Would you be ok with this homebrew

[NecroDancer]

mirror image is added to the bard spell list

GOO warlocks can replace "create thrall" ability to be able to learn moon beam and cast reverse gravity once per day

[Coffee_Dragon]

Reverse Gravity wouldn't fly on account of sorta wanting to disallow it for everyone.

[Specter]

Sure, why not. If a GOO is willing to lose his best ability for a spell, that's his loss.

[Sniccups]

I wasn't even aware that bards do not get Mirror Image by RAW. Good idea. Not sure about the warlock though, I've never played one.

[Draco4472]

Sure, why not. If a GOO is willing to lose his best ability for a spell, that's his loss.

Create thrall isn't that great a feature though...

[Coidzor]

Definitely the former. Not sure about the latter.

[SharkForce]

Create thrall isn't that great a feature though...

it really isn't even a good feature, never mind a great one.

i wouldn't give an extra level 7 spell slot if i cared about keeping warlock archetypes equal though.

[Citan]

it really isn't even a good feature, never mind a great one.

i wouldn't give an extra level 7 spell slot if i cared about keeping warlock archetypes equal though.
I'd say you just didn't even try to use it then.
Although the "incapacited" and "touch range" restrictions make it nigh impossible to use in an encounter (unless the party devised a specific strategy to make it work, which would be possible only in particular cases such as encounter against 1-2 enemies) it can be very great in RP situations. Particularly considering that Warlock has Darkness and Invisibility. Sneak into a particular, important person's room while it's asleep, and paf, you get a no-save, permanent charmed effect, with advantage on social rolls. Since you can communicate by telepathy, you can control him through persuasion even if you're 1000 miles apart.

If you can't see what to make of this, well, it's too bad for you. ;)

[SharkForce]

I'd say you just didn't even try to use it then.
Although the "incapacited" and "touch range" restrictions make it nigh impossible to use in an encounter (unless the party devised a specific strategy to make it work, which would be possible only in particular cases such as encounter against 1-2 enemies) it can be very great in RP situations. Particularly considering that Warlock has Darkness and Invisibility. Sneak into a particular, important person's room while it's asleep, and paf, you get a no-save, permanent charmed effect, with advantage on social rolls. Since you can communicate by telepathy, you can control him through persuasion even if you're 1000 miles apart.

If you can't see what to make of this, well, it's too bad for you. ;)

ok, so you get something slightly more effective than having a second person with you to help on social checks (you don't need a second person and if it goes really badly the other guy cannot personally stab you in the face) provided you can successfully sneak into that important person's private (probably guarded) quarters without getting caught, at which point you probably have the assistance of a person who you cannot make act too weirdly (otherwise any loyal servants will work to undo what you've done), and probably lacks any actual ability to help you at those long ranges you're talking about.

i mean, it's all well and good that you can get the king to sign a document releasing you from prison. but seeing as how he's 1,000 miles away, you're going to be waiting a couple months for that document to show up anyways, and if he actually had enough power to help you in any situation where you couldn't help yourself without needing to wait for help to arrive from thousands of miles away (assuming the king or whoever actually even has any power over anything at all at that distance) you probably wouldn't be able to get into his private chambers, because he'd be using his power to protect himself from people like you.

on the other hand, if you're not thousands of miles away, you could typically just bring along a friend, and then you could have an actual level 14 feature instead of telepathy that you can only establish in exceptionally unlikely conditions and which you cannot freely switch between different targets unless you can repeatedly establish those conditions.

[Citan]

ok, so you get something slightly more effective than having a second person with you to help on social checks (you don't need a second person and if it goes really badly the other guy cannot personally stab you in the face) provided you can successfully sneak into that important person's private (probably guarded) quarters without getting caught, at which point you probably have the assistance of a person who you cannot make act too weirdly (otherwise any loyal servants will work to undo what you've done), and probably lacks any actual ability to help you at those long ranges you're talking about.

i mean, it's all well and good that you can get the king to sign a document releasing you from prison. but seeing as how he's 1,000 miles away, you're going to be waiting a couple months for that document to show up anyways, and if he actually had enough power to help you in any situation where you couldn't help yourself without needing to wait for help to arrive from thousands of miles away (assuming the king or whoever actually even has any power over anything at all at that distance) you probably wouldn't be able to get into his private chambers, because he'd be using his power to protect himself from people like you.

on the other hand, if you're not thousands of miles away, you could typically just bring along a friend, and then you could have an actual level 14 feature instead of telepathy that you can only establish in exceptionally unlikely conditions and which you cannot freely switch between different targets unless you can repeatedly establish those conditions.
Thank you for trying a counter-argument, but it just proves my point: you don't use your imagination enough to get how useful it can be.

