OOTS #1055 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ruck]

Ha, Felix keeps his priorities in order!

I thought this might be the first strip we've seen with the crew that doesn't include any Order members in it, but I just noticed Vaarsuvius in panel one (edit: and Belkar in the corner, too. And I just zoomed in and found Invisible Haley as well). No Order members having dialogue, then.

[hroþila]

So I spent like a minute looking for Haley in the first panel. Looking for invisible Haley.

[Peelee]

That control panel is gorgeous.

So I spent like a minute looking for Haley in the first panel. Looking for invisible Haley.

Oh hey, I forgot to check for her since I didn't see her off the bat. Got her in a few seconds after checking specifically for her. Nicely hidden.

[Drake2009]

That one with the ponytail is a real downer...

[kida]

I hope the ship won't crash

[Drake2009]

So I spent like a minute looking for Haley in the first panel. Looking for invisible Haley.

Look to the right of V. You can see her outline shooting 3 giants.

[snowblizz]

They do seem to be more inclined towards fuchsia yes.

Edit: And sadly it appears *I* know how fuchsia is spelled. I blame my mom.

[hroþila]

Look to the right of V. You can see her outline shooting 3 giants.
Yeah, I mean, I saw her, but not before the potential absurdity of what I was doing hit me.

[Tentreto]

I feel a mutiny may occur in the future now. Even the fashion guru is wavering...

[Peelee]

Yeah, I mean, I saw her, but not before the potential absurdity of what I was doing hit me.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm fairly sure Waldo has some invisibility potions on him in some of those puzzles.

[Skull the Troll]

Whelp, time to put down the mutiny. I was worried that belkar was falling behind inthe first panel there, but then later it looks like he is keeping up. Ring of Jumping +20 FTW!

[Basement Cat]

If the gods are fielding their mortal worshippers to aid/stop our heroes then I figure it's just a matter of time before Loki's priestess--Hilgya (was that her name) shows up.

*crosses fingers for luck*

[Ruslan]

Much tension I sense between Andi and Bandana. Betting 10 gp Andi is Bandana's ex, I am.

[Remedy]

Honestly, I still agree with Bandana's logic. Andi is making some pretty wild assumptions about the giants' behavior, and more to the point, the adventurers are cutting a path one way, so it's hard to justify going back where nobody will protect you if they keep attacking.

[Ruslan]

So I spent like a minute looking for Haley in the first panel. Looking for invisible Haley.

Oh, she's there. The leftmost giant hit by V's lightning - Haley's translucent form is right above his head.

[Flying Turtle]

Well the plus side to the mutiny is I'm pretty sure the Order can take them and it's more more experience for the Order. Got to close that level gap with Xykon some how, especially since Xykon now seems to be level grinding at the last gate.

[Vinsfeld]

I loved the perspective on this.

[Caractacus]

New comic is up! Fantastic news! I was actually browsing when it happened for the first time ever in all these years!

Now to actually *read* it... ;)

[arrowed]

So if a mutiny does occur... Roy and Elan are the only two members of the Order on the ship, so they'll have to convince the crew not to turn tail... I can see Roy getting Bandana to side with him, but the rest of the crew? It may well come down to Elan. :elan: In which case :smalleek: or :smallbiggrin: or both.

[pendell]

Neat strip, advances the plot, the crew is looking restive and on the verge of mutiny.

Minor comment: The final fashion joke seemed to come out of nowhere and was too jarring to be funny, at least to me.

Overall comment; Rich does an excellent job of writing funny strips, and he always tries to end with a lighthearted joke at the end. That's good -- but in this case it was forced. Sometimes it's better to not worry about being funny than it is to try to ram in a joke that doesn't fit. I , for one, read OOTS for the characters and for the story, not so much for the humor per se. It's become too ... complex? tragic? ... to be a really slapstick strip.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Psyren]

Elan and Roy are probably the best Stick members to handle a mutiny.

Also, Felix is totally this guy:

http://www.hungergamesdwtc.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Cinna-Katniss.jpg

[rman]

Just wait until the crew get their share of the exp for the encounter. That might change their mind about hanging around the PCs.

[Flying Turtle]

So if a mutiny does occur... Roy and Elan are the only two members of the Order on the ship, so they'll have to convince the crew not to turn tail... I can see Roy getting Bandana to side with him, but the rest of the crew? It may well come down to Elan. :elan: In which case :smalleek: or :smallbiggrin: or both.

Yeah, given their comments back in 1028. I don't think they're going to be very receptive to Roy's inevitable, its the end of the world call to action.

[8BitNinja]

I never knew that there were such colorful people on the Mechanism.

The more you know

[Kantaki]

Felix is great. Always on duty.:smallbiggrin:

But what the other crewmembers are saying sounds awfully close to mutiny.
There is only one solution. Off with their heads!:smallamused:

[Peelee]

Honestly, I still agree with Bandana's logic. Andi is making some pretty wild assumptions about the giants' behavior, and more to the point, the adventurers are cutting a path one way, so it's hard to justify going back where nobody will protect you if they keep attacking.

Well, at the end, it wasn't logic so much as it was taking command. Andi had a reasonable grievance, Bandi gave the reasoning behind her decision, Andi questioned it, and Bandi said, "this isn't a debate." Which is good captaining, I think (willing to explain why she is giving the orders she is, but remaining intragnizent when she sees no reason to change).

[Chei]

Tiny murder Belkar made my day.

Also, hmm, crew starting to boil.

[Black Socks]

Felix always knows just what to say in a situation.

[Quartz]

Where is Roy?

[Murk]

Belkar seems to be falling behind.

Maybe they should just leave him there.

[Basement Cat]

Bandana's decisive (and logical) judgement probably demonstrate why she's in charge of the Mechane and not the chief engineer.

I don't see a mutiny in the works, though. A crew freaking because they're being assaulted by a crowd of giants throwing boulders is only natural, but you don't serve for any length of time on a ship without learning respect for the chain of command--even if Bandana's only a temporary Captain. Aside from the engineer--who's jealous and seems bitter about being passed over for command of the Mechane--the crew doesn't seem to doubt Bandana's leadership.

Especially since the OoTS is paying them handsomely for their time. :smallwink:

[Anarion]

I expect a mutiny. If for no other reason than there's not much point showing all this if the crew is going to just shtig wd go back to their jobs.

[factotum]

If the gods are fielding their mortal worshippers to aid/stop our heroes then I figure it's just a matter of time before Loki's priestess--Hilgya (was that her name) shows up.

Because naturally she's the *only* priestess he has, and despite her having absolutely no reason to be in dwarven lands (given her hatred of dwarven society) she'll just happen to be passing? :smallsigh:

[IDrankWHAT]

Yeah, I mean, I saw her, but not before the potential absurdity of what I was doing hit me.

I got the joke but thank goodness people were just trying to help LOL

[Syncrogti]

Is anyone else reminded of the transporter controls on the Enterprise when they look at panel 7?

[happycrow]

Do the laws of narrative causality now require that giants focus on the engines?

[JumboWheat01]

Bein' a colorblind man myself, I don't really care how their design sense is. Let them where what they want.

[IDrankWHAT]

Well, that's not what I expected to see LOL And seeing Belkar fly through the air with the sliiiiightest of ease was pretty awesome! Although, I also had to look twice for Haley LOL

[Grand Arbiter]

Hee hee. That's a good bit of funny after what's felt like a long day. Thank's Giant!


Is anyone else reminded of the transporter controls on the Enterprise when they look at panel 7?
Sort-of. The sliders feel familiar, but not the rest


Do the laws of narrative causality now require that giants focus on the engines?
Let's hope not, but irony is a cruel mistress.


... now to go back to find Haley for myself.

[Shining Wrath]

Next strip: the Mechane Mutiny? With Andi playing the Maryk role?

Notice also that the adventurers are getting the blame.

OTOH, Chain Lightning remains an awesome spell to drop on a bunch of giants bunched together.

[Shining Wrath]

I spotted Haley easily by looking for dying giants. When Pointy Death Incarnate passes by, giants die.

Also, wondering why no crew members are manning balistae.

[JoeyTheNeko]

here is it, the mutiny of bandanas crew because of andi, at the worst possible time.


hope roy cuts her head off for her stupidity.

[Traab]

You would think a crew that was formed around a gentleman adventurer would be a little braver about charging headlong into danger. Also yeah, the captain has made the call, now its your job to make it work. And as others have said, your entire other option not only requires you to be a sitting duck as you attempt to pivot in a mountain pass and turn around, but also hopes the giants will just stop attacking you AND assumes the flying high level adventurers that are carving a bloody swath through this entire pass dont object strenuously. Which they probably will.

On the other hand, I could also see the party saying, "Fine, forget you gutless wimps, we are close enough to travel on foot, good luck surviving without our backup, losers." and then continue on their merry path of murder and mayhem.

[Peelee]

Also, wondering why no crew members are manning balistae.

They are, first panel. The rear ones don't look like they've fired yet, though.

[Ruck]

If the gods are fielding their mortal worshippers to aid/stop our heroes then I figure it's just a matter of time before Loki's priestess--Hilgya (was that her name) shows up.

*crosses fingers for luck*
I'm still betting no. And the Cleric of Loki from Greysky City won't show up either.


Because naturally she's the *only* priestess he has, and despite her having absolutely no reason to be in dwarven lands (given her hatred of dwarven society) she'll just happen to be passing? :smallsigh:
lol, exactly.


Much tension I sense between Andi and Bandana. Betting 10 gp Andi is Bandana's ex, I am.

I'll take that bet. Andi has been the most strongly opposed to this sidequest the entire arc, for reasons she's explicitly stated. She doesn't need any further hidden motivations.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, I didn't think that the crew would be so delighted by this. At least Felix is willing to focus on what matters.

[ReturnOfTheKing]

Do I detect the seeds of a mutiny here?

[Peelee]

Much tension I sense between Andi and Bandana. Betting 10 gp Andi is Bandana's ex, I am.


I'll take that bet. Andi has been the most strongly opposed to this sidequest the entire arc, for reasons she's explicitly stated. She doesn't need any further hidden motivations.

I'm in as well, against.

[137beth]

They are, first panel. The rear ones don't look like they've fired yet, though.

Maybe the giants broke the rear ones before they could be fired, and we just didn't see the damage occurring?

[Jasdoif]

Andi has been the most strongly opposed to this sidequest the entire arc, for reasons she's explicitly stated.And those reasons have not included Bandana giving her ex's armor to Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html), which I somehow think Andi would have brought up if she was said ex.

[Sniccups]

LOVE the first panel. :smallsmile::smallamused::smallsmile:

[Faramir]

If the gods are fielding their mortal worshippers to aid/stop our heroes then I figure it's just a matter of time before Loki's priestess--Hilgya (was that her name) shows up.

*crosses fingers for luck*

If so it would be to help the Order, since Loki doesn't want the world destroyed

[JumboWheat01]

It would be cool to have a really early side-character show up out of the blue again.

Maybe she could fill in their current dwarf cleric hole.

[foobar1969]

So I spent like a minute looking for Haley in the first panel. Looking for invisible Haley.
If anyone else is having trouble with that:
https://s14.postimg.org/d9x7adaap/oots1055zoom.jpg

[Basement Cat]

Because naturally she's the *only* priestess he has, and despite her having absolutely no reason to be in dwarven lands (given her hatred of dwarven society) she'll just happen to be passing? :smallsigh:

Piffles.

