Eldritch Knight Multiclass

[DracoKnight]

Where is the best place to multiclass from Eldritch Knight into Bladesinger? And how many levels would you take of both??

[Arkhios]

Where is the best place to multiclass from Eldritch Knight into Bladesinger? And how many levels would you take of both??

I would think that earliest point would be after 6th EK level ...unless you can live without additional ASI and with 1/3 missing from your total Spellcasting level, in which case after 5th once you get Extra Attack - which is best taken as early as possible.

[DracoKnight]

I would think that earliest point would be after 6th EK level ...unless you can live without additional ASI and with 1/3 missing from your total Spellcasting level, in which case after 5th once you get Extra Attack - which is best taken as early as possible.

Okay. How many levels would you take of both? And if you're going to stick it out to 6th level, is it worth it to wait until 7th level to pick up War Magic?

[Specter]

After 7, fir War Magic. That'a big difference in attacks and combat strategy. After that, I'd take 5 BS levels, and the rest on EK. Extra Attack won't stack anyway.

[RSP]

Depends what you're going for and what level you're topping out at. Really you just need 2 levels of Bladesinger if all you want are the martial benefits of its signature ability. If you just want Action Surge, take two in Fighter and move on.

[DanyBallon]

Here's an unoptimized analyze I wrote in an other thread. I tried to show wath you get and wath you loose for some multiclass combination.


Going EK10/BS10, would let you get both Eldritch strike (EK) and Song of defense (BS) wich would be quite useful to soak up damage since your AC won't be too high (low dex, not enough int, and restricted to light armor). You get as well war magic, and a single extra attack. Also it would allow you access to 7th level spell slots, and be able to cast 5th level wizard spells.

A more fightery build would be EK15/BS5, where you get 2 extra attacks, war magic, eldritch strike, two uses of indominatable, a total of 6 ASI, 5th level spell slots, and can cast 3rd level wizards spells. You'll still lack on the AC side, but with your ASI you can pump up your Int up to the max for a +5 to AC while bladesinging and max Int will assure you that your spells will be more potent (higher attack bonus and spell DC)

Lastly, if you go the more wizardry route, EK isn't as usefull if you don't get war magic, and to get it, you need to forgo Song of victory, BS14/F6 will give you 6 ASI, champions gives you improved crit, battlemasters let you have superiority dices, and a selection of maneuver, while EK boost your maximum spell slots level and you can bound to a weapon. Going BS16/F4 gives you all the same options with one les ASI, but in exchange you have access to 8th level spells as a wizard.

In all the case, you still benefit from action surge, second wind, and you can select a fighting style. Also, with the light armor restriction and low dex, mage armor and shield, especially the later, would be nice to have in your spellbook.

Btw, these are far from optimized options, its just to let you know what you get and what you lose at certain threshold and how it will affect the playstyle of such a character.

See this thread for more opinions on the matter
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487980-Eldritch-Knight-Bladesinger-Multiclass

[Citan]

Where is the best place to multiclass from Eldritch Knight into Bladesinger? And how many levels would you take of both??
Hi!
I'd say that for such a concept, while it will be difficult to make a build that don't get a redundant Extra Attack, it will probably be worth the loss.

I'd recommend Eldricht Knight 11 / Bladesinger 9, because you get Eldricht Strike and 3rd attack, which both can be used in very good ways however you look at it. You still get spells up to lvl 5. Perfect if you put emphasis on weapon attacks and debuff/AOE combos with Eldricht Strike. Note that you lose 2 ASIs though, so it may be too hard a price to pay depending on your starting stats and desired feats.

The alternative is Eldricht Knight 4 / Bladesinger 16: you don't need to get a redundant Extra Attack, and you still get one ASI. The loss of a third attack is compensated (a bit lesser or plain better, depending on your build) by the +INT on weapon attacks. And you get a much larger array of spells.
Eldricht Knight is mainly here for fluff, dual bounded weapons, action surge and proficiencies.

