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View Full Version : DM Help Hexes vs. Squares vs. Staggered Squares for minis combat



dropbear8mybaby
2016-10-15, 02:55 AM
I generally favour squares for their simplicity and ease of use at the table but I also often bump up against the limitations and quirks they create. I know hexes are more realistic but they also have their oddities and can make things a bit harder when it comes to drawing stuff.

Then I saw this:

https://i.imgur.com/ym2qmzZ.jpg

Apparently Arneson used staggered squares for his battle map. I've never seen that before and was wondering if it's a good compromise between hexes and square grids? What are the problems such an arrangement would create? More trouble than it's worth?

Eldan
2016-10-15, 03:11 AM
Looks interesting, I've never seen it either. One problem with hexes is that they don't fit square structures like buildings easily, but are more friendly towards round structures like towers. This would seem to fit neither all that well, you'll always have half squares left over around walls.

OldTrees1
2016-10-15, 01:35 PM
Staggered Squares inherits almost all the traits of a Hex map. Exceptions as follows:
The are worse at 30 degree angles (although Hex maps are already bad at those)
They are visually worse at 60 degree angles (although mechanically identical to Hex maps)
They are visually better at 90 degree angles (although mechanically identical to Hex maps)
They are visually better at straight edges and visually worse at curved edges (although mechanically identical to Hex maps)

dropbear8mybaby
2016-10-15, 04:30 PM
Staggered Squares inherits almost all the traits of a Hex map. Exceptions as follows:
The are worse at 30 degree angles (although Hex maps are already bad at those)
They are visually worse at 60 degree angles (although mechanically identical to Hex maps)
They are visually better at 90 degree angles (although mechanically identical to Hex maps)
They are visually better at straight edges and visually worse at curved edges (although mechanically identical to Hex maps)

So what would your end judgement be after that? Do you think Hex maps are better or worse, overall, than staggered squares? Or are they just different and neither is better than the other?

Winter_Wolf
2016-10-15, 04:36 PM
Staggered squares are worse than hexes, because instead of abutting six other hexes, there are places where you're only touching four squares, based on a quick study of the image. I'd pick either hexes or standard grid, or do the hexes outdoors/squares indoors thing.

Don't mind me, I'm not too bright today.

thedanster7000
2016-10-15, 04:51 PM
So what would your end judgement be after that? Do you think Hex maps are better or worse, overall, than staggered squares? Or are they just different and neither is better than the other?
It depends on the system being used. Hexes would be easier to use in tactical combat than staggered squares, but staggered squares are simpler to map if the system you're using works with it. I personally don't use grids at all, just measure from the model, and from experience, it works better and is so much easier.

OldTrees1
2016-10-15, 04:57 PM
So what would your end judgement be after that? Do you think Hex maps are better or worse, overall, than staggered squares? Or are they just different and neither is better than the other?

It depends on the angles of corridors you need for the place in question.

Personally I prefer hex maps when not dealing with walls. However since I am almost always dealing with walls it really boils down to which angles I need. Normally I wish to switch between 60 and 90 degrees (which leaves me stuck with no good options).


Staggered squares are worse than hexes, because instead of abutting six other hexes, there are places where you're only touching four squares, based on a quick study of the image. I'd pick either hexes or standard grid, or do the hexes outdoors/squares indoors thing.

Staggered squares are mathematically equivalent to hexes with regard to number of neighbors. The hexes at the edges of a hex map also touch fewer than 6 other hexes (2-4 neighbors).

Winter_Wolf
2016-10-15, 05:17 PM
It depends on the angles of corridors you need for the place in question.

Personally I prefer hex maps when not dealing with walls. However since I am almost always dealing with walls it really boils down to which angles I need. Normally I wish to switch between 60 and 90 degrees (which leaves me stuck with no good options).



Staggered squares are mathematically equivalent to hexes with regard to number of neighbors. The hexes at the edges of a hex map also touch fewer than 6 other hexes (2-4 neighbors).

You posted before I managed to save my edit. But actually the third thing I was referring to was just me being half blind and half stupid.

I'd still go with hexes over staggered squares though. Aesthetics if nothing else.

kyoryu
2016-10-17, 10:42 AM
That staggered square layout looks functionally identical to a hex map.

Segev
2016-10-17, 10:55 AM
Clearly, the most superior method is to go gridless and use a tape measure for movement and templates for AoEs. If you don't mind the extra work, this actually can work well. But it is more work to run.

Winter_Wolf
2016-10-17, 12:07 PM
Clearly, the most superior method is to go gridless and use a tape measure for movement and templates for AoEs. If you don't mind the extra work, this actually can work well. But it is more work to run.

