Hardest to Kill Character?

[Tsubodai]

Hey everyone,

Purely as a mental exercise, can you guys create a Level 20 PC that is incredibly hard to kill?

I was thinking either Moon Druid 20 with Tough and maxed Con, maybe Hill Dwarf as well for more bonus HP, or Bear Barbarian 20 with Tough and maxed Con.

Any way to further increase their survivability, or perhaps an entirely new build?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Welp, you can start with

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475120-What-s-the-hardest-to-kill-character-you-can-build

[Tsubodai]

Yes, perhaps I should search the forum next time.

However, in that thread the first poster mentioned "Some rather complex builds involving Sorc/Warlock/Paladin". Does anyone know what those builds are?

[djreynolds]

You know we played a 1 time 20th level bearbarbarian vs a demon lord, and even with resilient wisdom for a +8 save... I was groveling and fleeing a lot.

Yes I did not die and the party was victorious, but if it was just me, I would've died in time and theoretically the same for a moon druid in animal form if forced to expend spells to heal.

But moon druid has the capability of having great wisdom and con saves, and switching animal forms between turns.

[Tsubodai]

Ok thanks; so Druid beats Bear Barbarian.

[Shaofoo]

Druid isn't that hard to kill with specific spells. Disintegrate or Power Word Kill can stop a Druid since his animal forms usually have lower HP than his main body.

There is more to killing that just plain HP damage.

Also the hardest character to kill is any caster with Demiplane. Get in their own unique Demiplane and never leave. Nothing can get in and nothing can get out (including you unless you can Plane Shift). The only way to kill a Demiplane hiding character is either through DM fiat or Wish (aka DM Fiat with monkey paw).

[Ashrym]

Also the hardest character to kill is any caster with Demiplane. Get in their own unique Demiplane and never leave. Nothing can get in and nothing can get out (including you unless you can Plane Shift). The only way to kill a Demiplane hiding character is either through DM fiat or Wish (aka DM Fiat with monkey paw).

Disagree. "Additionally, if you know the nature and contents of a demiplane created by a casting of this spell by another creature, you can have the shadowy door connect to its demiplane instead."

It's possible to enter someone else's demiplane via the same spell, there's the presumption of won initiative going on for the wizard using demiplane in the assessment, and the spell lasts an hour so waiting it out is a possibility. It's even possible to stymie using the demiplane door with the enlarge spell because of the size restriction using the door, although that's not likely facing counter spell or dispel magic.

I'm more a fan of the monk 14 / paladin 6 for the saving throws because a failed save on lost initiative can cripple anyone. I'm a big fan of anything that helps against saving throws.

[Tsubodai]

Shaofoo;
Yes animal forms have lower HP than standard form, but if your DM has ruled that Tough effects animal form HP, then their Hp can get quite high.
Tough adds 40 HP overall at level 20.
Earth Elemental starts at 126 HP, with Tough thats 166.
A ninth level disintegrate deals 19d6 + 40 damage. Averaged thats 97 damage. Lets assume they are a sorcerer and can now cast it again at eighth level dealing 16d6 + 40 damage using quickened spell. Averaged thats 88 damage. In total the sorcerer has dealt 185 damage, only knocking 19 HP off the druid's normal form.

P.S. I was thinking more very survivable in the sense that they don't go down in fights; obviously a caster with Clone and Demiplane will be almost impossible to kill.

[Tsubodai]

Ashrym;

Yeah I can see how Monk/Paladin would work, especially if the Monk was a Monk of the Long Death.

[Ashrym]

Shaofoo;
Yes animal forms have lower HP than standard form, but if your DM has ruled that Tough effects animal form HP, then their Hp can get quite high.

"Class features and feats sometimes affect a shapechanged druid. Does the Tough feat have an effect while shifting? The intent is no. The Tough feat affects a druid’s hit points, which are replaced by the beast’s hit points while using Wild Shape." -- Jeremy Crawford

When in doubt, check the rules updates and clarifications. ;-)

The druid would have bonus hp from the feat and the beast shape hp would replace the druid's hp, which has been confirmed. The druid who take earth elemental form in your example would still have 126 hp. A single attack from many types of attackers can drop that below the threshold for power word kill in that same 9th level slot that disintegrate would have been cast. Many maritally oriented classes can do a lot more than that in a single turn with spike damage options. The average meteor swarm does 140 damage, druids don't get DEX save proficiency by default, and earth elementals have an 8 DEX for a -1 penalty on a DC 19 save (95% chance for full damage). The bludgeoning resistance would prevent 35 so that holds up fairly well against meteor swarm leaving an earth elemental with 21 hp.

Shape shifting for hp is over-rated given high level options for bypassing more hp than gained via the form options. What the above information demonstrates is 2 opponents have the ability to be problematic for the process because one opponent knocks the druid out of form and the second applies the damage. Given the meteor swarm example, an evoker would leave the elemental form with 16 hp (empowered evocation) and possibly less with element savant feat and not damage the rest of a party in direct melee via sculpt spell. It doesn't matter if the evoker goes first or the fighter to knock out the form because the form will get knocked out and the druid will take a lot of direct damage. AC 17 isn't a big issue at that level and it's within reason for at least basic magical weapons to be assumed or available via magic weapon spells. A druid against a group loses the hit points too fast. Or the fighter attacks and then the wizard PWK's the druid. Easy peasy.

Also, regarding demiplane, I'm not seeing anything in the spell description that prevents someone from opening up the door and following the wizard. It creates a shadowy door on a surface but doesn't state only the wizard can open the door. I gave other reasons demiplane can fail already. Clone works better but the clone doesn't activate until the character has been killed so the condition of the OP has been met prior to the clone having relevance.

Clone isn't restricted to wizards, however; bards and sorcerers can cast it through wish, bards can pick it up through secrets, arcane clerics can add it and/or wish, and it's touch so any high level character may have had it cast on him or her by other members of the party. The 4 months required for the clone to mature might make a difference where it won't be active yet as well and that means a person can run out of clones. It's also possible to find and destroy the inactive clones before the main target.

If you want something hard to kill, a hill dwarf champion fighter with 20 CON and tough feat has 284 hp at full and 142 hp at half when survivor kicks in, with regen 10 to maintain that 142 hp. That same character with epic boons can get up to 30 CON for 384 hp at full, 192 hp at half when survivor kicks in, and regen 15 to maintain that 192 hp. The bear totem barbarian doesn't heal and merely reduces hp damage. The fighter's DPR is much greater than the druid's although the druid can cast spells for control or damage. The additional advantage the champion has is the higher AC available.

The important thing to note, as mentioned previously, is that the hit points aren't everything.

[Shaofoo]

Shaofoo;
Yes animal forms have lower HP than standard form, but if your DM has ruled that Tough effects animal form HP, then their Hp can get quite high.
Tough adds 40 HP overall at level 20.
Earth Elemental starts at 126 HP, with Tough thats 166.
A ninth level disintegrate deals 19d6 + 40 damage. Averaged thats 97 damage. Lets assume they are a sorcerer and can now cast it again at eighth level dealing 16d6 + 40 damage using quickened spell. Averaged thats 88 damage. In total the sorcerer has dealt 185 damage, only knocking 19 HP off the druid's normal form.

P.S. I was thinking more very survivable in the sense that they don't go down in fights; obviously a caster with Clone and Demiplane will be almost impossible to kill.

You do know that if you Disintegrate someone to 0 HP they turn into dust. If the Druid hits 0 with Disintegrate while Wild Shaped he dies, he doesn't go back to normal form. Hence why I said Disintegrate and Power Word Kill, they can off a Druid without having him be able to go back to normal form.

At best you could have some mooks soften the Druid up and then blast him with those two spells.