What does logic have to do with anything? :smallbiggrin:

If she shows up this entire forum will have a meltdown from the collective nerdgasms.


If so it would be to help the Order, since Loki doesn't want the world destroyed

That's my thinking, too. She was pretty powerful, even then, and according to Elan's rule of drama she'd have to turn up just as high leveled as the Order's members.

[danielxcutter]

While I'm one of the supporters of the "Hilgya's going to come back this arc" theory, I don't think she'll be making an appearance anytime soon. Maybe she'll come just in the nick of time to prevent the Mechane from being scrapped, but otherwise there'll have to be some build up.

[Sermil]

Ya! The ballista is actually firing!

And V is pulling out the good stuff...

[An Enemy Spy]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.

[danielxcutter]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.

I dunno either, and I'm one of the guys you're talking about lol.

[Kish]

I have a limited degree of understanding of the forum's desire for the Order to have cavalry. Occasionally it happens (e.g., Julio Scoundrel), but most of the time, the Order are the most powerful characters on the field who aren't either fighting against the Order, or offering help that's worse than what they're being helped against.

[E-102 Hanako]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.

Most other minor characters have either been accounted for or were instrumental in story arcs closing. Hilgya is among the most unaccounted of unaccounted for minor characters outright, and that's saying something. Some minor characters were just protagonists of their own story (such as the Order of the Scribble!) but I'm pretty sure not even she is given much in the way of cameos. Likewise, a lot of characters have also been explicitly referred to as dying or having died, or their character arcs are still ongoing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.

This is Durkon's book, and Durkon's resolution with Hilgya can easily be read as hardly a resolution at all, when you are used to certain shape of stories. Therefore, if Durkon is taking centerpiece in the story, it is not an unreasonable assumption that some characters from his past will reappear - causality being the copper piece harlot servicing drama that she is.

I don't think that Hilgya will reappear, mind you, but it is not impossible to understand why some might expect her back, regardless of what logic and plausibility might have to say about it.

Grey Wolf

[2D8HP]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character

:eek:

For shame!

OOTS has no minor character's!

:furious:

[danielxcutter]

This is Durkon's book, and Durkon's resolution with Hilgya can easily be read as hardly a resolution at all, when you are used to certain shape of stories. Therefore, if Durkon is taking centerpiece in the story, it is not an unreasonable assumption that some characters from his past will reappear - causality being the copper piece harlot servicing drama that she is.

I don't think that Hilgya will reappear, mind you, but it is not impossible to understand why some might expect her back, regardless of what logic and plausibility might have to say about it.

Grey Wolf

I think that Hilgya will come back, personally, but otherwise my thoughts exactly.

On a side note, I think that the theme for this arc is betrayal. Paladin Blues was about honor, Don't Split the Party was about teamwork, and Blood Runs In The Family was about, well, family. Betrayal is central in this arc - Bozzok turning Crystal into a sentinent flesh golem could be seen as a form of betrayal, which bit him in the tush when Crystal turned on him, Durkula betrayed the Order, Durkon's resentment of being kicked out by his own church could be seen as feeling that he was betrayed by them, and many people have noted that Andy is not happy with Bandanna being captain, which coupled with this strip means that a mutiny could break out if things go south... does that make sense?

[Shining Wrath]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.

Because her leaving was the "Saddest. Strip. Ever."?

[An Enemy Spy]

:eek:

For shame!

OOTS has no minor character's!

:furious:

Pretty sure Julia is a minor.

[Reathin]

Huh. Figured that the nigh-inevitable Andi-led mutiny was probably going to be AFTER they deal with Durkoff but before they get to the Gate. Maybe not.

Or maybe I'm not a Diviner, so it won't actually be a mutiny. Gotta cover that base too :smalltongue:

[nleseul]

This is Durkon's book, and Durkon's resolution with Hilgya can easily be read as hardly a resolution at all, when you are used to certain shape of stories.

I guess if one is used to the kind of story where everyone has to get shoehorned into a romance, no matter how nonsensical it might be for the characters involved, then it would be obvious that Hilgya must come back, for the feels. Fortunately, OotS doesn't really seem to be that type of story.

Hilgya has served her narrative role, and her arc has gotten all the closure it needs, as far as I'm concerned.

[Manty5]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.

As it happens, Durkon Classic had something to say about that...


:durkon:: Geez, wha be tha chances o' tha??

:elan:: Umm...

:durkon:: Och, right. Like a hunnerd percent, in this comic.



many people have noted that Andy is not happy with Bandanna being captain, which coupled with this strip means that a mutiny could break out if things go south... does that make sense?

Actually, I think Andi's currently upset that things are going north.

[Ruck]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.
Me neither, but on the other hand, I wish we could place bets with the people who do believe on whether or not she would return.


I have a limited degree of understanding of the forum's desire for the Order to have cavalry. Occasionally it happens (e.g., Julio Scoundrel), but most of the time, the Order are the most powerful characters on the field who aren't either fighting against the Order, or offering help that's worse than what they're being helped against.
Indeed, I think it would be a negative thing at this point in the story. I'd written this before I saw your comment, but I'll explain:

Aside from all the other reasons mentioned that it doesn't really make sense for Hilgya to return, one other thing I was thinking about is that in one of the commentaries-- I think it's the Cliffport arc with the Linear Guild in W&XPs-- Rich has said that he didn't bring Hilgya back in because her previous liaison with Durkon would have overshadowed the story he wanted to tell. That's how I feel it would feel if she came back now, too. I see this story as the Order's finally fully coming together as a unit, I see it as the story of Durkon's relationship with Roy, as well as of his relationship with Belkar, and I think having Hilgya in the story would undercut all of those things. "The Order of the Stick is finally a well-oiled team that trusts one another... because they had to get bailed out by an old enemy of theirs" just doesn't sound right.


Most other minor characters have either been accounted for or were instrumental in story arcs closing. Hilgya is among the most unaccounted of unaccounted for minor characters outright, and that's saying something. Some minor characters were just protagonists of their own story (such as the Order of the Scribble!) but I'm pretty sure not even she is given much in the way of cameos. Likewise, a lot of characters have also been explicitly referred to as dying or having died, or their character arcs are still ongoing.
What do you mean by "accounted for"? Lots of characters in the story have left it without dying and have not been seen or mentioned since. Hilgya's not even the only Linear Guild member or the only Cleric of Loki who fits that description.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, I think Andi's currently upset that things are going north.

*groans* I did not expect that. :smallannoyed:

[danielxcutter]

What do you mean by "accounted for"? Lots of characters in the story have left it without dying and have not been seen or mentioned since. Hilgya's not even the only Linear Guild member or the only Cleric of Loki who fits that description.

Oh right, there's Leeky Windstaff, and Pompey as well. I'm still a firm supporter of the "Hilgya's going to come back" theory, but I must admit that this is a good counter to that particular reason. Also, I wouldn't be too disappointed if she's gone for good, just that I'd like to see her again, and there isn't any in-comic evidence that topples the argument either way. Or to put it another way, we can't be sure unless it's officially confirmed, so any opinions or theories are no more than guessing. That includes my own, of course.

[Sandman]

Where is Roy?

He is probably doing his job as a fighter, by securely holding a rope.:smallbiggrin:

[Ruck]

Oh right, there's Leeky Windstaff, and Pompey as well. I'm still a firm supporter of the "Hilgya's going to come back" theory, but I must admit that this is a good counter to that particular reason. Also, I wouldn't be too disappointed if she's gone for good, just that I'd like to see her again, and there isn't any in-comic evidence that topples the argument either way. Or to put it another way, we can't be sure unless it's officially confirmed, so any opinions or theories are no more than guessing. That includes my own, of course.

Well, I don't think there's anything that conclusively proves she can't come back. I just think there needs to be some storytelling logic as to why she would, and why specifically her. And the arguments in favor seem to mostly be based in the desire to see her back rather than in that logic.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I don't think there's anything that conclusively proves she can't come back. I just think there needs to be some storytelling logic as to why she would, and why specifically her. And the arguments in favor seem to mostly be based in the desire to see her back rather than in that logic.

I do want to see her again, since her character is pretty interesting, but true, there isn't much of a real reason for her to come back - yet. To be honest, the first time I mentioned that theory was mostly because I wanted to see what people thought about it - I never expected pages upon pages of endless debate. :smalleek:

[warmachine]

I guess frost giants don't understand physics or engineering. They should aim for the balloon itself. Breach it enough and enough gas will escape to crash the ship. Just need to bang some rocks together to create sharp edges.

[Doctor Witch]

It's a pity there isn't a playground on that mountain. With a giant in it.

[danielxcutter]

It's a pity there isn't a playground on that mountain. With a giant in it.

You know, it would be really funny if there actually was a playground. Wonder if Mr. Burlew's thought of that one?

[Draconi Redfir]

I have no doubt that there will be a mutiny on that ship sooner rather then later, at the worst possible time most likely.

Does raise an odd question as to why all the giants are there though, i'd hardly expect them to be working for Xykon, though I can't think of any other enemy they would be working for. Best guess is that they're just working for themselves, there was a frost-giant demigod in the godsmoot right? Maybe they received a message from him to stop the order from preventing the world's destruction? ... he DID vote destruction right? *checks* Yup! he did! With an ominous "my reasons are my own" to boot!

[Morquard]

I have no doubt that there will be a mutiny on that ship sooner rather then later, at the worst possible time most likely.

Does raise an odd question as to why all the giants are there though, i'd hardly expect them to be working for Xykon, though I can't think of any other enemy they would be working for. Best guess is that they're just working for themselves, there was a frost-giant demigod in the godsmoot right? Maybe they received a message from him to stop the order from preventing the world's destruction? ... he DID vote destruction right? *checks* Yup! he did! With an ominous "my reasons are my own" to boot!

That's the general assumption yes. He organized this ambush somehow.

[Southern Cross]

Probably by contacting one of his clerics.

[HandofShadows]

Man there aren't going to be many frost giants still alive before the end of this. :smalleek: And I hope no mutiny.

[GM_3826]

Mutiny is happening. Odds of Hilgya coming back are low but existent. Wouldn't count on it, but at the same time wouldn't NOT count on it.

[Rift_Wolf]

My guess is there'll be a tipping point for the mutiny; death of a crew member. Remember these aren't high level PCs, and those giants are throwing huge rocks (I'm ignoring the listed damage on those rocks, because it's laughably low)...

[danielxcutter]

My guess is there'll be a tipping point for the mutiny; death of a crew member. Remember these aren't high level PCs, and those giants are throwing huge rocks (I'm ignoring the listed damage on those rocks, because it's laughably low)...

Hilarious to a meatshield like Roy perhaps, but to low-level rogue NPCs it's no joke.

[zimmerwald1915]

Where is Roy?
Somebody fired that ballista in the first panel. Probably a Mechane crewmember, but possibly Roy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I guess if one is used to the kind of story where everyone has to get shoehorned into a romance, no matter how nonsensical it might be for the characters involved, then it would be obvious that Hilgya must come back, for the feels. Fortunately, OotS doesn't really seem to be that type of story.

Wow. Not even close to the story shape I was referring to. But at least you are having fun beating that strawman?

