Stealthy Paladin? or just go straight rogue?

[Pandyman]

So the basic campaign starting hook is that demons/fiends seem to be spilling onto the material plane for some unknown reason. My DM has a house rule for paladins that their multiclassing requirement is (Strength 13 or Dexterity 13) and Charisma 13, that way Dex paladins are a bit better. I wanted to make a swashbuckler of sorts that focuses on stealth and charisma skills. The problem I'm having is that I want to still be effective next to the fighter/barbarian of the group.

So these are the possible options I was thinking of, but I'm not sure if there are better options. Paladin/Warlock, Paladin/Sorcerer, Paladin/Rogue, Paladin, Rogue, and maybe even Bard would be a decent option. I haven't gotten to play around with the system as much as i'd like to so i was hoping to get some insight on which of these would be a decent option. The following is just a smattering of thoughts based on my own research, I was hoping I could get some help from people that may have seen/used the below setups.

Paladin/Warlock- you can make use of the darkness/devilsight combo, you get smites that renew every short rest. Allows you to smite more liberally and can easily toss in a paladin spell slot to hunter's mark an opponent as well. Might end up wanting to go something like paladin 6/warlock 14, not too sure on the best exact level split.

Paladin/Sorcerer- Similar bonuses to the above, you get a lot of smites per day, although when you run out you have to take a long rest to get them back. The huge positive of this one is the fact that metamagic is awesome and I can use the sorcerer slots to help with my disguises, stealth checks, or combat. This and Paladin/Warlock tend to be revered as the best two multiclasses. Build would probably end up being Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14

Paladin/Rogue- could possibly go swashbuckler, assassin, or arcane trickster. I would probably go arcane trickster to attempt to get some spell slots back out of this multiclass. Assassin is nice for a single burst, but you only get it if you roll good initiative or you're stabbing first and asking questions later. Swashbuckler gives you access to sneak attack in some situations you wouldn't normally get it, but since i have someone to fight with me to give me advantage it's probably not too necessary. Big positive of getting expertise since our group lacks a stealthy/charismatic character to talk to people. Build would probably end up being Paladin 6/Rogue 14

Paladin- Simple Dex based paladin, get smite, get hunters mark from vengeance and go to town. This would be simple and would end up playing like a standard sword and board paladin, it'd just have a higher reflex save. More smiting than Paladin/Rogue, but much less smiting than multiclassing into sorcerer or warlock. A small multiclass into rogue to get expertise wouldn't be terrible. Build Paladin 20 or Paladin 19/Rogue 1

Rogue- easily the simplest option. Go assassin and not much to worry about. Get some cool disguise options as well as a slew of skills plus expertise. Rogue 20 with possible fighter dip.

Bard- is fun, get to be the stealthy face of the party all while being a full caster and providing inspiration. Also simple, and very much a fun character archetype. Basically the less stabby rogue. Bard 20 most likely

Swashbuckling itself doesn't seem that effective, so maybe I should just dual wield daggers as a rogue. Any applicable thoughts are welcome, I'm just trying to make a decision i have a few days before i need to finish my character. My main interest is what have people's experiences been with paladin/(sorcerer or Warlock)? Also, is the swashbuckling rogue archetype any good compared to assassin or arcane Trickster.?

[Âmesang]

I'm currently playing a paladin (oathbreaker)/rogue (assassin) multiclass drow (mainly trying to replicate 3rd Edition's blackguard prestige class), so due to high Dexterity (and low Constitution :smalleek:) I've found most of my success by heavily using Stealth/Hide while either attacking from range with a longbow or, if melee is necessary, making use of Disengage to move towards a foe, strike, and then move back.

Granted, it helped that the referee allowed me to use the katana from the 5th Edition Playtest, being a two-handed finesse d10 slashing blade; just reflavor it as an "elven curved blade" or some such thing.

I suppose it helps if I imagine her as a rogue first (despite paladin being her primary character level) who augments her abilities with martial and divine abilities.

[Pandyman]

Do you just save your smites for when you get the assassin autocrit? I'm really trying to figure out the intricacies of each.

