is incredibly strong, and itemizing into a defense it means sacrificing an item that may have better damage potential or more broadly useful survivability options? I don't see an issue with it personally. I'd be okay if we had a CC defense option in most item categories, frankly, provided it games at an appropriate cost in terms of power elsewhere.

[lord_khaine]

Given that CC is incredibly strong, and itemizing into a defense it means sacrificing an item that may have better damage potential or more broadly useful survivability options? I don't see an issue with it personally. I'd be okay if we had a CC defense option in most item categories, frankly, provided it games at an appropriate cost in terms of power elsewhere.

But are there not plenty of options for those things already? I mean, is the whole definition of an tradeoff not if you actually need to build a defensive item instead of more damage?
There are both QSS and Banshee's Veil that provides that effect, why do we need an item that gives something like that and a offensive stat as well?

[Anarion]

But are there not plenty of options for those things already? I mean, is the whole definition of an tradeoff not if you actually need to build a defensive item instead of more damage?
There are both QSS and Banshee's Veil that provides that effect, why do we need an item that gives something like that and a offensive stat as well?

QSS is an item with that defense that only builds into something useful for marksmen, it's pretty terrible for assassins much less classes that don't use damage. And banshees is fine, but is pure defense. The point of the new item isn't to give out multiple spellshields (I'd be extremely surprised if they even stacked), but to give a few more options for that spellshield so that it's available as a defense option for different types of characters without unfairly burdening some classes.

Also, to specifically ruin Karthus ult forever. Mostly that, actually.

[Ashen Lilies]

Is there any reason she wouldn't buy it? I'm not all that clear on how new lethality works, but MF specifically seems like she ought to still want it even after the changes.



No, no there isn't. I think you may have misread me a little - I'm positively stating how much I look forward to being able to build it. I want it.

The main difference between Lethality and Flat Pen is that Lethality doesn't provide as much as an early power spike as Flat Pen does, but scales better because you can get more of it*. The main losers in this transaction are marksmen like Twitch and Draven, who rushed Ghostblade in order to get a big spike and start snowballing. Not only is Ghostblade less of a spike, the fact that it doesn't give attack speed on the active anymore is especially painful for Twitch, since it means that his 1-item Ambush threat has been reduced significantly.

Jhin and Lucian are probably going to be a little more flexible in going towards crit builds rather than Lethality focused builds. Crit will give them more of a basic-attack and kiting-based focus, Lethality will give them more of a spell damage focus. I could probably see Lucian lean more heavily towards Essence Reaver because of the lack of the early spike from Ghostblade, while Jhin would be a little bit more down to preference and enemy team comp (is he getting in and trying to hit people, or is he largely standing back and using W and R to poke and catch people while his team does most of the lifting?).

Quinn, Varus, and Miss Fortune are probably the big winners in terms of building full Lethality. Quinn is basically just an assassin anyway, so Lethality will smooth out her power curve (less of a spike early, less snowball, better scaling late instead of falling off) the same way it's intended to do for champions like Zed and Talon. Miss Fortune and Varus will get the same effect. A problem I've always felt with Varus is that the need to get an early Tear somewhat puts him on the back foot when it comes to rushing his necessary pen items - the same reason Jayce has stopped building Tear almost entirely. Lethality is much less of a race to get items as fast as possible and means Varus will fall behind less, and his poke will be much better later into the game. I also think the switch of Maw from Pen to CDR might even be helpful for Varus, since it means you can take MR runes instead of CDR and still hit the cap with blue buff.

The reason I highlight Edge of Night in particular for Miss Fortune is because not only are the stats good for her, but it also gives her a spell shield. Miss Fortune. With a spell shield. I'll let you make the necessary connections here. :smalltongue:



*the specific math for how Lethality works is that you get 40% of the listed value against targets who are level 1, which scales up per enemy level to 100% of the listed value at level 18. Number values for Lethality are generally larger than the number values for Flat Pen were.

[Olinser]

No, no there isn't. I think you may have misread me a little - I'm positively stating how much I look forward to being able to build it. I want it.

The main difference between Lethality and Flat Pen is that Lethality doesn't provide as much as an early power spike as Flat Pen does, but scales better because you can get more of it*. The main losers in this transaction are marksmen like Twitch and Draven, who rushed Ghostblade in order to get a big spike and start snowballing. Not only is Ghostblade less of a spike, the fact that it doesn't give attack speed on the active anymore is especially painful for Twitch, since it means that his 1-item Ambush threat has been reduced significantly.

Jhin and Lucian are probably going to be a little more flexible in going towards crit builds rather than Lethality focused builds. Crit will give them more of a basic-attack and kiting-based focus, Lethality will give them more of a spell damage focus. I could probably see Lucian lean more heavily towards Essence Reaver because of the lack of the early spike from Ghostblade, while Jhin would be a little bit more down to preference and enemy team comp (is he getting in and trying to hit people, or is he largely standing back and using W and R to poke and catch people while his team does most of the lifting?).

Quinn, Varus, and Miss Fortune are probably the big winners in terms of building full Lethality. Quinn is basically just an assassin anyway, so Lethality will smooth out her power curve (less of a spike early, less snowball, better scaling late instead of falling off) the same way it's intended to do for champions like Zed and Talon. Miss Fortune and Varus will get the same effect. A problem I've always felt with Varus is that the need to get an early Tear somewhat puts him on the back foot when it comes to rushing his necessary pen items - the same reason Jayce has stopped building Tear almost entirely. Lethality is much less of a race to get items as fast as possible and means Varus will fall behind less, and his poke will be much better later into the game. I also think the switch of Maw from Pen to CDR might even be helpful for Varus, since it means you can take MR runes instead of CDR and still hit the cap with blue buff.

The reason I highlight Edge of Night in particular for Miss Fortune is because not only are the stats good for her, but it also gives her a spell shield. Miss Fortune. With a spell shield. I'll let you make the necessary connections here. :smalltongue:



*the specific math for how Lethality works is that you get 40% of the listed value against targets who are level 1, which scales up per enemy level to 100% of the listed value at level 18. Number values for Lethality are generally larger than the number values for Flat Pen were.

I dunno about Varus. This will definitely benefit him in late game, but its going to make his early game even rougher. Varus was mostly rushing Tear -> Dirk - > manamune/Youmuu (debatable which he finished first), so that early pen nerf is going to hurt him a lot, especially since the AP mid laner power spike is still going to be the same. Late game 6 item Varus arrows are going to absolutely SHRED squishies though, but he's going to have an even rougher time against AP laners now.

[Ashen Lilies]

The difference now is that in hard matchups he can rush tear -> hexdrinker and farm it out for his manamune and ghostblade, without sacrificing the 'window' during which early pen buys are strongest. It definitely swings his power more towards the mid-late game, and the hexdrinker rush will slow him down and cause his damage to suffer, but I don't think he'll necessarily be more vulnerable to bad matchups.

[Olinser]

The difference now is that in hard matchups he can rush tear -> hexdrinker and farm it out for his manamune and ghostblade, without sacrificing the 'window' during which early pen buys are strongest. It definitely swings his power more towards the mid-late game, but I don't think it'll cause him to be too vulnerable in the early game.

I mean that will make him safer in lane, but a tear-hexdrinker means his early game is going to be even weaker than it already was, I feel like he's just going to be giving up way too much to a competent AP mid laner before he really gets on line.

And of course with new Zed you just straight up can't pick Varus mid first.

[lord_khaine]

QSS is an item with that defense that only builds into something useful for marksmen, it's pretty terrible for assassins much less classes that don't use damage. And banshees is fine, but is pure defense. The point of the new item isn't to give out multiple spellshields (I'd be extremely surprised if they even stacked), but to give a few more options for that spellshield so that it's available as a defense option for different types of characters without unfairly burdening some classes.

Well yeah, that more means there is a problem with QSS building into something offensive, instead of something defensive that everyone can use.
Its not really a tradeoff when you can still get your favorite stat along with the defence.

[Ashen Lilies]

I mean that will make him safer in lane, but a tear-hexdrinker means his early game is going to be even weaker than it already was, I feel like he's just going to be giving up way too much to a competent AP mid laner before he really gets on line.

And of course with new Zed you just straight up can't pick Varus mid first.

I mean, Varus' current state is as a counterpick into mid-range control mages, not as a first pick, and I never made the claim that itemization changes would make his laning better or let him win more match-ups or make him first-pickable into every game, so I don't know how that's really relevant.

I said the itemization changes will make Varus scale more favorably, which is good for him because the necessity of Tear rush already puts him behind on the Flat Pen race.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well yeah, that more means there is a problem with QSS building into something offensive, instead of something defensive that everyone can use.
Its not really a tradeoff when you can still get your favorite stat along with the defence.

I'd argue it is, as you COULD get your favorite stat along with any of the the following instead:


More AD, increased Crit chance, bonus Crit damage.
More AD, more lifesteal, built-in shield.
More AD, CDR, and mana restoration.


The fact that we aren't seeing Mercurial Scimitar every game does imply to me that it's at least roughly balanced, and that there IS a tradeoff.

[Ashen Lilies]

Speaking of being a Miss Fortune main:

[NEW] UNIQUE Passive - Nightstalker: After being unseen for at least 1 second, your next basic attack will deal 50 + (200% Lethality) true damage on-hit.

[NEW] Fresh Blood (Ferocity, Tier 2) - [Pic]
"Your first basic attack against a champion deals an additional 10+ 1 per level damage (6 second cooldown)"

[NEW] Greenfather's Gift (Cunning, Tier 4)
"Stepping into brush causes your next damaging attack or ability to deal 3% of your target's current health as bonus magic damage (9s Cooldown)"

[love tapping intensifies]

[Olinser]

I mean, Varus' current state is as a counterpick into mid-range control mages, not as a first pick, and I never made the claim that itemization changes would make his laning better or let him win more match-ups or make him first-pickable into every game, so I don't know how that's really relevant.

I said the itemization changes will make Varus scale more favorably, which is good for him because the necessity of Tear rush already puts him behind on the Flat Pen race.

It's relevant because he's already weak early game, and now he's going to be even WEAKER in matchups he was picked into. Sure, his scaling is more favorable, but now he's going to take even longer to come on-line, and with the state of the game that means he's probably going to be even less useful than he is now. Scaling only helps if you have time to scale, and he's going to need even more time now. His final build is going to be better, but that still requires him to get there first.

[lord_khaine]

The fact that we aren't seeing Mercurial Scimitar every game does imply to me that it's at least roughly balanced, and that there IS a tradeoff.

Is that then not an argument for that we dont need any further CC defence items?

[Vogie]

I mean that will make him safer in lane, but a tear-hexdrinker means his early game is going to be even weaker than it already was, I feel like he's just going to be giving up way too much to a competent AP mid laner before he really gets on line.

And of course with new Zed you just straight up can't pick Varus mid first.

That's the main issue with Varus currently... however, I could totally see Riot adjust a couple numbers and make Varus an AP (or Hybrid) Marksman. Then he could be a halfway-decent counter to Zed, as there wouldn't be much AD to steal, and rushing Seekers into Hourglass (Didn't someone do that during the LCS as item 6 instead of GA anyway?)

I never played much Varus, but as he stands now, I wonder if rushing Essence Reaver or Hextech GLP would be better-suited than Tear...

[Qwertystop]

Is that then not an argument for that we dont need any further CC defence items?

Not really. Before there was Scimitar we still had both BV and QSS - one passive and one active firm of CC-cancelling. Then they added Scimitar, for another active one. It didn't really shift things all that much, as far as I'm aware - most of the characters that would like it still prefer to spend the gold on pure offense. Now we get EoN. Will anyone buy it? Open question, but the form of the ability will be much less of a hair-trigger, which should help.

[thracian]

I never played much Varus, but as he stands now, I wonder if rushing Essence Reaver or Hextech GLP would be better-suited than Tear...

Essence Reaver is alright if you're playing marksman Varus rather than AD Caster Varus. On AD Caster Varus it delays core damage spikes way further than Tear does, and you don't tend to build crit until very late if ever.

GLP on Varus is not a thing.

[Eldariel]

So I just received an invitation from Riot to participate in Ragnarök, Nordic Championships and Challenger Series Qualifiers. "As one of the top Nordic players..." The perplexing part for me is that I haven't played a single Ranked game since 2016 and last time I don't think I bothered to climb above D5. Did just every Diamond+ Nordic get an invite or something?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So I just received an invitation from Riot to participate in Ragnarök, Nordic Championships and Challenger Series Qualifiers. "As one of the top Nordic players..." The perplexing part for me is that I haven't played a single Ranked game since 2016 and last time I don't think I bothered to climb above D5. Did just every Diamond+ Nordic get an invite or something?

Honestly? I wouldn't be TOO surprised if that is the case. I'm not sure how big the Diamond+ player pool is in the Nordic server region. *shrug*

[shadow_archmagi]

Ah, yes, Bork, the item Tahm always prays you forgot about.

Had a delightful moment in ARAM today where I was Zilean, and after missing a bomb throw, managed to cast speedup, attach it to myself, and close the distance enough to flash between two retreating enemies for a double kill.

[lord_khaine]

So I just received an invitation from Riot to participate in Ragnarök, Nordic Championships and Challenger Series Qualifiers. "As one of the top Nordic players..." The perplexing part for me is that I haven't played a single Ranked game since 2016 and last time I don't think I bothered to climb above D5. Did just every Diamond+ Nordic get an invite or something?

It might be rather small? i do know that a very large percentage of the nordic players i know migrated to west as soon as the opportunity arose.

[Olinser]

All right, Semifinals today!!

I kind of feel like whoever wins today is going to take it all. But it still should be a good game.

Side note - they have the twitter voting with the #Xwin - is there actually any place that you can view pick em stats for what % of people chose what team to win before the game? I mean you can pull up anybody's bracket individually but is there any aggregate of everybody's picks?

[Olinser]

So I just received an invitation from Riot to participate in Ragnarök, Nordic Championships and Challenger Series Qualifiers. "As one of the top Nordic players..." The perplexing part for me is that I haven't played a single Ranked game since 2016 and last time I don't think I bothered to climb above D5. Did just every Diamond+ Nordic get an invite or something?

Did you mean haven't played since 2015? It's still 2016.

Most likely they did some kind of formula that pulled players based on their performance over the last 2-3 seasons, to make sure they scooped up any players that may have switched main accounts since being in Challenger/High diamond in a previous season.

[lord_khaine]

All right, Semifinals today!!

I kind of feel like whoever wins today is going to take it all. But it still should be a good game.

Yeah, the gameplay here is just a level above anything else we have seen so far.

[Olinser]

Really low kill game, SKT just had better map rotations and pressure. Then at the end ROX just hesitated WAY too long on the dragon, then committed to a fight after it went over to SKT.

3 infernal dragons and ROX still couldn't win late, this doesn't bode well for them in this series.

[Olinser]

Really low kill game, SKT just had better map rotations and pressure. Then at the end ROX just hesitated WAY too long on the dragon, then committed to a fight after it went over to SKT.

3 infernal dragons and ROX still couldn't win late, this doesn't bode well for them in this series.


Wait what the ****!??!?!?! Support Miss Fortune?!?!?!?!?!

I mean she does have good harass with her passive and at 6 the double ult is probably a kill, but I seriously question this late game.

Maybe he's just going to build a black cleaver and AOE shred?


Whoops that was supposed to be an edit not a post. Eh, whatever.

[thracian]

wut. whitetext

[Madara]

Wait what the ****!??!?!?! Support Miss Fortune?!?!?!?!?!

I mean she does have good harass with her passive and at 6 the double ult is probably a kill, but I seriously question this late game.

Maybe he's just going to build a black cleaver and AOE shred?


Whoops that was supposed to be an edit not a post. Eh, whatever.

Every one of my "off-meta" support champs suddenly became acceptable when this is the standard. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

It might be rather small? i do know that a very large percentage of the nordic players i know migrated to west as soon as the opportunity arose.

Ah, I'm on EUW. Apparently they sent it to people from both servers.


Did you mean haven't played since 2015? It's still 2016.

Most likely they did some kind of formula that pulled players based on their performance over the last 2-3 seasons, to make sure they scooped up any players that may have switched main accounts since being in Challenger/High diamond in a previous season.

I suppose that makes sense. I'm still perplexed that someone who's D1 is like two years back is getting these invites. Well, whatever, I suppose they just want to ensure nobody potentially interested gets left out. Hell, if this were some years back I'd jump at the opportunity.


Well, holy ****. MF support punishes micro mispositioning real hard it turns out. That game was brilliant by ROX. I honestly feel they should've been able to win G1 too if they didn't give that free catch for no reason; at this point I'm expecting ROX to win. I think they're showing smarter play and that tends to be the thing in Bo5s.

[Olinser]

All right SKT comes back.

I feel like ROX pulled those 2 wins not really because Fortune is such a great support, but because it threw SKT off their rhythm and they couldn't adapt.

Then games 4 and 5 were basically standard league games, and SKT got back in their comfort zone of 'normal' and just outplayed ROX.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Hey, Djinn, I think I just played against you in ranked. It's fun and a little surprising seeing somebody you recognize, when it's mostly just faceless pubs.

[Ivellius]

Hey, Djinn, I think I just played against you in ranked. It's fun and a little surprising seeing somebody you recognize, when it's mostly just faceless pubs.

I matched against my brother once, though it was in normals. It was really funny that it took him until ~10 minutes in to realize it was me swooping out of the jungle into his lane.

(My team may have gotten crushed thanks to the mid lane LeBlanc roaming well, but oh well.)

[Qwertystop]

Only time I recall anything like that happening was when ten Mumblers went into matchmade Draft Dominions.

[Duck999]

Okay. I didn't wathc the games, but I'm confused. How the hell did MF support happen, and how was it good enough to draw a ban and win two games? And who thought of that? I need inside knowledge!

[Epinephrine_Syn]

I matched against my brother once, though it was in normals. It was really funny that it took him until ~10 minutes in to realize it was me swooping out of the jungle into his lane.

(My team may have gotten crushed thanks to the mid lane LeBlanc roaming well, but oh well.)

Yeah, I didn't recognize him even though the name was pretty blatant until about 30 minutes into the game. Also my IGN changed, and not even sure he knows me much/at all.

It was a cool moment, though, and I feel guilty about that fb gank on him now. His split pushing was good though.

[Olinser]

Only time I recall anything like that happening was when ten Mumblers went into matchmade Draft Dominions.

Zach, Paulson and I got sniped once by another GITP team in ranked 3s. I think it was efdf's team, if I recall correctly.

[Lethologica]

Okay. I didn't wathc the games, but I'm confused. How the hell did MF support happen, and how was it good enough to draw a ban and win two games? And who thought of that? I need inside knowledge!
Turns out when Ashe can lay down multi-second stuns and MF can lay down an ultimate, you can snipe Zyra a lot.

[Olinser]

Okay. I didn't wathc the games, but I'm confused. How the hell did MF support happen, and how was it good enough to draw a ban and win two games? And who thought of that? I need inside knowledge!

Well like I said, I think the value is not that its that great of a pick on its own. MF + Ashe is definitely a good combo but it requires very high coordination.

It was much more that it just completely changed the dynamic of bot lane and the game. SKT were plainly off their game with the MF in the game.

When they went back to 'normal' league in games 4 and 5, SKT was back in their comfort zone and just outplayed ROX.

[Ashen Lilies]

ROX Gorilla is literally my hero.

(soloqueue better prepare itself for my incoming dominance)

[Nadevoc]

Really low kill game, SKT just had better map rotations and pressure. Then at the end ROX just hesitated WAY too long on the dragon, then committed to a fight after it went over to SKT.

3 infernal dragons and ROX still couldn't win late, this doesn't bode well for them in this series.


I feel like saying '3 infernal and Tigers couldn't win late' is being a bit disingenuous. They didn't really get to true late game, so the massive SKT gold lead really cancelled out the dragon difference. The early baron where SKT wiped all the non-base turrets off the map was pretty huge, too. It IS a bit disappointing that the Tigers didn't manage to do much with the baron they snuck, but I feel like this game just came down to SKT being really smart at map play. Which isn't a huge surprise, because it's SKT.

--GAME 2--
This is my favorite game this Worlds so far. Support MF, diving super deep (and then making ridiculous teamwork plays to run back through the tower), lots of violence all around. Faker was a really strong stabilizing force in the earlier parts of the game, but that end by the Tigers was beautiful. This really felt like a game of the Tigers being Tigers - just having fun, playing aggressive, and making things happen. Always fun to watch.

--GAME 3--
This game really showed me how much faith I have in SKT - Tigers had a significant lead, but it still felt pretty even to me - throughout so much of the game, I felt it could go either way really easily, and there were some really fun team fights.

--GAME 4--
I like the Tigers' choice to leave Nid open against Bengi - seems like a smart use of Bengi's relatively small (and non-mechanics-focused) champ pool. And given that Peanut is Peanut, SKT can't really afford to leave it up, so they basically force SKT's first pick is basically decided for them. And that's on top of making SKT banning *support Miss Fortune*, and then their start is really smart against Nidalee? Tigers' coaching really set them up well.

Bengi's Nid really shows who Bengi is a jungler. It feels very different from most Nids - less focused on farming and making big plays, just running around and controlling the game.

Really smart play around baron by SKT to break the bot inhib (and basically win the game)

--GAME 5--
Peanut outsmarting Bengi early game is huge. Bengi's always been about playing smart and being at the right place at the right time, but for the first 5 minutes Peanut reverse-Bengi'd him, seeming to always know where Bengi planned to go and be there waiting.

In the end, though, it feels like SKT just handled the pressure of playing for five back to back games better. Which isn't really surprising - SKT's discipline has always been one of their strengths.

--FINAL THOUGHTS--
I'm gonna go ahead and call SKT as winning the tournament, and I'm sure I'm not alone there. After the incredible play we saw from both teams in this BO5, I just don't see SSG or H2K coming out ahead.

I also really wish that SKT could seem as cohesive with Blank as they do with Bengi. I'm an old-school SKT fanboy who loves Bengi, but I've felt like Bengi's been kind of wanting to retire for a while now, but feels he can't until his team has a suitable replacement.

It's a shame that the Tigers have never managed to quite find real success - they're a great team with a very fun, dynamic line up. But as much as I love them, my SKT fanboyism wins out, so I'm okay with it.


Is there anywhere that we can find the runes and masteries that were used in Worlds? I'm curious to see them, particularly for some of the pocket picks we've seen.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hey, Djinn, I think I just played against you in ranked. It's fun and a little surprising seeing somebody you recognize, when it's mostly just faceless pubs.

Not to burst your bubble, but...I'm away from my computer this weekend and haven't played more than two ranked games all season. :P

[Dienekes]

I matched against my brother once, though it was in normals. It was really funny that it took him until ~10 minutes in to realize it was me swooping out of the jungle into his lane.

(My team may have gotten crushed thanks to the mid lane LeBlanc roaming well, but oh well.)

One of the best games I ever played was when I was playing with a few friends and then a few more of their friends showed up. In any case we were left with 7 players, so we decided to just split off into a team of 3 and 4, and somehow we ended up matching against each other. We do not know how improbable that was. Has never happened again.

And as icing on the cake, my team won.

[PhantomFox]

Son of a cuss
My only hope at winning the Pickem was for ROX to win it all. Oh well, maybe next year.

[Siosilvar]

Only time I recall anything like that happening was when ten Mumblers went into matchmade Draft Dominions.

That was amusing since we all queued up in random sized groups. I think one of the groups actually got matched with the only five non-Mumblers in the queue for one of the games.

As for the original... might it have been Farix, another forumer & mumbler whose league name is Jiin in Tin?

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Not to burst your bubble, but...I'm away from my computer this weekend and haven't played more than two ranked games all season. :P

Eh, it's fine if not. I just saw somebody named Jin In Tonic in ranked, figured it was you, and made a comment about it. Was more a nice moment than anything. I haven't actually gotten in with the gitp group for much league (though I probably should).

[mrcarter11]

Just got around to reading 6.21 notes, had been hoping for some minor cho buffs after the w nerfs. No dice. Perhaps in preseason.

[Olinser]

All right, final day of the semifinals!!

Yesterday was some really good games. I hope H2K can at least put up a fight against SSG, but regardless of who wins I just feel like neither of them has any hope of winning finals.

[Duck999]

Game hasn't even started yet and I have comments. First of all, Jatt:
"H2Korean teams in finals."
Also, that TSM chant. I guess it won't go away as long as they are in NA.

[mrcarter11]

Well return of the mf was both almost expected once zyra got locked in. I feel viktor lanes pretty well against cass so I'm not sure if I'm wrong or if I just don't see something. On the other hand, SSG has really low peel and no way to deal with kenned in a 5v5.. I like the SSG comp but a good kennen ult will win h3k the game.


THAT FIRST BLOOD! Well this series is off to a good start.

[Olinser]

Just confirms what I was thinking. H2K has an absolutely massive kill lead - 12-5 at one point - and yet they never really had a gold advantage. In fact they were DOWN in gold a lot of the game because Crown was absolutely shrecking Ryu in CS and SSG just had better map rotations.

I think this is going to be 3-0 for SSG.

[Eldariel]

Just confirms what I was thinking. H2K has an absolutely massive kill lead - 12-5 at one point - and yet they never really had a gold advantage. In fact they were DOWN in gold a lot of the game because Crown was absolutely shrecking Ryu in CS and SSG just had better map rotations.

I think this is going to be 3-0 for SSG.

Perhaps. Then again, SSG comeback came from Ryu's absolutely bizarre movements in the middle. First he was in the bush between jungler and Viktor and then instead of Flashing over the wall when he got pincered, he tried to make a run for his team or something. This cost him two deaths and snowballed the midlane. If not for that, the H2K botlane snowball could've taken the game. I'm thinking it's gonna be 3-2 for SSG.

EDIT: Nevermind. Ryu is doing it again. If he keeps playing like this, it's gonna be an 0-3.

[mrcarter11]

The score was close throughout, but the gold lead was just always there.

[Olinser]

The score was close throughout, but the gold lead was just always there.

Yeah. Like I said for game 1, SSG just has better map movements and objective control. H2K can hang with them in teamfights initially, but eventually SSG just runs away with the game due to objectives.

Time to see if H2K has any crazy off picks to try and take at least 1 game. If they keep playing this style of game they have no chance.


Called it. 3-0 SSG.

Dunno if SSG has any chance against SKT. I mean they beat H2K by playing the map better but SKT excels at that.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

This is another year where the semis are gonna have been more interesting than the grand final, isn't it?

[lord_khaine]

I do think that the Rok vs STK game is going to be the most exiting one we got this year. And honestly at this point i lost interest in worlds myself now. Just waiting for regular seasons to resume now.

[Anarion]

This is another year where the semis are gonna have been more interesting than the grand final, isn't it?

Probably. SKT v. Rox consistently produce the world's highest quality games whenever they play. Still
There's a chance that SSG actually puts something together strategically vs. SKT and they get to some really exciting lategame maneuvering where both teams really shine.

[Ashen Lilies]

Random thought: is there any value in Riot reworking flat Magic Pen into a stat similar to Lethality? Sorcery? Sorcerousness?

more random thoughts of questionable correctness and relevancy:


flat magic pen stacking isn't really a thing compared to flat armor pen stacking (since haunting guise's price nerf - sorc shoes + haunting guise spike was commonly abused when haunting guise was cheaper)
then again, only two flat magic pen items actually exist: sorcerers shoes and haunting guise/liandry's torment - both sorc shoes and guise have been repeatedly nerfed in addition.
haunting guise feels terrible to buy since the price nerf. the price point is comparatively awkward compared to other similar purchases (1600 for guise - much later compared to ~1200 for NLR, chapter/codex + amp tome, or hexcore), and while technically gold efficient, the stat spread is too diluted to feel useful. the only reason people get it is to build into liandry's ASAP
the main reason people get liandry's is to synergize with the passive using DoT's (Rumble, Teemo, Brand, Malzahar), not necessarily for the pen (though it's certainly nice to have) - main exceptions are damage!Elise due to low ratios and ridiculous pen scaling on her Q, and mage supports (Zyra, Vel'koz) because pen is the best form of damage scaling available on a support budget.
liandry's has a rather confused stat profile anyway - flat pen is more effective against squishies, unique passive implies tank shredding - possibility for a rework similar to flat armor pen getting cut from black cleaver?
flat pen right now is essentially hard-countered by aegis - one aegis on the entire team negates the entirety of your sorc shoes purchase. aegis aura getting removed next season makes flat pen comparatively more valuable/viable?
reworking flat magic pen could open up more space for more magic pen items or making items like haunting guise less expensive and terrible-feeling to buy
however, magic resist numbers are generally smaller than armor numbers. ranged champions don't get scaling magic resist at all.
muddled mr vs armor itemization for tanks and squishies complicates the issue? tanks tend to build 1-2 mr items and 3-4 armor items. comparatively, the mr choices for squishies (abyssal, hexdrinker, mercurial scimitar, edge of night) are more plentiful and attractive than corresponding armor items (zhonya's, ???, ga?)

[Vogie]

Random thought: is there any value in Riot reworking flat Magic Pen into a stat similar to Lethality? Sorcery? Sorcerousness?

more random thoughts of questionable correctness and relevancy:


flat magic pen stacking isn't really a thing compared to flat armor pen stacking (since haunting guise's price nerf - sorc shoes + haunting guise spike was commonly abused when haunting guise was cheaper)
then again, only two flat magic pen items actually exist: sorcerers shoes and haunting guise/liandry's torment - both sorc shoes and guise have been repeatedly nerfed in addition.
haunting guise feels terrible to buy since the price nerf. the price point is comparatively awkward compared to other similar purchases (1600 for guise - much later compared to ~1200 for NLR, chapter/codex + amp tome, or hexcore), and while technically gold efficient, the stat spread is too diluted to feel useful. the only reason people get it is to build into liandry's ASAP
the main reason people get liandry's is to synergize with the passive using DoT's (Rumble, Teemo, Brand, Malzahar), not necessarily for the pen (though it's certainly nice to have) - main exceptions are damage!Elise due to low ratios and ridiculous pen scaling on her Q, and mage supports (Zyra, Vel'koz) because pen is the best form of damage scaling available on a support budget.
liandry's has a rather confused stat profile anyway - flat pen is more effective against squishies, unique passive implies tank shredding - possibility for a rework similar to flat armor pen getting cut from black cleaver?
flat pen right now is essentially hard-countered by aegis - one aegis on the entire team negates the entirety of your sorc shoes purchase. aegis aura getting removed next season makes flat pen comparatively more valuable/viable?
reworking flat magic pen could open up more space for more magic pen items or making items like haunting guise less expensive and terrible-feeling to buy
however, magic resist numbers are generally smaller than armor numbers. ranged champions don't get scaling magic resist at all.
muddled mr vs armor itemization for tanks and squishies complicates the issue? tanks tend to build 1-2 mr items and 3-4 armor items. comparatively, the mr choices for squishies (abyssal, hexdrinker, mercurial scimitar, edge of night) are more plentiful and attractive than corresponding armor items (zhonya's, ???, ga?)


I agree there should be some revamp. Choosing any boots other than Sorcs is a major damage loss. At the same time, I know that the assassins, Darius, Jhin & co would absolutely love to have leathality boots as an option, so the lack of that option indicates that Riot balances them differently. Even if they make it a unique passive so you can't double-dip between Sorc Boots and NewMagPenItem, that'd be fine.

We also need at least one other AP + Armor item - we used to have Iceborn Guantlet, but then they took the Amp Tome out of the Sheen.

As a Malz Enthusiast, I'm still not a fan of QSS & it's ilk still being a hard-counter. And then they nerfed it additionally by reducing its effectiveness against Zed, Trundle, Fiora, and the like.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I agree there should be some revamp. Choosing any boots other than Sorcs is a major damage loss. At the same time, I know that the assassins, Darius, Jhin & co would absolutely love to have leathality boots as an option, so the lack of that option indicates that Riot balances them differently. Even if they make it a unique passive so you can't double-dip between Sorc Boots and NewMagPenItem, that'd be fine.

Personally I'm not a fan of offensive boots in general: I think it would be more interesting if boots were almost primarily defensive/utility based. Sure, that may cut a little into offensive power, but you could add that back in by either slightly buffing ALL offensive items or, to stop early game power spikes, bake scaling power into several items kind of like Essence Reaver has now: something that will eventually make back the power that Beserker's Greaves or Sorc Shoes give now over the course of 2-3 major item purchases. I know that, as someone who often plays Marksmen, I'd love to feel like I'm not sacrificing a sizable DPS output from Zerker's if I want to go Swiftness or Mobility or something.


We also need at least one other AP + Armor item - we used to have Iceborn Guantlet, but then they took the Amp Tome out of the Sheen.

Not sure on this one, just from the point of how versatile and powerful Zhonya's can be in the right circumstances. I'm not sure "Tanky AP" is actually a big enough niche that we need more itemization for that specific subsection that buying Zhonya's or buying an AP item and another Armor item can't provide. Of course, that's also slightly related by my problem with AP Bruisers as a whole, but that's another story.

[Ivellius]

Random thought: is there any value in Riot reworking flat Magic Pen into a stat similar to Lethality? Sorcery? Sorcerousness?

I think this is the kind of thing that should've been considered in the Mage update (maybe it was!), and for all the reasons you've listed I'm not sure it's worth much. There aren't really enough items that use it, and there probably aren't enough competing roles that prioritize flat v. percentage penetration differently (unlike, say, ADCs v. Assassins). But you had a lot of depth to that brainstorming.


As a Malz Enthusiast, I'm still not a fan of QSS & it's ilk still being a hard-counter. And then they nerfed it additionally by reducing its effectiveness against Zed, Trundle, Fiora, and the like.

I would argue that, given how strong suppression is, I'm glad there is a kind of hard counter to it. You could balance the suppression champions around it a little more closely, but you'd have to strip power from other places.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm more curious to see what people think of the new jungle plants. I kinda feel like the scouting plant will be bad for pro play, because it means less tricks with death bushes, and makes securing vision even harder, but better for low level play because it's easier to ward safer when you are the squishy support and basically the only vision granter on your team.

The bomb plant looks interesting, I'm not sure what to think on that.

The HP plant I'm ambivalent towards. HP is the most common and abundant resource, and I don't think adding more will be that big of a difference.

[Vogie]

I would argue that, given how strong suppression is, I'm glad there is a kind of hard counter to it. You could balance the suppression champions around it a little more closely, but you'd have to strip power from other places.

While I completely agree about the power of suppression, it's also the only CC a Malz has, which also suppresses his damage in that it's a MR item, which doesn't do much against Skarner, Warwick or Urgot.

I'd be fine if they tied the QSS effect to a boot enchant, so the enemy has a Choice between Swifties (reduces slows), Mercs (reduces duration of Hard CC other than Supression/Airborne), and Quicksilver (removes suppression). That makes sense.

[Ivellius]

I'm more curious to see what people think of the new jungle plants.

With the removal of the chicken buff and the general chipping away of vision options, having a plant that eases this issue is useful. The bomb plants are fine, I guess? In some ways they make low-mobility junglers easier, but high-mobility benefit, too. Honeyfruit is also fine, I guess. I think seeing how all of the changes interact will be necessary--jungle this season has been really rough when you get behind.


While I completely agree about the power of suppression, it's also the only CC a Malz has, which also suppresses his damage in that it's a MR item, which doesn't do much against Skarner, Warwick or Urgot.

I'd be fine if they tied the QSS effect to a boot enchant, so the enemy has a Choice between Swifties (reduces slows), Mercs (reduces duration of Hard CC other than Supression/Airborne), and Quicksilver (removes suppression). That makes sense.

A) He has a silence, B) Skarner and Warwick have a decent amount of magic damage, and C) this is more an argument for reworking Malzahar than for changing Quicksilver. I definitely understand the frustration (I have Mastery 6 on Warwick), but suppression is really powerful and probably shouldn't be in the game if there's no way to counter it.

[Olinser]

All right guys, finals today!!

Not a lot of people are picking SSG to win. I personally am just hoping for some good games - SSG hasn't been particularly hard pressed yet, they could easily have some pocket picks or strats that they are going to bring out against SKT.

No real big shocks here, although I'm a bit surprised that Faker locked in Orianna with Viktor still available.

We'll have to see how this goes, but I definitely feel like playing a 'normal' game like this heavily favors SKT.

[Duck999]

So happy that this is so even. Hopefully this means a finals better than semis.

THAT END! That was a pretty sweet game. I hope the rest are like that.

[mrcarter11]

Typical SKT game 1. Give the enemy team everything they want, then beat them. It was a long game and probably shouldn't have been, but I feel SKT played well against some incredible SSG waveclear.

[Olinser]

SKT was in control almost the entire game, and even though they made a couple of major misplays that let SSG come back, they had just taken too much at that point.

Normal games definitely favor SKT. SSG needs to change the dynamic of the game if they want to have a chance of winning this.

All right SSG definitely trying to alter the game by bringing out the Kindred, but they just had a series of bad fights just not respecting the Ryze mobility, and that put them way too far behind. But SSG showed they had at least one trick up their sleeves - wonder if they have another one in the tank.

Wow it looked like SKT was just going to steamroll that at the start. Crown was just flailing around on Aurelion Sol, Ruler was tilted as hell and just getting manhandled.

But they were able to stall that out for just so long and take FOUR dragons. SKT took 2 Elders and SSG basically ignored them because they had no power behind them.

THEN THAT AMBITION STEAL LOL

SSG needs to not pick the Sol again though. Crown just did not look comfortable on him.

That is a game that just happened. Crown is back on Viktor and in fine form, CuVee just laying WASTE with that Kennan. Despite Ambition's best efforts to throw the game, they pulled it out.

But damn CuVee carried that so hard.

So SKT finally realized they're supposed to actually win this.

This was a great series though, it may have been the closest best of 5 I saw.

[Manticoran]

SKT was in control almost the entire game, and even though they made a couple of major misplays that let SSG come back, they had just taken too much at that point.

Normal games definitely favor SKT. SSG needs to change the dynamic of the game if they want to have a chance of winning this.

All right SSG definitely trying to alter the game by bringing out the Kindred, but they just had a series of bad fights just not respecting the Ryze mobility, and that put them way too far behind. But SSG showed they had at least one trick up their sleeves - wonder if they have another one in the tank.

Wow it looked like SKT was just going to steamroll that at the start. Crown was just flailing around on Aurelion Sol, Ruler was tilted as hell and just getting manhandled.

But they were able to stall that out for just so long and take FOUR dragons. SKT took 2 Elders and SSG basically ignored them because they had no power behind them.

THEN THAT AMBITION STEAL LOL

SSG needs to not pick the Sol again though. Crown just did not look comfortable on him.

That is a game that just happened. Crown is back on Viktor and in fine form, CuVee just laying WASTE with that Kennan. Despite Ambition's best efforts to throw the game, they pulled it out.

But damn CuVee carried that so hard.

So SKT finally realized they're supposed to actually win this.

This was a great series though, it may have been the closest best of 5 I saw.

Dude please. Information like how many games it goes to in your spoiler text is STILL A SPOILER.

[mrcarter11]

I laughed that even in using spoiler tags, he still manages to spoil the series for people.

Good series overall. SKT looked to steamroll SSG like they do every team. The 30 min baron fight in G3 seemed to just throw SKT off their game. They played awkwardly for the rest of G3 and mot of G4. Pretty disappointing that they got so tiled from a bad fight/game. Game 5 felt close until it wasn't.

Also in terms of close BO5, I think the closest I know is SKT vs CJ LCK 2015 Spring Semifinals.

[Duck999]

Was that the longest BO5? Plenty of those games reached close to an hour. Has a BO5 series ever taken that total amount of time before? It was way more impressive that I was worried it would be.

[Neftren]

I don't post much anymore, but I thought some of you might appreciate some photographs for scale. Reina probably has photos from a better angle though?

*Warning - Large!


http://i.imgur.com/hpbpQgh.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/fihS5N0.jpg

[Artanis]

I laughed that even in using spoiler tags, he still manages to spoil the series for people.
Pretty much, yeah. I was really looking forward to getting a chance to watch it later, too, but now...*shrug* :smallfrown:

[Ivellius]

Dude please. Information like how many games it goes to in your spoiler text is STILL A SPOILER.

Not necessarily.

As someone who watched SKT T1 go up 2-0 and gain a lead in Game 3, I just assumed they'd won Game 3 and the 4 and 5 were there to prevent potential spoilers (and thus would have no content when I opened them).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Not necessarily.

As someone who watched SKT T1 go up 2-0 and gain a lead in Game 3, I just assumed they'd won Game 3 and the 4 and 5 were there to prevent potential spoilers (and thus would have no content when I opened them).

That seems like FAR too much trouble and effort. MUCH easier to simply put a single spoiler around everything spoiler-related. Like...it's actually EASIEST to do that. One spoiler. All content. Boom. Done.

[mrcarter11]

While we are on the subject of the spoiler tags, I typically try to leave out which teams are playing in the tag itself and instead just mark it as finals or semi finals day 2, what have you. Would everyone prefer that, just to help out those who might be behind in watching a tournament and not know which teams won their groups?


I don't post much anymore, but I thought some of you might appreciate some photographs for scale. Reina probably has photos from a better angle though?

*Warning - Large!


http://i.imgur.com/hpbpQgh.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/fihS5N0.jpg



Since you were there, honest question, do you feel the set up was good? I've talked to a few others that were there and most said they were frustrated by the the way the booth cam things were set up and that the center piece seemed pretty blah after the first 10 minutes or so.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

While we are on the subject of the spoiler tags, I typically try to leave out which teams are playing in the tag itself and instead just mark it as finals or semi finals day 2, what have you. Would everyone prefer that, just to help out those who might be behind in watching a tournament and not know which teams won their groups?

Absolutely, yes. As few details as possible is good, in my opinion. Speaking as someone who only occasionally has the time/inclination to watch competitive, and so is often a few days behind.

You want to put separate, team-specific spoilers in there? Great. But hide the whole thing behind a big generic Spoiler, please.

[Olinser]

Absolutely, yes. As few details as possible is good, in my opinion. Speaking as someone who only occasionally has the time/inclination to watch competitive, and so is often a few days behind.

You want to put separate, team-specific spoilers in there? Great. But hide the whole thing behind a big generic Spoiler, please.

Last time I did that somebody whined about the fact that I didn't mark individual games inside the spoiler. Which was the exact reason I put 5 game tags in there, somebody asked that I do it because that's what Riot does, and I thought it was reasonable. Games they didn't play would have been empty.

Bitch at the people announcing without spoilers that they all had information.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Bitch at the people announcing without spoilers that they all had information.

...I wasn't bitching at anyone? Just responding to a question with my preferred method. Legitimately puzzled here.

[Ivellius]

...I wasn't bitching at anyone? Just responding to a question with my preferred method. Legitimately puzzled here.

But with repeated caps to indicate the depth of how foolish you think the employment of the chosen method was.

[Neftren]

Since you were there, honest question, do you feel the set up was good? I've talked to a few others that were there and most said they were frustrated by the the way the booth cam things were set up and that the center piece seemed pretty blah after the first 10 minutes or so.

I've only been to one other "gaming" sporting event (The International), so I'm not sure what to expect. As far as I can tell, everything was good. I didn't get to see the floor display though, given where I was seated behind SKT in the first few rows. The only major problem I noticed was how long it took to get people inside. There was a pretty long line to get into the stadium ten minutes before the show started.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

But with repeated caps to indicate the depth of how foolish you think the employment of the chosen method was.

Foolish, no. Puzzling because I hadn't seen the earlier post about just always putting five games up no matter the situation? Yes. Thats all. It just seemed like a ridiculous amount of extra work. *Shrug*

[Jama7301]

I need to yell at my friend more. He got me watching during the Group Stage, and the urge to reinstall League of Legends had overpowered my good sense. Played a practice game the day after it installed and was kinda surprised by how much things had changed since I had last played.

Once I get some days off work this week, I will be cracking down for the Finals though. They seemed like good times.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hey guys.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/SilverS6.png

:smallbiggrin:

[Recaiden]

Hey guys.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/SilverS6.png

:smallbiggrin:

Good work!

Now you can get to gold next season. :smalltongue:

[shadow_archmagi]

Wait, Jarvan IV is Silver V?

Why not... you know... IV?

[Forum Explorer]

So I just got utterly destroyed (http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2334436402/44999489?tab=overview)playing Diana in the jungle.

And thinking about it, I don't really know how to play Diana anymore. Like she feels like an Assassin, but she has no escapes, so she goes in and just sort of dies. And her burst isn't all that great. Her passive makes me think she'd do well as a sort of Fighter, but she so squishy that you have to go full tanky or else she just dies. And as a Mage, well she's melee so she can't play it safe like TF or Ahri can.

So how do you play her? Where do you play her? I can't really think of a match up that's actually in her favor, so when do you play her as well. I really do like her Fluff, kit, and design, but it doesn't do any good if I just lose all my games with her.

[Anarion]

So I just got utterly destroyed (http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2334436402/44999489?tab=overview)playing Diana in the jungle.

And thinking about it, I don't really know how to play Diana anymore. Like she feels like an Assassin, but she has no escapes, so she goes in and just sort of dies. And her burst isn't all that great. Her passive makes me think she'd do well as a sort of Fighter, but she so squishy that you have to go full tanky or else she just dies. And as a Mage, well she's melee so she can't play it safe like TF or Ahri can.

So how do you play her? Where do you play her? I can't really think of a match up that's actually in her favor, so when do you play her as well. I really do like her Fluff, kit, and design, but it doesn't do any good if I just lose all my games with her.

She's typically a mid who counters Aurelion Sol, but you can jungle her. You want runic echoes enchant and usually red smite, so you can charge a target, reduce their damage to you and put the true damage burn on them. She's not a strong duelist pre-6. You want to do an efficient jungle clear to level 6, ganking only for obvious opportunities (you have no gap close before 6, so you have to be able to just walk behind them). Once you hit 6, you can gank aggressively or try to countergank or chase down the other juggler in his jungle. Diana also gets super scary late game from any position, and can easily dive the opposing ADC if she can catch them.

[Vogie]

She's typically a mid who counters Aurelion Sol, but you can jungle her. You want runic echoes enchant and usually red smite, so you can charge a target, reduce their damage to you and put the true damage burn on them. She's not a strong duelist pre-6. You want to do an efficient jungle clear to level 6, ganking only for obvious opportunities (you have no gap close before 6, so you have to be able to just walk behind them). Once you hit 6, you can gank aggressively or try to countergank or chase down the other juggler in his jungle. Diana also gets super scary late game from any position, and can easily dive the opposing ADC if she can catch them.


TL,DR: She's AP Kha'Zix


Although, on a related note, I'm really excited about the new Kha'Zix. That R evolution is really scary.

[Anarion]

TL,DR: She's AP Kha'Zix


While sort of cute, that's not actually a good tldr for Diana. Kha gets his jump at level 3 and has enough built in damage to do some really scary early ganks if he's got a laner that can set him up, while Diana plays her 1-5 more like Amumu or Master Yi, if anything. Diana very often wants Zhonya's second, as well and she's got a shield that scales with her AP, so she's actually able to play a more tanky initiator role where she can sometimes jump onto a squishy target for burst, then Zhonya, and her team joins the fight, whereas Kha should almost never initiate a fight, as he'll just instantly die if he jumps in.



Although, on a related note, I'm really excited about the new Kha'Zix. That R evolution is really scary.

The auto stealth in bushes one? I think it's pretty cool, especially with the new duskblade. I'm partial to the Q though. Reduced Q cooldown gives you so much jungle control: super easy dragon and baron takes in particular, and insanely fast counterjungling.

[Vogie]

While sort of cute, that's not actually a good tldr for Diana. Kha gets his jump at level 3 and has enough built in damage to do some really scary early ganks if he's got a laner that can set him up, while Diana plays her 1-5 more like Amumu or Master Yi, if anything. Diana very often wants Zhonya's second, as well and she's got a shield that scales with her AP, so she's actually able to play a more tanky initiator role where she can sometimes jump onto a squishy target for burst, then Zhonya, and her team joins the fight, whereas Kha should almost never initiate a fight, as he'll just instantly die if he jumps in.

You're absolutely right. I really should've said Warwick... at the moment. I'm fairly certain he's up for a rework soon



The auto stealth in bushes one? I think it's pretty cool, especially with the new duskblade. I'm partial to the Q though. Reduced Q cooldown gives you so much jungle control: super easy dragon and baron takes in particular, and insanely fast counterjungling.

Exactly. They did well making those evolutions meaningful choices. The new Q evol works great with the Poacher's Dirk, which builds into ... everything he wants.

I'm kinda sad that they moved all the CC from W into the Evolution though.

[PhantomFox]

Quick question. I was thinking about Illaoi's Test of Spirit, and how it redirect's damage based on a percent. But it's possible to 'overkill' the spirit with the last hit, transferring more damage than otherwise. With my usual bruiser build, the percentage ends up being around 65% or so. So, which burst champs have the biggest single spell burst to overkill the spirit to deal the remaining 35% after transfer? If my math is right, it'd take a spell that normally does around 54%.

The idea is that you have your team around you, and you grab someone and your team beats the spirit down to sliver of HP, then your burst caster last-hits it with their biggest attack, turning Test of Spirit into a one-shot if your team can execute before the target gets out of range.

[Ashen Lilies]

I have no idea what you're talking about or what any of those numbers mean, but in terms of single target burst it's kind of hard to go wrong with Veigar's ultimate.

[Renegade Paladin]

Good work!

Now you can get to gold next season. :smalltongue:
That would require me to actually work at it. :smalltongue:

[Anarion]

I have no idea what you're talking about or what any of those numbers mean, but in terms of single target burst it's kind of hard to go wrong with Veigar's ultimate.

He wants someone to hit the Illaoi tentacle spirit so hard that it kills the actual champion with the damage transfer. And yes, Veigar is the way to go for 1 button doing precisely one tick of damage that is a very high number.

[Nadevoc]

You don't even need to blow Veigar's ult cooldown. The yoinked spirit isn't going to dodge, so it's super easy to hit with Dark Matter.

[Qwertystop]

You don't even need to blow Veigar's ult cooldown. The yoinked spirit isn't going to dodge, so it's super easy to hit with Dark Matter.

Yeah, but that doesn't hit as hard.

[Olinser]

In other news, Doublelift has announced he is taking a break from League, at least for LCS Spring 2017, but will be playing 'massive amounts of solo que'.

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/league-legends-tsm-doublelift-taking-break-lcs-maybe-retiring-566241

This sounds like he's working himself up to quitting completely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person that's come back to LCS play after taking a season or more break was Meteos.

Wonder who TSM is going to get to replace him. Maybe try and get Turtle back?

[Forum Explorer]

In other news, Doublelift has announced he is taking a break from League, at least for LCS Spring 2017, but will be playing 'massive amounts of solo que'.

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/league-legends-tsm-doublelift-taking-break-lcs-maybe-retiring-566241

This sounds like he's working himself up to quitting completely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person that's come back to LCS play after taking a season or more break was Meteos.

Wonder who TSM is going to get to replace him. Maybe try and get Turtle back?

Didn't FORGIVEN come back? But to a different team? There was something weird with him, cause it messed up my draft pick horribly.

[Vogie]

In other news, Doublelift has announced he is taking a break from League, at least for LCS Spring 2017, but will be playing 'massive amounts of solo que'.

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/league-legends-tsm-doublelift-taking-break-lcs-maybe-retiring-566241

This sounds like he's working himself up to quitting completely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person that's come back to LCS play after taking a season or more break was Meteos.

Wonder who TSM is going to get to replace him. Maybe try and get Turtle back?

I certainly hope so. I'd've picked WildTurtle over DL in the TSM lineup anyday.

[Ashen Lilies]

Didn't FORGIVEN come back? But to a different team? There was something weird with him, cause it messed up my draft pick horribly.

FORGIVEN came back to H2K for playoffs + Worlds because Freeze (their main starter) injured his wrist. I'm not 100% for what's happening with them and the team next season.

They totally screwed up my All Stars, though, since I wanted to pick Odoammne, FORGIVEN, and Ryu, and had to give up Ryu. Curse that silly "2 per team" rule.

NA: Impact, Reignover, Bjergsen, Liftlift, Aphromoo.

EU: Odo, Trashy, ???, FORGIVEN, Mithy.

I have a less strong memory for EU players and which ones I ended up being the most impressed by during the regular season, so I'm honestly not confident about my Jungle pick or who the heck I'm picking for Mid.

I don't watch any other region regularly, but I threw in obligatory votes for Peanut and Faker, because I want to see them on the world stage more yes please.

[Renegade Paladin]

Man. The Talon rework looks so cool.

Too bad he's a filthy Noxian. :smalltongue:

[thracian]

I certainly hope so. I'd've picked WildTurtle over DL in the TSM lineup anyday.

In terms of player skill or player persona? Arguing over persona is w/e, but you'd be in staggering minority if you picked Wildturtle over DLift nowadays in terms of ability to win games.

[Joran]

FORGIVEN came back to H2K for playoffs + Worlds because Freeze (their main starter) injured his wrist. I'm not 100% for what's happening with them and the team next season.

They totally screwed up my All Stars, though, since I wanted to pick Odoammne, FORGIVEN, and Ryu, and had to give up Ryu. Curse that silly "2 per team" rule.

NA: Impact, Reignover, Bjergsen, Liftlift, Aphromoo.

EU: Odo, Trashy, ???, FORGIVEN, Mithy.

I have a less strong memory for EU players and which ones I ended up being the most impressed by during the regular season, so I'm honestly not confident about my Jungle pick or who the heck I'm picking for Mid.

I don't watch any other region regularly, but I threw in obligatory votes for Peanut and Faker, because I want to see them on the world stage more yes please.

I went with:
NA: Huni, Reignover, Bjergsen, Liftlift, Aphro. Huni's much more entertaining than Impact and I'm valuing Huni's performance in the regular season, more than Impact coming up clutch in the playoffs.

EU: Odo, Trick, Ryu, Zven, Yellowstar. Picked Yellowstar to go to one Final Worlds as a lifetime achievement award.

P.S. I probably would have picked Forgiven for ADC, except that I already had Odo and Ryu.


I certainly hope so. I'd've picked WildTurtle over DL in the TSM lineup anyday.

WildTurtle isn't as good mechanically as DL and isn't as good a laner. Both ADCs suffer a bit from going too aggro and putting themselves into poor positions. Additionally, I think DLift was one of the main shotcallers on TSM and TSM's shotcalling was great during the Summer Split.

As a TSM fan, I'm going to miss Doublelift, but that Lucian play in the finals is one of the all time great plays in NA LCS history.

[Ashen Lilies]

hmm... All-Stars does count as an international tournament, come to think of it.

Picking anyone from G2 might be a risk...

[Vogie]

In terms of player skill or player persona? Arguing over persona is w/e, but you'd be in staggering minority if you picked Wildturtle over DLift nowadays in terms of ability to win games.

He may be below DL in innate ability to win games, but I felt that he meshed with the team and could take direction better than DL. In a pure-mechanics, "1v1mebro" environment, DL would win hands down, no question, over the vast majority of professional players... but for such a mechanically intensive and important role in competitive 5s, I wouldn't want the ADC to be shotcalling or clashing/arguing with the shotcaller.

[thracian]

He may be below DL in innate ability to win games, but I felt that he meshed with the team and could take direction better than DL. In a pure-mechanics, "1v1mebro" environment, DL would win hands down, no question, over the vast majority of professional players... but for such a mechanically intensive and important role in competitive 5s, I wouldn't want the ADC to be shotcalling or clashing/arguing with the shotcaller.

I specified ability to win games for a reason. If Doublelift, even with the weight of shotcalling, not taking direction well and having issues with players he doesn't respect still has a better contribution towards winning games than Wildturtle, that says something about the skill disparity.

If your goal is to have a fun-to-watch team that plays aggressively and then sits at home while the real top teams in a region go to worlds, take Wildturtle. If you want to actually win in clutch games and take home a trophy, I'd take Doublelift.

[PhantomFox]

*sigh* Somewhat annoyed at myself. Every season so far I've been able to end ranked a division above last time, but not this year. Maybe... 50 LP more. So I won't be able to get to Gold on my own this year. Again.
(Hur hur hur, can't hear you all the way up here in diamond/platinum/whatever, scrub)
Shut up, inferiority brain weasels!

[Lethologica]

*sigh* Somewhat annoyed at myself. Every season so far I've been able to end ranked a division above last time, but not this year. Maybe... 50 LP more. So I won't be able to get to Gold on my own this year. Again.
(Hur hur hur, can't hear you all the way up here in diamond/platinum/whatever, scrub)
Shut up, inferiority brain weasels!
Haha, you thought it was inferiority brain weasels, but...

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/754/539/566.gif

[Ivellius]

I'm going to pointedly ignore the last two posts.

Also: huh, I got to Platinum this season. It was kind of anti-climactic winning the first three games in the series. Hardly any pressure or anything.

[Vogie]

I specified ability to win games for a reason. If Doublelift, even with the weight of shotcalling, not taking direction well and having issues with players he doesn't respect still has a better contribution towards winning games than Wildturtle, that says something about the skill disparity.

If your goal is to have a fun-to-watch team that plays aggressively and then sits at home while the real top teams in a region go to worlds, take Wildturtle. If you want to actually win in clutch games and take home a trophy, I'd take Doublelift.

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

[Joran]

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

I'm confused by why Season 4 and previous matters for the current state of Doublelift and WildTurtle; that's two years ago and players change. It's a simple fact that TSM completely lost faith in WildTurtle at the end of Season 5; that's why they brought in Keith as a sub and that's why they replaced WildTurtle after Season 5 with Doublelift. Doublelift's record the last 3 splits is impressive; he's won 2 LCS splits (1 with CLG, 1 with a dominant TSM) and finished second the other split.

WildTurtle's a good player, one with noticeable flaws, but given the choice between WildTurtle and Doublelift on TSM, give me Doublelift.

Edit: As a TSM fan, I do miss some of the "Doublelift is a choker" memes, but I've been nothing but impressed with him on TSM.

[Ashen Lilies]

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

There are four other players on the team, you know.

Also coaching and support staff.

[thracian]

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

In addition to what others said (especially Joran, thanks for making me not have to type it out), do you remember Season 3 CLG? People joked about Bjergsen and his wards, and how if Bjergsen makes a single mistake they lose the game immediately, but CLG was way, way more reliant on Doublelift than TSM ever was on Bjerg.

Also, Doublelift never played second-fiddle to TSM. CLG did, sure. But even back in the day, once the initial pentakill hype wore off, pretty much everyone who wasn't a blind TSM fanboy conceded that Doublelift is the best ADC in NA. Most considered him the best ADC in the west.

[Joran]

In addition to what others said (especially Joran, thanks for making me not have to type it out), do you remember Season 3 CLG? People joked about Bjergsen and his wards, and how if Bjergsen makes a single mistake they lose the game immediately, but CLG was way, way more reliant on Doublelift than TSM ever was on Bjerg.

Also, Doublelift never played second-fiddle to TSM. CLG did, sure. But even back in the day, once the initial pentakill hype wore off, pretty much everyone who wasn't a blind TSM fanboy conceded that Doublelift is the best ADC in NA. Most considered him the best ADC in the west.

I think there's also a point to be made that Doublelift had a marked change in attitude between CLG and TSM. Before he was unceremoniously kicked off of CLG, Doublelift was not a good team member. He's even stated that he wasn't the best teammate when XMithie had visa troubles between his win between Summer Split and Worlds, not to mention that 17 page epic story known as the "Donezo Manifesto".

Switching to TSM was the best thing to happen to Doublelift because he joined a team where he was no longer the alpha dog. There were strong leaders in Bjergsen and Reginald that had the standing to challenge Doublelift and focus him toward what was best for the team. It also was a wake up call that his previous attitude was not healthy and having a fresh start was important to changing that attitude.

The Doublelift of 2016 is much different than even the Doublelift of 2015 and he was undeniably a big part of the success of Summer Split TSM.

[Maryring]

A friend of mine plays DOTA and he finally pushed me into playing the game with him yesterday. And I already know I won't be playing it at all except for the benefit of someone else. I have never seen such an obtuse, unfriendly system. That game is to LoL, what LoL was to Dawngate, and I found Dawngate to be perfection.

So yeah, LoL 's gonna reign for my MOBA needs for a while yet.

[lord_khaine]

A friend of mine plays DOTA and he finally pushed me into playing the game with him yesterday. And I already know I won't be playing it at all except for the benefit of someone else. I have never seen such an obtuse, unfriendly system. That game is to LoL, what LoL was to Dawngate, and I found Dawngate to be perfection.

I read a study of the game system, that explained how it straight up encuraged a toxic enviroment by its design.

[Maryring]

I read a study of the game system, that explained how it straight up encuraged a toxic enviroment by its design.

Considering the tutorial includes the bots shouting insults that honestly doesn't surprise me. Though I'd still love to read that article.

[Lethologica]

my god, it's full of lux skins

[Siosilvar]

A friend of mine plays DOTA and he finally pushed me into playing the game with him yesterday. And I already know I won't be playing it at all except for the benefit of someone else. I have never seen such an obtuse, unfriendly system. That game is to LoL, what LoL was to Dawngate, and I found Dawngate to be perfection.

So yeah, LoL 's gonna reign for my MOBA needs for a while yet.

Yeahhhhh it's pretty good but oh my god the learning curve was the shallowest* I've ever seen. Because it spent so long on the Warcraft 3 engine, there are so many mechanics that aren't intuitive in the least. It gets a lot better with experience but the first fifty games are really bad. At least they've been doing a few small mechanics reworks to make them less unnecessarily complicated (damage types and spell immunity come to mind).

*yes, this is the technically correct phrasing. shallow = slow acquisition of knowledge. no idea why common parlance switched them.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

*yes, this is the technically correct phrasing. shallow = slow acquisition of knowledge. no idea why common parlance switched them.

Out of curiosity...do you have a source for that? I enjoy linguistic roots, but have NEVER heard of this use of shallow, and can't seem to track it down.

[Dire Ferret]

*yes, this is the technically correct phrasing. shallow = slow acquisition of knowledge. no idea why common parlance switched them.

A steep learning curve implies that it takes a long time to climb.

[Siosilvar]

Out of curiosity...do you have a source for that? I enjoy linguistic roots, but have NEVER heard of this use of shallow, and can't seem to track it down.

A steep learning curve implies that it takes a long time to climb.

Okay, I guess "no idea why common parlance switched them" was wrong because I forgot that it's based on a misunderstanding of what the curve is. In common usage, the curve is a hill to climb. In the literature, the curve is the amount of knowledge you gain with a certain amount of experience.

As far as sourcing it, here's a decent summary (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/a-steep-learning-curve-for-downton-abbey/). I will admit to pulling that off the bottom of the Wikipedia page about learning curves. It seems that "steep" and "shallow" were confused almost immediately after use, so I suppose I should revise my original post to say Dota has a long learning curve.

edit: Hm, I'm not sure if it was actually the slowest I've picked up a game. I think EU4 took me more game hours to fully understand, but then again I had previous League and Warcraft experience to pull from for Dota, and I spend a lot of time outside of games reading about them.

[Ivellius]

Okay, I guess "no idea why common parlance switched them" was wrong because I forgot that it's based on a misunderstanding of what the curve is. In common usage, the curve is a hill to climb. In the literature, the curve is the amount of knowledge you gain with a certain amount of experience.

I would suggest that common parlance has just changed the variables under consideration: it's not a "knowledge compared with time" graph but an "amount of knowledge required to gain game proficiency" graph. Under that concept, a "steep learning curve" means you will need to gain a lot of game knowledge before you can really do anything competently.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I would suggest that common parlance has just changed the variables under consideration: it's not a "knowledge compared with time" graph but an "amount of knowledge required to gain game proficiency" graph. Under that concept, a "steep learning curve" means you will need to gain a lot of game knowledge before you can really do anything competently.

This is how I've always interpreted it, yeah. You can pick up League or DotA pretty fast...if you're willing to pour over all the tiny details.

[Recaiden]

Both of these curves are steep.
http://www.themathpage.com/aprecalc/Pre_IMG/log-e.png http://xahlee.info/SpecialPlaneCurves_dir/ExponentialCurve_dir/exp_plot.png
But only one of them is shallow.

Math is a tricky thing.

[sonofzeal]

Speaking as a math guy myself, I always interpretted it less as a graph, and more as a hill. If it's shallow, it's easy to walk up; if it's steep, it's hard.

[thracian]

Stupid Ghostblade nerfs.

[lord_khaine]

Considering the tutorial includes the bots shouting insults that honestly doesn't surprise me. Though I'd still love to read that article.

It were a youtube article, i have tried to find it, but it has kinda sunk back into the sea :smallfrown:

[thracian]

Leblanc clears minions more easily, but the delay before reactivation on her passive makes her feel noticeably weaker than she was. Talon seems interesting. Katarina is fun, but seems tricky.

EDIT: Krug spawning is buggy, one small one spawned on the other side of the wall, ran back around to the proper side and then promptly ran away again as patience ran out. Appeared to set his "home" to the other side of the wall, near red buff bush. Ivern also does not get any gold/xp from the Matryoshka Krugs, only the initial two. Possibly intentional, as that much gold and xp cleared instantly might be more than Riot wants to give. Speaking of which, the Krug camp gives a different amount of XP depending on what order you kill them.

Talon wall running is buggy. Certain walls at certain angles will put you back on the same side of the wall, usually having moved a very short distance.

The common theme among the reworks seems to be introducing blatant counterplay openings. I think a few of them are too heavy-handed, and with the lack of any changes to other gameplay elements that reduce the effectiveness of assassins (teamfight meta, vision being very accessible and strong, exhaust not being removed by QSS), don't hold your breath for assassins to make a triumphant return in competitive-level play.

[Olinser]

Leblanc clears minions more easily, but the delay before reactivation on her passive makes her feel noticeably weaker than she was. Talon seems interesting. Katarina is fun, but seems tricky.

EDIT: Krug spawning is buggy, one small one spawned on the other side of the wall, ran back around to the proper side and then promptly ran away again as patience ran out. Appeared to set his "home" to the other side of the wall, near red buff bush. Ivern also does not get any gold/xp from the Matryoshka Krugs, only the initial two. Possibly intentional, as that much gold and xp cleared instantly might be more than Riot wants to give. Speaking of which, the Krug camp gives a different amount of XP depending on what order you kill them.

Talon wall running is buggy. Certain walls at certain angles will put you back on the same side of the wall, usually having moved a very short distance.

The common theme among the reworks seems to be introducing blatant counterplay openings. I think a few of them are too heavy-handed, and with the lack of any changes to other gameplay elements that reduce the effectiveness of assassins (teamfight meta, vision being very accessible and strong, exhaust not being removed by QSS), don't hold your breath for assassins to make a triumphant return in competitive-level play.

Saw the Krug issue myself. They definitely need to work on the spawns.

On the whole it feels to me like they significantly increased the assassin skill requirement to get about the same performance, and significantly DECREASED the skill necessary to counterplay/outplay them. But a couple of them it also feels like a sufficiently skilled player will get higher performance. We'll have to see where it goes. I agree with you though, the window for counter-playing assassins is so big now that pro players will have no problem shutting them down and keeping them off their carries.

But on the other hand, a Zed that kills a 6 item Jhin is unstoppable. Zed gets about +100 AD from him.

[Ashen Lilies]

Ivern not getting the full payoff for the Krug camp is intentional. (http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/eUvY4eWq-ivern-only-gets-80-gold-for-killing-kruggs-he-should-get-the-full-160-g-and-full-xp-too?comment=0002)

[thracian]

As much as I think she's probably garbage tier right now, Katarina is the most enjoyable champion in the game to lane right now. Katarina vs. Katarina mirrors are probably the best argument for this preseason existing.

[Olinser]

As much as I think she's probably garbage tier right now, Katarina is the most enjoyable champion in the game to lane right now. Katarina vs. Katarina mirrors are probably the best argument for this preseason existing.

Can you pick up the other kat's knives?

[thracian]

Can you pick up the other kat's knives?

Nope. That'd be a little silly.

[Dienekes]

Ivern not getting the full payoff for the Krug camp is intentional. (http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/eUvY4eWq-ivern-only-gets-80-gold-for-killing-kruggs-he-should-get-the-full-160-g-and-full-xp-too?comment=0002)

Well that certainly sucks for the 1 guy I saw trying to use jungle Ivern since his release.

[Olinser]

Nope. That'd be a little silly.

That made me think of this Family Guy scene (start at 26 seconds) :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI7q6DF6D54

[Vogie]

Talon wall running is buggy. Certain walls at certain angles will put you back on the same side of the wall, usually having moved a very short distance.

I'm really surprised they didn't use the same landing indicator for his jump that they did with... whatever the bomb plants are called. They shipped at the same time, and are for effectively the same thing.


Nope. That'd be a little silly.

An opposing Draven can catch the other Draven's Axes, so there is precedent...

[thracian]

Draven catching other Draven axes does not change the dynamic of how to play the lane nearly as much as Kat daggers would. Katarina's entire kit, barring her ult, is now based entirely around getting daggers in good places and using them to control zones and grant additional mobility. If your zones of control are now enemy zones of control as well, midlane immediately becomes a very silly place.

EDIT: Renekton tended to take Fervor before this patch, but he's pretty much only going to take it now.

[Reinboom]

I read a study of the game system, that explained how it straight up encuraged a toxic enviroment by its design.

I'm very curious about this study.

Do you have a source or any bit more of information that would make it easier to find?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm very curious about this study.

Do you have a source or any bit more of information that would make it easier to find?

Likewise highly curious: I've seen many articles on why the GENRE of games encourages toxicity, but never one specifically targeted at DotA...and, I hope, differentiating its issues from those of other games in the same genre?

[Reinboom]

Likewise highly curious: I've seen many articles on why the GENRE of games encourages toxicity, but never one specifically targeted at DotA...and, I hope, differentiating its issues from those of other games in the same genre?

Huh, I read it as one on Dawngate. I'm less interested (but would still read) one on DotA.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Huh, I read it as one on Dawngate. I'm less interested (but would still read) one on DotA.

You may be right? I'm unsure -- it seemed the system in discussion was DotAs, and then Dawngate was brought up, but the structure of the sentence isn't as clear as I'd like.

I'm mainly basing this on the fact that, from what I've seen, I'd say DotA's design lends itself more towards toxicity than Dawngate's. :smallbiggrin:

[Maryring]

While I don't know the study in question, I sincerely doubt Dawngate lent itself to toxicity since it lacked a forced support role and instead made both lanes duo lanes with decent gold generation for the nonfarmers. While DOTA has mechanics like creep denial built into the system.

[lord_khaine]

I'm very curious about this study.

Do you have a source or any bit more of information that would make it easier to find?

Hmm.. at closer thought i can see i made a minor mistake, and confused Dota with heroes of Newearth. I do apologize for that. Though all the same it seems the two games are clones of each other.

Anyway, as mentioned it were a youtube article, from about 2-3 years ago at least. And i have done my best to see if i could not find the relevant video once more on google but failed to do so.
Its a shame really, because it had a lot of good points. It went into the details of the game mechanics, and pointed out the ones that served in particular to turn people against each other and promoted egoism.

The points in particular that stood out were how that game tracked KDA for your games, how it were possible to solo carry and how that meant gathering as much gold and farm on a single person were an advantage, as well as how snowballing the games could become.

[Ivellius]

The points in particular that stood out were how that game tracked KDA for your games, how it were possible to solo carry and how that meant gathering as much gold and farm on a single person were an advantage, as well as how snowballing the games could become.

I feel like I may have seen / read something along these lines, though it's been a while. There's also the mechanic that a team that loses a player gets that player's income, meaning that encouraging a poor player to quit may be the most optimal move for your team.

[lord_khaine]

I feel like I may have seen / read something along these lines, though it's been a while. There's also the mechanic that a team that loses a player gets that player's income, meaning that encouraging a poor player to quit may be the most optimal move for your team.

Oh yeah its worse though, you can vote to kick people out of a game in HoN.

[Joran]

I feel like I may have seen / read something along these lines, though it's been a while. There's also the mechanic that a team that loses a player gets that player's income, meaning that encouraging a poor player to quit may be the most optimal move for your team.

I remember seeing this video too. I think it may have been an Extra Credits or GDC video, but haven't been able to find it.

[Nadevoc]

Hmm.. at closer thought i can see i made a minor mistake, and confused Dota with heroes of Newearth. I do apologize for that. Though all the same it seems the two games are clones of each other.

Anyway, as mentioned it were a youtube article, from about 2-3 years ago at least. And i have done my best to see if i could not find the relevant video once more on google but failed to do so.
Its a shame really, because it had a lot of good points. It went into the details of the game mechanics, and pointed out the ones that served in particular to turn people against each other and promoted egoism.

The points in particular that stood out were how that game tracked KDA for your games, how it were possible to solo carry and how that meant gathering as much gold and farm on a single person were an advantage, as well as how snowballing the games could become.

HoN and DotA 2 are both clones of the original DotA All-Stars (custom map for Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne). They diverged and weren't exactly the same, but yes, they're more or less clones and the underlying game design is the same, so it would apply to DotA as well.

[Maryring]

I remember seeing this video too. I think it may have been an Extra Credits or GDC video, but haven't been able to find it.

I binged on EC videos recently and didn't see it among those, so probably that other thing you mentioned if so.

[Dienekes]

So anyone have any thoughts on the assassin update? I don't particularly play many of them, myself. But, I just Aramed Shaco and it just did not feel good, at all. Probably doing something wrong, but I just felt useless the whole game.

I've been pretty much afraid to actually try normals, like pretty much every pre-season, at least until Riot gets a few weeks to fine-tune everything and I get a read on how annoying those plants are going to be.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So anyone have any thoughts on the assassin update? I don't particularly play many of them, myself. But, I just Aramed Shaco and it just did not feel good, at all. Probably doing something wrong, but I just felt useless the whole game.

I've only played Talon so far, and he's a lot of fun...although his Jump is unreliable at best, and I feel would benefit STRONGLY from an indicator like that of the blast flowers: sometimes it's hard to predict exactly where he will land with some of the geometry.

I was also very frustrated that game: the enemy had a jungle Shaco and, although I was equally fed if more fed at most stages, I felt entirely powerless against him. My burst had been delayed enough that I couldn't one-shot him instantly, and Talon cannot catch someone with that long a period of invisibility after a blink. It really felt like a hard counter: I'd hit him, he'd go invisible, and that would be that. And if he hit me first I'd usually struggle to get away unless there was a wall immediately present. It felt...awful and crippling, actually.

[Siosilvar]

I've been pretty much afraid to actually try normals, like pretty much every pre-season, at least until Riot gets a few weeks to fine-tune everything and I get a read on how annoying those plants are going to be.

Wouldn't the fastest way to figure out how the plants are going to be... to go and play where the plants are? What's even at stake in normals? This stuff is new to everybody, and you can always play draft where all the new stuff is going to be banned out anyway.

[Renegade Paladin]

This new ranked queue is bonkers; I keep winding up with platinum players. It's like doing normals with Thracian except I'm not in chat with everybody and my team's really mean about it. :smalltongue:

[Dienekes]

Wouldn't the fastest way to figure out how the plants are going to be... to go and play where the plants are? What's even at stake in normals? This stuff is new to everybody, and you can always play draft where all the new stuff is going to be banned out anyway.

Because if the answer ends up being "super annoying" I'd rather just stop playing the game. All evidence points to it being incredibly annoying, so I'm going to wait to see if people end up talking about it, and if they discuss the aspects about it that I don't particularly like and people talk strategy in a way that seems counter to what I find fun in the game, I'm perfectly fine just playing ARAMs until they rework Pantheon and I just quit the game for good.

[Renegade Paladin]

The plants don't seem annoying so far. It's a nice vision and escape tool, and the berries in the river haven't come up all that much, honestly. I did see a full health person kill one and eat them all for no reason just now, though; it was funny because the slow meant I could catch her. :smalltongue:

[thracian]

This new ranked queue is bonkers; I keep winding up with platinum players. It's like doing normals with Thracian except I'm not in chat with everybody and my team's really mean about it. :smalltongue:

At least you weren't a bunch of Bronze/Silver players that just kinda had Faker in the game.

Flex queue is super ****ed right now.

EDIT: Plants don't do that much. Blast plants sometimes lead to unexpected results, but they're mostly a non-factor at the moment.

Champion balance is kinda all over. Regarding assassins, LeBlanc's laning is better, but her teamfighting is comparatively awful. Katarina is sorta trash, but she's super fun at least. Kha'Zix and Rengar seem to generally be considered bonkers, with people being on the fence regarding Talon and Fizz. General opinion is that they're at weakest, they're in the same ballpark as they used to be, but with proper learning they might end up being stronger. Akali W is super nice, but the damage nerfs overall on her kit and the relative weakness of her passive compared to her old one lead me to think she's in a slightly weaker spot than she was before. Zed, Ekko and Shaco didn't really change noticeably, although they obviously did change some.

Many people who relied on Ghostblade spike early are a little screwed now, and Fervor is significantly weaker. Lucian is super, super sad because of this, and MF isn't happy either. Twitch and Draven mostly just build crit now. Twitch is actually looking really strong right now, mostly due to the changes to his Venom Cask.

Fiddlesticks is super garbage. Every single change made to the jungle this patch hinders him (no ward clearing with raptor buff, buffs have fewer enemies so fewer Dark Wind bounces, krugs and raptors have too many enemies for Drain to be meaningful, doesn't need honeyfruit due to already being hyper-sustained, blast fruit knocks him out of Drain...)

Support items are largely pretty insane. Redemption is a standout as particularly bonkers, but Knight's Vow is pretty nice as well.

As far as I can tell, what is popular has changed dramatically but what is strong hasn't changed much.

[Dienekes]

Zed, Ekko and Shaco didn't really change noticeably, although they obviously did change some.


Huh, to me Shaco felt way weaker. But that may be because I only ARAM Shaco, and do AP.

And, well, Shiv lost about 85 in base damage, 10% in AP scaling, and no longer gains the 20% Backstab bonus. That along with losing 2 seconds of early stealth really shut down any capability to harass the enemy team, forcing most of your damage to be melee, which, is often suicidal in ARAM.

Definitely not a situation they were really trying to balance around, but it was a bit annoying just having things that I know I can normally pull off just failing, repeatedly.

[thracian]

Huh, to me Shaco felt way weaker. But that may be because I only ARAM Shaco, and do AP.

And, well, Shiv lost about 85 in base damage, 10% in AP scaling, and no longer gains the 20% Backstab bonus. That along with losing 2 seconds of early stealth really shut down any capability to harass the enemy team, forcing most of your damage to be melee, which, is often suicidal in ARAM.

Definitely not a situation they were really trying to balance around, but it was a bit annoying just having things that I know I can normally pull off just failing, repeatedly.

Bringing up ARAM when talking about balance is pointless. There's absolutely nothing useful to be gained by discussing ARAM balance when Riot has repeatedly said, for years, that they don't balance around alternate game modes.

Regarding Shaco, his winrate on Summoner's Rift is virtually unchanged, despite a 50% increase in playrate this patch.

[Dienekes]

Bringing up ARAM when talking about balance is pointless. There's absolutely nothing useful to be gained by discussing ARAM balance when Riot has repeatedly said, for years, that they don't balance around alternate game modes.

Regarding Shaco, his winrate on Summoner's Rift is virtually unchanged, despite a 50% increase in playrate this patch.

Yeah fair enough. Only brought up because I only play him on ARAM, because I think he's funny. He's one of, I think, 5 champions I own simply because I enjoy them on ARAM.

[Recaiden]

Having played against shaco once in a normal game, he felt much harder to kill, and much less able to delete me, a squishy midlaner.

[Ashen Lilies]

Holy flippin' lore release, batman! (http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/)

Also includes a lot of lore for champions who were left behind in the original Institute of War retcon. I checked Jax and Fiddles briefly. They both have short stories now.

[Dienekes]

Holy flippin' lore release, batman! (http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/)

Also includes a lot of lore for champions who were left behind in the original Institute of War retcon. I checked Jax and Fiddles briefly. They both have short stories now.

Ugh, come on Riot, Fiora doesn't use a sabre. That's just sloppy fact checking.

Other than that, Jax's story did pretty well. It did away with definitively calling him "the best champion ever lol haxxorz" nonsense and instead made him arguably the best around, showcasing him beating a bunch of guys repeatedly.

It even gives hints at what he is. Which I won't spoil for those who want to go read it.

And, old Poppy is still in Galio's lore. You keep on trucking, my awesome quiet, and stoic yordle. You'll always be better than the incarnate of every annoying personality trait ever wrapped up in bubblegum that is your current form, to me.

And amusing, to me, Morg and Kayle are still space aliens in a civil war. But now without IoW they have no reason to be on Runeterra, and in their lores, they are not. They're just, in space. Doing space things.

[Siosilvar]

Ugh, come on Riot, Fiora doesn't using a sabre. That's just sloppy fact checking.

Fiora uses a cut-and-thrust sword inspired by early modern swords. "Sabre" is a perfectly valid word for it, even if it's double-edged. "Rapier" is also an alright word, even if it's got a rather wide blade. The distinction between many different types of swords is by no means that clear-cut (pun intended).

[lord_khaine]

It even gives hints at what he is. Which I won't spoil for those who want to go read it.



Certainly loved the new addition, were about time we got a bit more knowledre of how Jax fit in with everything else.
And i guess the hints point towards Jax being from Shurema.

[Dienekes]

Fiora uses a cut-and-thrust sword inspired by early modern swords. "Sabre" is a perfectly valid word for it, even if it's double-edged. "Rapier" is also an alright word, even if it's got a rather wide blade. The distinction between many different types of swords is by no means that clear-cut (pun intended).

No it is not. Since all sabres are single edge. It is a category of sword, a curved backsword whether it comes from India the Magyars or France, it its called a scimitar, or talwar. That's what a sabre is. What Fiora uses is not a sabre.

Early modern cut and thrust sword, you got rapiers, sideswords, smallswords, extremely late arming swords, broadswords, technically would count as well.

None of those are sabres though. Hell even the word sabre comes from the 17th century specifically to denote a type of backsword.

[Siosilvar]

Most sabres have single-edged, curved blades, but not all. Honestly, the strongest argument against it being a sabre is the cup guard.

And that's before we get into things like "poetic license".

[Dienekes]

Most sabres have single-edged, curved blades, but not all. Honestly, the strongest argument against it being a sabre is the cup guard.

And that's before we get into things like "poetic license".

Find a sabre that isn't. Which is pretty difficult to do since the definition of the word in its historical use was to denote single edge swords.

[Siosilvar]

Easy. M1913 "Patton" saber.

[Dienekes]

Easy. M1913 "Patton" saber.

Ahh yes, the Patton sword. The sword developed by the guy trying to completely change what style of sword the cavalry were using, and just called it saber because he assumed that all cavalry swords were called sabers. It fits the definition of estoc, it looks like an estoc with a dish hilt, and was used like an estoc. But he called it a saber, because he didn't know what he was talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBi94etcII

But, fairness where fairness is due. You proved me wrong. I grudgingly take back my complaint.

[Recaiden]

Took them long enough.

[thracian]

Man, flex queue ranked was rough for a while there. Saw a game where a challenger player was matched against a Bronze V and a pre-30. In ranked.

[PhantomFox]

New champion teaser Camille (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/camille-comic)
Piltover Robotic... assassain? Enforcer? I'm not sure. She doesn't seem connected to Caitlyn and Vi. More... politically aligned than through law enforcement? Getting vibes of Vetiniri in terms of philosophy. Gameplay wise, we just had a jungler, so probably not that, so next best guess is a AP mid assassin?

[Forum Explorer]

Man, flex queue ranked was rough for a while there. Saw a game where a challenger player was matched against a Bronze V and a pre-30. In ranked.

That's insane. And I thought my match ups were bad. :smalleek:

[Ashen Lilies]

She has stabby knife legs. Definitely going to be AD rather than AP focused. AP + Stabby knife legs doesn't really make sense.

Could be an assassin, could also be some sort of skirmisher champion like Yasuo and Fiora.

She seems super prejudiced against Zaunites. Probably doesn't get along with Piltover law enforcement, and she and Ekko will hate each other.

[Dienekes]

She has stabby knife legs. Definitely going to be AD rather than AP focused. AP + Stabby knife legs doesn't really make sense.

Could be an assassin, could also be some sort of skirmisher champion like Yasuo and Fiora.

She seems super prejudiced against Zaunites. Probably doesn't get along with Piltover law enforcement, and she and Ekko will hate each other.


Yeah there hasn't been any AD robots except Urgot- kinda.

Which made me realize there totally needs to be a completely non-humanoid robot character. Like a floaty deathball of razor blades and guns and weird pointy bits.

That'd be awesome.

[Lethologica]

Yeah there hasn't been any AD robots except Urgot- kinda.

Which made me realize there totally needs to be a completely non-humanoid robot character. Like a floaty deathball of razor blades and guns and weird pointy bits.

That'd be awesome.

There's always Cho'mechwarrior.

[Renegade Paladin]

Man, flex queue ranked was rough for a while there. Saw a game where a challenger player was matched against a Bronze V and a pre-30. In ranked.

How did the pre-30 get into ranked? :smalleek:

[thracian]

How did the pre-30 get into ranked? :smalleek:

Duo-queuing with one of the level 30s.

Flex queue was seriously busted this past week.

[Ionbound]

Yeah there hasn't been any AD robots except Urgot- kinda.

Which made me realize there totally needs to be a completely non-humanoid robot character. Like a floaty deathball of razor blades and guns and weird pointy bits.

That'd be awesome.


So Orianna? :smalltongue:

[Vogie]

She has stabby knife legs. Definitely going to be AD rather than AP focused. AP + Stabby knife legs doesn't really make sense.

Could be an assassin, could also be some sort of skirmisher champion like Yasuo and Fiora.

She seems super prejudiced against Zaunites. Probably doesn't get along with Piltover law enforcement, and she and Ekko will hate each other.

Katarina would like to have a word with you...

[Dienekes]

So Orianna? :smalltongue:

How is Oriana non-humanoid?

You could make the case for Oriana's ball but that's not the champion. She also is lacking in guns and pointy bits. I'm thinking more like a Dalek or that torture droid from Star Wars.

[Nadevoc]

How is Oriana non-humanoid?

You could make the case for Oriana's ball but that's not the champion. She also is lacking in guns and pointy bits. I'm thinking more like a Dalek or that torture droid from Star Wars.

I would find that *horribly* out of theme for League

[Forum Explorer]

How is Oriana non-humanoid?

You could make the case for Oriana's ball but that's not the champion. She also is lacking in guns and pointy bits. I'm thinking more like a Dalek or that torture droid from Star Wars.

Please, the Ball does all the work. Orianna is clearly nothing more then a distraction to attract enemy fire. :smallwink: :smallamused:

[Ionbound]

How is Oriana non-humanoid?

You could make the case for Oriana's ball but that's not the champion. She also is lacking in guns and pointy bits. I'm thinking more like a Dalek or that torture droid from Star Wars.

That's the joke. That Oriana is all the ball and not the rest of the character

[Ashen Lilies]

Katarina would like to have a word with you...

Katarina is a very old champion from when design philosophies about how AP and AD worked were very different. They actually considered during the assassin update whether to convert Katarina into an AD scaling champion instead of an AP one in order to make her thematically more coherent, but in terms of pure gameplay patterns they felt like her itemization options in AP were better to keep as is (in retrospect, Edge of Night may or may not have been a huge part of this).

The new era of champion design tends to be more tight and logical when it comes to marrying design and gameplay, so I'd fully expect a character with sharp stabby knife legs to scale off of AD. That weird shieldy needle dive thing she does (perhaps an ultimate?) is the one demonstrated ability where I could see a case for some different scaling, perhaps an AP ratio (for Baron), possibly health ratio.

[Dienekes]

I would find that *horribly* out of theme for League

League has a theme? I thought it was just a hodge-podge of silly.

[Nadevoc]

League has a theme? I thought it was just a hodge-podge of silly.

Built on a fantasy base.

[mrcarter11]

http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-update/ability-update-shyvana
Shyvana kit changes.

Passive is lower stats, specifically 5. Doesn't scale with level anymore, get +5 for each elemental dragon your team has. Also 10% bonus damage to dragons.
W, dragon form no longer leaves trail, instead it's bigger.
E, dragon form is no longer wider, instead you can "detonate" it before max range to leave a fire field that marks for E
R, no longer resistances, bonus health (150/250/350), but does less damage and has less range. Also now uninterruptible.

Need to see how far the range got hit I think. Numbers weren't provided for that. The loss of so many resistances might be pretty painful as well I figure.

[Dienekes]

Built on a fantasy base.

With cyborgs, and robots, and aliens, and space empires, and teleportation, and sentient AI, and time machines, and champions that constantly talk about fairly advanced scientific concepts beyond what a fantasy culture with the tech of, say, Demacia would know, like black holes and atoms.

[Ashen Lilies]

http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-update/ability-update-shyvana
Shyvana kit changes.

Passive is lower stats, specifically 5. Doesn't scale with level anymore, get +5 for each elemental dragon your team has. Also 10% bonus damage to dragons.
W, dragon form no longer leaves trail, instead it's bigger.
E, dragon form is no longer wider, instead you can "detonate" it before max range to leave a fire field that marks for E
R, no longer resistances, bonus health (150/250/350), but does less damage and has less range. Also now uninterruptible.

Need to see how far the range got hit I think. Numbers weren't provided for that. The loss of so many resistances might be pretty painful as well I figure.

R also has a larger model and wider hitbox that scales up with rank.

[mrcarter11]

R also has a larger model and wider hitbox that scales up with rank.

did I miss that in the article or is it listed elsewhere?

[Ashen Lilies]

did I miss that in the article or is it listed elsewhere?

The article mentions that her ult is "bigger". The information that it actually scales up with rank comes from other comments.

[thracian]

Fountain laser does not respond to cries for help when you attack a champion in the fountain. Using Ryze ultimate, you can port a bunch of minions into the fountain with you for a flawless fountain dive.

[lord_khaine]

Passive is lower stats, specifically 5. Doesn't scale with level anymore, get +5 for each elemental dragon your team has. Also 10% bonus damage to dragons.

I agree, it feels like a bad idea to tie her survivability in with killing elemental dragons. Either her team is ahead and is able to secure multiple dragons, or else they are behind, fails to do so and leaves a squishy Shyvanna who still needs to dive into the enemy team. Sounds a lot like a feast or famine situation.

[Renegade Paladin]

On the other hand, I very rarely have a problem securing dragon as Shyvana; she just has to maintain vision control and solo it.

[thracian]

just has to maintain vision control

I'll make sure to let all the pro teams know how easy it is to take Baron, then. They just have to maintain vision control, after all!

[Ashen Lilies]

As far as the dragon passive goes, I think the first incarnation of it (where she got true damage conversion/tower damage reduction/cdr/slow reduction based on elemental drakes taken) was more interesting. The new incarnation has the same gameplay incentives but with a stunningly boring payoff. 5 armor and mr! yay! Even if the first incarnation was likely overtuned in raw numbers, that could have been scaled back, and I liked the idea of Shyvana getting unique small bonuses from dragons taken rather than a flat resistances buff.

It seems to me that they thought most of the rest of her kit had become overtuned and they had to intentionally give her a very mediocre passive to compensate. Overall though it's not really a big concern to me. Shyvana's gameplay role as a jungler (forget about playing top shyvana. it's bad. it will remain bad.) is going to be a huge ******* to the enemy jungler, take their camps, and pressure objectives anyway, since her ganking is so poor and you can't just afk farm as effectively this season if you're only sticking to just your half. The passive is just additional rewards for doing what you should have already been doing anyway.