To be even clearer that I thought I was being: Hilgya and Durkon separated because of alignment differences. Durkon's alignment lead him to his current predicament. OotS has very frequently used these kind of "mirror" characters to show how the same situation would be approached from a different alignment, therefore it would make sense to reintroduce Hilgya for that. Or alternatively, the mirror character is Durkon*, and Hilgya is reintroduced to see how Durkon* would handle the relationship with her (presumably leading to a different breakup, since the real problem is that she is Chaotic and both Durkon and Durkon* are Legal). ETA: Or even show how different a Legal Evil and Chaotic Evil priest(ess) can be.

Furthermore, as per WoG, in OotS characters receive their comeuppance by being hoisted by their own petard, and Hilgya has not in any way achieved that. If she were to do so, this is the book in which it most likely would make sense for it to happen.


Hilgya has served her narrative role, and her arc has gotten all the closure it needs, as far as I'm concerned.

So? How does that change that some people disagree with that statement? Should they go, "oh, if nleseul thinks that, I'm clearly in the wrong?". Yes, obviously some readers think the story is closed. Others don't agree. No reason to deride them.

Grey Wolf

[Dr.Zero]

Personally I'd love to see back Hilgya, not because Durkon needs a romance, but for other reasons.
Chekhov's Gunman, to start with: if the order needs some help to defeat Durkula, a character who has already appeared and has a good reason to be there, seems a good choice.
Logic, to continue on: like others said, she is a priest of Loki, a dwarf to boost, and reasonably a level comparable to Durkon, if she kept questing.


both Durkon and Durkon* are Legal

I've so many problems to see Durkula as Lawful.
So many!

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Aside the loyalty to Hel, I see his love of deceptions and lies (worse, his gloating in deceiving and lying) terribly far from Lawful. If I must give Durkula an alignment, it is NE (btw Hel should be NE, too). But this, iirc, is a discussion which comes up ciclically. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

Personally I'd love to see back Hilgya, not because Durkon needs a romance, but for other reasons.
Chekhov's Gunman, to start with: if the order needs some help to defeat Durkula, a character who has already appeared and has a good reason to be there, seems a good choice.
Logic, to continue on: like others said, she is a priest of Loki, a dwarf to boost, and reasonably a level comparable to Durkon, if she kept questing.

Hilgya has good reason to not be in the area. She hates everything the dwarves stand for. She explicitly left the Dwarven Lands because she hated it there. Why would she ever voluntarily go back?

[Lombard]

Mmm I'm thinking maybe something along the mauve-heather spectrum for the accent pieces, some gold jewelry and an eggplant belt would really bring it all together. I've dressed my wife many times. :smalltongue:

[Dr.Zero]

Hilgya has good reason to not be in the area. She hates everything the dwarves stand for. She explicitly left the Dwarven Lands because she hated it there. Why would she ever voluntarily go back?

Depends on the meaning of "voluntarily" for a cleric.

It can goes down to as much voluntarily as: "Mortal! Thou are one of my most powerful cleric (and she can quite be, since she probably was near Durkon in level, and Durkon is at HP level) I want thou to stop Hel's minion. By the way, the aforementioned minion is a vampire using the body thou played the rumba with, to much disgust for me and my hated brother Thor. I needed an anti-vomiting treatment, just saying. So, better thou amend for thy sins and stop him!"


Then there is the chance that the speech made by Durkon convinced her about the true dwarven lifestyle of suffering, but I'm not willing to bet on this.

[Keltest]

Depends on the meaning of "voluntarily" for a cleric.

It can goes down to as much voluntarily as: "Mortal! Thou are one of my most powerful cleric (and she can quite be, since she probably was near Durkon in level, and Durkon is at HP level) I want thou to stop Hel's minion. By the way, the aforementioned minion is a vampire using the body thou played the rumba with, to much disgust for me and my hated brother Thor. I needed an anti-vomiting treatment, just saying. So, better thou amend for thy sins and stop him!"


Then there is the chance that the speech made by Durkon convinced her about the true dwarven lifestyle of suffering, but I'm not willing to bet on this.

Durkon has leveled up several times in between meeting Hilgya and becoming a Vampire. Plus, powerful or not, unless she is in the immediate area, which she is pretty much guaranteed not to be, she still isn't the best suited for the job if she cant actually get to the order.

[Draconi Redfir]

Hilgya has good reason to not be in the area. She hates everything the dwarves stand for. She explicitly left the Dwarven Lands because she hated it there. Why would she ever voluntarily go back?

my best guess would be a simple one; Because Durkon told her too.

No no not in any sort of dumb "patriarchy" way, but the speech durkon gave her could have changed her mind, or perhaps she merely gave up on being outside the dwarven lands knowing the one she loved "hated" her for not being in the Dwarven lands. Heck I could easily see her going back there and continuing to attempt to assasonate her husband, likely even succeeding and becoming the head of her own household. She'd have more power, more leeway, and more freedom to do what she wants.

She's evil after all, I wouldn't put it past her to do what she can to break free from the traditions she hates while remaining in Dwarven territory.

[Dr.Zero]

Durkon has leveled up several times in between meeting Hilgya and becoming a Vampire. Plus, powerful or not, unless she is in the immediate area, which she is pretty much guaranteed not to be, she still isn't the best suited for the job if she cant actually get to the order.

If Haley's nemesis could level up playing canasta, just because she was her nemesis, it doesn't seem such a deal to think that she has leveled up questing with another party, exactly like she was doing before meeting Durkon (and following Loki's orders, which at the time were to steal the talisman).

For the distance, two words: wind walk.
Is 60mph faster or slower than the mechane? No idea. To me it seems pretty fast for a quasi medieval setting.
Was she closer or farther than the Mechane when it started to travel? No idea.
But the frost giant -afaiu- don't live on that mountains neither, still they managed to reach the place decently fast, just walking.

And finally, she is the only one of the Linear Guild who didn't appear a second time (ok, Yukyuk, too, but he had... good reasons... and his son took his place).

[Nightcanon]

Love the way that even in tiny scale, Belkar's homicidal maniac grin is clearly visible...

[Agnostik]

Felix will get his wish when KING GIANTS show up. With golden crowns and everything.

[Ranzear]

Oh geez, I just realized how stylish everyone on the Mechane's crew is...

[Sermil]

My guess is there'll be a tipping point for the mutiny; death of a crew member. Remember these aren't high level PCs, and those giants are throwing huge rocks (I'm ignoring the listed damage on those rocks, because it's laughably low)...

Please don't be Felix that dies, please don't be Felix that dies...

Ah, heck, it's going to be Felix, isn't it? There's three clear named characters, one's the leader of the mutiny (Andi), one's the main opposition to the mutiny (Bandana), so that leaves one person to die and trigger the mutiny...

[Finagle]

You'd think at least the misses would be hitting the gas bag. All they need is one hole and the ship will go down. That is a very specific level of specificity: hit the boat, but not the engines, and avoid the gas bag.

I suppose there aren't any D&D rules for where misses go, so the author is off the hook. LOL just kidding the author doesn't write punchlines according to D&D rules any more. Except when he does. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html)

Going backwards would in fact be easier, as the giants that way have already been killed and the path would be much clearer than going ahead.

Faced with certain mutiny, the substitute captain comes up with the single line that quiets the crew and puts them back to work: "We're not just doing it for money...We're doing it for a ****load of money!"

[Kantaki]

You'd think at least the misses would be hitting the gas bag. All they need is one hole and the ship will go down. That is a very specific level of specificity: hit the boat, but not the engines, and avoid the gas bag.

I suppose there aren't any D&D rules for where misses go, so the author is off the hook. LOL just kidding the author doesn't write punchlines according to D&D rules any more. Except when he does. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html)

Going backwards would in fact be easier, as the giants that way have already been killed and the path would be much clearer than going ahead.

Faced with certain mutiny, the substitute captain comes up with the single line that quiets the crew and puts them back to work: "We're not just doing it for money...We're doing it for a ****load of money!"

I think the engines or the balloon would be critical hits.
A miss definitely shouldn't damage a integral part of the airship (like the balloon), because then it wouldn't be a miss.

And would going the other way be easier?
First they would have to turn- meaning they are sitting ducks for a while and then they would still be in range of the living giants- and worse they would expose the enignes- the one part they really don't want to get damaged -to the guys trying to bring them down. And there's no guarantee the Order will help (or let) them to get away.
Going forward sounds much safer to me.
Not to mention that they only get paid if go forwards. If they run they can pay the damages out of their own pockets.

[wumpus]

I guess if one is used to the kind of story where everyone has to get shoehorned into a romance, no matter how nonsensical it might be for the characters involved, then it would be obvious that Hilgya must come back, for the feels. Fortunately, OotS doesn't really seem to be that type of story.

Hilgya has served her narrative role, and her arc has gotten all the closure it needs, as far as I'm concerned.

Since when? The linear guild carefully matches an opposite to each player, and there exist specific "named antagonists" such as Crystal. OOTS might not follow the romantic rules of a Jane Austin novel, but there are many specific NPCs that seem to exist for each character, and a romantic link is likely one (although Hilgya is more likely as written out of the picture as Inkyrius).

I'd say that the issue isn't that each character isn't shoehorned into a romance (they *have* been, although I suspect Belkar's is either Belkar or Mr. Scruffy and not any of his one moment stands). The issue is that each character has the choice to leave it, and not necessarily be instagranted another.

[Keltest]

Since when? The linear guild carefully matches an opposite to each player, and there exist specific "named antagonists" such as Crystal. OOTS might not follow the romantic rules of a Jane Austin novel, but there are many specific NPCs that seem to exist for each character, and a romantic link is likely one (although Hilgya is more likely as written out of the picture as Inkyrius).

I'd say that the issue isn't that each character isn't shoehorned into a romance (they *have* been, although I suspect Belkar's is either Belkar or Mr. Scruffy and not any of his one moment stands). The issue is that each character has the choice to leave it, and not necessarily be instagranted another.

If by "carefully" you mean "grasps at whatever tenuous straws they can" then sure.

Also, Elan and Haley are currently dating fellow PCs, V's current lack of a romantic partner is a plot point, Belkar has never been indicated to actually be romantic, and Durkon has had exactly one romantic encounter in his life, which ended horribly.

[JumboWheat01]

Belkar has never been indicated to actually be romantic,

What're you talking about? Belkar is so OBVIOUSLY in love with his job.

[Ruck]

Wow. Not even close to the story shape I was referring to. But at least you are having fun beating that strawman?

To be even clearer that I thought I was being: Hilgya and Durkon separated because of alignment differences. Durkon's alignment lead him to his current predicament. OotS has very frequently used these kind of "mirror" characters to show how the same situation would be approached from a different alignment, therefore it would make sense to reintroduce Hilgya for that. Or alternatively, the mirror character is Durkon*, and Hilgya is reintroduced to see how Durkon* would handle the relationship with her (presumably leading to a different breakup, since the real problem is that she is Chaotic and both Durkon and Durkon* are Legal). ETA: Or even show how different a Legal Evil and Chaotic Evil priest(ess) can be.

Furthermore, as per WoG, in OotS characters receive their comeuppance by being hoisted by their own petard, and Hilgya has not in any way achieved that. If she were to do so, this is the book in which it most likely would make sense for it to happen.
Or, Durkon rejecting her was her comeuppance, and it was something she brought on herself (by her rejection of the rules and traditions Durkon holds dear-- ironically, the same rejection which caused her to leave Dwarven lands and gave her a chance to meet Durkon in the first place).