Also Clone does nothing to prevent you from dying, it is just a contingent Resurrection.



Also, regarding demiplane, I'm not seeing anything in the spell description that prevents someone from opening up the door and following the wizard. It creates a shadowy door on a surface but doesn't state only the wizard can open the door. I gave other reasons demiplane can fail already. Clone works better but the clone doesn't activate until the character has been killed so the condition of the OP has been met prior to the clone having relevance.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/17/can-any-spell-be-ended-before-its-full-duration/

A wizard could cast the spell, get in and then close the door on himself (no action to end a spell like ending concentration).


Clone isn't restricted to wizards, however; bards and sorcerers can cast it through wish, bards can pick it up through secrets, arcane clerics can add it and/or wish, and it's touch so any high level character may have had it cast on him or her by other members of the party. The 4 months required for the clone to mature might make a difference where it won't be active yet as well and that means a person can run out of clones. It's also possible to find and destroy the inactive clones before the main target.

There was debate whether the Clone can actually work with Wish as written since the spell specifies that the Clone needs 120 days in a lab to be able to mature into a body yet there is no lab or sealed container if you cast it with Wish since there is no material component, it is arguable that because the spell can't function as it is written then the spell fails. Of course that is debatable and up to the DM I guess.

[Ashrym]

There was debate whether the Clone can actually work with Wish as written since the spell specifies that the Clone needs 120 days in a lab to be able to mature into a body yet there is no lab or sealed container if you cast it with Wish since there is no material component, it is arguable that because the spell can't function as it is written then the spell fails. Of course that is debatable and up to the DM I guess.

I'm not seeing how there's a debate to be made. Wish replicates any spell of 8th level or lower. There's no reason the spell wouldn't work. The only DM distinction is if the DM states a vessel needs to be provided or if the spell creates the vessel as part of the wish because wish covers the components. The ability to replicate the spell should never have been in question.

If you disagree, just hit up Crawford on it.

[Shaofoo]

I'm not seeing how there's a debate to be made. Wish replicates any spell of 8th level or lower. There's no reason the spell wouldn't work. The only DM distinction is if the DM states a vessel needs to be provided or if the spell creates the vessel as part of the wish because wish covers the components. The ability to replicate the spell should never have been in question.

If you disagree, just hit up Crawford on it.

Wish says that it eschews the components, not that it creates the components for you; there is a difference between waiving it and giving you to cover the costs. The only components that Wish cares is that you are able to cast the spell, after that you are on your own. Or better said the Clone spell will go off but then the Clone will die because of the lack of material components needed to make it grow. You are right that the spell shouldn't be denied but you'd just end up with a dead Clone per the rules. Of course you could have a live Clone with Wish but it might trigger monkey paw.

And you can hit up Crawford if it pleases you. Besides Sage Advice is only useful when it agrees with you, the other time we just call Crawford an inept mongoloid and Sage Advice doesn't count.

[Ashrym]

Wish says that it eschews the components, not that it creates the components for you; there is a difference between waiving it and giving you to cover the costs. The only components that Wish cares is that you are able to cast the spell, after that you are on your own. Or better said the Clone spell will go off but then the Clone will die because of the lack of material components needed to make it grow. You are right that the spell shouldn't be denied but you'd just end up with a dead Clone per the rules. Of course you could have a live Clone with Wish but it might trigger monkey paw.

That's not true. If the DM made such a determination the spell caster would simply supply something in which the clone would grow. Replicating lower level spells doesn't monkey paw by anything in the wish description.


And you can hit up Crawford if it pleases you. Besides Sage Advice is only useful when it agrees with you, the other time we just call Crawford an inept mongoloid and Sage Advice doesn't count.

I don't recall every seeing anything like that, but all it would indicate is butt hurt when the official clarification on rules proves someone is wrong. I sent the tweet asking as you mentioned.

[MeeposFire]

Ashrym;

Yeah I can see how Monk/Paladin would work, especially if the Monk was a Monk of the Long Death.

It would be great at saves but what else can it really do? You need a 13 in str, dex, wis, and cha and being a melee oriented character con probably should be up there too. That stat spread is crazy and means without some crazy allowed rolls you would not be able to ahve any decent ability scores (makes human very ideal though) and in addition you are giving up an ASI to do this which further compounds the problem.

Essentially what does this character do outside of make saves? His attack will be weak, stunning would be weak,etc. You are just hoping to outlast the enemy and I am not sure most people would find that to be much of a fun character.

[silvertree]

Races

A Half-Orc has Relentless Endurance, so any class combos deemed 'hard to kill' would become harder to kill via that trait.

A Gnome has Gnome Cunning, so that character would be harder to kill.

Class

Warlock 6 with the Undying Light Patron gets Searing Vengeance, making it hard to kill.

Combo

You would need to exhaust all of a Half-Orc Undying Light Warlock's HP, survive its Searing Vengeance, face it again at half HP, reduce it to 0 again, only for it to shrug off your last hit using Relentless Endurance, until it finally succumbs when you reduce it to 0 a 3rd time.

[djreynolds]

The moon druid is tough to kill, and he has spells and they are good spell.

Just as caster, a druid is still very good.

It is tough to judge one vs one fights, it sometimes comes down to the player making the right choices.

[Ashrym]

It would be great at saves but what else can it really do? You need a 13 in str, dex, wis, and cha and being a melee oriented character con probably should be up there too. That stat spread is crazy and means without some crazy allowed rolls you would not be able to ahve any decent ability scores (makes human very ideal though) and in addition you are giving up an ASI to do this which further compounds the problem.

Essentially what does this character do outside of make saves? His attack will be weak, stunning would be weak,etc. You are just hoping to outlast the enemy and I am not sure most people would find that to be much of a fun character.

MAD for sure, but the build on point buy starts STR 13, DEX 13, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 13 and then applies race after than. Regular human adding 1 to everything is the way to go to even up the ability scores to STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 15, CHA 14 with observant being one of the 5 ASI's to even up WIS to 16 (edit: could even up WIS and INT but passive perception bonus is more useful, imo). 3 of the remaining 4 ASI's go to DEX 20 and there is a choice of WIS 18 or CON 16; alternatively, 18 DEX for both.

DC 17 save isn't so bad as 16 CON is probably preferable and 20 DEX isn't weak for attacks at all. Could be 18 DEX, 18 CON, and 16 WIS. The benefit of a wide split like that is the buy points don't suffer increased cost for 14 and 15 as they keep a point for point buy and it's not as bad as you think.

Hour of reaping DC is a bit lower and stunning DC is a bit lower but the DC is still high enough to be worthwhile, and if the saves are an issue the ki can be spent on 2 attack with the bonus action instead of 1 attack or spent on disengage or dodge to reinforce the survivable nature of the split. The paladin levels also give the monk a fighting style and bless or divine favor, and possibly some smiting ability.


EDIT: brain fart. the build needs to start 12 STR and CHA and allow the human bonus to increase to 13 for multiclassing because it's short 1 ASI. That allows for a 20 and two 16's or two 18's and a 16 among WIS, DEX, and CON.

[Tsubodai]

You do know that if you Disintegrate someone to 0 HP they turn into dust. If the Druid hits 0 with Disintegrate while Wild Shaped he dies, he doesn't go back to normal form. Hence why I said Disintegrate and Power Word Kill, they can off a Druid without having him be able to go back to normal form.

No I didn't know that. Sorry, it just seeemed to me that being Wild Shaped is another layer of HP; the actual druid has more HP. But oh well, if that is how it works then so be it.

[Tsubodai]

Races

A Half-Orc has Relentless Endurance, so any class combos deemed 'hard to kill' would become harder to kill via that trait.

A Gnome has Gnome Cunning, so that character would be harder to kill.

