Whats better, EK 15/ Wizard 5 or EK 12/Wizard 8

[Bruno Carvalho]

For a gish with a bit more spellcasting than your straight EK20, which is better? Going for EK 15/Wizard 5 or EK12/Wizard 8? And why?

[Lollerabe]

I'd go EK 8 / abju wiz 12.

Gets you most of the sweet things from EK and a lot of casting

[CNagy]

EK 12 / Wiz 8, definitely, if you're picking between those two options. For tradition, the often-overlooked Enchanter's Instinctive Charm can be a brutal ability for a EK who frequently finds himself in a melee.

[Draco4472]

With the SCAG cantraips 'Green-Flame Blade' and 'Booming Blade' at your disposal, extra attack will be a little used feature. If you want a melee character with more magic then martial ability, I recommend the Bladesinger tradition from the same sourcebook. If you'rr insisting on EK levels, go no more then 4 and multiclass the rest with Bladesinger. Focus on Abjuration spells as EK, such as shield and mage armor, then pick up more of your blasting/utility as a Bladesinger.

Arcane Trickster is also a good choice if you want to go a stealth/face route.

[Tanarii]

I like:
EK 7 / Wiz 13 - level 8 slots, no 'dead' slot levels. Gets War Magic.
EK 10 / Wiz 10 - level 7 slots, no 'dead' slot levels. Gets Eldritch Strike & level 10 Arcane Tradition
EK 12 / Wiz 8 - level 6 slots, 1 'dead' slot level. But gets 3 attacks/rnd, if you prefer that to War Magic rotation.

By dead slot levels, I mean there is no slot gain from (for example) level 11 --> level 12 total multiclass caster levels.

Edit: I should be clear, the dead slot levels issue is at 20th, which isn't necessarily relevant. You're going to get dead slot levels as you level up regardless. What's really important is: what level should you go to as EK before you break into wizard? 7, 10 or 12?

[Citan]

For a gish with a bit more spellcasting than your straight EK20, which is better? Going for EK 15/Wizard 5 or EK12/Wizard 8? And why?
Hi!
I'll say 12/8 without hesitation.
I don't see how an extra feat and teleport on Action Surge could even remotely approach the value of Wizard's school's 6th level benefit and 3 full more levels of casting (including access to 4th level spells), with potentially all levels known for these levels. While also retaining a total number of ASI equal (or superior by one?) to what other single classes get.

More 3rd level slots and access to 4th levels opens so many interesting combinations, especially 4th levels.
For example, Greater Invisibility on a ranged EK, with Skulker feat (although it would certainly be of greater value on an Arcane Trickster).
Or just Slow on a bunch of enemies (action surge Attack 3 enemies, then cast Slow).
Or crit a poor humanoid (Attack, if still alive, Hold Person, then action surge Attack + bonus action attack).
Not even accounting for School benefits: Abjuration for a tank, Diviner for a striker, Bladesinger for a debuffer/controler, etc...

[Tanarii]

Hi!
I'll say 12/8 without hesitation.
I don't see how an extra feat and teleport on Action Surge could even remotely approach the value of Wizard's school's 6th level benefit and 3 full more levels of casting (including access to 4th level spells), with potentially all levels known for these levels. While also retaining a total number of ASI equal (or superior by one?) to what other single classes get.If you're going to do it it's probably because you want Wiz casting early on for faster slots, and are considering what you want to be your capstone. In other words, you're thinking about the journey, not the level 20 build alone.

For example:
Fighter 1 --> EK 7 --> Wiz 9 --> EK 11 (capstone 3 attacks)
Fighter 1 --> EK 7 --> Wiz 5 --> EK 15 (capstone Arcane Charge)
Fighter 1 --> EK 7 --> Wiz 2 --> EK 18 (capstone Improved War Magic)

[Specter]

I'd go EK 10/Abjurer 10. Extra Attack is not sooo important with War Magic in the game. Eldritch Strike is very important and profitable with spells like Slow, Hold Person, Blindness and even Tasha's. Hit them in the first round and spell away in the second.

Choosing from your options, I'd go EK15/Wiz 5, just for the fighter extra ASI. Take Tough to make up for the hp loss if you feel like it.

[Chaosvii7]

EK 6 / Wizard 14. I used it in my boyfriend's campaign and it worked wonderfully. With 6 fighter levels you get 2 ASIs, extra attack, and 2 levels' worth of multiclass spellcasting, which brings you up to 16th level spellcasting when you tack the wizard levels on. 14 Wizard gets you everything out of Abjuration, and lets you keep pace with other players in terms of ASIs.