Both are very good, although I'd recommend the former only for experienced players (because you want to create combos with Eldricht Strike, it requires more thinking than just bashing away), the other being more easy to play (closer to a normal Bladesinger, just better resilience, and you retain your normal number of ASI). ;)

[Arkhios]

Looking at BS, I would actually leave from EK at exactly 6th level, if I had above average intelligence to start with, because in the long run that BS capstone ability is quite nice.

Besides, I find it rather counter-productive to go from 1/3 caster to full caster and not even try to get higher than 3rd (or even 4th) level spells.

[Tanarii]

EK to wizard break points are at 7 (War Magic), 10 (Eldritch Strike) or 12 (Feats + caster level 4). You definitely don't want to go before 7 unless you're doing GWM or some other really high damage per attack build, because War Magic is totally tits.

[CNagy]

If you're going to be in the party frontline, you can justify hitting 5th in EK and then multiclass to Wizard. Because at 5th level, you make the decision as to whether you want War Magic at 7th level (a solid choice) or Bladesong (particularly good if you're boosting Int). After you get one, switch to the class that gets you the other.

As for total levels, I've never been sold on taking more than 12 levels in Fighter. EK12/BS8, EK10/BS10, or EK8/BS12.

[Tanarii]

As for total levels, I've never been sold on taking more than 12 levels in Fighter. EK12/BS8, EK10/BS10, or EK8/BS12.
EK 8 / Wiz 12 is gaining an ASI/feat, but being one level of spell slot behind compared to EK 7 /Wiz 13. (Ultimately you're giving up an 8th level spell slot.) I prefer the faster access to higher level spell slots (since you already got a bonus ASI at Fighter 6), but YMMV.

[Klorox]

I don't think this multiclass is a good one at all.

Multiple multi-attacks are redundant. Eldritch knights work best with heavy armor, bladesingers in light.

EK with some wizard levels works great though. I'm a big fan of diviner or abjuror.

[D.U.P.A.]

If you want Fighter/Wizard multiclass, go rather for abjuration school. You hardly gain anything interesting from bladesinging. If you want to go Dex lightly armored fighter, then just go straight Bladesinger.

[CantigThimble]

If you want Fighter/Wizard multiclass, go rather for abjuration school. You hardly gain anything interesting from bladesinging. If you want to go Dex lightly armored fighter, then just go straight Bladesinger.

This seems about right. If you're set on some fighter levels with your bladesinger I'd take just 2.

[DracoKnight]

I don't think this multiclass is a good one at all.

Multiple multi-attacks are redundant. Eldritch knights work best with heavy armor, bladesingers in light.

EK with some wizard levels works great though. I'm a big fan of diviner or abjuror.

This is not helpful. I have determined that I want to Multiclass Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger. I am set on this. Telling me I shouldn't isn't helpful.

[Klorox]

This is not helpful. I have determined that I want to Multiclass Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger. I am set on this. Telling me I shouldn't isn't helpful.

Maybe the better answer is "why are you set on this multiclass?"

If you're set on it, decide on dipping either fighter or wizard 2 and the rest in the other class.

[DracoKnight]

Maybe the better answer is "why are you set on this multiclass?"

Because I'm trying to recreate the Bladesinger of earlier editions.


If you're set on it, decide on dipping either fighter or wizard 2 and the rest in the other class.

Hmmmmmm...maybe the real answer is using the Unearthed Arcana for Prestige Classes to recreate the bladesinger as a prestige class.

[Klorox]

Because I'm trying to recreate the Bladesinger of earlier editions.

If you're set on it, decide on dipping either fighter or wizard 2 and the rest in the other class.

Hmmmmmm...maybe the real answer is using the Unearthed Arcana for Prestige Classes to recreate the bladesinger as a prestige class.[/QUOTE]

Which bladesinger are you talking about?

I'm most familiar with the multiclassed fighter/mage bladesinger kit from 2e.

