Why is O'Chul ....[spoilers]

[TheRiov]

...still alive?

Miko should have been higher HP than O'Chul given that she was 'strongest paladin in the Saphire Guard' --she didnt lose that when she went grey.

O'Chul was point blank just as Miko was when the gate detonated.
O'Chul was paralyzed so could not avoid or apply evasion damage.
O'Chul plummeted from the top of the tower and was THROWN all the way outside the city. He presumably took at least as much damage as Roy did from falling--and I guarntee that the Meteor Swarm/Finger of Death that Roy Soaked was less overall damage than being blasted point blank from the gate exploding.

SO: Why is O'Chul still alive? (other than a character shield)

[Tredrick]

Well, for one thing, he was not bisected by a throne. For all we know the direct explosion did zero damage being entirely magical in nature.

[TheRiov]

Nah. it clearly did physical damage (Ie shattering the tower, knocking over several other towers, lighting the city on fire)

[Fred Fumblrol]

I think the only reason Miko was killed in the blast is because the throne itself cut her in two. Since O'Chul got blown toward the plain like he did, I expected Miko to get blown out into the sea, or possibly landing on Hinjos junk. She still lingered enough to talk to Soon, so the blast didn't kill her outright.

[Radar]

Who said he is still alive? Most probably paralysis spell is still working, so the difference is not that visible.

If he is alive, then it would be due to his higher level (and thus HP). Besides Miko was still concious, when she was cut in half, so she was not more then 10 HP below 0 (or something like that was in D&D - correct me if i'm wrong). This means that there was not much more needed, to survive the explosion.

[Spiryt]

Well it's one quite popular theory: (I supprot that theory):

He is not alive.

Everything in castle was destroyed, but explosion didn't shattered bodies too much ( As you said Miko was probably cut by throne, not ripped by explosion force).

Lich touch is permanent, although it is not clear if victim is still stiff after death. Assuming that yes, it is, O- Chul is now numb corpse, which can travel great distances trough air and easily hold scone in numb fingers.

[factotum]

But that would assume the paralysis also prevents his eyes turning to Xs to indicate he's dead, and there doesn't seem to be any conclusive evidence one way or the other about that.

[Lord_Kimboat]

Maybe the DM (Rich) is allowing the paralysis spell to act as armor and protecting him from harm as it keeps him stiff as a board (or even stiffer, since the throne was presumably made of boards)! Granted, I don't really buy it either but I've seen some pretty weird Dming decisions in my time.

[sikyon]

Nah. it clearly did physical damage (Ie shattering the tower, knocking over several other towers, lighting the city on fire)

I don't recall people having a break DC.

[Hranat]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) we can see that the palace is about twice as high as the wall... and a typical Metropolis wall is about 40 feet high... If we would assume the sapphire lies at 100 feet high then O'Chul would have sustained 10d6 falling damage (there aren't many rules about being tossed away)

I think the Gate-explosion was a bit like Saurons death, a blast which destroyes most buildings within its radius, but only knocks down (or slings away) bystanders. In that case we could say O'Chul took say... 20d6 damage, which he could have survived...

EDIT: if Miko would have been killed by the explosion, her head would be lying off... the sapphire was closer to her head when she sundered it

[Fascisticide]

I think the reason he's still alive is because it's more fun this way

[SPoD]

...still alive?

Man, this question is just going to come up every time we see O-Chul from now on, isn't it? It's really not that complicated or impossible by the D&D rules*.

He probably has a significantly higher Constitution than Miko. He might have an Amulet of Health and put all of his stat boosts into Con, whereas Miko didn't. Even being a few levels lower, he would end up with many more hit points.

Or, he made his saving throw and Miko didn't. Contrary to popular belief, yes, you still get a Reflex save when you're paralyzed, you just have an effective Dexterity of 0 (for a -5 Dex penalty). If an inanimate object gets a Reflex save, so does a paralyzed person. But O-Chul has Divine Grace and Miko doesn't. Also, as the one who triggered the explosion, Miko may have been specifically disallowed a saving throw. Or she may have just rolled a 1 on her save.

Or. most likely, both. He has a higher Con, so even though he was flung further, he rolled high on his Reflex save and squeaked by, taking only, say, 119 points of damage out of his (say) 120 hp.

* Real world physics and "What I would rule if I was DM" don't matter at all here.

[Ancalagon]

The blast did 10d100 damage.

Miko rolled lots of 50s and is dead, O'Chul ten threes and is alive. The fall did some more 10d20, again ten threes. There you have your explanation. It is as good as any other explanation.

[Wrecan]

There can be lots of explanations.

O'Chul has rings of feather falling and fire resistance, and the explosion counts as fire damage.

O'Chul also has a multiclass or prestige class of some sort that protected him.

O'Chul is dead.

O'Chul had clerics cast lots of spells on him before the battle that saved him. Miko had no protective spells on her and did not have divine grace.

[Rhyeira]

Oh, please, not *again*... how many times has this been discussed here?

Just in case you really have not found any of the old threads:
We don't know yet if O'Chul is dead or alive and lots of people have come up with lots of arguments in favor of both of these two possibilities.

The funny thing here is:
It doesn't really matter anymore whether he is dead or alive as long as Haley and Belkar just drag him along... they can find out later and cast the appropriate spells in either case.

[OOTS_Rules.]

The DM accidentially rolled all ones on O'Chul's explosion rolls while Miko rolled the maximum possible damage.

[Mr. Dragon]

A wizard did that. Which, incidentally, partially accounts for the disappearance of :vaarsuvius:

[Kurald Galain]

Because he's played by the DM's girlfriend.

[Blood]

As already mentioned, a Lich's paralyzing touch is permanent. When he died, he wouldn't have even been able to close his eyes or change the formation of his grip. So his eyes didn't close even though he's dead (or rather, in Rich's terms, they didn't change to X's), and his grip on his sword didn't change, so he could hold the scone just fine.