Since when? The linear guild carefully matches an opposite to each player, and there exist specific "named antagonists" such as Crystal. OOTS might not follow the romantic rules of a Jane Austin novel, but there are many specific NPCs that seem to exist for each character, and a romantic link is likely one (although Hilgya is more likely as written out of the picture as Inkyrius).

I'd say that the issue isn't that each character isn't shoehorned into a romance (they *have* been, although I suspect Belkar's is either Belkar or Mr. Scruffy and not any of his one moment stands). The issue is that each character has the choice to leave it, and not necessarily be instagranted another.

Given that we saw a poster of Inkyrius within the last ten strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html), I think it's far less likely they are written out of the story than it is that Hilgya is.

[jdb-44]

Xykon now seems to be level grinding at the last gate.

This frightens me. How much more powerful can he get? I'm not as familiar with the newer editions of D&D...what kinds of new spells could he get?

[Dr.Zero]

This frightens me. How much more powerful can he get?


I'd dare to say: not enough to win, anyway. :smallwink:


I'm not as familiar with the newer editions of D&D...what kinds of new spells could he get?

Me neither, but I don't think that they will be updated to 5e.
Or maybe they will, but at the end of the comic, to start new adventures (which we will not see).

[Xihirli]

Is 60mph faster or slower than the mechane?

Probably slower, Veldrina probably knows Wind Walk and wasn't using it to go to the 'moot. And we KNOW that Greg can cast Wind Walk, and he still wanted to follow the pilgrimage "in a very fast ship!" instead of just WWing there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Probably slower, Veldrina probably knows Wind Walk
She does not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html).

GW

[Keltest]

She does not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html).

GW

Though Wrecan was skeptical that even at top speed it would be enough to get them there on time.

[JumboWheat01]

This frightens me. How much more powerful can he get? I'm not as familiar with the newer editions of D&D...what kinds of new spells could he get?

Well, we know-ish that Xykon is low-mid 20s, and while the Epic Level Handbook for 3.5 (which this comic follows-ish,) only goes up to 30, it explicitly states that one could continue the trend even further. And more levels, especially for a caster, means more spell save DC, more chances for stat improvements (in turn allowing for more spell save DC and more spell slots,) and of course, more Epic Spells. You can never have enough Epic Spells.

So there's plenty more powerful he can become.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Good work, crew! Excellent balance checks! Way to keep the ship running! You working-class NPCs who keep the quests running on time are truly the real heroes of this story. Until the narrative moves on and forgets you, I mean.


Ha, Felix keeps his priorities in order!
...Beat me to it.


So if a mutiny does occur... Roy and Elan are the only two members of the Order on the ship, so they'll have to convince the crew not to turn tail... I can see Roy getting Bandana to side with him, but the rest of the crew? It may well come down to Elan. :elan: In which case :smalleek: or :smallbiggrin: or both.
"Don't worry, Roy, I'll cheer them up!"
"I think I'll take my chances with the giants."


Do the laws of narrative causality now require that giants focus on the engines?
I'm pretty sure that the lowest energy state of a punchline is at the end of the comic, and that one based on such irony will be placed as close to the initiating statement as possible. Hence, the probability of that joke existing in relation to the statements in this comic is already very low by next comic and lower each additional comic.
Not to mention that the Mechane always gets to its destination in the nick of time. That should at least impede humor which prevents it from doing so.




The rear ones don't look like they've fired yet, though.
Or at least, they didn't fire in the time captured by the panel. Given how long it must take to reload, since there doesn't seem to be an obvious reloading port nearby...


And those reasons have not included Bandana giving her ex's armor to Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html), which I somehow think Andi would have brought up if she was said ex.
Also, Bandana's ex was "curvy, like [Haley]," and Andi seems to have a figure more similar to Bandana's than Haley's.


My guess is there'll be a tipping point for the mutiny; death of a crew member. Remember these aren't high level PCs, and those giants are throwing huge rocks (I'm ignoring the listed damage on those rocks, because it's laughably low)...
Remember, this is a world where standing in a burning building only deals 1d6 damage per round, and this was commented on (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html).


Mutiny?
I'd be surprised if there was a mutiny...but not shocked.


On a side note, I think that the theme for this arc is betrayal. Paladin Blues was about honor, Don't Split the Party was about teamwork, and Blood Runs In The Family was about, well, family. Betrayal is central in this arc - Bozzok turning Crystal into a sentinent flesh golem could be seen as a form of betrayal, which bit him in the tush when Crystal turned on him, Durkula betrayed the Order, Durkon's resentment of being kicked out by his own church could be seen as feeling that he was betrayed by them, and many people have noted that Andy is not happy with Bandanna being captain, which coupled with this strip means that a mutiny could break out if things go south... does that make sense?
Eh, I suppose. But just because a book has a certain theme doesn't mean that everything in the book is centered around it.




I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.
The crazier the WMG, the better you'll feel if when you're proved right.


:eek:
For shame!
OOTS has no minor character's!
:furious:
But surely even you have to admit, it has some miner characters?


I guess if one is used to the kind of story where everyone has to get shoehorned into a romance, no matter how nonsensical it might be for the characters involved, then it would be obvious that Hilgya must come back, for the feels. Fortunately, OotS doesn't really seem to be that type of story.
To some people, all stories are (or at least should be) that type. Exhibit A: Anyone who ships Ramsay Snow.




I've so many problems to see Durkula as Lawful. So many!
-snip-
So, lawful people have to be honest. Gotcha.
I don't want to get into this argument again, so I'll leave it there.


This frightens me. How much more powerful can he get? I'm not as familiar with the newer editions of D&D...what kinds of new spells could he get?
Well, he could research more epic spells, but that seems unlikely. More likely, all we have to worry about is more spell slots, more magic items, and maybe piling more metamagic into a single 9th-level spell.


Me neither, but I don't think that they will be updated to 5e.
I'd be surprised. They've been following 3.5 rules as much as 4th or Next rules, if not more—and not being able to sneak attack, for instance, giants Belkar's in melee with without invisibility sounds pretty 3.5-ey to me. To say nothing of the 3.5-only-if-I'm-not-mistaken Favored Soul who showed up less than 70 strips ago, or how Xykon still knows epic spells.

[danielxcutter]

If Haley's nemesis could level up playing canasta, just because she was her nemesis, it doesn't seem such a deal to think that she has leveled up questing with another party, exactly like she was doing before meeting Durkon (and following Loki's orders, which at the time were to steal the talisman).

For the distance, two words: wind walk.
Is 60mph faster or slower than the mechane? No idea. To me it seems pretty fast for a quasi medieval setting.
Was she closer or farther than the Mechane when it started to travel? No idea.
But the frost giant -afaiu- don't live on that mountains neither, still they managed to reach the place decently fast, just walking.

And finally, she is the only one of the Linear Guild who didn't appear a second time (ok, Yukyuk, too, but he had... good reasons... and his son took his place).

Pompey and Leeky only appeared once too.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Aside the loyalty to Hel, I see his love of deceptions and lies (worse, his gloating in deceiving and lying) terribly far from Lawful. If I must give Durkula an alignment, it is NE (btw Hel should be NE, too). But this, iirc, is a discussion which comes up cyclically.

The vampire summoned up a spiked devil. He's LE.


Hilgya has good reason to not be in the area. She hates everything the dwarves stand for. She explicitly left the Dwarven Lands because she hated it there. Why would she ever voluntarily go back?

Who said voluntarily? She's a cleric, a glorified errand girl for the gods, as Roy (kinda) said.

More on point, someone will need to cast Resurrection on Durkon at the end of this, and I suspect most of the high level clerics are back at the moot.


Mmm I'm thinking maybe something along the mauve-heather spectrum for the accent pieces, some gold jewelry and an eggplant belt would really bring it all together. I've dressed my wife many times. :smalltongue:

And undressed her many more, if my memories of married life are anything to go by.:smallwink:


Pompey and Leeky only appeared once too.

We last saw them when they decided to leave Nale to his fate and set out on their own.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Me neither, but I don't think that they will be updated to 5e.
Or maybe they will, but at the end of the comic, to start new adventures (which we will not see).

By the time this comic finally reaches its conclusion, we'll probably be on 6e minimum, maybe 7e -- unless x.5 editions occur in the meantime of course.

[Dr.Zero]

By the time this comic finally reaches its conclusion, we'll probably be on 6e minimum, maybe 7e -- unless x.5 editions occur in the meantime of course.

Haha. True. :)
Honestly, the more it lasts, the better.
I will be terribly sad when this is over.



The vampire summoned up a spiked devil. He's LE.


While I didn't think of it, now that you make me notice, I am not sure it is relevant.

I always ruled the fact that a cleric cannot summon a creature of opposite of his (or his deity) alignment following the one-step rule. So NE (both Durkula and Hel) can summon LE, CE, TN, NE.
This of course doesn't mean that I am right, indeed now I just wonder if I was wrong the whole time. :smallbiggrin:



Who said voluntarily? She's a cleric, a glorified errand girl for the gods, as Roy (kinda) said.

More on point, someone will need to cast Resurrection on Durkon at the end of this, and I suspect most of the high level clerics are back at the moot.


The resurrection is a good point. They could have some other very high level cleric, but why add some other characters when using her could add some drama?


Pompey and Leeky only appeared once too.

Twice, actually, iirc. During the fight, and some time later, in some kind of: "Screw this, I'm out of here." joke.

Ah, found it, thanks to the wiki! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html


Probably slower, Veldrina probably knows Wind Walk and wasn't using it to go to the 'moot. And we KNOW that Greg can cast Wind Walk, and he still wanted to follow the pilgrimage "in a very fast ship!" instead of just WWing there.

You're right.
Technically, Veldrina was worried they were late even using the ship (when they did reach the godsmoot) but that was probably just a comedy scene, since they embraced using the ship as a better solution than wind walking.

(Useless because no one says that the Mechane works like our real ariships, it is just a research I did out of curiosity)

Wikipedia gives a 64mph as maximum speed for a zeppelin built for war purposes in 1916.
The book of world records has 69.6 mph as maximum speed ever measured for an airship. But it is noted that probably some models could reach near 90mph (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/fastest-speed-for-an-airship)

So this is a case where making the Mechane faster doesn't require magic. :smallbiggrin:



Edit: Now I realized that this makes their choice to let V, Haley and Belkar clean the ground (and moving at their speed) probably strategically unsound. Moving at maximum speed probably they would take way less rounds of damages compared to moving at 1/10th (or less) of said speed, while the heroes kill the giants. So, meh, if Andi's plan is to go back at maximum speed, that is way better than moving forward slowly -this even taking in account some rounds lost for the change of directions. There are less giants, they will use waaaaay less rounds to get out of the danger zone, and so she has a very good point.

[Peelee]

Edit: Now I realized that this makes their choice to let V, Haley and Belkar clean the ground (and moving at their speed) probably strategically unsound. Moving at maximum speed probably they would take way less rounds of damages compared to moving at 1/10th (or less) of said speed, while the heroes kill the giants. So, meh, if Andi's plan is to go back at maximum speed, that is way better than moving forward slowly -this even taking in account some rounds lost for the change of directions. There are less giants, they will use waaaaay less rounds to get out of the danger zone, and so she has a very good point.
Fewer, not less. Quick and dirty rule, if it's a countable, use fewer, if it's not, use less. For example, fewer dollars, less money.