Class

Warlock 6 with the Undying Light Patron gets Searing Vengeance, making it hard to kill.

Combo

You would need to exhaust all of a Half-Orc Undying Light Warlock's HP, survive its Searing Vengeance, face it again at half HP, reduce it to 0 again, only for it to shrug off your last hit using Relentless Endurance, until it finally succumbs when you reduce it to 0 a 3rd time.

Ok, so if we multiclass into something else with high survivability and HP then that could improve this build further. Paladin maybe for the saves. Also heavy armour proficiency if you start as Paladin and multiclass warlock.

That gives us 258 HP with Tough Feat, 20 Con and averaged rolls. Every long rest you can drop to 0 and go back to half HP - 129 HP. This effectively gives a total of 387 HP + Relentless Endurance. Also +5 to saving throws and if you go Oath of the Ancients, resistance to damage from spells.

[Fable Wright]

Druid isn't that hard to kill with specific spells. Disintegrate or Power Word Kill can stop a Druid since his animal forms usually have lower HP than his main body.

Sure.

How many opponents are there that have these two spells or similar effects, though? And how many builds are there that have absolutely no weaknesses?

For a moment, let's consider a level 20 Bearbarian. The Bearbarian has 24 Con 20 Dex, plus d12 HD, for 285 HP and 22 AC. Add in Resistance while raging, and he's not going down easily.

Then he fails a saving throw against Plane Shift to the sea of fire, and all the rage in the world won't keep him alive.

Does that mean that it isn't very hard to kill him? After all, you just need one spell that targets his bad save.

...Granted, there are a few builds where shenanigans like that wouldn't work. Take a Winged Tiefling Ancients Pal 7/Warlock 1/Dragon Sorcerer 12. AC 19 from heavy armor plus defensive fighting style, +2 from a shield, +5 Shield spell, possibly another +2 from Shield of Faith, and Resistance to elemental damage from Absorb Elements and against spell damage in general from Oath of Ancients. They've got 20 Con/20 Cha as a high survivability baseline, so 190 HP, plus Armor of Agathys for another 40 temporary HP, and as counter-gank for Assassin action surge builds. They take half damage from spells and have got some great saving throws; their +16 to Charisma saves makes it hard for a Charisma saving throw to shut them down even if a Diviner uses Portent. A Gate directly underneath them wouldn't work, as they have a fly speed. I can't think of a single way to kill this character in a one round.

On the other hand, what happens when a build like this runs out of spell slots? After 4 encounters, our Paladin has probably burned up his 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell slots on Armor of Agathys, a few Shields, and more besides to fuel their damage and utility. The barbarian, on the other hand, is fine as long as the Cleric is healing him. The Moon Druid might not have burned any spells or lost any HP, just from the fact that his opponents cannot out-damage his HP shield. Is it really the hardest to kill character if you can just run him out of his defenses after an adventuring day?

[Tsubodai]

Races

A Half-Orc has Relentless Endurance, so any class combos deemed 'hard to kill' would become harder to kill via that trait.


But Hill Dwarves gain 20 HP in total at level 20. If an enemy has multiattack, then the first attack might reduce you to 40 HP, the second to 0 HP, then you use your Relentless Endurance, putting you on 1 HP, so the third attack knocks you back down to 0.

[Shaofoo]

That's not true. If the DM made such a determination the spell caster would simply supply something in which the clone would grow. Replicating lower level spells doesn't monkey paw by anything in the wish description.




There is nothing that says that Wish should help the spell continue to function, it only cares about the spell being cast not about the spell being seen to fruition. Of course we shall wait for Crawford.

Also yeah I see a lot of dev hate around these parts.


Sure.

How many opponents are there that have these two spells or similar effects, though? And how many builds are there that have absolutely no weaknesses?

Disintegrate is a staple to D&D plus it has quite good DPR. I would say that if you can cast high level arcane magic you'll probably have it.


For a moment, let's consider a level 20 Bearbarian. The Bearbarian has 24 Con 20 Dex, plus d12 HD, for 285 HP and 22 AC. Add in Resistance while raging, and he's not going down easily.

Then he fails a saving throw against Plane Shift to the sea of fire, and all the rage in the world won't keep him alive.

Does that mean that it isn't very hard to kill him? After all, you just need one spell that targets his bad save.

Plane Shift to death is totally DM dependent, you don't control where the Barbarian will be in the Plane of Fire, he could be sent to a large lava lake to die or he could land in the City of Brass or some other not instantly lethal place. The Barbarian might be out of the picture but his death isn't guaranteed. Unless you mean there is a separate plane called the "Sea of Fire" and again that is fully DM dependent to provide a place where the only thing is constant fire always. Plane Shift isn't a good spell to kill because it depends totally on DM fiat to work.

Also I thought the point is to make something that is hard to kill, if something has a weakness then it should be exploited regardless on how often the weakness might present itself (weakness by the rules, not weakness by DM fiat).

[Tsubodai]

You do know that if you Disintegrate someone to 0 HP they turn into dust. If the Druid hits 0 with Disintegrate while Wild Shaped he dies, he doesn't go back to normal form.

Is there a Sage Advice for this? Just want confirmation.

[Ashrym]

Is there a Sage Advice for this? Just want confirmation.

There was a sage advice stating that dead is dead in wild shape for things like PWK as well as disintegrate and others.


If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash? If disintegrate reduces you to 0 hit points, you’re killed outright, as you turn to dust. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can’t save you.

What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate? Does the druid simply leave beast form? The druid turns to dust, since the spell disintegrates you the instant you drop to 0 hit points.

source: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-july-2016

[silvertree]

But Hill Dwarves gain 20 HP in total at level 20. If an enemy has multiattack, then the first attack might reduce you to 40 HP, the second to 0 HP, then you use your Relentless Endurance, putting you on 1 HP, so the third attack knocks you back down to 0.

True, but in the case of a large amount of damage (ie, an amount that would drop either the Dwarf or the Half-Orc to 0), the Half-Orc has the advantage.

So it depends on the type of attack(s) the character is meant to survive. I had made the assumption (perhaps wrongly) that when optimizing a hard to kill character, the character would be subjected to massive amounts of damage at a time, making an extra 20 hp negligible.

[Tsubodai]

Fair enough Silvertree; I was just checking. Seems Half-Orc is the best race for this kind of build then.

[LordVonDerp]

You do know that if you Disintegrate someone to 0 HP they turn into dust. If the Druid hits 0 with Disintegrate while Wild Shaped he dies, he doesn't go back to normal form. Hence why I said Disintegrate and Power Word Kill, they can off a Druid without having him be able to go back to normal form.



Actually no, neither of those spells can instakill the druid, but it is an easy mistake to make

Power Word Kill kills any target with less than 100 health.
Disintegrate turns the target to dust if it reduces them to 0 health or less.

Just looking at the spells they would seem to work fine, but you have to look at Wild Shape too.


"You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."

So you cast PWK on a 99hp beast form druid, the beast dies, but tge druid reverts back to normal form and Health. Same thing with Disintegrate, they get reduced to below 0 HP, revert back, cease being at less than 0 HP, and thus don't get disintegrated.

[LordVonDerp]

No I didn't know that. Sorry, it just seeemed to me that being Wild Shaped is another layer of HP; the actual druid has more HP. But oh well, if that is how it works then so be it.

Thankfully that's not how it works, Wild Shape specifically auto-reverts you back to normal form if you die or get reduced to 0 or lesd HP.

[Coffee_Dragon]

If you die you revert to a dead druid. It's not a big improvement.

[RickAllison]

If you die you revert to a dead druid. It's not a big improvement.

But you get to be buried in your true form! It could be awkward for some traditional funerary rites if the recipient's body is 64X normal size. Coffins for a human do not exactly fit mammoths...