If you want to recreate that, your best bet is very simple: play a bladesinger from SCAG. Single classed, that's it. The fighter class gives you nothing that the 2e class had that isn't already covered by the bladesinger class in SCAG.

[djreynolds]

This just coming from a powergaming perspective, please enjoy what you play that is the number one rule

The eldritch knight is cool, this is a class that begs to have access somehow to divine favor.

Why are you playing this class? What is it about it that you couldn't get out of a paladin?

War magic and Eldritch strike are the reason. Casting in heavy armor and being one of the true ultimate tanks/ walls.

IMO, if you want to play an armored caster, you want that 18th level class feature, then just take a level of cleric or fighter and be done with it.

I think bladesinger goes better with rogue and ranger and monk, just in terms of access to skills that like a higher dex and int modifier and movement

I hear bladesinger 14/ fighter X, but 18th level spell mastery is awesome.

When I play an Eldritch Knight I will sprinkle in a level or 2 of wizard, for some utility or even cleric since I have a good wisdom as a fighter.

I have heavy armor, and I might just keep a 10 or even an 8 in dex. My cantrip becomes my ranged attack. You can get by with a max strength, and 16s in wisdom and intelligence and war caster if you really want a shield.

I like Eldritch Knight/ War Cleric. I think you will get more from cleric in terms of tanking and being the rock for the party. A fighter with a high wisdom, even with resilient wisdom is not unheard of.

Any wizard wanting to go to higher levels will want access to spell mastery.

[Citan]

I don't think this multiclass is a good one at all.

Multiple multi-attacks are redundant. Eldritch knights work best with heavy armor, bladesingers in light.

EK with some wizard levels works great though. I'm a big fan of diviner or abjuror.


If you want Fighter/Wizard multiclass, go rather for abjuration school. You hardly gain anything interesting from bladesinging. If you want to go Dex lightly armored fighter, then just go straight Bladesinger.


This is not helpful. I have determined that I want to Multiclass Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger. I am set on this. Telling me I shouldn't isn't helpful.
Agreed, especially when they are wrong. ;)
You gain plenty of things with that particular multiclass, you just have to decide what your end goal is.

1. Mage Warrior
As much spellcasting as possible > Fighter 4, you don't waste anything but you still get Constitution and equipment proficiencies, Action Surge, Fighting Style and magic weapon. Perfect if you envision yourself as a Mage Warrior, wasting enemies with weapon attacks (with +INT) while sustaining Haste in a very stable manner (thanks to Concentration proficiency + Bladesong) and unleashing some self-buffs / non-concentration debuff/offense at times.

2. Arcane Disabler
AOE debuffer gish: you want to go up to Fighter 10 at least for Eldricht Strike, so might as well go Fighter 11. You won't get spells beyond level 5, but you still get some very nice AOE debuffs and damage spells, which you can make more reliable by attacking your targets with weapon beforehand.
The loss of +INT to attacks is compensated by the 3rd attack, and overall the 2nd attack redundancy is a worthy loss for everything you gain beyond. You also get an alternative to Extra Attack with War Magic if you want to make a particular single-target debuff combo.
And you still get all aforementioned features of Fighter 4, meaning all concentration debuffs will be easily sustained even if you get some damage (which should not happen so often, between potential Mirror Image and AC 13+5+5 and reaction Shield).

[SillyPopeNachos]

EK 3 then the rest in BS has always seemed fun. A fighting style, better armor, -1 ASI, action surge, caster lv. 18, and you can still learn any wizard spell at level 20.

[Tanarii]

Agreed, especially when they are wrong. ;)
You gain plenty of things with that particular multiclass, you just have to decide what your end goal is.Nothing they said is particularly wrong. Blade singer isn't a particularly good choice of school for an EK multi classing into wizard. The school features are fairly redundant, and in some cases you actually gain nothing from them at all.

If someone is determined to do it, as the OP is, more power to him. But the other posters were commenting on the viability of different school specific Wizard class features, not on mulitclassing in general.