Anyway. You're assuming a lot here. That the Mechane is going at max speed, instead of max safe speed for the area they're in, and that they slowed for the ground team. Neither has been indicated in the comic.

[Kish]

Andi also critically doesn't have a point in that if they go back the WORLD ENDS. All these "well, as long as you only look at it from her extremely narrow perspective, her extremely narrow perspective makes sense" arguments are...narrow--it's very much not to her credit that she's thrown "we're trying to save the world" overboard as less important than scoring points against Bandana.

[Quibblicious]

I will never understand this forum's obsession with a minor character who disappeared from the story twelve years ago and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.

Apparently there has been insufficient dwarven intercourse in the strip.

I think that'd be off the table since it apparently turns even the stomachs of gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html).

Q

[danielxcutter]

Andi also critically doesn't have a point in that if they go back the WORLD ENDS. All these "well, as long as you only look at it from her extremely narrow perspective, her extremely narrow perspective makes sense" arguments are...narrow--it's very much not to her credit that she's thrown "we're trying to save the world" overboard as less important than scoring points against Bandana.

Does the crew even know that the world's going to end, as in literally and completely? For all we know, they might not know much more about the Order's plans than "saving the world" and "kicking Evil in the tushy".

[factotum]

Who said voluntarily? She's a cleric, a glorified errand girl for the gods, as Roy (kinda) said.


But she still has to be reasonably close by in order to get onto the scene, and she has no reason to *be* close by. That's the point here...if Loki wants to send a cleric to help out, why would Hilgya be the closest one?

[danielxcutter]

But she still has to be reasonably close by in order to get onto the scene, and she has no reason to *be* close by. That's the point here...if Loki wants to send a cleric to help out, why would Hilgya be the closest one?

Draaaaaaaaaaaama.

Plus I'm sure she'll have a more legit reason if she does show up. Mind, I'm not making any bets, just stating that it's not entirely impossible.

[Quibblicious]

You'd think at least the misses would be hitting the gas bag.

Tarquin's not even on the ship...

Q

[Quibblicious]

...

I bet you're practically drooling at the thought of undead giants...

Q
Just an observation...

[danielxcutter]

Tarquin's not even on the ship...

Q

Don't get it. :smallannoyed:

[Kish]

Come again? You're asking if they know the world is going to end, as distinct from knowing the Order is saving the world? :smallconfused:

[danielxcutter]

Come again? You're asking if they know the world is going to end, as distinct from knowing the Order is saving the world? :smallconfused:

As in "world will be literally destroyed" vs. "stop villain's plan to [insert general villain plan here]". I'm sure they've been in quite a few adventures with Julio that had the fate of the world in the balance, but none of them would have resulted in a class 8 Apocalypse How (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow) upon failure.

[Quibblicious]

Don't get it. :smallannoyed:

It was a stretch... Tarquin has Elan's and Nale's propensity for speeches.

Vaarsuvius might have been a better choice for the joke...

Q

[Kantaki]

I bet you're practically drooling at the thought of undead giants...

Q
Just an observation...

Lies and Slander!

For starters the size makes them way too impractical in the vast majority of situations.:smalltongue:

I mean there is what? Sieges, more sieges, even more sieges.
And lugging great loads through the wilderness...

Oh, I just had an idea. A mobile fortress pulled by a couple of giant zombies. Zombie giants.
Makes it harder for potential enemies to find me.
The only question is where I can get a fortress on wheels. That would actually work I mean.
Workforce isn't a problem, but the construction itself? Challenging...:smallamused:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Dr.Zero]

Fewer, not less. Quick and dirty rule, if it's a countable, use fewer, if it's not, use less. For example, fewer dollars, less money.


Thanks.
Not that I didn't know that rule, theoretically; it is that, practically, remembering it at the right moment is a completely different matter. :smallredface:



Anyway. You're assuming a lot here. That the Mechane is going at max speed, instead of max safe speed for the area they're in, and that they slowed for the ground team. Neither has been indicated in the comic.

The safe speed is a good point. If the pass is particularly narrow, I guess they cannot fly using top speed.

Still going deeper, if they must move only at slow speed, seems a particularly poor choice, if seen from the crew's POV.

If the giants are able to move freely on the mountain path, then the ones left behind can follow the ship (they are faster than Belkar, and close enough in speed to V and H); if they are unable to move freely, then the heroes could have just cleared the path with the Mechane following them from a safe distance, without leaving giants behind, able to damage the ship.

In both cases asking to the heroes to clear the path before going on (and in the meantime, going back) was a reasonable request from the crew (and it would have been even more reasonable to do that from the start, instead of going on after the first hits).

Being paid 100gp (iirc) is of little use for the crew, if they die here. So, yes, all in all, Bandana doesn't seem to have the crew's best interests at heart, at least from what the crew can assume (see next point).

@The Apocalypse debate:
The crew made a very clear point about the fact that for them this is another "Apocalypse of the week" situation.
Not differently from Tarquin (probably because Julio follows the same genre savvy attitude), they "know" someone will save the day, and that if they play the heroes for too long, they risk to become instead the red shirts.
So this argument is not relevant for them. The apocalypse of the week will be resolved by someone. The only thing mattering is being still alive when this will happen.

[Ruck]

Twice, actually, iirc. During the fight, and some time later, in some kind of: "Screw this, I'm out of here." joke.

Ah, found it, thanks to the wiki! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html
I don't think a one-panel coda to a plotline counts as a "second appearance." No more than it would count to say Hilgya "appeared twice" because technically she disappeared for a while in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Sir_Norbert]

But what that strip does do is provide closure for the pair, and let the reader know that we shouldn't expect to see them again.

[Rift_Wolf]

Counter argument to Hilgya naysayers: Rich bought back Zztdri.
(I personally don't think Hilgya will be coming back again, but you have to admit it's a compelling argument)

[Kish]

That's a good counterargument to "Rich couldn't bring back Hilgya if he wanted to"--but I don't think anyone's advancing that argument in the first place (rather, that there is currently no reason to think he'll ever want to).

(Does BRitF have anything relevant to say about Zz'dtri coming back, incidentally? My thought is that it happened because Rich needed a Linear Guild arcane spellcaster, but the plans he had for the role weren't big enough to justify coming up with an actually new character, so why not recycle the removed-but-not-dead character from the Guild's first appearance; but BRitF may contradict this.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

But she still has to be reasonably close by in order to get onto the scene, and she has no reason to *be* close by. That's the point here...if Loki wants to send a cleric to help out, why would Hilgya be the closest one?

Once you get access to Word of Recall, wherever you are, you're the closest one to the problem if your deity so chooses.

[8BitNinja]

I bet you're practically drooling at the thought of undead giants...

Q
Just an observation...

Someone said undead giants

I already got Turn Undead prepped

[jidasfire]

(Does BRitF have anything relevant to say about Zz'dtri coming back, incidentally? My thought is that it happened because Rich needed a Linear Guild arcane spellcaster, but the plans he had for the role weren't big enough to justify coming up with an actually new character, so why not recycle the removed-but-not-dead character from the Guild's first appearance; but BRitF may contradict this.)

Actually there was a good reason to bring back Zz'dtri in particular in that book, though it was more about V than Z. The previous time they fought, V only won through a comedic technicality. It seemed to me like Z's return was designed to show that V had progressed in terms of strategy and spellcasting acumen. Zz'dtri was never an important character in his own right per se, but in that instance, what he helped demonstrate in Vaarsuvius was relevant.

[Morquard]

Actually there was a good reason to bring back Zz'dtri in particular in that book, though it was more about V than Z. The previous time they fought, V only won through a comedic technicality. It seemed to me like Z's return was designed to show that V had progressed in terms of strategy and spellcasting acumen. Zz'dtri was never an important character in his own right per se, but in that instance, what he helped demonstrate in Vaarsuvius was relevant.

I agree. Z was build to counter V perfectly. If V had used his old tactic of "hit it with the best magic till it breaks" he'd have lost. Hell he was on the best way there. It was only when V stopped thinking like that, that he was able to turn the fight around.

It was to show that V has changed and how much.

[Keltest]

That's a good counterargument to "Rich couldn't bring back Hilgya if he wanted to"--but I don't think anyone's advancing that argument in the first place (rather, that there is currently no reason to think he'll ever want to).

(Does BRitF have anything relevant to say about Zz'dtri coming back, incidentally? My thought is that it happened because Rich needed a Linear Guild arcane spellcaster, but the plans he had for the role weren't big enough to justify coming up with an actually new character, so why not recycle the removed-but-not-dead character from the Guild's first appearance; but BRitF may contradict this.)

Yes. Rich needed an arcane caster for the Linear Guild and simultaneously wanted to avoid further dragging out the story with exposition about yet another new one shot character for the soon-to-be-defunct linear guild. Simply put, Z was convenient in a lot of ways that Hilgya really is not.

[Yendor]

Actually there was a good reason to bring back Zz'dtri in particular in that book, though it was more about V than Z. The previous time they fought, V only won through a comedic technicality. It seemed to me like Z's return was designed to show that V had progressed in terms of strategy and spellcasting acumen. Zz'dtri was never an important character in his own right per se, but in that instance, what he helped demonstrate in Vaarsuvius was relevant.

Yeah, that's pretty much what the commentary says. Not having to waste time establishing a new character was a secondary concern.

[Kish]

Yeah, that's pretty much what the commentary says. Not having to waste time establishing a new character was a secondary concern.
Thanks for the information.

[Quibblicious]

Lies and Slander!

For starters the size makes them way too impractical in the vast majority of situations.:smalltongue:

I mean there is what? Sieges, more sieges, even more sieges.
And lugging great loads through the wilderness...

Oh, I just had an idea. A mobile fortress pulled by a couple of giant zombies. Zombie giants.
Makes it harder for potential enemies to find me.
The only question is where I can get a fortress on wheels. That would actually work I mean.
Workforce isn't a problem, but the construction itself? Challenging...:smallamused:

Maybe you could "recruit" some cloud giants to make you a floating fortress...

Q

[Quibblicious]

Someone said undead giants

I already got Turn Undead prepped

But did you get the super-sized Big Gulp version of it?

A medium sized just ain't gonna do the job...

Q

[factotum]

Draaaaaaaaaaaama.

Not really seeing the drama about it, to be honest. If Durkula were still on board and she were faced with what was apparently her dead boyfriend there'd be some drama potential, maybe.

[Dr.Zero]

Not really seeing the drama about it, to be honest. If Durkula were still on board and she were faced with what was apparently her dead boyfriend there'd be some drama potential, maybe.

Comparing Hilgya, who managed to move on with her life ignoring the "stupid dwarven rules", with Durkon, who instead respected those rules, even if hating them, is some drama.

Needing her help to resurrect Durkon would add some drama.

Durkon forced to face the fact that his society if full of **** about a lot of stuff (I don't even want to begin talking about the Lawful Idiot first dwarf king) and that maybe -evil as much as Hilgya might be, and with Ivan being as much as nice as he might have been- she had the right to run away from a marriage she didn't want in the first place, is some drama.

Summarizing: admitting that the dwarf's way is not necessarily a good way, may add some drama.
And might even be considered a good moment to have some character growth. :smallwink:

[Peelee]

Comparing Hilgya, who managed to move on with her life ignoring the "stupid dwarven rules", with Durkon, who instead respected those rules, even if hating them, is some drama.

