Dialogue leads to Start of Encounter Question

[Diarmuid]

My group had a situation come up where logic vs mechanics had us at odds a bit.

Group comes out of a building and is met by a previous antagonist who asks for parlay, and sets his weapon on the ground.

Both groups are fully aware of each other and neither really trusts the other, itchy trigger fingers and all. Discussion goes on for a bit, but it's not going the bad guys way and eventually he uses a spell-like ability and an encounter starts.

The DM rolled Spot checks for the PC's to determine that the bad guy used an SLA because SLA's do not normally have any normal verbal, somatic, etc components. Those that made their checks were allowed to act in the ensuing surprise round. Where we got off the rails a bit was that even though there arent true components, the act of using an SLA provokes AoO's. If it provokes an AoO, obviously there is something noticeable about what's happening and distance from the target wouldnt impact the ability to discern what's happening, just how you would be able to react to it (light levels and distance notwithstanding). We seemed hung up on whether someone was threatening the person activating the ability, but the ability isnt dependent on the observer's ability to react to the provoking, the ability itself provokes...and if no one is near enough to act on it it's still provoking and thus be something easily seen as being done and reacted to as normal.

One of the PC's is a psionics user and there was a concern that SLA's and other abilities without true "components" (psionics can be manifested w/o any displays with a Conc check) being undetectable is a dangerous precedent to be set.

Dialogues/Monolgues, etc with Bad Guys is an intergral part of D&D and giving anyone who can activate an ability "on the sly" cart blanche to do so if they're not being threatened seems like yet another "magics have it better than martials". I've played a lot of games, and the ol, "I'm done talking, I draw my weapon and attack him" has never resulted in "ok you get a surprise round", so why should "I'm done talking, I activate XYZ"?

Thoughts?

[Geddy2112]

Combat assumes you are constantly focusing on your enemies, moving/weaving, concentrating in the moment etc. Even though a spell like ability or psionic ability does not overtly show you are casting, it does require you take your focus off the battle/whatever it is you are doing for a moment enough that any opponent who is focusing on the combat will see an opening to attack. In any martial, if you take your guard down(even mentally) for a second, a good opponent will see it and likely attack.

This is usually not a problem if you are not close enough to attack and it is not an active combat. You might just lose focus of the conversation, or listen, or use a pause in your monologue (uh, well, you see, etc) that indicate some pause, but nobody is actively trying to kill you at that moment so taking a second or two to concentrate on something else is no big deal.

Surprise rounds are determined when some of the people on one side of the combat are not aware of it off the bat-only 2 party members see the tiger about to jump from the bushes. If nobody sees, the tiger attacks as normal. If everyone sees, then roll initiative for everyone.

While a SLA won't show any effects of casting, the results could be very obvious. A fireball cast as a SLA is going to produce a fireball, which is pretty freaking obvious. Some spells that buff the caster won't be noticed, but even things like mind affecting abilities will draw notice if the target saves and notices something attempted to influence them.In the circumstances where there is an obvious effect, there is no surprise round so long as everyone sees it/hears it and roll initiative as normal. In the sense where one person casts an SLA that influences them with no sensory effects on anyone else, no surprise round. Even if this triggers an obvious response-Dave turns into a newt, or Dave draws and readies to charge, it is not a surprise round just normal initiative unless one party member is unaware. If the case of an SLA with no sensory effect being used, but influencing a character, again, no surprise round. I could see an SLA charm or compulsion sometimes triggering a surprise round-say the BBEG targets the guy in the back of the party, who then draws their weapon and attacks a party member. The party is focusing on the BBEG, but there is certainly a valid argument to call for a perception check of "hey, where did Dave go?" or to suddenly notice Dave is about to stab Joe in the back.

The other time a surprise round would happen is if there are other people there. Say the BBEG has a bunch of minions hiding on the ceiling-the BBEG knows they are there, and the minions see everyone. When they reveal themselves and jump down, not everyone in the party might notice.