[Specter]

All good choices. I think that to be pull Stealth off you need Expertise. So I'd go either Swashbuckler 5/Paladin 15, or Bard 3/Paladin 17. You can even get to play the charming guy with the rose in his ear.

[Pandyman]

That's part of why I'm so torn, I feel like i almost need expertise to pull off a stealthy paladin effectively. If I went Warlock/Sorcerer as a secondary class, I'd mainly just be a smite machine which would probably be better with a greatsword. I didn't think about bard/paladin though, that could be cool.

[Specter]

That's part of why I'm so torn, I feel like i almost need expertise to pull off a stealthy paladin effectively. If I went Warlock/Sorcerer as a secondary class, I'd mainly just be a smite machine which would probably be better with a greatsword. I didn't think about bard/paladin though, that could be cool.

By going Bard instead of Sorcerer, you trade damage for support and better skills. You can consistently use your bonus action to help allies in attacks and saves, be really good at CHA skills and still smite hard.

[Âmesang]

Do you just save your smites for when you get the assassin autocrit? I'm really trying to figure out the intricacies of each.
That's the idea, especially with the slowed spellcasting progression, but the character only recently obtained the "assassinate" feature so I've not yet had the chance. :smalltongue: I rolled really bad last session…

[djreynolds]

Swashbuckler basically gets a free disengage versus the opponent he is facing and can sneak attack without an ally.

I like the concept, but the 13 in strength for a rogue/paladin does hurt in point buy games.

So you want to be the jelly to the barbarian's peanut butter.

I played a straight up strength based melee arcane trickster with a touch of fighter, down right nasty.

Prefer dwarf for this 16/14/16/10/10/10.. do not worry about your charisma score, expertise will help with skills

level 1 fighter, for shield and take duelist... in time you will use medium armor. Get sailor for athletics and perception and get insight and intimidation

rogue, snag expertise intimidation and athletics, and grab persuasion/deception

rogue cunning action

rogue, arcane trickster grab the shield spell

rogue, shield master. Attack and bash, lay them low for the barbarian

rogue, uncanny dodge or the shield spell, choices are nice to have

rogue, 2 more skills expertise, stealth coupled with invisibility and perception

fighter 2 action surge

and then rogue the rest, if you want you can grab fighter up to 6 level. Rogue 14-15/battlemaster 5-6

[Citan]

So the basic campaign starting hook is that demons/fiends seem to be spilling onto the material plane for some unknown reason. My DM has a house rule for paladins that their multiclassing requirement is (Strength 13 or Dexterity 13) and Charisma 13, that way Dex paladins are a bit better. I wanted to make a swashbuckler of sorts that focuses on stealth and charisma skills. The problem I'm having is that I want to still be effective next to the fighter/barbarian of the group.

So these are the possible options I was thinking of, but I'm not sure if there are better options. Paladin/Warlock, Paladin/Sorcerer, Paladin/Rogue, Paladin, Rogue, and maybe even Bard would be a decent option.
If you put fluff first, it would be obviously Paladin / Swashbuckler.

Now, for your question about Swashbuckler, yes, it's good, from nice to great depending on your style. In your case, the +CHA to Initiative bonus would mean a sexy +3 at minimum, always good. And you get free disengage when you make a melee attack (whether you hit or not) so that + Cunning Action means you would have great mobility to adapt to any problem arising.
You also get Expertise and a bit of extra damage.

If you want to be good at stealth, it means no heavy armor, even medium armor. Well, you will have good DEX, so don't worry, you're good from the start!
Although, if you want to really be greater, you could envision a single-level dip in Sorcerer: permanent Mage Armor + Shied + Magic Missile + Booming Blade and GFB or ranged cantrip are nice boosts for you.

But considering your DM houserule, I'd say it's a perfect chance to build Paladin / Rogue, and it will be very powerful.
Since you would already forego the Auras extensions, you could also choose to disregard 5th level spells to instead get more defense from Rogue, so Paladin 15 (because all Oath features of this level are good) / Rogue 5 (Uncanny Dodge).
Or go Paladin 15 / Swashbuckler Rogue 3 / Warlock 2 (free Mage Armor, Repelling Blast, Hex, Armor of Agathys).