Especially with your assumptions about the limitations of what you could make a person do, and take a frigging KING as an example (like we haven't plenty examples of Kings who won't listen, in history or fictions XD). And taking a lame example like signing an off-prison paper...

(Also, why would you need help from someone to sneak? Barring Rogue multiclass, you can be proficient in Stealth with your background and use Invisibility to bypass areas without full cover. Or you could Alter Yourself to impersonate another person.)

[SharkForce]

feel free to provide examples of poorly-guarded individuals who can rapidly project their power a thousand miles away in sufficient quantities to meaningfully assist a level 14+ character or party in ways they could not help themselves already.

personally, i suspect it isn't lack of imagination in my campaigns so much as it is lack of suitable targets. people powerful enough to help out a level 14+ party from thousands of miles away also tend to have defenses powerful enough to stop that level 14+ party deployed around their person, because they know damn well that in order to accomplish anything with their power they need to keep themselves protected first. or at least, they do in my games. kinda like the real world, that way.

[Specter]

If you can't make use of an ability that creates your very own slave, you need to just swing swords. Anyone with Sleep can upcast it to make a creature incapacitated, and you swoop in and make them your ally. Boom. Or anyone that's making death saves. Or anyone knocked out by non-lethal damage. Boom boom.

This is only in combat; out of combat, there are many other possibilities. If someone put a hit out on you, knock the killer out and put the hit back on them. If you want more info about a group of adventurers, join them, wait for bedtime and leave. If you're in court, having a spy there can really save your party and steer good things toward you.

[Citan]

feel free to provide examples of poorly-guarded individuals who can rapidly project their power a thousand miles away in sufficient quantities to meaningfully assist a level 14+ character or party in ways they could not help themselves already.

personally, i suspect it isn't lack of imagination in my campaigns so much as it is lack of suitable targets. people powerful enough to help out a level 14+ party from thousands of miles away also tend to have defenses powerful enough to stop that level 14+ party deployed around their person, because they know damn well that in order to accomplish anything with their power they need to keep themselves protected first. or at least, they do in my games. kinda like the real world, that way.
Again, why poorly-guarded individuals?
As of how one could help...
- giving you a nice donation every month to cover your daily expenses, castle furniture or special equipment (rich noble)
- giving you a real-time spy on a distant land to get information about mass-scale enemy movement (like, you have been tasked by a state to help defend against an oncoming invasion) at least, maybe even thrall a soldier of mid-level in army and advise him to help him upgrade ranks, while subtly manipulating him.
- seducing a young lord/girl then enthralling him to try and manipulate more or less important matter through his/her voice...
- sending a "normal guy" onto a quest for information in a town/region where you and your usual friends have too bad of a reputation to even get close.
For the four ones that just come out of my head without any context. :)

If a target is too difficult to access at first, work your way through by using intermediates (with Enthrall or another). I really don't see why it seems so improbable to you, when it's a classic plot/quest twist and some game even revolve around that (like the Shadow of Mordor videogame).
Nor I see how you don't envision the benefit of instant telepathy whatever the distance. :)

[NecroDancer]

Create thrall is even better if your thrall is a spellcaster, warlock are known for having few spells so someone is willing to cast buffs or make spell scrolls for cheap (or free if your lucky) is pretty nice.

[JackPhoenix]

You have advantage on charisma checks against the charmed target. That's it. You don't control his actions. If you charm an enemy soldier and ask him to betray his nation...he may tell you to stuff it no matter your roll if he's loyal. If you try to get a commoner to suicidaly charge a dragon... he'll ignore you unless he would be willing to do that anyway. If you try to convince a greedy merchant to give you stuff for free... he's gonna need a better reason than "But I've rolled a 20 on Persuation!"

See the Resist Persuation thread so we don't start that OT discussion here.

[Citan]

You have advantage on charisma checks against the charmed target. That's it. You don't control his actions. If you charm an enemy soldier and ask him to betray his nation...he may tell you to stuff it no matter your roll if he's loyal. If you try to get a commoner to suicidaly charge a dragon... he'll ignore you unless he would be willing to do that anyway. If you try to convince a greedy merchant to give you stuff for free... he's gonna need a better reason than "But I've rolled a 20 on Persuation!"