[Tanarii]

I'd go EK 10/Abjurer 10. Extra Attack is not sooo important with War Magic in the game. Eldritch Strike is very important and profitable with spells like Slow, Hold Person, Blindness and even Tasha's. Hit them in the first round and spell away in the second.
Yeah, as I just said in another EK thread, breaking out of EK before 7 is a bad idea. War Magic is where it's at, especially if SCAG can trips are in play.

[Citan]

Yeah, as I just said in another EK thread, breaking out of EK before 7 is a bad idea. War Magic is where it's at, especially if SCAG can trips are in play.
Or not?
War Magic is a good feature for an unoptimized (feat-wise) Eldricht Knight. But any Fighter grabbing GWM or Sharpshooter would always do better than using his action on a cantrip, even if you use Booming Blade.
War Magic had been added part for fluff, part for making you feel less powerless when you had to use your action on a cantrip compared to your usual weapon attacks.
Sure, the addition of Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade makes it better. But it's still lesser or of comparable power to a Fighter's Extra Attack at +5(attack stat)+10(GWM/Sharp) until you get lvl 17th.

I agree its a good one for those who...
- are not interested at all with dealing damage with weapon attacks (=not building on feats or maxing attack stat).
- prefer bumping INT for spells anyways but want to keep the option of weapon attack as bonus action to get a decent damage per round when they can do so.
- want to put emphasis on using "soft control" cantrip with a bonus action weapon attack on every turn (obviously, you use the bonus action first to get the Eldricht Strike benefit), such as Acid Splash / Frostbite (ranged) or Thunderclap (melee).

For others, you get generally better use of your bonus action anyways, either using 3 attacks per Attack with GWM / Sharpshooter and the bonus action attack (Polearm Master / TWF / Crossbow Expert) or sustaining a damaging spell such as Flaming Sphere that uses the bonus action.
War Magic gives you a decent use of bonus action in some occasions, and is a good feature for a pure EK. But in a Wizard multiclass, it is really lackluster compared to a full level of spellcasting imo. Especially on a multiclass with Bladesinger which already gets Extra Attack built in: going also Fighter 7 means you waste both occurence of Extra Attack, while depriving yourself of three whole spellcaster levels, when you could just stop Fighter at 4 and just lose one ASI.
So the only reason to go up to Fighter 7 is because it's a required step to get the powerful Eldricht Strike, and when you get such feature, you really want to get another level to get 3rd attack (meaning potentially Eldricht Striking 4 enemies before a spell). ;)

I would have a much more nuanced view if another School was chosen instead. ;)

[Tanarii]

Or not?
War Magic is a good feature for an unoptimized (feat-wise) Eldricht Knight. But any Fighter grabbing GWM or Sharpshooter would always do better than using his action on a cantrip, even if you use Booming Blade. Agreed. I cut my comment short in this EK thread short, but as I said in the other, if you're adding in GWM (or as you say, sharpshooter), it's a different matter.


War Magic had been added part for fluff, part for making you feel less powerless when you had to use your action on a cantrip compared to your usual weapon attacks.
Sure, the addition of Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade makes it better. But it's still lesser or of comparable power to a Fighter's Extra Attack at +5(attack stat)+10(GWM/Sharp) until you get lvl 17th. It works well with any cantrip, compared to 2 attacks, unless you have a significant source of bonus damage to your physical attack. It really depends on what you're focusing on. But if you're going to break out to wizard for spells, you're probably not optimizing attacks.

Edit: fix quote tags

[Specter]

With SCAG cantrips, you get practically the same damage you would with three attacks, plus a rider effect for tanking/multiple targets. So you deal good damage and still get to do something useful. It's specially good if you plan on multiclassing Evoker for the added INT, but that's way down the road.

The fact that War Magic facilitates a play style (sword and board) doesn't mean it hinders others. Even if you don't use SCAG cantrips, there will be times where you'll strategize with other stuff (chill touch vs. Undead, shocking grasp to flee, etc.). And multiclassing Wizard you'll get many cantrips.

[Citan]

With SCAG cantrips, you get practically the same damage you would with three attacks, plus a rider effect for tanking/multiple targets. So you deal good damage and still get to do something useful. It's specially good if you plan on multiclassing Evoker for the added INT, but that's way down the road.

The fact that War Magic facilitates a play style (sword and board) doesn't mean it hinders others. Even if you don't use SCAG cantrips, there will be times where you'll strategize with other stuff (chill touch vs. Undead, shocking grasp to flee, etc.). And multiclassing Wizard you'll get many cantrips.
I'm sorry but I won't bother counter-argumenting when you apparently didn't read the whole exchange with your whole attention (keywords hint: feats, spell levels). Tanarii, which I was replying too, got the point so that's enough for me. ;)

Agreed. I cut my comment short in this EK thread short, but as I said in the other, if you're adding in GWM (or as you say, sharpshooter), it's a different matter.