Anyways, just go with your gut, you can't go wrong whatever happens. :smallwink:

[Pandyman]

There is one other undecided player in our party at the moment. Our current party is Druid, fighter, barbarian, me, and other undecided guy. He's not particularly interested in stealth/charisma skills, but with some of your suggestions I think what I'll do is start as a half elf rogue so I get the skills I want and i can start with a 16 in dex/cha this will give me some time to think about multiclassing out.

If i go Swashbuckler though, I should probably try to get a shield proficiency from somewhere.

After reading citan's post maybe starting paladin then going swashbuckler would be the best way to level this out. Paladin 2/Rogue Swashbuckler X/warlock X for smiting boost. So many options for such an indecisive person. Lol

[djreynolds]

paladin/swashbuckler.... Inigo Montoya... can't go wrong

[Mandragola]

Well the thing with swashbuckler is that what it mainly does is save your bonus action for dual-wielding, by giving you a free disengage. It's not all that important if you've got a shield equipped. You're tough enough to stay on the front rank already, and can happily use cunning action to run away if you want to.

That party already has at least two front-rankers though. Honestly, I wouldn't be building a paladin if I knew there was a barbarian and a fighter in the group as well. A character cannot be optimised if the party isn't. I'd look at what the party does not have, which is a controller. A wizard, sorceror or lore bard would do that job.

Or if the other player is thinking of filling that role, then some kind of ranged damage dealer. Warlock, revised ranger if allowed, maybe a snipey rogue.

So back to your actual question from the options you've presented I suppose I'd pick straight rogue, and hope the other player brings a wizard.

[djreynolds]

I think a battlemaster/rogue could be fun. He can fight where ever, good skills.

But the swashbuckler/paladin of vengeance sounds like it would be fun to play.

[Pandyman]

I could probably make a wizard who is a Bladesinger. I'd have the control options of a wizard and still get to be the swashbuckler. I'd just lose the charisma aspect.

You killed my father, prepare to die.

[djreynolds]

Just have fun, the rogue chassis is fun. Expertise is skills is great, and cunning action.

Yeah and expertise in social skills is easy. Bladesinger/rogue should be real fun for you. Lots of freedom.

[Mandragola]

I could probably make a wizard who is a Bladesinger. I'd have the control options of a wizard and still get to be the swashbuckler. I'd just lose the charisma aspect.

You killed my father, prepare to die.

That's definitely a good option. It's a fun, versatile character that will be very useful to the group.

[Citan]

Well the thing with swashbuckler is that what it mainly does is save your bonus action for dual-wielding, by giving you a free disengage. It's not all that important if you've got a shield equipped. You're tough enough to stay on the front rank already, and can happily use cunning action to run away if you want to.

That party already has at least two front-rankers though. Honestly, I wouldn't be building a paladin if I knew there was a barbarian and a fighter in the group as well. A character cannot be optimised if the party isn't. I'd look at what the party does not have, which is a controller. A wizard, sorceror or lore bard would do that job.

Or if the other player is thinking of filling that role, then some kind of ranged damage dealer. Warlock, revised ranger if allowed, maybe a snipey rogue.

So back to your actual question from the options you've presented I suppose I'd pick straight rogue, and hope the other player brings a wizard.
Except that...
- we don't know yet if the fighter would rather play ranged or melee.
- you greatly undervalue the free disengage option even for a shield-wielding Paladin (or, rather especially for a shield-wielding Paladin): because otherwise, he'd have to spend the bonus action to Disengage. Now he can use it to Dash, meaning he gets a much better reach for melee attacks while staying "free" of some OAs. Also, he could take the Shield Master feat, meaning one less chance to use Disengage as a bonus action.
- you also seem to forget the +CHA on Initiative which, combined with mobility, can help Paladin offing a dangerous foe on nova first turn.
- or the Panache at lvl 9: while the "end effect on attack by others" makes it fairly restrictive, it can still help him play the role of tank by effectively granting an at-will Compelled Duel of sorts. Perfect for a Paladin (especially Vengeance).