Well, yeah. Despite what I'm guessing is blue sarcasm. But you know people: take away their grids and hexes and they go riot in the streets.

Segev
2016-10-17, 12:16 PM
Well, yeah. Despite what I'm guessing is blue sarcasm. But you know people: take away their grids and hexes and they go riot in the streets.

I was tempted to try alternating blue and black for "half-sarcasm," but it was too much effort.

Grids make things easier for most operations. I actually think running square grids with templates for AoEs is the most satisfying way to handle it.

kyoryu
2016-10-17, 01:31 PM
It really all depends on what you prioritize. Each solution has advantages and drawbacks - so which advantages do you care about, and which drawbacks can you live with?

Segev
2016-10-17, 01:55 PM
One thing I've occasionally pondered is a square grid that is centered on the character and can rotate any way the player wishes. But I think it'd wind up being, in practice, little different from the tape measuring method.


And yes, it is about trade-offs. For practical purposes, I almost always use square grids indoors, and often outdoors (though I might use hexes outdoors, if I feel like it).

Jay R
2016-10-17, 04:02 PM
Staggered squares are just hexes drawn a little funny, so it can be more easily drawn with a ruler and straight edge and right angles only. That's all.

Psyren
2016-10-17, 05:13 PM
Clearly, the most superior method is to go gridless and use a tape measure for movement and templates for AoEs. If you don't mind the extra work, this actually can work well. But it is more work to run.

You say that cheekily - but my Roll20 5e game is actually doing this and it's working pretty well.

ExLibrisMortis
2016-10-17, 05:30 PM
One thing I've occasionally pondered is a square grid that is centered on the character and can rotate any way the player wishes. But I think it'd wind up being, in practice, little different from the tape measuring method.
It should be exactly equivalent to the tape-measuring method, assuming your tape and grid increments are the same, you'd round your tape measurements to these increments, and your players can rotate the grid at will (not just once per turn, for example).

I think staggered squares, in this case, are simply a matter of a budget hex grid. The mat looks like it was intended to be a vinyl floor (except that the edges are too neat), so you can probably get them by the running metre.

Jay R
2016-10-17, 05:38 PM
We used staggered hex grids in the 1970s because hex maps were hard to find commercially, and annoyingly slow to draw. Staggered squares were pretty easy to draw.

I can't imagine a reason to use them now that any computer can print off all the hex grids you want.

Mastikator
2016-10-17, 07:54 PM
Clearly, the most superior method is to go gridless and use a tape measure for movement and templates for AoEs. If you don't mind the extra work, this actually can work well. But it is more work to run.

It's slightly more work when you're playing but much much less work for the campaign setting creator when designing places. I think in the end it's probably not more work. But it feels less war gamey I suppose.

Segev
2016-10-18, 12:11 AM
You say that cheekily - but my Roll20 5e game is actually doing this and it's working pretty well.Cool!


It's slightly more work when you're playing but much much less work for the campaign setting creator when designing places. I think in the end it's probably not more work. But it feels less war gamey I suppose.

Actually, war games traditionally were played with the method Psyren uses. In particular, all the heroclix system games and the Games Workshop games (Warhammer, et al) run without grids.

I also find that if you care about accurate relative sizes of chambers, the grid helps in design. Though taking it off-grid and using the ruler method could free things up for mini movement.

Thrudd
2016-10-18, 10:13 AM
Cool!



Actually, war games traditionally were played with the method Psyren uses. In particular, all the heroclix system games and the Games Workshop games (Warhammer, et al) run without grids.

I also find that if you care about accurate relative sizes of chambers, the grid helps in design. Though taking it off-grid and using the ruler method could free things up for mini movement.

Yes, the locations are drawn on normal graph paper or hex paper. When playing, it is far easier to go without a grid. Easier on preparation, easier on materials (you don't need specially purchased or drawn mini-scale grids or dry erase battle mats). Easier to improvise encounters in any location or terrain while playing on any surface. Not to mention it allows more natural movement and position than any sort of grid does.

oudeis
2016-10-18, 10:42 AM
You say that cheekily - but my Roll20 5e game is actually doing this and it's working pretty well.How do you implement this? Does Roll20 have on-screen objects like rulers etc?

Segev
2016-10-18, 11:47 AM
How do you implement this? Does Roll20 have on-screen objects like rulers etc?

I don't know about roll20, but gametable had a "draw a line and get a measurement" function (and the line disappeared when you released the mouse), and Tabletop Simulator has similar function(s). I imagine any tabletop gameplaying aid probably has some sort of "measure distance point to point" tool.