[Fable Wright]

The Barbarian might be out of the picture but his death isn't guaranteed. Unless you mean there is a separate plane called the "Sea of Fire" and again that is fully DM dependent to provide a place where the only thing is constant fire always. Plane Shift isn't a good spell to kill because it depends totally on DM fiat to work.

The Sea of Fire is a location within the elemental plane of fire, much like the City of Brass is a location. I'd thought you could 'port him there given the first line of Plane Shift, but I didn't catch the latter part of only specifying a plane for hostile transportation. Still, sending the barbarian to anywhere in the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum in general will get him dead.

With regards to Dead Druids: ...Is there a simple way to get Death Ward for the Druid? If so, that seems like the simplest way to negate their PWK/Disintegrate weaknesses. If you have a Cleric, you can mooch this for free and still be invincible.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Coffins for a human do not exactly fit mammoths...

But do you realize how many orphans you can feed with a dead mammoth? This is the real reason evil-aligned druids revert.

[silvertree]

Ok, so if we multiclass into something else with high survivability and HP then that could improve this build further. Paladin maybe for the saves. Also heavy armour proficiency if you start as Paladin and multiclass warlock.

Paladin also gets access to Death Ward at level 13. Cleric gets it at 7. A Bard could get it at 10 if they wanted.

Death Ward gives another "Ha! You thought I died, but nope."

Given that Paladin / Warlock is already a viable multiclass, I like its chances for survivability.

[LordVonDerp]

If you die you revert to a dead druid. It's not a big improvement.
No, you revert to however you were before you wild shaped.

[RickAllison]

Paladin also gets access to Death Ward at level 13. Cleric gets it at 7. A Bard could get it at 10 if they wanted.

Death Ward gives another "Ha! You thought I died, but nope."

Given that Paladin / Warlock is already a viable multiclass, I like its chances for survivability.

Undying Warlock 7 gets 2 Death Wards per short rest!

[Shaofoo]

Actually no, neither of those spells can instakill the druid, but it is an easy mistake to make

Power Word Kill kills any target with less than 100 health.
Disintegrate turns the target to dust if it reduces them to 0 health or less.

Just looking at the spells they would seem to work fine, but you have to look at Wild Shape too.


"You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."

So you cast PWK on a 99hp beast form druid, the beast dies, but tge druid reverts back to normal form and Health. Same thing with Disintegrate, they get reduced to below 0 HP, revert back, cease being at less than 0 HP, and thus don't get disintegrated.

See


There was a sage advice stating that dead is dead in wild shape for things like PWK as well as disintegrate and others.



source: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-july-2016




The Sea of Fire is a location within the elemental plane of fire, much like the City of Brass is a location. I'd thought you could 'port him there given the first line of Plane Shift, but I didn't catch the latter part of only specifying a plane for hostile transportation. Still, sending the barbarian to anywhere in the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum in general will get him dead.

And like I said, you need to not only find a way to get him to the Plane of Vacuum but also not putting him in the few places where he might survive because there could be something.

I am not saying that you can't kill someone with Plane Shift but it is dependent on the DM, I don't count it because DM fiat can save the player as they can kill him.


With regards to Dead Druids: ...Is there a simple way to get Death Ward for the Druid? If so, that seems like the simplest way to negate their PWK/Disintegrate weaknesses. If you have a Cleric, you can mooch this for free and still be invincible.

Death Ward just prevents you to get from 0 HP by leaving you at 1 HP and it does negate PWK but both times Death Ward is then expended. Could be good for PWK since it is a 9th level spell. But it isn't a Druid spell and since you need to be all Druid you can't get it. I wouldn't call needing to piggy back off someone to be invincible since then you'd have to give everyone a Cleric buddy to cast it to be fair.

[toapat]

No, you revert to however you were before you wild shaped.

last i frequented the forums, which was after the "Crawford ignores the actual druid question" response, even Tiamat couldnt Instagib a lvl20 Druid of the Moon if she lost initiative. However the druid also is incapable of making any headway vs Queen Evil

[Sabeta]

Play a Wizard. For your 1 gaming set take Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition. Constantly remind people you're "from the coast", and that you understand that the fundamentally laws of the universe are controlled by Dice Roll. Make sure you have high Charisma and Persuasion in order to start a religion, and make sure your Wizard is allowed to add his Gaming Set Proficiency to ALL Dice Rolls. Also make sure your Wizard has loaded dice.

[Rainbownaga]

Has there been a ruling on the effect of massive damage on a druid? Does a druid in cat form that takes 30 damage automatically die in humanoid form as well (since the damage was more than twice their current hp)?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I've been told an Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard is nigh unkillable up until the DM gets mad and drops rocks everywhere.

[Tsubodai]

I've been told an Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard is nigh unkillable up until the DM gets mad and drops rocks everywhere.

Why? As far as I can see their Ward is all that protects them, but the druid has a similar HP shield that is much higher.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Why? As far as I can see their Ward is all that protects them, but the druid has a similar HP shield that is much higher.

I've been told that armor proficiency (Dwarf), plus their ward so long as you exclusively or almost exclusively use abjuration spells is basically an inevitable. No creature can realistically harm it. It can't really aid the party at all in combat, except as a distraction, but you will certainly survive everything thrown at you.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Has there been a ruling on the effect of massive damage on a druid? Does a druid in cat form that takes 30 damage automatically die in humanoid form as well (since the damage was more than twice their current hp)?

There is no ruling that I can find in the collected SA, at least. Here are two links from Stack Exchange:

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/57030/how-much-damage-can-a-druid-wild-shaped-into-a-spider-take-without-dying-instant/57033#57033

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/68271/power-word-kill-against-wild-shape

The consensus there is seemingly that if you die, you're dead; reverting to normal form does not include resurrection. However, there's an opening for a different ruling on massive damage if you assume that instant death check and reverting can be sequenced to the druid's benefit so that the check is made against the druid's own HP, which may be a reasonable ruling unless you want druids-as-small-woodland-animals to fear death at all times.

[Tsubodai]

So...
Once per long rest, when you cast an abjuration spell of first level or higher the ward is created with ~45 HP. When you cast another abjuration spell the ward regains HP equal to twice the spell's level. After that you basically auto-succeed on Counterspell, and get resistance to spell damage and advantage on saving throws vs spells.

Perhaps because the campaigns I have played in tend to have a distinct lack of enemy spellcasters (maybe one every four dungeons) I have underrated the Abjurer's abilities, but I still think they pale into comparison with what the druid gets;

Once per turn, you can transform into an Earth Elemental with 126 HP as a bonus action. And therefore, through those elemental transformations you can get immunity to poison; resistance to bludegoning, piercing and slashing; possible immunity to fire; and possible resistance to thunder, acid, lightning.
And then you can still cast spells as effectively as the Wizard.

[LordVonDerp]

See








Let's see what the book says:
WILD Shape
" You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a Bonus Action on Your Turn. You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."
Automatically revert back to normal form on death or at <= 0 HP.

PWK:
"You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect (101 hp or more)."
Wild shape dies if it has less than 100 hp. Now, what happens to a wild shaped druid who dies? That's right, he reverts back to normal form with whatever health he had.

Disintegrate:
"A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10D6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated."

So what happens to a wild shaped druid at <=0 HP? That's right, the druid reverts back to normal and ceases to meet the conditions needed for disintegration.


So no, they don't work.

[LordVonDerp]

Has there been a ruling on the effect of massive damage on a druid? Does a druid in cat form that takes 30 damage automatically die in humanoid form as well (since the damage was more than twice their current hp)?

It's covered in the wild shape rules; the druid reverts back to normal on death, though any excess damage will bleed through to their normal form's hp.