It works well with any cantrip, compared to 2 attacks, unless you have a significant source of bonus damage to your physical attack. It really depends on what you're focusing on. But if you're going to break out to wizard for spells, you're probably not optimizing attacks.

Edit: fix quote tags
Well, I agree with you, but strangely enough that's why our opinions differ on the value of War Magic. ^^
For someone who wants to optimize attacks, War Magic will be insufficient as a basis when you can go up to Fighter 11 and get 3 attacks on which to stack a feat, not even accounting for a potential Haste extra attack.

For someone who prefer focusing on spellcasting, mainly taking Bladesong for extra resilience on concentration, taking 3 more levels of spellcasting seems of much better value to me, especially since you can get many good spells which can be cast or sustained with a bonus action (Flaming Sphere, Melf's Minute Meteor, Bigby's Hand, Misty Step, Animate Objects, and there are probably a few more).

When you are Fighter 4 and start Wizard, you can get Flaming Sphere at character level 7! ;) You globally get access to powerful spells much earlier (especially when you are beyond character lvl 10 or so, you gain levels much slower so it really makes a difference).
In the end, you would have the same number of level 1/2/3/4/5 slots, but big difference is that Wizard 16 gets access to up to 8th level spells (Clone, Feeblemind, Incendiary Cloud, etc), and would have at least 2 levels to play with 7th level spells.

Fighter 7 / Wizard 13 would instead...
- Get up to 7th spells, which is still nice (Simulacrum, Finger of Death) but as a capstone, and no 8th spells.
- Would also have wasted Extra Attack.
- Would get significantly less spell slots (counting also the Wizard recovery)
- Wouldn't get +INT on attacks (which is kinda sad for someone that wants to get weapon attack as bonus action that much, and maxed INT for spellcasting).
- And since he would have focused on casting anyways, he probably wouldn't have such a good attack stat anyways, or would have maxed attack stat but no feat.
>>> Therefore, War Magic is really not a defining feature, and certainly not enough to justify a whole 3 levels late for anyone wanting to be a spellcaster.

It is just a nice bonus (action? ;)) for EK in general, and a great feature for some niche builds (such as EK / Sorcerer multiclass).

[Specter]

I'm sorry but I won't bother counter-argumenting when you apparently didn't read the whole exchange with your whole attention (keywords hint: feats, spell levels). Tanarii, which I was replying too, got the point so that's enough for me. ;)

Oh, I did, I only answered to what I directly disagree with. As I said, even if you use your bonus action with GWM/SS/CE/whatever, there will still be situations where you will use War Magic, as stated, unless you have no interest at all in cantrips, in which case there's no reason to play an EK.

[Ashrym]

Between the choices, EK12/Wiz8 if the goal is spell selection. I agree that 3 more levels of fighter isn't giving as much as 3 more levels of wizard. MC rules give up to 6th level slots as a 12th level caster and 4th level spells available in the book is nice compared to the EK15/Wiz5 who would lose 6th level slots as a 10th level caster and only know 3rd level spells. The bonus ASI from fighter lost is regained on the 8th level wizard so a use of indomitable, arcane charge, and some hp aren't much of a trade off compared to spell slots and spells known.

I've seen some comments about lower EK but I think eldritch strike is worth it for 10 levels in EK. That makes a possibly lower spell DC more palatable with the likely lower INT than a wiz typically has.

A similar style can be found in the valor bard if a person is open to additional suggestions. Battle magic and magical secrets allows for a cantrip followed by an attack similar to war magic but includes the option of eldritch blast (via secrets) or vicious mockery (for additional defense), or SCAG cantrips (via secrets) plus an attack, or an actual spell plus an attack. A valor bard might launch meteor swarm or wish and then follow with an attack. Spell selection won't cover the wizard list following that route but is could include some cleric / pally buffs instead. Definitely access to higher level spells than either option mentioned in the OP.

2cp

[Lollerabe]

I'm playing a GWM EK that just hit lvl 7. war magic with GFB is better than the attack action almost always unless very specific criteria is met.

I got 18 strength, 14 ont and a d10 weapon so attacking would be 2d10 + 4 let's assume I proc GWM BA so 3d10 + 12 = 28,5 avg damg.

GFB that bounces is 2d8 + 2 = 11 avg damg plus 2d10 + 8 = 19 for a total of 30 damg. So in order for me to deal more damg with the attack action I not only have to proc cleave, I also gotta be quite certain that I can apply -5/+10 to the BA attack before I come out on top.