Psyren
2016-10-18, 01:51 PM
How do you implement this? Does Roll20 have on-screen objects like rulers etc?


I don't know about roll20, but gametable had a "draw a line and get a measurement" function (and the line disappeared when you released the mouse), and Tabletop Simulator has similar function(s). I imagine any tabletop gameplaying aid probably has some sort of "measure distance point to point" tool.

That's it exactly - you can draw lines in Roll20 and get distance measurements, as well as draw shapes for spell effects.

Zombimode
2016-10-19, 04:03 AM
I know hexes are more realistic but they also have their oddities and can make things a bit harder when it comes to drawing stuff.


One problem with hexes is that they don't fit square structures like buildings easily, but are more friendly towards round structures like towers. This would seem to fit neither all that well, you'll always have half squares left over around walls.

In hear this a lot, but I don't really understand it. You don't have to respect grid borders when drawing things. The shape of your grid parcels is not reality.

Jay R
2016-10-19, 07:48 AM
In hear this a lot, but I don't really understand it. You don't have to respect grid borders when drawing things. The shape of your grid parcels is not reality.

That doesn't change the fact that in a ten-foot-wide hallway, squares are complete, and hexes are not, which makes placing the miniatures harder on hexes. When most barriers are striaght and at 90 degrees, squares are a more efficient simulation.

It's also slightly more difficult to decide who was hit by a spherical effect on a square grid. But in dungeons, that is usually offset by the fact that fireballs are wider than most corridors, and therefore fill them and spread out down the hallway.

I prefer squares for dungeons and either hexes or freeform for outdoor adventures, for just those reason.

GloatingSwine
2016-10-19, 08:34 AM
In hear this a lot, but I don't really understand it. You don't have to respect grid borders when drawing things. The shape of your grid parcels is not reality.

You have to decide how much of a hex being occupied by wall obstructs it and how much though. A wall goes partway through this hex, can you move into it? Does it matter how far into the hex the wall is? Does the wall obstruct or offer cover to whatever is in the hex?

On the upside, you don't have to concern yourself with the concept of diagonals and what to do with them and how to deal with obstruction if one adjacent on a diagonal is occupied in hexes.

Zombimode
2016-10-19, 10:09 AM
You have to decide how much of a hex being occupied by wall obstructs it and how much though. A wall goes partway through this hex, can you move into it? Does it matter how far into the hex the wall is? Does the wall obstruct or offer cover to whatever is in the hex?

Yes, you need to answer those questions... but you need to anyways. Or is everything you map angled in perfect multiples of 90 degrees and the smallest dimension of everything is 5 ft.?

I'm a 3.5 guy so I use squares for my battle maps but I have to deal with those issues all the time.

Thrudd
2016-10-19, 07:06 PM
Yes, you need to answer those questions... but you need to anyways. Or is everything you map angled in perfect multiples of 90 degrees and the smallest dimension of everything is 5 ft.?

I'm a 3.5 guy so I use squares for my battle maps but I have to deal with those issues all the time.

There is a way to make those issues disappear and save on prep time, too...

Segev
2016-10-20, 10:30 AM
There is a way to make those issues disappear and save on prep time, too...
What might that be?

OldTrees1
2016-10-20, 02:55 PM
What might that be?
See a previous post of theirs:


Yes, the locations are drawn on normal graph paper or hex paper. When playing, it is far easier to go without a grid. Easier on preparation, easier on materials (you don't need specially purchased or drawn mini-scale grids or dry erase battle mats). Easier to improvise encounters in any location or terrain while playing on any surface. Not to mention it allows more natural movement and position than any sort of grid does.

Thrudd
2016-10-20, 05:57 PM
What might that be?

Don't bother with grids. Use measuring tapes or rulers.

GreatWyrmGold
2016-10-20, 10:16 PM
I was tempted to try alternating blue and black for "half-sarcasm," but it was too much effort.
You could do half-black, half-blue.


You say that cheekily - but my Roll20 5e game is actually doing this and it's working pretty well.
Electronic tape measures are less inconvenient than physical ones. C'est la electronic stuff.


Yes, you need to answer those questions... but you need to anyways. Or is everything you map angled in perfect multiples of 90 degrees and the smallest dimension of everything is 5 ft.?
If you know you'll be mapping to a 5-ft grid, it's not hard to do maps with those constraints.


There is a way to make those issues disappear and save on prep time, too...
At the cost of ease of play, yes.