[Tsubodai]

Thank you for clearing that up. That's what I thought happened.

[Shaofoo]

Let's see what the book says:
WILD Shape
" You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a Bonus Action on Your Turn. You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."
Automatically revert back to normal form on death or at <= 0 HP.

PWK:
"You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect (101 hp or more)."
Wild shape dies if it has less than 100 hp. Now, what happens to a wild shaped druid who dies? That's right, he reverts back to normal form with whatever health he had.

Disintegrate:
"A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10D6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated."

So what happens to a wild shaped druid at <=0 HP? That's right, the druid reverts back to normal and ceases to meet the conditions needed for disintegration.


So no, they don't work.

Death is not 0 HP. Death is death. PWK turns you from alive to dead regardless of HP. You technically die at whatever positive HP you had left.

And your confusion seems to stem that you first resolve Wild Shape and then you resolve Disintegrate instead of both at once. If you resolve Disintegrate first you turn to dust and then nothing else because you are dead or even at the same time you still turn to dust.

But hey it is like I said, Sage Advice is only useful if it agrees with you, otherwise it is written by a rabid gibbon that doesn't know how to read much less articulate thoughts.

[LordVonDerp]

Death is not 0 HP. Death is death. PWK turns you from alive to dead regardless of HP. You technically die at whatever positive HP you had left.

Did you actually read my post? At no point did I equate death with 0 hp.
Remember: killing the beast doesn't kill the druid.



And your confusion seems to stem that you first resolve Wild Shape and then you resolve Disintegrate instead of both at once. If you resolve Disintegrate first you turn to dust and then nothing else because you are dead or even at the same time you still turn to dust.
They absolutely happen at the same time, as opposed to having the druid revert after.
Disintegrate only turns the target to dust if the target is at 0 or less HP after the damage, but since the druid isn't left at 0 they don't turn to dust.


Remember: Specific (wild shape rules) beats general (spell rules).
Also Remember: resolving both at once means resolving both at once, not resolving disintegrate first.



But hey it is like I said, Sage Advice is only useful if it agrees with you, otherwise it is written by a rabid gibbon that doesn't know how to read much less articulate thoughts.

What does any of this have to do with anything?

[Tsubodai]

As LordVonDerp said, the druid is not at 0 HP. He is at the amount of HP he had before he wildshaped, minus he amount of damage that carried over. For instance, lets assume this druid was at 200 HP before he transformed. He then effectively had 200 HP + 126 HP. Disintegrate removed the 126 HP, with 59 damage carrying over. The druid is now on 141 HP; ie not on 0.

[Maxilian]

I actually think the best Tank is a Monk Long Death 11 / Druid of the Moon X

Why? cause i have 11 Ki points, that i can use to fall to 1 HP instead of 0, the really good part about this with the Druid of the moon, is that you can use it while transformed, so instead of having your animal form be lost, it will survive longer, but that's not the most important part, the most important part, is that this is the only true way in DnD to deny damage taken.

Example:

I'm transformed into a Wolf, lets say that said wolf have 34 HP, if i take 50 damage, i would normally lose my wolf form and take 16 damage in my human form, but if i use the Long Death Monk ability to have the wolf fall to 1 instead of 0, the extra 16 damage won't be passed out to my human form, making it a trully strong tank

[Maxilian]

Let's see what the book says:
WILD Shape
" You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a Bonus Action on Your Turn. You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."
Automatically revert back to normal form on death or at <= 0 HP.

PWK:
"You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect (101 hp or more)."
Wild shape dies if it has less than 100 hp. Now, what happens to a wild shaped druid who dies? That's right, he reverts back to normal form with whatever health he had.

Disintegrate:
"A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10D6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated."

So what happens to a wild shaped druid at <=0 HP? That's right, the druid reverts back to normal and ceases to meet the conditions needed for disintegration.


So no, they don't work.

Wait... why do you say that the Disintegrate spell won't work, 2 things:

The wording on the spell won't turn you back to your normal form, it will just turn you to dust, and we also have a Sage Advice about this (confirming that it actually kills the Druid).

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-july-2016

Note: If i for some reason missread what you say, just point it out and lets not make a debate over a non-issue

Note2: I wonder, would it be possible for the druid player to react to the spell? (with a ready action) and turn back to its human form before getting affected by the spell with the possibility that now, he doesn't meet the critiria of dying with those spells (I'm going with the fake idea that the Druid have more HP than its animal form)

[Shaofoo]

Did you actually read my post? At no point did I equate death with 0 hp.
Remember: killing the beast doesn't kill the druid.

You did. If the person dies then he is dead. You only revert when you go at 0 HP. You don't get to 0 HP from PWK you go to dead. You are left at positive HP and dead. This isn't 3.x where dead is -10 HP there is no HP setting in dead, you are just dead.

Another way, if you are afflicted by a status in animal form that stays with you through the change back, you don't get a clean wipe. If you are grappled, poisoned, restrained, stunned, etc in animal form you will still be the same when you revert back. Same deal with dead except you just die.



They absolutely happen at the same time, as opposed to having the druid revert after.
Disintegrate only turns the target to dust if the target is at 0 or less HP after the damage, but since the druid isn't left at 0 they don't turn to dust.


Remember: Specific (wild shape rules) beats general (spell rules).
Also Remember: resolving both at once means resolving both at once, not resolving disintegrate first.

So basically they resolve into the main druid (wild shape) that turns to dust (disintegrate). Meaning powdered real druid form meaning dead.

Both spells and class abilities are specific rules, in fact I would argue that Disintegrate is more specific but it is neither here nor there.

The only way your way will work is if in the middle of resolving Disintegrate you apply Wild Shape. I would assume you apply everything to Disintegrate immediately and then you check for anything else.


What does any of this have to do with anything?

Just having some fun.




Note2: I wonder, would it be possible for the druid player to react to the spell? (with a ready action) and turn back to its human form before getting affected by the spell with the possibility that now, he doesn't meet the critiria of dying with those spells (I'm going with the fake idea that the Druid have more HP than its animal form)

It would have to be something observable. You can't say that you react to a casting of the Disintegrate spell, at best you can say if you see someone cast a spell, of course it is debatable how much one would know when someone else is casting (See countless Counterspell arguments).

[Jjj111]

I actually think the best Tank is a Monk Long Death 11 / Druid of the Moon X

Why? cause i have 11 Ki points, that i can use to fall to 1 HP instead of 0, the really good part about this with the Druid of the moon, is that you can use it while transformed, so instead of having your animal form be lost, it will survive longer, but that's not the most important part, the most important part, is that this is the only true way in DnD to deny damage taken.

Example:

I'm transformed into a Wolf, lets say that said wolf have 34 HP, if i take 50 damage, i would normally lose my wolf form and take 16 damage in my human form, but if i use the Long Death Monk ability to have the wolf fall to 1 instead of 0, the extra 16 damage won't be passed out to my human form, making it a trully strong tank

This has got to be the winner. This is awesome.

[RickAllison]

Here are some of my thoughts on the druid with Disintegrate or PWK:

0) Note that these points are made with the assumption that conditions persist when druids revert. This is based on conditions not being a statistic and that the only other aspect of a druid that changes upon reverting is specified to be HP. Thus if a druid is stunned by a monk and knocked down to 0 HP, they will remain stunned. If they are knocked prone and dropped to 0 HP, they remain prone. If you disagree with this assumption, please state so, as that drastically changes the logic of the argument.

1) You cannot claim off-hand that a class ability is more specific than a spell unless it includes text to that effect. We know we have specific v. general rules, but we have no rules on varying specific-ness to rely on and so must conclude they are equally specific.