See the Resist Persuation thread so we don't start that OT discussion here.
Yeah, I know the limitations and I agree with you on some of your examples (such as suicidal action or totally opposite to values).
But you still have a fair margin of manoeuver on a character with high CHA, advantage on social checks and probably proficiency in Intimidation/Persuasion. ;)
After that, it just depends on your own subtlety as a player: merchant? put a long-term return on investment or a contract to fulfill a quest. Soldier? Find one that may be a conscript or otherwise non-convinced one, and agree to help him evade/"die" so he can escape his duty. Etc etc...
Your only true rein is your alignment there, and it is surely harder for Lawful Good characters to convince others, since they would have to make proposal with true promises and real value, but it can still be done. And I don't think there are so many such Warlocks in the first place XD.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, I know the limitations and I agree with you on some of your examples (such as suicidal action or totally opposite to values).
But you still have a fair margin of manoeuver on a character with high CHA, advantage on social checks and probably proficiency in Intimidation/Persuasion. ;)
After that, it just depends on your own subtlety as a player: merchant? put a long-term return on investment or a contract to fulfill a quest. Soldier? Find one that may be a conscript or otherwise non-convinced one, and agree to help him evade/"die" so he can escape his duty. Etc etc...
Your only true rein is your alignment there, and it is surely harder for Lawful Good characters to convince others, since they would have to make proposal with true promises and real value, but it can still be done. And I don't think there are so many such Warlocks in the first place XD.

you know what else would help with that?

give those already disloyal people some money. it's basically only useful as a paper weight in 5e anyways. and whether they're disloyal or not, they're still not going to risk their neck if they don't stand to gain anything from it (on a side note, the fact that gold is worth basically nothing also means a patron who pays your living expenses is pretty meaningless (and even if you have one, how are they helping from thousands of miles away? they can't wire you money after all).

long-range telepathy is nice. long-range telepathy as your only class feature at level 14, with some pretty rough requirements to set it up, and no ability to easily switch it around and get it back on your original person? not so much. you don't measure value against nothing, that's just silly.

[Citan]

you know what else would help with that?

give those already disloyal people some money. it's basically only useful as a paper weight in 5e anyways. and whether they're disloyal or not, they're still not going to risk their neck if they don't stand to gain anything from it (on a side note, the fact that gold is worth basically nothing also means a patron who pays your living expenses is pretty meaningless (and even if you have one, how are they helping from thousands of miles away? they can't wire you money after all).

long-range telepathy is nice. long-range telepathy as your only class feature at level 14, with some pretty rough requirements to set it up, and no ability to easily switch it around and get it back on your original person? not so much. you don't measure value against nothing, that's just silly.
You are just trying to "be right" by using specious limitations. Sorry but I feel it's no use pursuing. No use trying to create a whole world/context just to demonstrate how to use an ability to someone who just doesn't want to.
"None is worse blind than the man who does not want to see".

[SharkForce]

again, this is a level 14 ability. if it isn't doing something awesome, it doesn't belong there. fiend warlocks get to hurl someone through hell, removing them from the fight for a full round with no saving throw allowed whatsoever, plus usually deal a lot of damage. fey warlocks get to lock down a target for a full minute with only a single save allowed on a short-rest recharge. these are what level 14 warlock abilities should look like. the charm effect from create thrall is worse than a charm person, and the communication isn't really dramatically improved over sending (a level 3 spell). i mean, you get more words, but it has to be a single specific target that you have previously been able to get into some rather specific circumstances, and sending actually can go across planes. there isn't even anything preventing them from trying to have the effect removed.

and my "specious limitations" are the limitations that someone else gave me. you wanna gripe about them, go gripe at the person who suggested using create thrall to get yourself a patron to pay living expenses, or getting a disloyal soldier to give you information.

now, if you want to introduce your own specific example of create thrall being awesome, go right ahead. but it had damn well better be as awesome as other comparable abilities. i don't give a crap if create thrall is better than nothing, i care if it is (approximately) equal in value to what it should be equal to, which is a level 14 warlock ability. if it fails at that metric, then the ability has a problem.

[Citan]

and my "specious limitations" are the limitations that someone else gave me. you wanna gripe about them, go gripe at the person who suggested using create thrall to get yourself a patron to pay living expenses, or getting a disloyal soldier to give you information.

As I said, you are the one restraining the argument to very specific examples, while you carefully avoid the more general trends I (or others) gave.
I just don't have the time to supplement a lacking imagination. Have fun without it. :)

[SharkForce]

As I said, you are the one restraining the argument to very specific examples, while you carefully avoid the more general trends I (or others) gave.
I just don't have the time to supplement a lacking imagination. Have fun without it. :)

those general trends seem to assume the subject doing whatever you want no matter how bad of a deal it is for them, with the subject never trying to do anything to get free from your control and never saying no. which is not at all what the ability does.

it gives very little control, and a very limited communication ability (very limited in that you can only use it on someone you set it up with in advance at very close range and in a situation which is not trivial to set up for anyone that can actually accomplish much of anything impressive in the first place).