Bohandas
2016-10-21, 01:29 PM
You could also use smaller squares to increase detail

Jomo
2016-10-30, 02:14 PM
This thread has convinced me that staggered squares are the best, so I've been looking around for a staggered square mat, but it seems difficult? Does anyone know a place where I can buy a staggered square mat?

It has all the advantages of a hex mat, but works pretty well in buildings. It also has the advantage that you can easily measure out the distance of half a square. That can come in handy.

dropbear8mybaby
2016-10-30, 02:54 PM
This thread has convinced me that staggered squares are the best, so I've been looking around for a staggered square mat, but it seems difficult? Does anyone know a place where I can buy a staggered square mat?

It has all the advantages of a hex mat, but works pretty well in buildings. It also has the advantage that you can easily measure out the distance of half a square. That can come in handy.

Heh, funnily enough this thread has convinced me to go gridless and use templates and measures instead.

Segev
2016-10-31, 09:51 AM
This thread has convinced me that staggered squares are the best, so I've been looking around for a staggered square mat, but it seems difficult? Does anyone know a place where I can buy a staggered square mat?

It has all the advantages of a hex mat, but works pretty well in buildings. It also has the advantage that you can easily measure out the distance of half a square. That can come in handy.

Why do you feel it works better in buildings than hexes, out of curiosity?

GreatWyrmGold
2016-10-31, 12:40 PM
Why do you feel it works better in buildings than hexes, out of curiosity?
Presumably because half of the lines can be aligned to the walls of the building. The fact that you only have one kind of partial space may also play a factor.

Bohandas
2016-10-31, 11:43 PM
I still say fifteen inch squares

GreatWyrmGold
2016-11-03, 11:20 AM
Do you mean squares which represent 15 inches of in-world space, or squares which are 15 real-world inches across?

Bohandas
2016-11-03, 11:50 AM
Do you mean squares which represent 15 inches of in-world space, or squares which are 15 real-world inches across?

Fifteen inches in-world. 1/4 the width of the normal 60 inch squares.

Vinyadan
2016-11-03, 12:00 PM
Clearly, the most superior method is to go gridless and use a tape measure for movement and templates for AoEs. If you don't mind the extra work, this actually can work well. But it is more work to run.

Actually, I would like to try this. I wouldn't use a tape though, I would use compasses.

Bohandas
2016-11-03, 08:08 PM
Electronic tape measures are less inconvenient than physical ones. C'est la electronic stuff.

The optimal thing would probably be some kind of virtual battlemat running on the computer (I couldn't point you towards one but there must be a program like that out there somewhere)

Jomo
2016-11-03, 09:08 PM
Presumably because half of the lines can be aligned to the walls of the building. The fact that you only have one kind of partial space may also play a factor.

Precisely. Both of those.

Also, I like how it's mechanically as easy as hexes to make something like a round area, and for an added bonus, I like how you can easily measure out an area half the size of a traditional square, because the squares all have a line touching the middle of their borders.

On a tangentially related note, I've been thinking about how the mechanics of other games would be changed by a staggered square board, leading me to invent a game I call "alternate universe chess".

So, does anyone know where to buy a staggered square mat? My searches have been unsuccessful.

Segev
2016-11-04, 08:13 AM
The optimal thing would probably be some kind of virtual battlemat running on the computer (I couldn't point you towards one but there must be a program like that out there somewhere)

VTable (which used to be gametable) is a good free one.

Thrudd
2016-11-04, 12:46 PM
Precisely. Both of those.

Also, I like how it's mechanically as easy as hexes to make something like a round area, and for an added bonus, I like how you can easily measure out an area half the size of a traditional square, because the squares all have a line touching the middle of their borders.

On a tangentially related note, I've been thinking about how the mechanics of other games would be changed by a staggered square board, leading me to invent a game I call "alternate universe chess".

So, does anyone know where to buy a staggered square mat? My searches have been unsuccessful.

I doubt they exist commercially. In the old days, people drew them by hand with T-squares and rulers.

Bohandas
2016-11-04, 08:44 PM
If's probably be better to draw it in GIMP or paint and then print out however many you need

Jomo
2016-11-06, 11:01 PM
Fair enough. I won't buy a mat, then. I'll make one when I have the time. It would be nice to have it in actual, durable mat format instead of a bunch of papers. Maybe there's a way I can make that work. Perhaps buy a blank mat and draw on it with a marker?

Jay R
2016-11-07, 11:40 AM
So, does anyone know where to buy a staggered square mat? My searches have been unsuccessful.

For all practical purposes, you can use a hex map. They are identical in play.