[nimby]

As already mentioned, a Lich's paralyzing touch is permanent. When he died, he wouldn't have even been able to close his eyes or change the formation of his grip. So his eyes didn't close even though he's dead (or rather, in Rich's terms, they didn't change to X's), and his grip on his sword didn't change, so he could hold the scone just fine.

SoD spoiler:

SoD shows Xykon killing people with his paralyzing touch, giving them x's for eyes. Ugly's alive!

[Khosan]

Nah. it clearly did physical damage (Ie shattering the tower, knocking over several other towers, lighting the city on fire)

Just as a note. The explosion didn't set the city on fire, the city was on fire when Miko escaped from jail, which was before the gate exploded, so it's pretty safe to assume the hobbos did that.

[Sigbru]

He alive because he is not O-chul, the real O-chul was send to the future, falling in Xykon when he was about to free the Snarl. this O-chul is just a doll that they make in the future (to honor the world hero) that was send into the past and fell near :mitd:
Its so simple

[Squark]

Nimby solved it once and for all.

[Strengfellow]

So O'Chuls first name is Jack eh?

[Querzis]

Miko didnt died because of the explosions, she died because she was cut in two half by the throne. O-chul simply didnt hit anything other then maybe some little rock, thats all. Beside falling damage is ridiculous in D&D, he can totally survive that and, since hes paralyzed, his body cant move no matter what so being tossed away shoudnt do much damage to him in the first place. Or he could be dead, but its still totally possible he survived no matter if we go by D&D rules or real world physics.

[Porthos]

SoD spoiler:

SoD shows Xykon killing people with his paralyzing touch, giving them x's for eyes. Ugly's alive!

Awsome point, and one that I hadn't thought about! :smallsmile:

That, as they say, settles that.

On a more general note:

Miko got bisected, O-Chul didn't.
Miko failed her save, O-Chul made his (Nat 20 FTW!!!).
O-Chul had the Power of the Plot to save him while Miko had a different function in the plot. :smalltongue:

And, yes, according to the rules of DnD, it is quite easy for O-Chul to (barely) have survived. Really. No honest. :smalltongue: DnD is just funny that way.

[Ertier]

1. O-Chull can, by the laws of plot and D&D physics, still be alive.

2. Miko had to die by the laws of plot physics.

3.DM has final say over the dice. (Give your thanks to the giant)

P.s.:smallbiggrin: I WIN !!!!!:smallbiggrin:

[MReav]

O-Chul wears a Ring of Feather Falling and used Lay on Hands as a readied action to offset the damage when the throne room blew.

[Jasdoif]

Or, he made his saving throw and Miko didn't. Contrary to popular belief, yes, you still get a Reflex save when you're paralyzed, you just have an effective Dexterity of 0 (for a -5 Dex penalty). If an inanimate object gets a Reflex save, so does a paralyzed person. But O-Chul has Divine Grace and Miko doesn't. Also, as the one who triggered the explosion, Miko may have been specifically disallowed a saving throw. Or she may have just rolled a 1 on her save.For the record, an inanimate (and nonmagical) object only gets a Reflex save if it's attended.


Anyway, even if she made the save (and Evasion-ed it to no damage), she ended up inside the city. In order for the explosion to push O-Chul all the way to the MitD and yet allow Miko to land inside the city walls, she would have to have been blown upwards, and then come down. I'm pretty confident that hits the cap on falling damage distance, so that's 20d6 falling damage for her, plus at least another 20d6 for the throne falling on her. And 40d6 is a lot of damage.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

As already mentioned, a Lich's paralyzing touch is permanent. When he died, he wouldn't have even been able to close his eyes or change the formation of his grip. So his eyes didn't close even though he's dead (or rather, in Rich's terms, they didn't change to X's), and his grip on his sword didn't change, so he could hold the scone just fine.

I'm pretty sure that a person's eyes stay open when they die, unless the mortician closes them.

[Jasdoif]

But that would assume the paralysis also prevents his eyes turning to Xs to indicate he's dead, and there doesn't seem to be any conclusive evidence one way or the other about that.I checked, and it turns out there is. A lich's paralyzing touch only affects living creatures; if O-chul died the paralysis would end.

[Gundato]

I'm pretty sure that a person's eyes stay open when they die, unless the mortician closes them.

I'm pretty sure you haven't been paying attention to the comic, or even the thread :p. If stuff dies, it gets X'd.

[Bilgore]

Well, for one thing, he was not bisected by a throne. For all we know the direct explosion did zero damage being entirely magical in nature.

For another, Miko would have been blasted into a wall, where O'chul could have been blow through the door or even the 3rd window.

[Ithekro]

I think the only things that didn't get Xs over their eyes when they died were zombies (such as when Roy showed off his great cleavage). But the zombies aren't "dead", just in pieces. They probably die a little later. The remaining undead has been seen with Xs when they get killed.

Since O'Chul's wounds are visable, but he didn't have those before Miko de-gated the throne, and he's got his regular (angry) eyes, he is probably alive, but near zero hit points.

But what can Haley and Belkar do about it? They are after Roy and may not be able to carry both bodies back to Hinjo's junk. They may see him as dead (though Haley made the comment about the Xs is Roy's eyes when he was killed) or simply leave him behind with the MitD.

If they leave him...well that means we'll have to speculate for even longer. We assume Haley and Belkar will even recognize him. Fun that on Roy's first meeting with O'Chul, he felt a certain odd spiritual kindship with him. Now they are side by side in their fates...so to speak.

[nimby]

Fun that on Roy's first meeting with O'Chul, he felt a certain odd spiritual kindship with him. Now they are side by side in their fates...so to speak.

That's it! O'chul is Roy's long lost halfbrother! Who carries diamonds and multiclassed into cleric! The MitD will try to eat the amulet and summon Celia! Celia will break the paralysis! O'chul will resurrect Roy! With Celia's diamond earrings! It all makes sense!