[Citan]

Nothing they said is particularly wrong. Blade singer isn't a particularly good choice of school for an EK multi classing into wizard. The school features are fairly redundant, and in some cases you actually gain nothing from them at all.

If someone is determined to do it, as the OP is, more power to him. But the other posters were commenting on the viability of different school specific Wizard class features, not on mulitclassing in general.
Sorry but no. As I demonstrated, only the Extra Attack feature is redundant, and only if you want to make a balanced build because you really want Eldricht Strike or Third Attack.
All other features of Bladesinger are of great use for an Eldricht Knight, be it the extra damage, the slot-burning damage block or the extra good Concentration saves meaning the character can actually wade into melee with Haste without worrying too much about finding himself powerless because of a bad enemy attack.

I'm not saying other choices of school would be bad. I'm refuting the wrong idea that Bladesinger brings nothing of particular value to an Eldricht Knight.

[CNagy]

Nothing they said is particularly wrong. Blade singer isn't a particularly good choice of school for an EK multi classing into wizard. The school features are fairly redundant, and in some cases you actually gain nothing from them at all.

This brings to mind the quote: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all of the others." There are few good choices for the Eldritch Knight who is going to stay in class at least long enough for War Magic and Eldritch Strike, and Blade Singer is one of them. It's basically Enchantment, Evocation, and Blade Singer (more or less in that order). Blade Singer has the added bonus of making a lightly armored Eldritch Knight less of a sacrifice concept, since getting Blade Song twice per short rest effectively means getting to use it almost all the time.

[Arkhios]

People are making multiclass builds with two martials which would gain extra attack multiple times: no problem.
Someone wants to multiclass a fighter with bladesinger, resulting (likewise) a redundant extra attack: hell is set lose.

Go figure.

[Tanarii]

Sorry but no. As I demonstrated,
Sorry but yes. You demonstrated nothing showing otherwise.

Two can play at this silly game of yours.

Edit: Okay that was unnecessarily insulting, and I apologize. I'm going to cop an excuse, I hadn't had my morning coffee yet.

But your demonstration doesn't disprove (for lack of a better word) that the BS feature add the least value to a EK multiclass. They already get Con proficiency, and possibly advantage from War Caster since it's a common feat for many EK builds. They already have high AC, backed up further by Shield spells on spot need. They already get 2 attacks. They already get better than Light Armor proficiency, and all martial weapon proficiencies. BS school adds very little to a MC Fighter compared to many other schools.

Edit 2: Although I probably should keep that to a different thread, since the OP specifically wants to build BS. /facepalm

[Citan]

People are making multiclass builds with two martials which would gain extra attack multiple times: no problem.
Someone wants to multiclass a fighter with bladesinger, resulting (likewise) a redundant extra attack: hell is set lose.

Go figure.
You feel this incoherence probably because the former and latter reactions come from different people. ^^

[Klorox]

People are making multiclass builds with two martials which would gain extra attack multiple times: no problem.
Someone wants to multiclass a fighter with bladesinger, resulting (likewise) a redundant extra attack: hell is set lose.

Go figure.

If I ever saw any multiclass build that had extra attack from more than one source I'd call it redundant.

Extra attack is a huge ability. It helps any character than expects to do some fighting, and it helps a lot.

[Arkhios]

If I ever saw any multiclass build that had extra attack from more than one source I'd call it redundant.

Extra attack is a huge ability. It helps any character than expects to do some fighting, and it helps a lot.

Yes, but it's only one dead level. Not really a big loss compared to the other benefits from multiclassing (which are many, regardless of class).

[djreynolds]

The big thing, IMO, about EK is heavy armor. This means you can dump dex to 8, and use a shield and have 20 AC minimum. No long or short or 1 minute stuff, you always have a 20 AC.

Your spells, IMO, are there to buff your defense and damage opponents. I like the class a lot.

I think you are better off taking some wizard for utility and to expand your spells and slots, and cleric will provide additional buffs and spells, an EK with a 14 wisdom isn't unheard of.

Bladesinger is a nice addition for a dex based EK, and could make a nice skirmisher. Levels are up to you, an EK could just grab 2 levels of bladesinger for bladesong.

War magic and eldritch strike works with any spell, maybe multiclass cleric. Access to divine favor if you take war cleric and bonus action attack, good for S&B EK. It is a good place to look.

[Citan]

Yes, but it's only one dead level. Not really a big loss compared to the other benefits from multiclassing (which are many, regardless of class).
It's not even a dead level in fact, because whatever multiclass combination you make you get other features (although in some specific combinations, you do gain less than in others). ;)

And it's not like it was written black on white in multiclass rules, so one is informed beforehand. But people are just greedy. XD

[Arkhios]

It's not even a dead level in fact, because whatever multiclass combination you make you get other features (although in some specific combinations, you do gain less than in others). ;)

And it's not like it was written black on white in multiclass rules, so one is informed beforehand. But people are just greedy. XD

True, you nailed it. People who want everything pronto should ease out "a little".

You don't "win" in D&D. Even if you don't get something at one level you're probably still doing just fine, or even great.

[SillyPopeNachos]

People are making multiclass builds with two martials which would gain extra attack multiple times: no problem.
Someone wants to multiclass a fighter with bladesinger, resulting (likewise) a redundant extra attack: hell is set lose.

Go figure.

Yeah, seems a little silly. My main concern on cross-classing full casters has always been missing out on 9th level spells, if the campaign is going all the way to 20.

[Klorox]

Yes, but it's only one dead level. Not really a big loss compared to the other benefits from multiclassing (which are many, regardless of class).

I disagree.

If you're trying to optimize, there are no dead levels.

And if you're trying to recreate the 2e bladesinger, being a single class bladesinger is the closest thing.

2e bladesingers got multiple attacks per round, but they got them slower than single classed fighters. They didn't wear armor, unless they were lucky enough to find elven chain, which was the only armor a multiclassed magic used could wear and still cast spells. They were good spellcasters, but not quite as good as single classed casters (and every wizard in 5e gets some kind of casting bonus, while the bladesinger is getting fighting bonuses).

[Specter]

It all boils down to what OP wants. If you want to be an EK with more spells, go EK 15/Bladesinger 5. 3rd-level spells of varied selection, from all corners of schools, upcast as 6th-level spells. If you want a Wizard with War Magic and/or Eldritch Strike, you'll leave one extra attack lost in the wind.

[CNagy]

And if you're trying to recreate the 2e bladesinger, being a single class bladesinger is the closest thing.

What? That isn't remotely true.



2e bladesingers got multiple attacks per round, but they got them slower than single classed fighters. They didn't wear armor, unless they were lucky enough to find elven chain, which was the only armor a multiclassed magic used could wear and still cast spells. They were good spellcasters, but not quite as good as single classed casters (and every wizard in 5e gets some kind of casting bonus, while the bladesinger is getting fighting bonuses).

They got multiple attackers per round "slower" than single-classed fighters because they were Fighter/Mages who leveled up slower than single-classed characters. They received extra attacks at the same level as every other warrior class. They could wear up to studded leather or elven chain but could only cast in the latter until the Player's Option books made armored spellcasting a thing. The thing is, though, that these previous two points are not attributes of Bladesingers, they are attributes of 2nd Edition AD&D.

They weren't quite as good single-classed spellcasters for the same reason that they gained extra attacks slower than single-classed warriors. They weren't quite as good for the same reason Fighter/Wizards aren't quite as good at fighting as Fighters or wizarding as Wizards in 5e: Bladesinger is a multiclass concept.

The reason I personally dislike the 5e Bladesinger is that they are about the furthest thing away from 2e Bladesingers in concept. The original Bladesinger was the equivalent of an Elven Paladin, a one-Elf army champion. It was not a wizard who could play a little with swords if it came down to it. They were special maneuver virtuosos and recreating them faithfully basically requires multiclassing.

[Klorox]

What? That isn't remotely true.




They got multiple attackers per round "slower" than single-classed fighters because they were Fighter/Mages who leveled up slower than single-classed characters. They received extra attacks at the same level as every other warrior class. They could wear up to studded leather or elven chain but could only cast in the latter until the Player's Option books made armored spellcasting a thing. The thing is, though, that these previous two points are not attributes of Bladesingers, they are attributes of 2nd Edition AD&D.

They weren't quite as good single-classed spellcasters for the same reason that they gained extra attacks slower than single-classed warriors. They weren't quite as good for the same reason Fighter/Wizards aren't quite as good at fighting as Fighters or wizarding as Wizards in 5e: Bladesinger is a multiclass concept.

The reason I personally dislike the 5e Bladesinger is that they are about the furthest thing away from 2e Bladesingers in concept. The original Bladesinger was the equivalent of an Elven Paladin, a one-Elf army champion. It was not a wizard who could play a little with swords if it came down to it. They were special maneuver virtuosos and recreating them faithfully basically requires multiclassing.

Actually, it's perfectly true.

I understand the differences in multiclassing through the editions.

The fact is that gaining extra attack a level later than a single classed fighter perfectly represents the slower progression of a multiclassed character.

If you're trying to imitate a bladesinger of an earlier edition, you need to wear light or no armor. The 5e bladesinger does this.

If you want to be a fighter/wizard in 5e and wear heavy armor, you can do that as well. But the bladesinger bonuses in 5e don't work in heavy armor, which is why the 5e bladesinger imitates the 2e multiclassed kit.

[BillyBobShorton]

I like your idea. There was a post that said you gain nothing of note from bladesinger mage class. I.disagree. The song alone, plus the fighty sword perks, oh, and any mage spell you want plus the EK spells. I think this is actually a killer way to boost EK. With some of the armor restrictions involving BS, though, you'll want some kind of "get outta jail free" perk/feat/extra spell. I'd recommend Wood Elf for extra movement, and the mobile feat. 45' movement and no att/opp can allow you to "stick & move" if you have enough spaces. Combined with Booming Blade, you now damage them when they DO try to come back after you if you're only 10-15 feet away.

Having Shield ready would also help a lot. Or the EK war magic or whatever it's called, running in, slamming them with a weapon, running back, and using a handy ray of frost to slow them a little might leave enough distance to prevent many retaliatory hits.

It seems some archetypes are far better suited to multiclass, the EK, BS, and Arcane Trickster being the top 3, IMO. I am currently using an AT woodelf/Arcana Cleric with said mobile feat, and combined with cunning action, can basically move 135' / turn and avoid opp. attacks. You could sort of cop this in a real pinch (fighting a giant)with action surge, depending on DM rule for movement/turn vs an action (dash).

Adding in Cleric perks (esp arcana, which gives you 2 wizard cantrips that scale w/level and use Wisdom as your att bonus/dmg bonus), I have what basically amounts to a Cleric/Thief/Mage. Used cleverly with things like familiars and the uber mage hand, he is a great utility player,support character, and damage dealer-not to mention speed like the Flash. EK/BS can also enjoy similar versatility and eventually become one of the most useful & powerful players in your party. Picking the right combo's of feats/ASI's can also make you extremely lethal when coupled with the right spells. Mage Slayer, War Caster, Sentinel all jive really well for the aim it seems you are after.

My advice is to be careful and pick your spots early on when it comes to encouters. Don't tank thinking you have some unstoppable super fighter/mage with low hp. The awesome will come, but it requires patience and strategy; esp in battle. But when you start "mapping" you character and seeing how things can really synergize with 1/3rd casters and full casters in later levels, as well as ASI's/Feats and class features, you realize that having to be a little timid early pays off bigtime with a unique master of destruction and magic. I like your build idea. Hope that helps.