2) For Disintegrate, both the ability and the spell have the same trigger, reaching 0 HP, and so trigger simultaneously since we have no rules covering this timing and both are automatic. This means that if the trigger for one occurs, the other has to occur as well (else the first one couldn't have activated). So one both disintegrates and reverts to druid form. Unfortunately, being rendered into "a pile of fine, gray dust" is not something that the Wild Shape ability changes upon reverting.

3) For PWK, we have the spell causing death in the druid, and death reverting a druid. Great, the druid reverts, but that doesn't change the fact that the druid is dead and so remains when they are brought back to normal. Let's re-read the appropriate sentence in Wild Shape: "You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die." Not if the beast form fulfills one of those three triggers, but if the druid does so. The druid's beast form is not dead, the druid is.

4) Similar arguments follow for spells like Sleep (Unconscious causes reversion, but the druid is still Unconscious when they revert).

EDIT: I will also directly reply to LordVanDerp:


Did you actually read my post? At no point did I equate death with 0 hp.
Remember: killing the beast doesn't kill the druid.


You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.

Killing the beast absolutely kills the druid. You don't kill the beast form of the druid, you kill the druid. You don't render the beast form of a druid unconscious, you render the druid unconscious. You don't drop the beast form to 0 HP, you drop the druid to 0 HP (and then has specific rules for carryover that, presumably, are the specific rule to the massive damage auto-killing smaller forms).


They absolutely happen at the same time, as opposed to having the druid revert after.
Disintegrate only turns the target to dust if the target is at 0 or less HP after the damage, but since the druid isn't left at 0 they don't turn to dust.

You seem to forget the text of the spell:


A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10d6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated.

Disintegrate doesn't care if the person is at 0 HP after the damage is taken, it cares if the target is reduced to 0 HP as a result of the damage. Since said damage had to have reduced the druid to 0 HP in order to trigger the reversion, that means said clause has to have triggered.


Remember: Specific (wild shape rules) beats general (spell rules).
Also Remember: resolving both at once means resolving both at once, not resolving disintegrate first.

Spell rules are an example of a specific rule! When Disintegrate gives a clause on disintegrating a target when its damage drops the target to 0 HP, that is a specific rule overriding the general rule on dropping to 0 HP. Unless you have evidence that different levels of specificity without specific text exist (so any examples of text specifically overriding another set of rules does so because that is a specific rule overriding the general rule that the other specific rule gets to override the general rule), this argument has no merit.

[Fable Wright]

3) For PWK, we have the spell causing death in the druid, and death reverting a druid. Great, the druid reverts, but that doesn't change the fact that the druid is dead and so remains when they are brought back to normal. Let's re-read the appropriate sentence in Wild Shape: "You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die." Not if the beast form fulfills one of those three triggers, but if the druid does so. The druid's beast form is not dead, the druid is.

So, uh, question. When the beast drops to 0 hit points, the Druid is still at full. What happens to the Druid? The Druid didn't fall unconscious, drop to 0, or die.

Also. When you PWK the Druid, the Druid still has over 100HP. It's the beast form that has less. Why does PWK kill the higher-HP Druid and ignore the lower-HP animal form?

[RickAllison]

So, uh, question. When the beast drops to 0 hit points, the Druid is still at full. What happens to the Druid? The Druid didn't fall unconscious, drop to 0, or die.

Also. When you PWK the Druid, the Druid still has over 100HP. It's the beast form that has less. Why does PWK kill the higher-HP Druid and ignore the lower-HP animal form?

And that is where LordVonDerp is having an error as well. Re-read the Wild Shape section:


Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

You are just replacing your statistics with those of the beast. You aren't literally becoming that beast, you, the druid, are becoming the form of said beast. You still are the druid throughout the process.


When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed.

More text on how this is just a transformation, and that this is the druid taking on the beast's characteristics for his own. Still a druid.

So there you go, you never stopped being a druid. Good thing too, otherwise you would have to keep track of every beast you ever met because if you were literally becoming the beast and not just taking its form, the beasts would keep dying off. Instead, it is just a transformation that temporarily gives the druid new statistics to play with.

[Fable Wright]

And that is where LordVonDerp is having an error as well. Re-read the Wild Shape section:

Alright, done. I see where you're coming from now. I will now challenge your assertion:


0) Note that these points are made with the assumption that conditions persist when druids revert. This is based on conditions not being a statistic and that the only other aspect of a druid that changes upon reverting is specified to be HP. Thus if a druid is stunned by a monk and knocked down to 0 HP, they will remain stunned. If they are knocked prone and dropped to 0 HP, they remain prone. If you disagree with this assumption, please state so, as that drastically changes the logic of the argument.

At my table, conditions don't persist when Druids revert. But for the sake of argument, let's say they did.

I'm looking at Appendix A of my PHB now that lists all possible conditions one can fall under.

Where's the dead condition?

[RickAllison]

Alright, done. I see where you're coming from now. I will now challenge your assertion:



At my table, conditions don't persist when Druids revert. But for the sake of argument, let's say they did.

I'm looking at Appendix A of my PHB now that lists all possible conditions one can fall under.

Where's the dead condition?

I never claimed it was a condition. I claimed it was not a statistic (and so doesn't change with Wild Shape or reverting) and it is not HP (and so doesn't change for that clause either). Death is not related to Wild Shape in any way other than being a trigger for reverting.

The only possible way that a Druid does not stay dead is if you say that death is a statistic.

[Maxilian]

It would have to be something observable. You can't say that you react to a casting of the Disintegrate spell, at best you can say if you see someone cast a spell, of course it is debatable how much one would know when someone else is casting (See countless Counterspell arguments).

That's completely true, and IMHO the reaction should be based around the process of casting (the hand gesture and all that) not the cast itself, because the reaction always go after the X condition is meet, and if the X condition is meet in this case, the effect of the spell will apply before the druid change forms (The players is unlikely to know what spell they are casting at the moment, but its quite useful when it happens to be a recurring enemy -Sometimes players prepare to Y enemy)

[Maxilian]

Can we try to evade the Desintegrate / FoD debate? in the end, we already have an errata about it (and thousands of threads about it), if you don't agree with it, don't worry, noone is going to hold it against you, but in the end, we are just derailing the thread

[ruy343]

Guys, if we're playing the hardest-to-kill game, I think that you're missing one of the best possibilities:

Wizard 20.

The level 17 feature that grants the wizard two signature spells from levels 1-2, which they're allowed to cast as often as they would like.

My hypothetical wizard has decided to take the Rope Trick and Invisibility spells, and follows the school of conjuration.

At all times, he carries a conjured rope, with which he can cast rope trick at a moment's notice and scoot inside. While there, he takes a short rest (recovering any hit points lost from an ambush) and sorts out his plan from there. At any moment, he can remove the rope from existence (since it's conjured), preventing anyone from following him up. At any time, he can cast invisibility and leave his rope trick behind (Rope Trick doesn't require concentration) and sneak away, casting any spells he needs.

Of course, the wizard isn't getting a whole lot done, but at least he'll be able to enjoy some peace and quiet away from the uber-barbarian who insists that his 280+ hit points makes him special.

[RickAllison]

Can we try to evade the Desintegrate / FoD debate? in the end, we already have an errata about it (and thousands of threads about it), if you don't agree with it, don't worry, noone is going to hold it against you, but in the end, we are just derailing the thread

Indeed. The ultimate hardiness that makes such precautions most important is only at level 20, when the party is so well-known as champions of the Material Plane that counters like that are to be expected for all PCs. Otherwise, it is only dealing with one or two shapes per rest anyway. Still formidable, but doesn't require out-of-the-way spells to do so.