I just woke up to go to work, gimme a break.

[Scarab83]

Miko should have been higher HP than O'Chul given that she was 'strongest paladin in the Saphire Guard'

Strongest != Toughest


Edit: != means DOES NOT EQUAL.

[Username]

O'chul has plot armor, as long as he can suffer further humiliation, he'll live.

[Bel_Bel]

Miko got severed by a tower shard. O-chul didn't. Simple as that.

[RAGE KING!]

well maybe he's dead...or maybe he has really good constitution...I once played in a game where one guy wasnt as high level (L.A.) but he had really good con...so even though my Hd was higher (i was a barbarian he was a fighter)...and even with rage...his hp was still much higher than mine...you can have really high hp without too many levels if your con is really good.

[David Demola]

...still alive?

Miko should have been higher HP than O'Chul given that she was 'strongest paladin in the Saphire Guard' --she didnt lose that when she went grey.

O'Chul was point blank just as Miko was when the gate detonated.
O'Chul was paralyzed so could not avoid or apply evasion damage.
O'Chul plummeted from the top of the tower and was THROWN all the way outside the city. He presumably took at least as much damage as Roy did from falling--and I guarntee that the Meteor Swarm/Finger of Death that Roy Soaked was less overall damage than being blasted point blank from the gate exploding.

SO: Why is O'Chul still alive? (other than a character shield)

Because his state of paralysis made his skin more firm that Miko's, thus negating him being split in twain. Also, maybe his constitution was higher than Miko's, so even though she is stronger, he has more HP.

[MReav]

Here's a thought: Maybe Miko wasn't healed (or at least to full) after her fight against Hinjo and Roy. So, while she wasn't depicted as having damage (having had the superficial damage healed or had it removed in an art upgrade), she wasn't at Max HP, and therefore at a lower HP than O-Chul.

I have no basis for believing this, just throwing something out there.

[David Argall]

We have some persistent folk around here. O'Chul is alive. Deal with it.

Lich paralysis looks like death unless you make your heal check. The eyes are not held open. Properly, they should be drawn as XX. Therefore O'Chul looks dead to Haley & Belkar unless they make the save. That is the default. When Haley asks how O'Chul survived, she is saying he does not look dead, which in turn means he is not dead. End of discussion.

As to how he survived? The actual question is making a reason for Miko to die. Falling damage rules have long been derided in D&D and when we follow those rules, O'Chul has no particular problems surviving.

[Porthos]

As to how he survived? The actual question is making a reason for Miko to die. Falling damage rules have long been derided in D&D and when we follow those rules, O'Chul has no particular problems surviving.

Indeed. High level fighters can eat 20d6 damage for breakfast without breaking a sweat. :smalltongue:

The real determiner for O-Chul's survivability was the actual explosion. On that we know next to nothing (what type of damage was it, did it allow a save, how much damage did it do, et ect), so it is almost pointless to debate it. But if we presume the castle had an 1 foot thick masonry wall, then it had 90 hit points, with hardness of 8 (making an affective 98 hp for an one shot affect) and a break DC of 35.

So lets say the blast did exactly 100 points of damage (it's a nice round number :smallsmile: ). Just for grins and giggles, let's have O-Chul fail the save. On the other hand, I'm going to propose that O-Chul got lucky on the 20d6 falling damage and rolled low (avg of 2.25 instead of 3.5). So that's a total of 145 points of damage taken.

I'm going to provide two examples for total HP O-Chul might have. One at 14th level and one at 13th. If he is 14th level, and if he rolled high for his HD (say an average of 7 instead of 5.5), then he would have 101 base HP at 14th level (remember PCs have max HP at first level :smallwink: ).

Furthermore, if O-Chul has a +3 CON (not unreasonable since he looks like he sees a lot of combat), then the HP total is raised to 143 HP:

10+13*7+14*3=143 HP (at 14th level)

Alternatively, if he is 13th level and has a +4 CON (suspect, but not unheard of at high level), then he can indeed be 13th level and survive:

10+12*7+13*4=146 HP (at 13th level)

In the first case, the blast and the fall puts him at -2 HP. He makes a stabilization roll and survives. Barely. In the second case, he is standing at exactly 1HP.

Which makes a kind of poetic sense, if you ask me. :smallamused:

So there you are. That is how O-Chul can survive. No tricks. No fancy magic items. He can even fail the save of the explosion. Just plain-standard Rules As Written.

And, if you have him making the save, then the explosion can go all the way up to 200 HP of damage (save for half). :smalleek: Or, alternatively, you can have still have the blast do 100 pts of damage (with 50 damage if you make the save) and lower O-Chul's HP/level count or increase the falling damage he took to something more reasonable (in fact, if he "only" takes 50 points from the blast, he can go all the way down to 10th level and still survive). Still, the whole point of all of the math above is just to prove that the damage he took is around the same amount as the HP he might have. I'm not trying to claim with any real authority his actual HP count. :smallsmile:

Now this does presume everything that can go right, does go right. But that goes without saying. :smalltongue:

So:
Take 20d6 damage (negated if he had a ring of feather falling).
Make a (probably) Reflex Save to avoid the debris field. Make the save, you take no damage. Fail the save and Bad Things Happen (i.e. Miko)
Make a save against an unknown amount of damage from the actual blast, or have enough class levels and a high enough CON mod to survive the blast outright.

Unlikely to happen? Sure. Can it happen? Abso-friggin-lutely. DnD is just funny that way. :smalltongue:

[Behold_the_Void]

Indeed. High level fighters can eat 20d6 damage for breakfast without breaking a sweat. :smalltongue:

The real determiner for O-Chul's survivability was the actual explosion. On that we know next to nothing (what type of damage was it, did it allow a save, how much damage did it do, et ect), so it is almost pointless to debate it. But if we presume the castle had an 1 foot thick masonry wall, then it had 90 hit points, with hardness of 8 (making an affective 98 hp for an one shot affect) and a break DC of 35.