- you also seem to forget that Paladin can Bless at least 3 people: blessing the three frontliners (if Fighter too) seems a pretty sound tactical decision to me.
- same with Aura of Protection, means you can make a solid frontline when needed (or stand back with squishies while you unleash arrows, because you are a DEX-based Paladin/Rogue).
- and Paladin can apply some control, between spells (smite spells, Command, Compelled Duel) and feats (Shield Master, Sentinel, Mage Slayer).

Sure, the party could use some more direct control spells (and AOE), but Paladin / Rogue is still a very solid addition to the party. And there is still one member of party who doesn't know what to make. I'd say going Wizard would be perfect (lots of spells, INT-based skills). ;)

[Pandyman]

I believe both the fighter and barbarian are going greatsword/heavy weapons. So our group could definitely use some range and possibly magical control. We have a strong front line right now in the druid, fighter, and barbarian. I know the undecided person wanted to play a noble, but that could roll into any class effectively and that makes me think that they may end up making a charismatic character. So with our group a wizard or some sort of solid ranged damage could end up being perfect filler.

[Mandragola]

Except that...
- we don't know yet if the fighter would rather play ranged or melee.
- you greatly undervalue the free disengage option even for a shield-wielding Paladin (or, rather especially for a shield-wielding Paladin): because otherwise, he'd have to spend the bonus action to Disengage. Now he can use it to Dash, meaning he gets a much better reach for melee attacks while staying "free" of some OAs. Also, he could take the Shield Master feat, meaning one less chance to use Disengage as a bonus action.
- you also seem to forget the +CHA on Initiative which, combined with mobility, can help Paladin offing a dangerous foe on nova first turn.
- or the Panache at lvl 9: while the "end effect on attack by others" makes it fairly restrictive, it can still help him play the role of tank by effectively granting an at-will Compelled Duel of sorts. Perfect for a Paladin (especially Vengeance).

- you also seem to forget that Paladin can Bless at least 3 people: blessing the three frontliners (if Fighter too) seems a pretty sound tactical decision to me.
- same with Aura of Protection, means you can make a solid frontline when needed (or stand back with squishies while you unleash arrows, because you are a DEX-based Paladin/Rogue).
- and Paladin can apply some control, between spells (smite spells, Command, Compelled Duel) and feats (Shield Master, Sentinel, Mage Slayer).

Sure, the party could use some more direct control spells (and AOE), but Paladin / Rogue is still a very solid addition to the party. And there is still one member of party who doesn't know what to make. I'd say going Wizard would be perfect (lots of spells, INT-based skills). ;)I didn't forget any of those things.

We know that the party includes a barbarian on the front rank, plus probably a fighter and maybe a moon druid as well - plus eventually summoned bears and potentially whatever the 5th player brings. I think it's reasonable to say that there are going to be enough people on the front rank already. And we know there isn't a controller.

I didn't say that being a swashbuckler was useless, I said it wasn't all that useful. It is best for characters that have a routine use of their bonus action every round. If that's not the case then other options start to look better. And yes, swashbuckler would be an ok combination with shield bash - but such a character should be strength-based. The higher-level abilities are cool, but won't come online for a long time, especially for a multiclassed character. For most (and probably all) of the character's career they are irrelevant.

Glad we're all agreed that wizard is a good option.

[Citan]

I didn't forget any of those things.

We know that the party includes a barbarian on the front rank, plus probably a fighter and maybe a moon druid as well - plus eventually summoned bears and potentially whatever the 5th player brings. I think it's reasonable to say that there are going to be enough people on the front rank already. And we know there isn't a controller.

I didn't say that being a swashbuckler was useless, I said it wasn't all that useful. It is best for characters that have a routine use of their bonus action every round. If that's not the case then other options start to look better. And yes, swashbuckler would be an ok combination with shield bash - but such a character should be strength-based. The higher-level abilities are cool, but won't come online for a long time, especially for a multiclassed character. For most (and probably all) of the character's career they are irrelevant.