Druids will seriously want to pick up Resilient: Con (or Resilient: Wis if they start with a multiclass for Con), though. Throughout the MM are creatures with poison (Con saves) that knock creatures unconscious, as well as spells and other magically-oriented abilities that use Wisdom saves to cause the unconscious condition. Brutal thing to put on non-elemental Moon druid forms. Also, it better insulates him from wraiths and the like who would love to put nasty undead curses on the druid...

[Ashrym]

Let's see what the book says:
WILD Shape
" You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a Bonus Action on Your Turn. You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."
Automatically revert back to normal form on death or at <= 0 HP.

PWK:
"You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect (101 hp or more)."
Wild shape dies if it has less than 100 hp. Now, what happens to a wild shaped druid who dies? That's right, he reverts back to normal form with whatever health he had.

Disintegrate:
"A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10D6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated."

So what happens to a wild shaped druid at <=0 HP? That's right, the druid reverts back to normal and ceases to meet the conditions needed for disintegration.


So no, they don't work.

That's why the guy who clarifies the rules clarified that they do work. Sheesh.

[LordVonDerp]

Here are some of my thoughts on the druid with Disintegrate or PWK:

0) Note that these points are made with the assumption that conditions persist when druids revert. This is based on conditions not being a statistic and that the only other aspect of a druid that changes upon reverting is specified to be HP. Thus if a druid is stunned by a monk and knocked down to 0 HP, they will remain stunned. If they are knocked prone and dropped to 0 HP, they remain prone. If you disagree with this assumption, please state so, as that drastically changes the logic of the argument.CITATION NEEDED.



1) You cannot claim off-hand that a class ability is more specific than a spell unless it includes text to that effect. We know we have specific v. general rules, but we have no rules on varying specific-ness to rely on and so must conclude they are equally specific.
Except that class features always override spell rules.



2) For Disintegrate, both the ability and the spell have the same trigger, reaching 0 HP, and so trigger simultaneously since we have no rules covering this timing and both are automatic. This means that if the trigger for one occurs, the other has to occur as well (else the first one couldn't have activated). So one both disintegrates and reverts to druid form. Unfortunately, being rendered into "a pile of fine, gray dust" is not something that the Wild Shape ability changes upon reverting.
If they occur simultaneously then the druid never actually qualifies for being disintegrated.
Also wild shape specifically says that any extra damage carries over, so wildshape has to resolve before damage.



3) For PWK, we have the spell causing death in the druid, and death reverting a druid. Great, the druid reverts, but that doesn't change the fact that the druid is dead and so remains when they are brought back to normal. Let's re-read the appropriate sentence in Wild Shape: "You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die." Not if the beast form fulfills one of those three triggers, but if the druid does so. The druid's beast form is not dead, the druid is.
Until the druid reverts back to normal.



4) Similar arguments follow for spells like Sleep (Unconscious causes reversion, but the druid is still Unconscious when they revert).:
Citation needed.




Killing the beast absolutely kills the druid. You don't kill the beast form of the druid, you kill the druid.
Citation needed.



You don't render the beast form of a druid unconscious, you render the druid unconscious. You don't drop the beast form to 0 HP, you drop the druid to 0 HP (and then has specific rules for carryover that, presumably, are the specific rule to the massive damage auto-killing smaller forms).


Targets not at 0hp or less don't get disintegrated.




Disintegrate doesn't care if the person is at 0 HP after the damage is taken, it cares if the target is reduced to 0 HP as a result of the damage. Since said damage had to have reduced the druid to 0 HP in order to trigger the reversion, that means said clause has to have triggered.

And then revoked.



Spell rules are an example of a specific rule! When Disintegrate gives a clause on disintegrating a target when its damage drops the target to 0 HP, that is a specific rule overriding the general rule on dropping to 0 HP. Unless you have evidence that different levels of specificity without specific text exist (so any examples of text specifically overriding another set of rules does so because that is a specific rule overriding the general rule that the other specific rule gets to override the general rule), this argument has no merit.

Spells are a general rule, class features override spell rules.

[MeeposFire]

Actually neither spells or class abilities are naturally more specific than the other in general. Which one takes precedence depends on how they interact.

For instance a class ability that said you have resistance to force damage would work against magic missile but if we had a spell called improve missile and it said that it ignores force resistance then that spell would be more specific than the class ability and take precedence.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Where's the dead condition?

Is this a serious question? Dead is not a condition because they presumably thought it would be ridiculous to have to spell out what it means. Nevertheless it is a thing you can be, with specific effects to make you stop being it, Wild Shape not being one of those.

[RickAllison]

CITATION NEEDED.


Except that class features always override spell rules.


If they occur simultaneously then the druid never actually qualifies for being disintegrated.
Also wild shape specifically says that any extra damage carries over, so wildshape has to resolve before damage.


Until the druid reverts back to normal.

:
Citation needed.



Citation needed.



Targets not at 0hp or less don't get disintegrated.



And then revoked.



Spells are a general rule, class features override spell rules.

It is funny how you require the opposition to provide evidence while refusing to do so yourself... But I'll oblige. Also, cite your evidence that class features always override spell features. I will not be waiting with bated breath because I sincerely doubt you will find any.


While you are transformed, the following rules apply:

So the rules following this one are relevant to the forms. Great.


You
automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to
0 hit points, or die.

So we have three conditions for automatically reverting. The druid (note, not the beast form; it is specifically the druid who is affected by these conditions) can go unconscious (a condition), can drop to 0 HP (specific text on this), and can die (the wild card).


Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of
the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality,
and Intelligence, W isdom , and Charisma scores...

Okay, so the druid's statistics are replaced by those of the beast, and thus these statistics change back when the druid resumes normal form. What does that entail? The MM tells us what:


A monster's statistics, sometimes referred to as its stat
block, provide the essential information that you need
to run the monster...

Size
Type (including Tags)
Alignment
Armor Class
Hit Points
Speed
Ability Scores
Saving Throws
Skills
Vulnerabilities, Resistances, and Immunities
Senses
Languages
Challenge
Special Traits Special traits (which appear after a monster's challenge
rating but before any actions or reactions) are
characteristics that are likely to be relevant in a combat
encounter and that require some explanation. [Specific examples given are Spellcasting, Innate Spellcasting, and Psionics]
Actions
Reactions
Limited Usage
Equipment

Alright, so those are the things that are considered statistics. Pretty thorough, anything that is a property of the creature and is essential to run it fits in here. Is the druid being stunned a special trait and essential run it? I would hope not, otherwise that druid isn't a very threatening tank as he is perma-stunned. What about death? We don't actually have much information on this concept for 5e. One of the few things we do know about it, however, is that there is something in the transition that makes the assembly of matter that was once known as a creature into a corpse that is treated as an object. The passage of the soul or what-have-you, but a dead body is no longer a creature.

However that passage works, it would be very odd to say that death, the concept that renders the matter no longer a creature, is information essential to running said creature. And if it is information not essential to running said creature, it is not a statistic according to the game's definition. If it is not a statistic, it is not changed upon reverting to the druid's normal form. According to this portion of Wild Shape, dying would remain constant through a change.


W hen you transform, you assume the beast’s hit
points and Hit Dice. W hen you revert to your normal
form, you return to the number of hit points you had
before you transformed. However, if you revert as a
result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage
carries over to your normal form.

So when you hit 0 HP, you trigger an ability that reverts to normal form as a result of said reduction to 0. Disintegrate:


A creature targeted by this spell must make a
Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes
10d6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the
target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated.

So if this damage reduces the target to 0 HP, it disintegrates the target. If this is a property of the damage itself, there exists no question (the damage did reduce the druid to 0 HP, thus he becomes a fine, gray dust). If it is also a triggered ability on the damage, then both this and the Wild Shape trigger. The druid both becomes a gray dust and reverts to normal form (so he becomes a smaller pile of gray dust as it happens). This is because there is no requirement for the target to remain at 0 HP, just that the damage had reduced the target to 0.