So lets say the blast did exactly 100 points of damage (it's a nice round number :smallsmile: ). Just for grins and giggles, let's have O-Chul fail the save. On the other hand, I'm going to propose that O-Chul got lucky on the 20d6 falling damage and rolled low (avg of 2.25 instead of 3.5). So that's a total of 145 points of damage taken. If he is around 12-14th level, and if he rolled high for his HD (say an average of 7 instead of 5.5), then he would have 101 base HP at 14th level (remember PCs have max HP at first level :smallwink: ).

If O-Chul has a +3 CON (not unreasonable since he looks like he sees a lot of combat), then the HP total is raised to 143 HP:

10+13*7+14*3=143 HP (at 14th level)

Alternatively, if he had a +4 CON (suspect, but not unheard of at high level), then he can be 13th level and survive:

10+12*7+13*4=146 HP (at 13th level)

In the first case, the blast and the fall puts him at -2 HP. He makes a stabilization roll and survives. Barely. In the second case, he is standing at exactly 1HP.

Which makes a kind of poetic sense, if you ask me. :smallamused:

So there you are. That is how O-Chul can survive. No tricks. No fancy magic items. He can even fail the save of the explosion. Just plain-standard Rules As Written.

And, if you have him making the save, then the explosion can go all the way up to 200 HP of damage (save for half). :smalleek: Or, alternatively, you can have still have the blast do 100 pts of damage (with 50 damage if you make the save) and lower O-Chul's HP/level count or increase the falling damage he took to something more reasonable.

Now this does presume everything that can go right, does go right. But that goes without saying. :smalltongue:

So:
Take 20d6 damage (negated if he had a ring of feather falling).
Make a (probably) Reflex Save to avoid the debris field. Make the save, you take no damage. Fail the save and Bad Things Happen (i.e. Miko)
Make a save against an unknown amount of damage from the actual blast, or have enough class levels and a high enough CON mod to survive the blast outright.

Unlikely to happen? Sure. Can it happen? Abso-friggin-lutely. DnD is just funny that way. :smalltongue:

You can even discount the natural constitution of 18 with an Amulet of Health, which isn't unlikely for him to have.

[Oberon]

I agree with your statement that it's possible, but I just wantedto point out: you can't make any reflex saves when you're paralyzed.

[Behold_the_Void]

I agree with your statement that it's possible, but I just wantedto point out: you can't make any reflex saves when you're paralyzed.

Yes you can, you just do it with a -5 penalty (treat as if having a dex of 0). Paladins have Divine Grace and he's reasonably well-leveled, so he'd probably at least have a positive modifier on his save.

[Porthos]

I agree with your statement that it's possible, but I just wantedto point out: you can't make any reflex saves when you're paralyzed.


Yes you can, you just do it with a -5 penalty (treat as if having a dex of 0). Paladins have Divine Grace and he's reasonably well-leveled, so he'd probably at least have a positive modifier on his save.

Behold_the_Void is exactly right. :smallsmile:


Paralyzed
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Nutty, but true. :smallsmile: Oh they'll rationalize it by saying that Saving Throws also represent luck, morale, karma, and whatnot. It's still nutty. :smallamused:

[Oberon]

I did not know that. Weird.

Still doesn't make sense.

[Porthos]

I did not know that. Weird.

Still doesn't make sense.

Well, if you want to hear WotC's take on the matter, here it is. :smallsmile:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a



"A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is
subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save
usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not
depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It
also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the
save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous
factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from
meeting an untimely fate."


Now if it makes you feel any better, plenty of DMs have Rule Zeroed that particular idea, as many of them feel it is one of the more nutty ideas in a very nutty game. :smalltongue:

[Caractacus]

Because his state of paralysis made his skin more firm that Miko's, thus negating him being split in twain.

When was he 'split in twain'?

Or do you mean 'preventing him being split in twain'?

[thegreatmightynerd]

Miko was damaged a few days earlier by Roy, the clerics patched her up but they didn't heal her fully because she would just escape so she had less life to begin with. also, shut up, it's the plot

[thegreatmightynerd]

nevermind, someone already said that, I guess it is to obvious for me to be the only one

[Scarab83]

Because his state of paralysis made his skin more firm that Miko's, thus negating him being split in twain.


When was he 'split in twain'?

Or do you mean 'preventing him being split in twain'?

"Negating (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/negating)". Kind of an important word to miss.

[MReav]

Miko was damaged a few days earlier by Roy, the clerics patched her up but they didn't heal her fully because she would just escape so she had less life to begin with. also, shut up, it's the plot

Actually, it was just the previous day.

[Respectobiggle]

Well, if you want to hear WotC's take on the matter, here it is. :smallsmile:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a



Now if it makes you feel any better, plenty of DMs have Rule Zeroed that particular idea, as many of them feel it is one of the more nutty ideas in a very nutty game. :smalltongue:

The nutty thing that people tend to think about less often is the whole concept of the evasion ability. When you're in a 10'x10' empty room that someone throws a fireball into and you take no damage without even leaving your square, there has to be some kind of major random factor in the strength of that ball of flame.

[Lolzords]

Who said he is still alive? Most probably paralysis spell is still working, so the difference is not that visible.

That's the feeling I had, he's dead, but the paralysis keeps his eyes frozen open.

[Roupe]

well I can think of several scenarios

1. The paralysis has an extra effect that gives invincibility, for example I recall a earlier edition of flesh to stone victims to be invincible /unbreakable.
2. O´Chul has enough Fortitude save & hitpoints to still be "alive"
3. O'chul is dead, but paralysis keeps his corpse intact.

[maitreyi]

O'Chul is alive so that he can tell the Hinjo and the OOTS what Miko did, and whatever he may have learned about the enemy from the MitD.
:mitd:
Perhaps he also knows something about the MitD from being forced to spend time with him.