Glad we're all agreed that wizard is a good option.
First bolded part: well, it's the case since you always have a routine use of your bonus action as a Paladin (especially Vengeance): between smite spell, moving Hunter's Mark, Dashing, or using a bonus action from Shield Master / TWF, he has a routine use for his bonus action. So you actually prove my point. ^^

Second bolded part: nope. You can perfectly be fine with 10 STR because you can compensate with Athletics Expertise thanks to Rogue. Although obviously a better STR would help, it's still good (better than a pure Paladin maximising STR).

Also, we are not sure that Druid will be Moon, nor what his playstyle will be. I know it's the most popular choice here, but Land Druid also has nice things going for it.
Same with Fighter, maybe he will specialize to be an Archer since it's one of the best chassis for that and the party currently has no ranged attacker.

Also, Barbarian will be the one resilient, but have limited aggro capability. A melee Fighter may have or not depending on his archetype choice. Paladin does not have huge area control spells but can be very effective in keeping one-two enemies in check. Contrarily to what you said, his such skills come online very early in his career. Only Panache from Rogue would come late. Others are level 1/2 spells, or feats.
So a DEX Paladin / Rogue can be great at ranged or in melee alike, depending on needs, and provide great protection to allies along with some control. And OP could always start with the usual Paladin 2 / Swash 3, then use his past experience of party encounters to decide if he wants to continue being a main martial, or start branching to Bard/Sorcerer if he thinks it could really help the party. All these levels won't be wasted because smite synergize with more slots and better initiative can be great also for a spellcaster wanting to open a fight with a big one. So these levels won't be wasted anyways whatever happens.
(But really, pure Paladin / Rogue would be fine).

>>> Unless the last player decides to be neither Wizard nor Sorcerer, there is really no good reason not to go with Paladin / Rogue. ;)

[Pandyman]

>>> Unless the last player decides to be neither Wizard nor Sorcerer, there is really no good reason not to go with Paladin / Rogue. ;)

If I go this route, I'm thinking i may Paladin 2/Rogue 1 for the expertise then i can finish to paladin 5 or 6 and go swashbuckler the rest of the way after i get my 2nd attack and aura.

If the other person makes something that isn't a wizard, i may end up going bard cause i really want to be the party face. lol Lore Bard X/Rogue 1 for a bunch of expertise. I like bladesinger, but i'm not feeling it for this campaign.

or The first one could end up being paladin 6/rogue 1/Bard 13

I basically want to be able to melee a little bit, although it's not my primary focus.

[Mandragola]

Well a bard is also a great choice. A Lore bard in particular can do a good job as a controller, and the party will be very glad to have you along.

Nothing at all wrong with that paladin/rogue build either by the way. If you're not going to wear heavy armour I think I'd start as rogue, go paladin 6, then either stick with paladin to 11 or switch back. Works either way really.

[Citan]

If I go this route, I'm thinking i may Paladin 2/Rogue 1 for the expertise then i can finish to paladin 5 or 6 and go swashbuckler the rest of the way after i get my 2nd attack and aura.

If the other person makes something that isn't a wizard, i may end up going bard cause i really want to be the party face. lol Lore Bard X/Rogue 1 for a bunch of expertise. I like bladesinger, but i'm not feeling it for this campaign.

or The first one could end up being paladin 6/rogue 1/Bard 13

I basically want to be able to melee a little bit, although it's not my primary focus.
This would work very well also, so if you like the fluff related to Bard class and want to be the party face, go for it. ;) Obviously Lore Bard would be the right choice here.
(I'd suggest Inspiring Leader somewhere along the way then because great mechanically and totally fits your concept)

I'd then suggest starting Paladin (or Rogue), going Paladin 2 / Rogue 1 as you said, then either go up to Paladin 6, going up to Rogue 3 or starting Lore Bard, depending on what you feel is best for your party.
I'd still cram Swash 3 in the end build somewhere though, but it's my personal taste. If you feel you do well without Cunning Action or Swash benefits it's all good. ;)

Have fun!

[djreynolds]

Bladesinger rogue, it gives so much.

Have fun. Any class will work.

Go for the stealthy paladin, it could be fun.