End-result: Disintegrate and instant death abilities bypass druid defenses. Feel free to provide evidence against this claim, but the stated passages are firmly against the druid here.

[LordVonDerp]

It is funny how you require the opposition to provide evidence while refusing to do so yourself... But I'll oblige. Also, cite your evidence that class features always override spell features. I will not be waiting with bated breath because I sincerely doubt you will find any.



I didn't provide evidence because I'm not the one arguing against a fundamental aspect of the game. Every class feature is an exception to a rule. But if you insist, here's a short list:

Evasion : overrides Dex save for half
Shield Master : same as evasion

Half Orc's Relentless Endurance: allows a con save to negate disintegration (also anything else that reduces you to 0 HP)
Barbarian's get a better version of the same ability

Warlocks
Agonizing Blast
Devil's Sight
Eldritch Spear
Repelling blast.

Clerics
Basically every domain, though life is most notable.

Wizard
All the schools.



Fighter
Eldritch Knight stuff.


Plus anything else that interacts with spells at all.

[RickAllison]

I didn't provide evidence because I'm not the one arguing against a fundamental aspect of the game. Every class feature is an exception to a rule. But if you insist, here's a short list:

Evasion : overrides Dex save for half
Shield Master : same as evasion

Half Orc's Relentless Endurance: allows a con save to negate disintegration (also anything else that reduces you to 0 HP)
Barbarian's get a better version of the same ability

Warlocks
Agonizing Blast
Devil's Sight
Eldritch Spear
Repelling blast.

Clerics
Basically every domain, though life is most notable.

Wizard
All the schools.



Fighter
Eldritch Knight stuff.


Plus anything else that interacts with spells at all.

And they specifically note those abilities doing so. By specifically noting the interaction between those and the spells, they create a more specific ruling. Also, I have already noted this in my original logic, right here:


1) You cannot claim off-hand that a class ability is more specific than a spell unless it includes text to that effect. We know we have specific v. general rules, but we have no rules on varying specific-ness to rely on and so must conclude they are equally specific.

Yes, those abilities give specific text about how they interact with spells. Actually proves my point since if Wild Shape was supposed to override those spells, it would have text saying so.

Instead, we have text explaining how it only changes statistics and HP. Since being a fine, gray dust and being dead aren't statistics, and since damage reducing HP to 0 has no interaction or care whether something then increases the HP as the HP was reduced to 0, the text for Wild Shape has no conflict with the spells and so we don't need to even consider specific or general effects! Specific v. general is to determine resolution when effects are in opposition, but no such conflict occurs between Wild Shape and the appropriate spells.

Of course you would know that if you read more than the first sentence of my reply. I went into very explicit detail on how there exists no interaction between the ability and the spells, that the triggers and results of everything create no conflict because the results of the spells have no connection back to the changed portions of Wild Shape.

[Shaofoo]

Half Orc's Relentless Endurance: allows a con save to negate disintegration (also anything else that reduces you to 0 HP)
Barbarian's get a better version of the same ability


http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-july-2016

If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash? If disintegrate reduces you to 0 hit points, you’re killed outright, as you turn to dust. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can’t save you.

Seems like you never read the topic that directly pertains to the thread at hand. Seriously, are you trolling?

But of course just say that the makers of the game are mouth breathing idiots like anyone else that has had Sage Advice prove them wrong and we can continue in this little circle.

Also I don't really know what the entire post was on about, more credence that you are trolling.

To better explain what I think is the deal with the devs before you go the usual "BUT YOU DROP TO 1 HP" the ability says that if you drop to 0 HP AND are not killed outright. I would think that since you drop to 0 HP and are turned to dust then you would be technically killed outright because you still go to 0 HP. Basically if you drop to 0 HP and would be dying then you can say you drop to 1 hp but if you would die when you get to 0 HP then you just die.

[LordVonDerp]

Actually neither spells or class abilities are naturally more specific than the other in general. Which one takes precedence depends on how they interact.

For instance a class ability that said you have resistance to force damage would work against magic missile but if we had a spell called improve missile and it said that it ignores force resistance then that spell would be more specific than the class ability and take precedence.
That would be overriding the general rules for Resistance, though it would be weird for a spell to do that.

[LordVonDerp]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-july-2016

If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash? If disintegrate reduces you to 0 hit points, you’re killed outright, as you turn to dust. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can’t save you.
Relentless Endurance specifically prevents the half orc from falling to 0hp, so he can't be disintegrated.




Seems like you never read the topic that directly pertains to the thread at hand.
The topic at hand is about the hardest to kill character and by extension the wild shape rules, which some people seem to have misconceptions about, though I am happy to clear those up.


Seriously, are you trolling?Nope, I'm just helpfully informing people on the rules.



But of course just say that the makers of the game are mouth breathing idiots like anyone else that has had Sage Advice prove them wrong and we can continue in this little circle.
Sage advice is known for saying things that contradict the rules and even other sage advice rulings. Take the link in your own post for example: they claim that a creature reduced to 1 HP is disintegrated.



Also I don't really know what the entire post was on about, more credence that you are trolling.
Someone claimed that class features didn't necessarily override the general rule of a spell, though they didn't bother to actually make an argument for their position. I responded by pointing out that every class feature is an exception to a rule and then gave some examples of class features overriding rules for spells.
But of course if you had actually read it you would know that already; unless you're simply feigning ignorance.

[RickAllison]

To better explain what I think is the deal with the devs before you go the usual "BUT YOU DROP TO 1 HP" the ability says that if you drop to 0 HP AND are not killed outright. I would think that since you drop to 0 HP and are turned to dust then you would be technically killed outright because you still go to 0 HP. Basically if you drop to 0 HP and would be dying then you can say you drop to 1 hp but if you would die when you get to 0 HP then you just die.

Do note that the otherwise-similar Long Death Monk ability lacks that important clause! Because they are so intimately aware of death, they get to ignore the usual "but not killed outright" part and still get to remain at 1 HP through Disintegrate.

[Shaofoo]

Sage advice is known for saying things that contradict the rules and even other sage advice rulings. Take the link in your own post for example: they claim that a creature reduced to 1 HP is disintegrated.



This is all that I needed to hear, you have no desire to understand.

I already explained the rationale as to their ruling but hey it is better to ignore them when it is convenient.

Just in case you didn't read, you still go to 0 HP because you have to get to 0 HP in order to get to 1 HP but since you get to 0 HP then you die because Disintegrate says that you turn to dust when you get to 0 HP.


Do note that the otherwise-similar Long Death Monk ability lacks that important clause! Because they are so intimately aware of death, they get to ignore the usual "but not killed outright" part and still get to remain at 1 HP through Disintegrate.

I'd totally play a kung fu mote of dust.

[LordVonDerp]

This is all that I needed to hear, you have no desire to understand.
you have yet to make a legitimate argument. If you were to do so I would gladly listen.


I already explained the rationale as to their ruling but hey it is better to ignore them when it is convenient.

No, you didn't.


Just in case you didn't read, you still go to 0 HP because you have to get to 0 HP in order to get to 1 HP but since you get to 0 HP then you die because Disintegrate says that you turn to dust when you get to 0 HP.


Disintegration requires that the character actually be reduced to 0 HP: not reduced to 1 HP, not reduced to 0hp and healed, not reduced to 0hp and reverted to form that has more HP, but actually reduced to 0 HP.

[Shaofoo]

you have yet to make a legitimate argument. If you were to do so I would gladly listen.

No, you didn't.

.

So ignoring what I said and then saying if I had said anything you'd listen? Yep, I have been trolled. God, what a fool I was.