This makes for interesting drama, how else could the OOTS find out about the last moments of the throne room? :miko:

[David Argall]

O'Chul is alive so that he can tell the Hinjo and the OOTS what Miko did, how else could the OOTS find out about the last moments of the throne room? :miko:

How do they really care?

Now if they were going to raise Miko and didn't know if they wanted to give her a medal or not...

[dragoncmd]

I don't recall people having a break DC.

WOW. I've heard of strange comments but that takes the cake. Also explosions wouldn't be a str check, they would be dealing damage to break through hardness (which people lack). Still good point.

[BRC]

O'Chul lives because of the powerful SHEILD OF PLOT NECCESITY
:elan: Dun Dun DuN

[dehro]

I feel there is some logical flaw in the equation
miko saying her to be the strongest in a fight= miko being of higher level/having more xp or hp/having more chance/rights to survival to anything different than a foe with a sword.

what if o chul is of higher level but has devoted several of them to features different than those which have made miko the extremely competent fighter she was? what if he's like 10 levels higher but has devoted the level bonuses to, say...strategy, herbalism, ancient lore or animal husbandry, instead of boosting the fighting skills like miko has done?? (just examples)

after all we have only miko's words stating that she was a better fighter..for all we know she has never fought o-chul, him being a teacher/administrator/retired field agent from way before miko came about.... or hinjo might have had reasons to hold back... (for instance concealing his true ability to would be plotters and assassins?)

and, again, being a better fighter does not equate to having more chances to survive an explosion like it does not equate to being of higher level

[IronicFortunes]

Also Miko might not have been at full HP. She did get into a massive brawl on with Roy and others when she fell. The clerics that took her away healed her, but why did they need to heal her to max? I mean if she was at 15hp and they healed her to 50 hp (more than some wizards ever get) of her 150hp that's plenty to keep her alive and well in a cell. She can't heal herself because she's fallen and even if she got a day or three or natural rest that doesn't bring her up to full. O'Chul on the other hand was easily at or near full hp.

[dehro]

Also Miko might not have been at full HP. She did get into a massive brawl on with Roy and others when she fell. The clerics that took her away healed her, but why did they need to heal her to max? I mean if she was at 15hp and they healed her to 50 hp (more than some wizards ever get) of her 150hp that's plenty to keep her alive and well in a cell. She can't heal herself because she's fallen and even if she got a day or three or natural rest that doesn't bring her up to full. O'Chul on the other hand was easily at or near full hp.


yah..plus the throne bisecting her which ammounts to a natural 20, if I ever saw one.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Miko failed a massive damage save?

[Aquillion]

It could just be that the sapphire automatically kills whoever shatters it if they don't make some 50/50 roll or some such thing, like the way the Retributive Strike of a Staff of the Magi works.

[Jayabalard]

Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Spot check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still aliveAppearing dead in the OoTS world means X's for eyes. He doesn't appear dead us, so obviously we made our spot check.

He also doesn't appear dead to Haley, so she must have made her spot check too.

[North]

Technically Ochul doesnt need to live to tell the OOTS what happened.

Theres Roys dad.
Talk to dead spells.
And of course prophetic dream to the leader of the Saphire Guardtrio

[David Argall]

we have only miko's words stating that she was a better fighter..
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html

We have O-Chul's own opinion that Miko was best.


or hinjo might have had reasons to hold back... (for instance concealing his true ability to would be plotters and assassins?)

When somebody is about to kill you is not a good time to be holding back, particularly not to fool possible assassins who would have had years to see you in action and would fully know your ability.

[dehro]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html

We have O-Chul's own opinion that Miko was best.



there you go again...finest warrior doesn't mean highest level/toughest endurance/HP stats...

ok, she's a better fighter than o-chul...that's al

as for the other objections, ok, I have made some wild guesswork...but also mantaining that miko is the the one that has better chances to survive a major blast for statistic reasons, is quite a wild leap of logic

[MReav]

I think the best explanation was the Retributive Strike one, combined with O-Chul using a ring of Feather Falling.

[Mc. Lovin']

...still alive?

Miko should have been higher HP than O'Chul given that she was 'strongest paladin in the Saphire Guard' --she didnt lose that when she went grey.

O'Chul was point blank just as Miko was when the gate detonated.
O'Chul was paralyzed so could not avoid or apply evasion damage.
O'Chul plummeted from the top of the tower and was THROWN all the way outside the city. He presumably took at least as much damage as Roy did from falling--and I guarntee that the Meteor Swarm/Finger of Death that Roy Soaked was less overall damage than being blasted point blank from the gate exploding.

SO: Why is O'Chul still alive? (other than a character shield)

Well we don't know, they all assume he is. He is paralyzed, so 'X's' on the eyes can't happen, right?

[War]

Eh, that line of thinking doesn't work for me. Xed eyes aren't the same as closed eyes, which we've seen many times. Eyes turning into Xs has to be an involuntary motion, since corpses do it, and paralysis doesn't hinder such automatic processes. If the paralyzed individual can breathe and beat their heart, eyes Xing oughtn't be any different.

...That or it's just a stylistic cue to indicate death (yes, one which other characters can see, just file it in the enormous fourth-wall-breakage pile). What the heck would the X eyes even represent, realistically? People's eyes don't actually turn into Xs when they die, or at any other time short of major surgery.

[Demented]

People's eyes don't actually turn into Xs when they die, or at any other time short of major surgery.

...Because we all really needed that mental image as we go through the day.

[Porthos]

Well we don't know, they all assume he is. He is paralyzed, so 'X's' on the eyes can't happen, right?