Needing her help to resurrect Durkon would add some drama.

Durkon forced to face the fact that his society if full of **** about a lot of stuff (I don't even want to begin talking about the Lawful Idiot first dwarf king) and that maybe -evil as much as Hilgya might be, and with Ivan being as much as nice as he might have been- she had the right to run away from a marriage she didn't want in the first place, is some drama.

Summarizing: admitting that the dwarf's way is not necessarily a good way, may add some drama.
And might even be considered a good moment to have some character growth. :smallwink:

Yeah! Those people are different from us, and are wrong.

[Dr.Zero]

Yeah! Those people are different from us, and are wrong.

More to the point: those people forced a woman to marry someone against her will, and yes, they are wrong. :smallwink:

Edit: and just to avoid real life references, they are wrong even according to alignment descriptions. :smallbiggrin:


"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others.

Bold mine. If forcing someone in a marriage (which, means sex and whatever) is not oppressing, then I don't know...

So, they are wrong even by RAW. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

Hilgya, when last seen, didn't like dwarven customs and had gravely offended by leaving her husband. If Hilgya is in the dwarven lands, it might be because she had a change of heart after leaving Durkon, repented in some fashion, and is now trying to be a good dwarf even though her heart's not in it.

And then Greg finds her and vampirizes her, just to torment poor Durkon.

[KorvinStarmast]

More to the point: those people forced a woman to marry someone against her will, and yes, they are wrong. :smallwink: From your non comic point of view, sure, human.
They are dwarves, in comic, and for dwarves they are right.

Like the strip, not surprised Andi the whining malcontent is playing true to form. Rooting for Bandana to lay a little leadership in that direction, though I am not keen on (and doubt Rich is keen on) the old maritime tradition of keel hauling or flogging. Would not fit the comic, but it would fit the narrative.

[Peelee]

More to the point: those people forced a woman to marry someone against her will, and yes, they are wrong. :smallwink:

So, there's one thing. You said they are wrong on a lot of things. What other things?

[Dr.Zero]

From your non comic point of view, sure, human.
They are dwarves, in comic, and for dwarves they are right.

From their own point of view, even paladins were right to destroy goblins' villages.
My uneducated guess is that even in the case of the dwarven, the comic will point out that not all the ones who call themselves lawful good are actually a model to follow.


So, there's one thing. You said they are wrong on a lot of things. What other things?

The fact that a HP can kick out a person, practically letting their relatives believe he died (iirc) and leaving him in the wild with not enough resources to survive more than a week (again iirc), without an explanation neither to the person nor to said (and ill) relatives, and without even letting him say goodbye, doesn't sound too great to me, neither.

[davidbofinger]

More to the point: those people forced a woman to marry someone against her will, and yes, they are wrong. :smallwink:

To be precise, a female dwarf with a history of deception, a servant of the god of trickery, told Durkon they had done that.

On the other hand, Durkon didn't seem all that surprised by it, which suggests it might be common.

On the third hand Durkon was more interested in what she should given she was married than how she got married.

Anyway there's some room for doubt even if it's strongly suggestive. Unless there's Word of Giant on this.

[Dr.Zero]

On the other hand, Durkon didn't seem all that surprised by it, which suggests it might be common.

On the third hand Durkon was more interested in what she should given she was married than how she got married.


These would have been my points (the first for sure, the second only if I understood it right :smallbiggrin:) if someone said: "Maybe it is not common in dwarwen society and it was just her family members to be jerkasses!"

[Quartz]

How is Belkar going to catch up with the party and the Mechane? He's on the wrong mountain.

And I really like the art in this strip.

[Keltest]

The fact that a HP can kick out a person, practically letting their relatives believe he died (iirc) and leaving him in the wild with not enough resources to survive more than a week (again iirc), without an explanation neither to the person nor to said (and ill) relatives, and without even letting him say goodbye, doesn't sound too great to me, neither.

The only reason that worked is because Durkon let it work. The high priest of Thor doesn't actually have the power to do that. Durkon isn't actually banished, and not just because the current high priest said he can come home any time. Technically, he is away on a quest that he is simply too lawful and stubborn to quit on.

[Peelee]

The fact that a HP can kick out a person, practically letting their relatives believe he died (iirc) and leaving him in the wild with not enough resources to survive more than a week (again iirc), without an explanation neither to the person nor to said (and ill) relatives, and without even letting him say goodbye, doesn't sound too great to me, neither.

Well, it's good that you're not a dwarf, then. Do two things count as "a lot," then? You seemed to have a lot of grievances about how their society is objectively wrong, I'd like to hear more about them.

[aurilee]

Loving the art in this strip.

Belkar looks beyond epic with his leaping and his stabbing. Especially in the fifth panel.

I'm going to assume at this point that Andi will stage a mutiny very soon. Unless the Order can end this battle in the next strip or two.

[Quild]

I'm not very fond of the Mechane's crew attitude.

They seem to be oblivious to the importance of the Order's mission here. Thinking that the situation can be solved without them.

But it reminds me an interesting page of Erfworld:
The warlord asks his ruler to help him by changing which city is the capital.
The ruler doesn't want to do that and explains to a lackey that the warlord doesn't need that, he always figure a way to win.
The lackey makes the ruler realize that this, is the warlord's way to win. That this time, it implies the ruler's help instead of someone's else.

It's their turn to help this time. If they don't, maybe something will happen to save the day... But maybe not.
Also:
- They've been paid
- The Mechane has been repaired and probably will be again if needed
- It's not like someone died yet
- Their captain supports the Order
- Their temporary captain supports the Order
- I can understand how pirates have issue with being turned into a "ferry service", but as long as they somehow accept that, pirates shouldn't be afraid by some fighting...

I think they kinda sucks.

[Dr.Zero]

The only reason that worked is because Durkon let it work. The high priest of Thor doesn't actually have the power to do that. Durkon isn't actually banished, and not just because the current high priest said he can come home any time. Technically, he is away on a quest that he is simply too lawful and stubborn to quit on.

And Durkon let it work because these are the values of the dwarven society.
Obey, accept your fate, suck it up. This is clear even when he talks with Hilgya, who didn't reply: "What are you saying, you prude fanatic?!" but accepted his point of view as the one common in her society.
Hilgya refused those values (and, to refuse them, she had to run away), so a new face to face, now that we can compare what was healthier, if refusing oppression or accepting it with a suppressed rage and hate, seems a plausible idea.


Well, it's good that you're not a dwarf, then. Do two things count as "a lot," then? You seemed to have a lot of grievances about how their society is objectively wrong, I'd like to hear more about them.

Surely enough not being born a representative of a fictional race might be considered a lucky event. :smallbiggrin:

Well, talking about the dwarven society (=tradition, authority, etc) and not Durkon's family, two examples ARE a lot since what we have seen since now. I almost think they are 100% of what we have seen about that argument.
Moreover probably I have a dislike for oppression. And since SRD agrees that oppression is Evil (with capital E), well, I rest my case.

Dwarven society is Evil. :smallcool:

(The third argument, really, would have been the dwarf king, which is another interesting representative of the dwarwen-society-way-to-think, but if we disagree about the first two, I have the feeling that it is better to avoid that specific argument :smallbiggrin:)

Edit: just to be clear: "Dwarven society is Evil" is more an hyperbole. :smalltongue:

[Dr.Zero]

Thinking that the situation can be solved without them.


The point is exactly that. As I said, I suppose this attitude was copied by Julio (who seems to have an attitude similar to Tarquin toward narrative and plots).

They "know" someone will fix it. And they know that they risk to become the red shirts.
As Julio knew he could die, if he did return to help Elan.
So, as Julio did, they are replying to the heroes to get bent.

[Fri]

I'm not very fond of the Mechane's crew attitude.

They seem to be oblivious to the importance of the Order's mission here. Thinking that the situation can be solved without them.


Nobody told them about the mission. That's it. I might be wrong, but IIRC I think it's mentioned that nobody explained the OOTS' mission or that the fate of the whole universe depend on them. From their point of view this is just another heroic quest of the dozen. If you remember, there's many heroic quests and heroes running around at the same time, with various importances (like the lord of the ming quest).

Also, OOTS isn't the heroic top dog of this world, I think. They might be close now (definitely they're only middling adventurer when they start), but there are actually people stronger than them who might be willing to do the quest if they explain carefully (e.g, V's teacher), the problem is just there's no time. This whole half year in real time is only a few days in the story, I think

Why nobody explained to the crew the importance of the quest is another question entirely.

[factotum]

They seem to be oblivious to the importance of the Order's mission here. Thinking that the situation can be solved without them.


We have no evidence that anyone has *told* the crew how important this mission is. Bandana is in the know as acting captain, but all anyone else seems to be doing is following Bandana's orders--and not liking it one bit. Maybe if they were all gathered together and told the stakes they'd be more willing to follow, but at the moment it seems to be Bandana basically saying "My way or the highway".

[Peelee]

(The third argument, really, would have been the dwarf king, which is another interesting representative of the dwarwen-society-way-to-think, but if we disagree about the first two, I have the feeling that it is better to avoid that specific argument :smallbiggrin:)

For the record, even though I'm kind of busting your chops here, I do not disagree on the first.

[Kish]

I might be wrong,
Quite wrong, yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html).

(Now, it's obvious that most of the pirates let the explanation go in one ear and out the other. And there are apparently two perspectives on whether that reflects badly on them or not. But I would appreciate it if we could bury "no one's told them the fate of the world is at stake" next to "Belkar might be Chaotic Neutral" and "Gannji and Enor had a reasonable reaction to Roy's totally threatening them.")

[Peelee]

I might be wrong, but IIRC I think it's mentioned that nobody explained the OOTS' mission or that the fate of the whole universe depend on them. From their point of view this is just another heroic quest of the dozen. If you remember, there's many heroic quests and heroes running around at the same time, with various importances (like the lord of the ming quest).


Quite wrong, yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html).


Andi: Besides, what are they even saving the world from, anyway? Does anyone know?

Roy: Well, it's, uh.... hard to explain

Haley: Maybe if we had some crayons?

I would say that he's not at all wrong that nobody explained the OOTS' mission.

[Fri]

Quite wrong, yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html).

(Now, it's obvious that most of the pirates let the explanation go in one ear and out the other. And there are apparently two perspectives on whether that reflects badly on them or not. But I would appreciate it if we could bury "no one's told them the fate of the world is at stake" next to "Belkar might be Chaotic Neutral" and "Gannji and Enor had a reasonable reaction to Roy's totally threatening them.")

Actually that's the scene I was talking about. They know it's a saving the world quest, but saving the world quest is apparently dime a dozen in this world, and the world is never destroyed yet. And the OOTS never managed to explain how dire the situation is, on how this is the saving the world quest to end all saving the world quest. If they actually explain how the existence of this universe and all the afterlife depends on them, they might be willing to be heroic.

[Goblin_Priest]

Quite wrong, yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html).

(Now, it's obvious that most of the pirates let the explanation go in one ear and out the other. And there are apparently two perspectives on whether that reflects badly on them or not. But I would appreciate it if we could bury "no one's told them the fate of the world is at stake" next to "Belkar might be Chaotic Neutral" and "Gannji and Enor had a reasonable reaction to Roy's totally threatening them.")

Well, technically, you'd be wrong. That strip clearly shows that they were told of the threat, but that it was not explained to them.

Technically. ;)

[aurilee]

All the crew knows is that the world generally needs to be saved. From their perspective, this is some generic plot where all the Order needs to do is kill some bad guy and everyone's happy.

They have not been told about how the world will actually be destroyed, about the complicated moving pieces in this "quest" or about the strict timelines.

So yes, they know that "the world is at stake", but no one has bothered to explain to them why this is different than the standard adventurer stuff.

[Hamste]

@Quild (sorry can't quote, using phone and quote is hard on long posts)

They have been paid to transport the order not commit suicide, "probably" going to be repaired is not repaired, when someone dies it is kind of late to retreat, no comment on the captain thing and finally this isn't "some" fighting. This is a large number of frost giants each of which is basically a siege engine throwing considerably more boulders than you can fire your weapons. If this is a normal fight, presumably they would have high tailed it out of there immediately.

What is more the Order can say they are saving the world all they want, they are giving no details how they are doing it.

So they get hired to transport (which they seem to believe would have no combat giving they are saying things like easy money and Bandana says there is no spoils (comic 1028) or at least no more combat than usual). Turns out the people they are transported have angered giants. These giants gather in force to fight them and are more than capable of causing catastrophic ship damage. I think that is more than enough to question whether it is a good idea or not to continue going.

Imagine it kind of like this, you get paid to transport someone who says they are an explosive ordance disposal expert (say in this scenario you are not in the military and there is a set of events that caused this) and that it is vitally important that you drive them to disarm mines in a minefield that allies have to cross for a vital attack. You know they are a EOD expert but they give no evidence that there is actually a vital attack. They give no inclination there will be an attack on your vehicle except maybe a potshot or two. They pay you for transportation and you get on the way. You, however; get stopped by a mine field between you and the destination. The EOD expert says he will just disarm the bombs and you can keep going. Would you say you wouldn't question having to drive through a mine field where a single mistake could cause you to die and the person disarming them is rushing to reach his destination in time?

I would say that it is good to question this scenario and the one in the comic. You got paid for transport, you did not get paid to drive through a mine field or a field of giants throwing rocks at you.

[Kish]

Not quite as I said: I get that a lot of people find "the world is at stake" crucially different from "the world is at stake" somehow, but it's flatly inaccurate to assert that the crew of the Mechane haven't been told one of those.

[Hamste]

As I said: I get that a lot of people find "the world is as stake" crucially different from "the world is at stake" somehow, but it's flatly inaccurate to assert that the crew of the Mechane haven't been told one of those.

Well, I for one am glad the world is not as stake. Way too many splinters if it was. A lot less vampires though.

[Keltest]

And Durkon let it work because these are the values of the dwarven society.
Obey, accept your fate, suck it up. This is clear even when he talks with Hilgya, who didn't reply: "What are you saying, you prude fanatic?!" but accepted his point of view as the one common in her society.
Hilgya refused those values (and, to refuse them, she had to run away), so a new face to face, now that we can compare what was healthier, if refusing oppression or accepting it with a suppressed rage and hate, seems a plausible idea.

Durkon has, in fact, been specifically called out as more Lawful than the average dwarf. Those are the values of Durkon, specifically, which are the values of Dwarves taken to an extreme because, you know, they have to or they'll get condemned to an eternity of torture in the afterlife.

[aurilee]

Not quite as I said: I get that a lot of people find "the world is at stake" crucially different from "the world is at stake" somehow, but it's flatly inaccurate to assert that the crew of the Mechane haven't been told one of those.

Yes, the crew knows that the OotS needs to go "save the world".

But, they don't know any details that would make them believe this isn't another in a long line of adventurer quests where they have to go defeat some random bad guy who "wants to take over the world" or whatever. Their dialogue in that strip you linked to more or less confirms that. They think this is nothing out of the ordinary.

If they knew the full details though (the gods want to actually destroy not just the "world", but all planes of existence), they'd probably have a different opinion.

[Keltest]

Yes, the crew knows that the OotS needs to go "save the world".

But, they don't know any details that would make them believe this isn't another in a long line of adventurer quests where they have to go defeat some random bad guy who "wants to take over the world" or whatever. Their dialogue in that strip you linked to more or less confirms that. They think this is nothing out of the ordinary.

If they knew the full details though (the gods want to actually destroy not just the "world", but all planes of existence), they'd probably have a different opinion.

That being? Whether the world is frequently at stake or its a once in a lifetime occurance doesn't really diminish the impact of people failing to save it.

[Quibblicious]

Well, I for one am glad the world is not as stake. Way too many splinters if it was. A lot less vampires though.

What about if the world was at steak? We'd all have to worry about our cholesterol...

Q

[aurilee]

That being? Whether the world is frequently at stake or its a once in a lifetime occurance doesn't really diminish the impact of people failing to save it.

Well from what I can tell there are three main differences between the cliche'd quests (ie, the ones that the crew's used to hearing about) and the current one:

#1 - Typically the entire existence of the world and the afterlife and everything isn't threatened. Usually the peril faced is more akin to a world-wide dictator, slavery, or war, or plague or something. All bad things obviously. But a little bit more reversible than reality itself coming undone.
#2 - Someone else could conceivably "save the world" since the solution is usually just killing one bad guy. This situation is a little more complicated.
#3 - The "bad guy" is a fallible mortal who can make dumb mistakes and in the end can be defeated if the heroes/good guys are given a second change even when they fail the first time. In this case, it's not just a "bad guy" they're dealing with. Deities are voting on whether or not to destroy the world. If they vote yes, there's no turning back.

Also keep in mind that much like this situation, civilians tend to not know the exact stakes when heroes "save the world". For all they know, heroes/adventurers frequently over exaggerate and the threat is a lot more localised than they let on.

So yeah, the crew have seen heroes "save the world" from ill-defined threats before, and it never seemed like a big deal. It's just like the Boy Who Cried Wolf. Why should they think this is any different from some other villain-of-the-week?

[Kish]

You're missing Keltest's point. The number of times the world has been endangered is equal to the number of times it's been saved. You can tell that from the fact that the world's still here. If it gets endangered every week--then if one week it doesn't get saved, then it's just as destroyed as if that was the first time it's been in danger.

I gather, both from the scare quotes you put on "save the world" when addressing me, from your (et al.) argument that saving the world is different from saving the world, and now from your numbered arguments, that you think the Mechane's crew is treating the statement that the world is in danger as an exaggeration and is justified in doing so (correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't see the relevance of your repeated references to the other planes being in danger. I do not believe a bunch of lower-level-than-the-Order rogues are more concerned about the destruction of the other planes than they are about the Prime Material Plane. That looks like another version of the scare quotes to me: a way of making "they've been told the world is at stake, but it's unfair to expect them to act like they've been told the world is at stake" look more valid than it is.

I totally believe that they think they can shrug at the problem and expect someone else to solve it: where we disagree is that you apparently don't consider that stupid, selfish, and shortsighted. As one of them explicitly pointed out, they're Neutral. And Neutral is less good than Good, by definition.

[Ruck]

But what that strip does do is provide closure for the pair, and let the reader know that we shouldn't expect to see them again.
And I think one could easily say that the Linear Guild's defeat and Durkon's dismissal of Hilgya does the same for her.


Draaaaaaaaaaaama.
Is not the possible end of the world, the stakes for Durkon's character, and the stakes for the Durkon-Roy and Durkon-Belkar relationships enough drama without adding Hilgya to the mix?


Not quite as I said: I get that a lot of people find "the world is at stake" crucially different from "the world is at stake" somehow, but it's flatly inaccurate to assert that the crew of the Mechane haven't been told one of those.
Based on their reaction, I get the idea that they've been told "This is to save the world!" for a lot of quests that were much less dire than the Order's current predicament and have developed a certain cynicism to the idea.

[Dr.Zero]

Ok, let's try to see the points the crew must accept.

"They have been said that the world is in danger!

They must believe it;
they must believe that THIS TIME it is for real (even if this happens once a week and the world never ended);
they must believe these new heroes are the only ones who are able/capable to save it (even if they know there are higher levels characters, like their captain Julio, who cared so little about their quest that he decided to have a holiday);
they must give all the support they can to these strangers;
they must ignore the rules of the universe they know being true and to which their very captain adhere, between them the fact that some hero -which in universe have even some specific names, usually PC or protagonist- always stop the theme-park-villain-of-the-week;
they must be ready to accept their red shirts role and die as good mooks (sucks to be them, but who cares? they are not the heroes anyway)
and accept to die following the lead of the "captain" who happens to be just a kid who was given the role because their true captain wanted to give her a try (during a "end of the world crisis" nonetheless, again pointing out how seriously their true captain thought of the situation)"


I mean, really blaming them???

[aurilee]

You're missing Keltest's point. The number of times the world has been endangered is equal to the number of times it's been saved. You can tell that from the fact that the world's still here. If it gets endangered every week--then if one week it doesn't get saved, then it's just as destroyed as if that was the first time it's been in danger.

I gather, both from the scare quotes you put on "save the world" when addressing me, from your (et al.) argument that saving the world is different from saving the world, and now from your numbered arguments, that you think the Mechane's crew is treating the statement that the world is in danger as an exaggeration and is justified in doing so (correct me if I'm wrong).

I guess my point is that yes, the world has never really been in as much danger as it is now and that there's a high chance that a lot of adventurers exaggerate their problems (again, a Boy Who Cries Wolf situation).



I don't see the relevance of your repeated references to the other planes being in danger. I do not believe a bunch of lower-level-than-the-Order rogues are more concerned about the destruction of the other planes than they are about the Prime Material Plane. That looks like another version of the scare quotes to me: a way of making "they've been told the world is at stake, but it's unfair to expect them to act like they've been told the world is at stake" look more valid than it is.

Like I said before, most likely they've heard "the world is at stake" when it doesn't mean reality will cease to exist. Meaning this isn't quite the same as Lex Luthor trying to take over the world. And the lack of other planes means no afterlife or chance of resurrection (if any of them have rich relatives or something, they may consider that a back-up plan).



I totally believe that they think they can shrug at the problem and expect someone else to solve it: where we disagree is that you apparently don't consider that stupid, selfish, and shortsighted. As one of them explicitly pointed out, they're Neutral. And Neutral is less good than Good, by definition.

I believe this is where our misunderstanding lies.

I can understand why the Mechane's crew is acting the way that they are (basically they've become overly jaded). But I don't come close to agreeing with it.

I think that if they are skeptical about the veracity of the Order's claims and the urgency of their mission, they should have pressed for more details (and paid attention when they received some). They're clearly prejudiced against adventurers/hero-types and as a result they're being deliberately difficult. Andi is also letting some personal feelings regarding seniority/leadership get in the way of her judgement.

So yes, they are being selfish and shortsighted. I also find them incredibly frustrating to watch. I'm just trying to explain how they got to that point, not trying to excuse their behaviour (but I can see how those two things can get confused, especially in a written medium like a forum).

[Hamste]

What about if the world was at steak? We'd all have to worry about our cholesterol...

Q

Then the heroes have to save the world with ziplock bags and freezers before it all rots.