Start of Darkness....

pretty much shows that paralyzed characters who are dead have X's on the eyes. :smallsmile:

Therefore, O-Chul is still (barely) alive

[David Argall]

there you go again...finest warrior doesn't mean highest level/toughest endurance/HP stats...

ok, she's a better fighter than o-chul...that's al

as for the other objections, ok, I have made some wild guesswork...but also mantaining that miko is the the one that has better chances to survive a major blast for statistic reasons, is quite a wild leap of logic

As the saying goes "The battle is not always to the strong, nor the race to the swift, but that's the way to bet." It would seem that Miko had about +30 hp and +8 to her save. [While the prison guards might not have healed her completely, she is drawn at full health].
O-Chul's survival was reasonable by the rules [tho we might question how reasonable those rules are]. Miko's death is simply plot-caused, and we invent what excuse we find convenient.


O-Chul using a ring of Feather Falling.
O-Chul lands pretty hard. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html
We can fiddle around enough to make this not impossible, but the more reasonable assumption is no ring. Better to assume he is buffed with things like Bear's Endurance so he can take a couple hundred points of damage.

[Aquillion]

Technically Ochul doesnt need to live to tell the OOTS what happened.Haley says he's alive, though. Since normally a paralyzed person appears dead, and Haley would have no reason to know that he was just paralyzed, the only reason she'd think he's alive is if she made the spot or heal check to notice his vital signs.

As for falling damage? Eh. It's not so bad if he rolls low, had high HP, and didn't take too much damage from the explosion. None of those are particularly unlikely... from the way he's drawn right now, he doesn't have much left, but he does seem to be alive.

[Jayabalard]

Well we don't know, they all assume he is. He is paralyzed, so 'X's' on the eyes can't happen, right?Nope; it just means we made out spot check ( we probably get a hefty metagaming bonus to our spot checks)

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Miko was probably at-9 or so after the fight. O'Chul probably just rolled better for damage or has a hefty con bonus. The blast probably left him at single digits or so.

[Xianio]

Well it's quite obvious to me. He obviously rolled a perfect: DM plot device roll. ie: Natural 20's on all damage saves woo!

I mean c'mon people, easily explained :smallbiggrin:

[Hushdawg]

...still alive?

Miko should have been higher HP than O'Chul given that she was 'strongest paladin in the Saphire Guard' --she didnt lose that when she went grey.



Considering that "Paladin Strength" comes from Wistom and Charisma it is plausible that she had a lower Constitution than O'Chul.

If O'Chul had pumped states in CON and DEX and less in WIS and CHA than others then he easily could survive the blast.

As others have mentioned, he also wasn't chopped in half by the throne.

Also, compare the damage marks on O'Chul before and after, he took damage, he took a LOT of damage; just not enough to knock him into negatives.

[Scarab83]

I have a simple question.

Why does it matter?

Miko is dead, O'Chul is alive. End of story. Discussing it to death won't change anything, so... why bother?

[Hushdawg]

Haley says he's alive, though. Since normally a paralyzed person appears dead, and Haley would have no reason to know that he was just paralyzed, the only reason she'd think he's alive is if she made the spot or heal check to notice his vital signs.



The flesh is still warm to touch, lividity and rigor mortis don't set in and the individual still has shallow breathing.

HUGE difference between paralysis and death.


Besides... she'd noticed that his eyes weren't Xs

[Aquillion]

I have a simple question.

Why does it matter?

Miko is dead, O'Chul is alive. End of story. Discussing it to death won't change anything, so... why bother?Because it's fun to argue over minutae while waiting for the next comic. :smalltongue:


The flesh is still warm to touch, lividity and rigor mortis don't set in and the individual still has shallow breathing.

HUGE difference between paralysis and death.Not for a lich's paralyzing touch, at least not per the RAW:

Paralyzing Touch (Su)
Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).

The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Spot check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive."Seems dead", combined with the rather high DC 20/15 difficulty to recognize that they're alive, implies that all of the obvious signs of someone hit by the lich ability are identical to death. "Check for a pulse" or "are they still warm" are not a DC 15 heal checks by any stretch of the imagination.

[Hushdawg]

I have a simple question.

Why does it matter?

Miko is dead, O'Chul is alive. End of story. Discussing it to death won't change anything, so... why bother?

The crux of the matter is the question "Why did the explosion kill one person at point blank range and not the other person that is a supposed equal at point blank range.

Same reason people debate the JFK assasination.

He's dead, the hows and whys are still a curiosity but discussing them won't change the fact that he's dead.

[berrew]

Technically Ochul doesnt need to live to tell the OOTS what happened.

Theres Roys dad.
Talk to dead spells.
And of course prophetic dream to the leader of the Saphire GuardtrioNot really. O'Chul (and Soon, for that matter) has a plot point to reveal that the OoTS has absolutely NO reason to ask him about. And I can't remember any evidence to show that Eugene Greenhilt knows about the phylactory. Have I forgotten something said in one of the strips?

[Iclyious]

What I want to know is why so many saying O'chul should be dead are not taking into account the difference in their builds? Miko as a monk and a duel wielder has to spread her stats thinner, needing to meet the requirements for two weapon fighting etc. while also maintaining decent damage and AB for her weapons. That means she'd have to dedicate a significant portion of her stats to dex, while O'chul looks like he just put that into Con and str.

She's still a much better combatant, she has what 7 attacks to his 3? Even if he was as high as lvl 14 or so I'd bet on the person with twice his attacks anytime. That doesn't mean O'chul has lower hp, in fact I'd pretty much assume a hardened looking guy like him would be physically tougher than Miko but toughness isn't everything in a fight.

[Drider]

miko probably had 12-14 con, mainly pumping str and dex.
o-chul looks tougher(scar) and may have 16 con, and is old and could have a amulet of con +4, or +6 +buffs
miko had a few levels of monk, only d8, and maybe only rolled 1 for her hp each level, while o-chul has full 10 hp per level.

[monsterinshadow]

isn't it obvious? MAGIC! and by magic i mean that rich says so. anywho, this is the part where most people will put backup evidence for their origional arguement but i dont wanna and since i used the magic answer it means that noone is probably going to read this but im getttting near the end and now i have to put something halfway normal and so the faries carried o-chul down from the sky or the MITD caught him for no damage.

[Talyn]

Miko failed a massive damage save?

Man, that was what I thought FIRST thing and I was hoping that nobody had said it yet. Oh well, rather than being the first I'll just make a QFT.

[RAGE KING!]

Nah. it clearly did physical damage (Ie shattering the tower, knocking over several other towers, lighting the city on fire)

Maybe it just made a shockwave, sorta like a grenade, just without shrapnel. So the buildings got owned 'cuz of the force, but O'Chul got shot out after the castle broke, so he was just catapulted.

[nagora]

Because he's played by the DM's girlfriend.

I vote that as the best answer. Well done.

[Nightgaunt]

I was thinking about this a while ago, and I came up with a few ideas. I check the forums fairly regularly, but it's easy to miss posts.

So pardon if this has all been said before. This is a game mechanics type post.

O'Chul was still a paladin, which means he had a few advantages to Miko. He had better saving throws, because his Divine Grace ability was still active. That still doesn't explain why he could have survived both the explosion and the fall.

My thought was that there is no reason O'Chul could not have used his lay on hands ability. From the view on 463 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) he looks as though he is touching himself. Even paralyzed he can take purely mental actions, and there is no action required for laying on hands except for being in contact with the recipient. We've seen Miko touch herself to lay on hands, so it is a reasonable assumption to make that he would have to be touching himself, fortunately with his lack of weapon he is...

So if he made his saves, thanks to Divine Grace, and he lay hands on himself mid-air (he certainly traveled more then 60 feet) he may have made it...

Or maybe it was plot related.

[RAGE KING!]

responses to a bunch of quotes:


Yes you can, you just do it with a -5 penalty (treat as if having a dex of 0). Paladins have Divine Grace and he's reasonably well-leveled, so he'd probably at least have a positive modifier on his save.


THats one of the problems with DnD. You can make reflex save when you cant move...deafness gives -70 to listen...if youre deaf, you cant hear!


The nutty thing that people tend to think about less often is the whole concept of the evasion ability. When you're in a 10'x10' empty room that someone throws a fireball into and you take no damage without even leaving your square, there has to be some kind of major random factor in the strength of that ball of flame.

-how can you be in an empty room?


And of course prophetic dream to the leader of the Saphire Guardtrio

ahh but if O'Chul is dead then it would be a duo, not trio.

I thought we decided o'chul was alive?

[EntilZha]

God helps those who can roll natural 20's in a pinch. :smallwink:

[MReav]

God helps those who can roll natural 20's in a pinch. :smallwink:

Oh God, I have a friend that can do that with surprising regularity.

[Porthos]

God helps those who can roll natural 20's in a pinch. :smallwink:


Oh God, I have a friend that can do that with surprising regularity.

Waaaay back in the day (back in 1e days) when I was first getting involved in gaming, I was in a No Win situation. My character, a Ranger I believe, was going to flat out die. However, the DM took pity on me and said, "tell you what, make a To Hit Roll with your bow. If you make a Natural 20, you'll kill the guy chraging you. Otherwise you have to roll a new character, coz the guy is going to easily kill you." (IIRC my character was only 1st or 2nd level)

Well, since I was still just learing the game, I went along with him and threw the dice on the table. It rolled around the table for a short bit before landing and it, of course, showed that sweet, sweet "20". The entire table erupted in cheers (including the slightly chagrined DM).

The funny thing is, even though I can't remember anything that lead up to that moment, or after it, I can still to this day remember the die stopping where it did. Just goes to show that the Gaming Gods do indeed look over people from time to time. :smallwink:

[Jetrauben]

You know, it was specifically stated the entirety of the Castle, if not Azure City, was built around that throne and the gem on it. I'm presuming, much like in LOTR, that 'built on' is said in a more than simply architectural sense. Much as destroying the Ring destroyed the foundations of Barad-Dur, destroying the gem tore the tower at the very least to shreds mystically simply by nature of its destruction. It's possible the actual explosive damage, as others have said, was minimal.

Miko was just unfortunate enough to be sliced in two by the flying debris. Not gonna survive that. O-Chul missed the debris.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well, now we know WHY O-Chul is still alive:

So he can be transformed into a "half silver dragon dire fiendish undead Blackguard boy-toy" for Tsukiko!

Actually, can someone write up a seriously over the top "half/dire/fiendish" description, based on the body parts that are currently available? It just has to end with "Blackguard boy-toy for Tsukiko."

Assume any grafting wanted is available. Have fun with it.

One cookie ----> (::) <---- (Look! It's Chocolate Chip!) will be awarded to the most creative!

[Leon]

I don't recall people having a break DC.

Anything is possible to a DM

[explanetpluto]

If he was dead, his eyes would have x's.

He's alive because it's important to the plot.

[Drider]

maybe the throne was a vorpal keen greatclub,(huge or gargantuan sized) with a depression in it for people to sit in.

[David Argall]

Not only is O-Chul still alive, he is going to stay alive thru considerably more abuse. A joke like this almost always loses its fun if the victim of all this suffering does not survive. So O-Chul is due to suffer quite a few indignities over the next week or two, but he will come out of this alive. OK, maybe not, but alive.

[Nomadic]

Well, now we know WHY O-Chul is still alive:

So he can be transformed into a "half silver dragon dire fiendish undead Blackguard boy-toy" for Tsukiko!

Actually, can someone write up a seriously over the top "half/dire/fiendish" description, based on the body parts that are currently available? It just has to end with "Blackguard boy-toy for Tsukiko."

Assume any grafting wanted is available. Have fun with it.

One cookie ----> (::) <---- (Look! It's Chocolate Chip!) will be awarded to the most creative!

Well it wasn't for tsukiko (as it was part of the belkar's romantic interest thread...hehehe) but you can replace the belkster with her if you want.


http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c140/doomyperson/skullko.jpg

[Ave]

O'chul is alive to ...

make a friendly contact with an evil outsider

[Egnuol]

O'chul is alive to ...

make a friendly contact with an evil outsider



I believe this to be true. And that if the MitD is an outsider, it may already be accomplished.