[Jasdoif]

I gather, both from the scare quotes you put on "save the world" when addressing me, from your (et al.) argument that saving the world is different from saving the world, and now from your numbered arguments, that you think the Mechane's crew is treating the statement that the world is in danger as an exaggeration and is justified in doing so (correct me if I'm wrong).For the record, my view is that they're treating the statement as hyperbole, especially after Roy punted on explaining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html) how the world was in danger. (Hinjo tried something similar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html), and it didn't work too well then, either)

Whether that's justified or not is ultimately irrelevant in the immediate scenario; justification is only going to matter after the fact if they're to be held responsible for actions they've yet to take.


I do not believe a bunch of lower-level-than-the-Order rogues are more concerned about the destruction of the other planes than they are about the Prime Material Plane.Indeed. To paraphrase the Tick, the world is where they keep all their stuff...like their payment.


Then the heroes have to save the world with ziplock bags and freezers before it all rots....so that's why they're going to the Northern Lands, to use it like a giant freezer!

[Peelee]

For the record, my view is that they're treating the statement as hyperbole, especially after Roy punted

Did you mean bunted? And if not, can you explain the metaphor? I don't sports much.

[Hamste]

Did you mean bunted? And if not, can you explain the metaphor? I don't sports much.

To punt is to kick away a ball in American/Canadian football so the other team may catch it further down field. To punt a question is to kick it away so someone else can deal with it (basically same type of metaphor different game).

[Kish]

"To hand off responsibility"--essentially, he declined to try to explain the mechanics of the world being in danger.

[Jasdoif]

Did you mean bunted? And if not, can you explain the metaphor? I don't sports much.Since I see Hamste and Kish have already explained the term I've encountered as a metaphor in project management far more than I ever did in sports (I don't sports at all, basically)....I'm just going to add that quick research suggests that "punt" may be derived from "bunt".

[Peelee]

Huh. I thought bunt because he barely swung at it, which made some small amount of sense to me. Muchas thankas, all!

[davidbofinger]

The fact that a HP can kick out a person, practically letting their relatives believe he died (iirc) and leaving him in the wild with not enough resources to survive more than a week (again iirc), without an explanation neither to the person nor to said (and ill) relatives, and without even letting him say goodbye, doesn't sound too great to me, neither.

The high priests' conspiracy to maltreat Durkon was motivated by preventing a terrible and extraordinary disaster, and may not reflect their usual behaviour.

Also, senior politicians may do distasteful things in secret without strongly reflecting on the society as a whole. Compare: Shojo was, at least in Belkar's opinion, chaotic good. But he was willing to break eggs when necessary for the good of the hundreds of thousands of people living in Azure City.

[Quibblicious]

Then the heroes have to save the world with ziplock bags and freezers before it all rots.

Not in the Frozen North.

Yeah, already got ninja'd, but I had that on deck all afternoon.

Q

[Manty5]

I think that people are reading too much into an ironic statement: "Apocalypse of the week".

Not one of the adventures Julio has been confirmed to have participated in qualify as an actual apocalypse - he's more into rescuing Tarquin's wives and defeating ogre-witches that may or may not be world-enders, but definitely aren't famous enough to be mentioned elsewhere.

So by "Apocalypse of the week", I don't think the speaker meant actual apocalypses, but rather was exaggerating for effect (or so he thought).

If world-ending threats happened literally once a week, one might think that Wrecan wouldn't have just about shat his pants upon hearing that one was currently happening.

[Goblin_Priest]

As nobody in the setting seems to really be aware of the OotS's mission to save the world, save a few, it seems quite plausible that every other such doomsday quest could be equally shielded from public knowledge. Thus, we really can't assert how frequent the world needs actual saving. This setting might very well have a weekly doomsday play, no matter how implausible it might sound at first glance. After all, there are a number of populated infinite planes. And if you say there are just 0,000000000001% of the population that is epic level, that's still an infinite number of epic characters and creatures. And if epic characters attempt a doomsday plot just 0,000000000001% of the time, that's still an infinite number of plots. That's the fun thing about infinite: you can multiply, divide, subtract or add whatever to it, and you still end up with infinite.

[TheNecrocomicon]

As nobody in the setting seems to really be aware of the OotS's mission to save the world, save a few, it seems quite plausible that every other such doomsday quest could be equally shielded from public knowledge.

Maybe by necessity? Just reminds me of ...


There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they do not know about it!

[Quibblicious]

A couple minor notes from the Bard of Record:

1. The opening panel is superb. It conveys the challenge of the battle and the action all in one nicely done panel.

2. The potential crew rebellion will be deferred, I think. My instincts tell me that this is not the place for it to boil over. Roy's got a decent charisma and Elan does as well. i suspect that Elan has learned a thing or two from his speech at Azure City and may be able to influence the crew if a smart fella like, oh, say a bald guy swinging a big metal stick, were to give him a few leads.

3. Belkar is still one of my favorites.

Q

[aurilee]

A couple minor notes from the Bard of Record:

1. The opening panel is superb. It conveys the challenge of the battle and the action all in one nicely done panel.

2. The potential crew rebellion will be deferred, I think. My instincts tell me that this is not the place for it to boil over. Roy's got a decent charisma and Elan does as well. i suspect that Elan has learned a thing or two from his speech at Azure City and may be able to influence the crew if a smart fella like, oh, say a bald guy swinging a big metal stick, were to give him a few leads.

3. Belkar is still one of my favorites.

Q

I actually mostly ignored the crew squabbling in favour of watching Belkar's awesomeness up until this thread exploded into a crew-oriented discussion.

I'm now going back to admiring the Belkster and the Giant's magnificent art. :smallsmile:

[Quibblicious]

I'm now going back to admiring the Belkster and the Giant's magnificent art. :smallsmile:

That's a fine endeavor. I'll join you if you don't mind.

Q

[aurilee]

That's a fine endeavor. I'll join you if you don't mind.

Q

Not at all. :smallsmile:

[Rinazina]

I expect a mutiny..

also, fits very well in the narrative innuendo, the mutiny management Bandana might do, and then became Capitan of her own ship? <3

[Valynie]

I doubt any mutiny will occur while the Pcs are on deck .
It is much more likely they will all leave the ship at one point and then not find it when they come back

[TheNecrocomicon]

I doubt any mutiny will occur while the Pcs are on deck .
It is much more likely they will all leave the ship at one point and then not find it when they come back

This. The party will have to disembark from the Mechane to take on Lurkon and his cohorts in an underground Dwarven city once they get through this battle. Regardless of whether more ludicrous backup-plan shenanigans are forthcoming, the Order will still need to have or obtain a way to travel onwards to Kraagor's Tomb at/near the North Pole to thwart Xykon & Co. and save the world.

Thus, probably the most damaging point for such a mutiny to occur (and most likely drama-wise) is while the wannabe-pirates are sitting on their greedy hands outside Firmament, with nothing to do while they watch the heavily-cargo/treasure-laden airships going to and fro around the Dwarven lands just waiting for them to plunder. With all the damage to the Mechane from this fight, though, I wouldn't be surprised if the mutineers promptly lose the ship to some hazard after seizing it, followed by their heads via Julio's sabre when he returns.

Or the crew might just get cold feet (in the Arctic? You don't say) and never go through with it, or Bandana might head off or thwart the mutiny in progress before it can get anywhere. Only the writer knows ...

[Manty5]

Or maybe the only significance of this is that the PC's have to pay off the pirates from the spoils, and that's why they won't have enough cash for a resurrection when they face Durkon.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Or maybe the only significance of this is that the PC's have to pay off the pirates from the spoils, and that's why they won't have enough cash for a resurrection when they face Durkon.

What spoils? They're moving too fast to bother looting the frost giants that they're currently blasting their way through, unless they've had a bunch more random encounters off-panel to earn treasure en-route.

Didn't Roy and Haley discuss this already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html) too? They're fully aware that their funds are tight if not insufficient for a resurrection. Mind you, paying for a resurrection is only the most blunt-force way to get it done -- they could obtain enough gp-worth of diamonds some other way, or maybe someone (or even some deity) may perform it pro bono if properly convinced or impressed by the Order (wildly optimistic as that is).

[Kish]

It appears that you're blurring between "fee" and "component" there. The diamonds aren't optional.

[Manty5]

What spoils? They're moving too fast to bother looting the frost giants that they're currently blasting their way through...

Didn't Roy and Haley discuss this already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html) too?.

First, since looting is normally NOT shown in this comic strip, I don't anticipate that it'll be rules-lawyered in that they don't get the standard reward-per-level. Even if you're right, arriving at port in debt with the airship crew would merely be an even more dramatic how-will-we-get-a-res situation.

Second, that panel is exactly why I made the comment in the first place. Since killing a bunch of frost giants would probably give them enough gold to buy the diamonds from... A RACE OF MINERS, this whole mutiny and damage to the ship thing could be a way for them to have a challenging fight but still have the question of how to raise Durkon up in the air.

[Fralex]

Just like PCs to not catch on to the fact that the DM has been very clearly keeping a running Loyalty score this whole time for the NPCs, and it is very nearly empty.

Also, that fashion joke caught me completely by surprise. I laughed.

[F.Harr]

Well, SOMEONE has their priorities. Maybe not straight, but he has 'em!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Anyone else reading the discussion on looting corpses suddenly expecting Belkar to show up wearing a frost giant's gem studded ring like a crown?

[Goblin_Priest]

Though the crew usually has an agreed upon share of the loot, as per their modus operandi, I don't think any such share has yet to be agreed upon and they are already getting a flat payment anyways. They shouldn't be affected by any loot Belkar grabs. ;)

[Hamste]

Though the crew usually has an agreed upon share of the loot, as per their modus operandi, I don't think any such share has yet to be agreed upon and they are already getting a flat payment anyways. They shouldn't be affected by any loot Belkar grabs. ;)

They are already on the edge of mutiny, I get the feeling if anyone gets loot and it isn't shared it will push them over the edge (assuming driving them through a giant ambush isn't enough to get them to break).

[Rogar Demonblud]

I have a hunch that if there's loot, Roy'd make sure some of it goes to Bandana to pay for repairs.

[JumboWheat01]

I have a hunch that if there's loot, Roy'd make sure some of it goes to Bandana to pay for repairs.

But would it be "take from this pile, we'll split the rest" or will he be paying from his own share of the loot, leaving him with nothing but a silly magical item?

[Kish]

I think if there is a problem that could have been smoothed over had someone offered the pirates more money at an opportune time, it will consist of Belkar carelessly expressing himself in a way that makes it clear he's not thinking in terms of the pirates getting paid, not Rich reverting to "the Order is too loose an organization to have pooled funds and Haley regularly rips the others off."

[jedikiller]

I want to see durkon being rezzed at some point in time. I also hope he regains control:smalltongue:

[factotum]

I want to see durkon being rezzed at some point in time. I also hope he regains control:smalltongue:

By definition, if he gets rezzed he regains control, because the only way that can happen is for the vampire to be destroyed.

[Goblin_Priest]

I have a hunch that if there's loot, Roy'd make sure some of it goes to Bandana to pay for repairs.

Yea I presume someone won't be happy with those damages. ;)

[8BitNinja]

But did you get the super-sized Big Gulp version of it?

A medium sized just ain't gonna do the job...

Q

Crap, I only got the 48 ounce version.

[Quibblicious]

Crap, I only got the 48 ounce version.

Well, at least it'll be an epic battle...

Q