[Callista]

Well, if Miko is the highest level paladin, and O'Chul is the secon highest level, and she died and he lived, then we can assume that, the way the gate was built, there is some specific high amount of damage taken by the person who actually destroys the gate--as well as the collateral damage taken by everything around. Kind of like splash damage on a grand scale.

If you think about it, it makes sense: Build the gate so that it kills anyone who destroys it (or at least does a great deal of damage). If an evil person destroys it, he dies. If a good person destroys it, he'll be giving his life to do so, and thus probably have a really good reason.

I submit that both Miko and O'Chul knew this when they went to destroy the gate--and that this is why Hinjo immediately assumed, upon seeing the explosion, that O'Chul was dead. Paladins are tough--they CAN survive explosions and falls, as O'Chul did thanks to those nice saving throws his class gets--but he would not have, if he had been the one to destroy the Gate.

[Arnen]

It might also have had something to do with O'chul still being a paladin, while Miko no longer posessed any of her paladin abilities.

[Vhaidara]

And how do we know he isn't dead? His body would still be paralyzed, and therefore his eyes couldn't X.

[teratorn]

And how do we know he isn't dead? His body would still be paralyzed, and therefore his eyes couldn't X.

Haley says so, so we can assume she made her check, he is alive.

[Vhaidara]

And how do we know she isn't guessing? It's a well known fact that All OOTS members have horrible Spot checks, and it's a DC 20 to see that they are paralyzed instead of dead, but if he died while paralyzed, that might be making it look like he's alive.

[teratorn]

And how do we know she isn't guessing?

It's possible but
:haley: «We have to go back!»
:haley: «But O-Chul is still alive!»
Strongly suggest she isn't simply guessing. She's really worried. I'd say O-Chul alive is the most likely scenario.

[Scarab83]

Plus, I believe it was established in Start of Darkness that death during paralysis still causes X'd eyes.

[Vampire_Boy]

Ah, the many fun things one can do with a paralyzed paladin. Looking forward to see what MITD will come up with next, but I have no doubt it will be some amusing kind of torture. :D

[RAGE KING!]

O'chuls scar provides damage reduction 50000000/rifts in the fabric of the universe.

[Scarab83]

Straight from Hinjo's mouth: "I chose O-Chul to defend the throne room because he was the toughest of us all..."

Just because Miko was the best fighter, doesn't mean she was the toughest.

[David Argall]

And how do we know he isn't dead? His body would still be paralyzed, and therefore his eyes couldn't X.

You are hoping against hope. We have no evidence the eyes can be held open after death. We have considerable that the eyes X automatically. We have witnesses that deem him alive. And a dead body being tossed around is just not that funny compared to a live paladin.

Why should O-Chul be dead? What story purpose would his dead body serve?

[Jaice]

well the last strip stated while O'chul is still alive. hinjo stated that differnt pally where at diffeernet place for differnt reason. he said O'chul was the toughest. Miko may be the strongest and most skilled but O'chul by far has the higher con modifier. so yeah Miko may have been a better fighter and being able to avoid hits O'chul could soak up the hits

[Dunamin]

It's also quite understandable that Miko has a Con score below O-chul's, considering how most of her other abilities already seem to be more or less impressive (at least high Dex, and higher than average Str, Wis, Cha).

Then again, she could have just rolled really well, just like it seems Roy has.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Don't forget Miko's smaller monk hd.

Also I stand by the nat 1 for massive damage.

[SandroTheMaster]

People also forget to remember that Miko surely as hell DIDN'T get a heal after her ass being handed to her by Roy. And that she was left to 0 in that battle. Best case scenario, she recovered only about 15 (or more) hits from resting in the jail. That assuming the jail was a comfortable place for her (might as well be better than the stick up you know where). So, when she dies from the explosion (or throne), it might have done much less damage than people assume. Enough to kill hobos, sure, but a hobo's average HP is 5, and 30 if it is an elite.

[dehro]

Straight from Hinjo's mouth: "I chose O-Chul to defend the throne room because he was the toughest of us all..."

Just because Miko was the best fighter, doesn't mean she was the toughest.

somehow I can't shake the feeling that the Giant reads the forum and delivers the answers to clarify where we have some ground for speculation and mock those who haven't.

this sequence of events (mad hipothesis followed by clarifying panel) is not a first.

[mockingbyrd7]

somehow I can't shake the feeling that the Giant reads the forum and delivers the answers to clarify where we have some ground for speculation and mock those who haven't.

this sequence of events (mad hipothesis followed by clarifying panel) is not a first.

I agree that Giant likes to play with us. For example, the arrow at the beginning of strip 436 - myself and two other people started threads debating where the assassin's arrow would go, and all three became 2 or 3 pages each. V and Roy and Miko were the three main targets discussed. Hmm, I wonder? :smallamused:

[Scarab83]

somehow I can't shake the feeling that the Giant reads the forum and delivers the answers to clarify where we have some ground for speculation and mock those who haven't.

this sequence of events (mad hipothesis followed by clarifying panel) is not a first.

I agree, but it's best not to talk about it. Some rabid fanboys get a bit uppity when their glorious webcartoonist's creativity gets "questioned", at least in their opinion. Me? I think it's hilarious when he pokes fun at the forum readers.

[dehro]

I agree, but it's best not to talk about it. Some rabid fanboys get a bit uppity when their glorious webcartoonist's creativity gets "questioned", at least in their opinion. Me? I think it's hilarious when he pokes fun at the forum readers.

you won't hear me protesting...I think it's funny as hell and don't think that it's done out of lack of creativity :smallwink:

on a sidenote, in the last panel, when Durkon sliced the tentacle off with his hammer:smallconfused: , I thought precisely what he said the very next second :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: