Reworking the Fighter

[DracoKnight]

How powerful is Indomitable? I've never been able to really utilize it when playing a fighter - it was just kind of there. I'm reworking the fighter, trying to improve its (few) faults, and I have a couple of questions:

1) Is Indomitable fine as is?

2) If not, would removing the rest recharge fix it?

3) Would giving it another feature (like Evasion) be better for the Fighter overall?

Thanks for your help in advance!

EDIT: Here's a link to the rework thus far: DracoKnight's 5e Fighter Rework (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHbFZCZ0pySGZkdzg/view?usp=sharing)



Second Wind is a great feature, but it loses its usefulness at higher levels, due to 1/rest usability
You now get Extra Attack at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. This creates design consistency, mirroring when the other classes in the game get their power boosts.
I can't think of a time where this feature was ever useful to me in my 2 years of playing fighters, particularly as a long rest ability. I have changed it to be like the Paladin's Aura of Protection, except keyed off of CON, and only applying to yourself.
I removed the school restrictions on Eldritch Knight Spellcasting, after seeing how many groups handwave it away anyways.
Now bound weapons count as magical for overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical damage.
Bulwark needed to be changed to reflect the changes to Indomitable.


Martial Expertise replaces Indomitable's improvement at 13th level, and reflects the Fighter's martial prowess.
I created Ace of Blades after moving the Fighter's 4th attack to 17th level. This should be a better capstone for the fighter, and make it worth going 20 levels in this class.

[Specter]

It fixes one of the Fighter's greatest weaknesses from older games, magic. You don't wanna fail a Disintegrate or Dominate Person.

What sucks is its diminishing returns, so you may wanna think about giving them something at level 13.

[DeAnno]

The main problem is if you fail a save you're bad at, you aren't particularly likely to succeed when you try again, so it can be psychologically frustrating. It's stronger when used as an escape button for saves you're good at that you happen to botch, but that doesn't happen as often.

A short rest recharge instead of long rest might not be a bad idea, especially since as is it's the fighter's only long rest feature (outside of archetypes.)

[Echelonaz]

All Indomitable needed to let you do is reroll with proficiency. It solves 90% of the problems with the ability. At level 14, I would allow Second Wind to clear some status effects, probably Poison and Fear. You wouldn't be immune to fear like a Paladin, but it would let you overcome it once per short rest. I would move the fourth attack to level 16, that way Fighters actually get to enjoy their fourth attack before the game ends. Capstone, should be an ability that lets you recharge all your abilities as though you took a short rest. Honestly that is probably broken, but you get the idea.

[DracoKnight]

All Indomitable needed to let you do is reroll with proficiency. It solves 90% of the problems with the ability. At level 14, I would allow Second Wind to clear some status effects, probably Poison and Fear. You wouldn't be immune to fear like a Paladin, but it would let you overcome it once per short rest. I would move the fourth attack to level 16, that way Fighters actually get to enjoy their fourth attack before the game ends. Capstone, should be an ability that lets you recharge all your abilities as though you took a short rest. Honestly that is probably broken, but you get the idea.

I actually moved the 4th attack to 17th, to put it on par with when cantrips add their final die (since apparently cantrips are supposed to scale with extra attacks). And the capstone, I was thinking could be the ability to expend both of your action surges in one turn.

[MeeposFire]

I gave indomitable as giving prof in a save of your choice in addition to its normal abilities. This brings back what fighters had in the oldest editions of being some of the best in saves (eventually). The monk is still slightly better in that it naturally gets all the saves at once and it ends up with two extra prof saves (the fighter can only get up to 5 and monks are the only one who is prof with death saves).

[djreynolds]

My issue with the fighter is basically everything is based on rolling... a paladin has immunities, a barbarian and rogue can take half damage... a fighter just gets to roll. He doesn't auto crit or auto double damage, he has to roll, and I recently I have been taking savage attacker, it is good when you roll less then your ability modifier on a crit. :sigh:

The deep stalker ranger gets wisdom save proficiency at 7th. Sounds good...but......we recently rolled a 1 time game with 20th level PCs, I took resilient wisdom, and with a 14 in wisdom had a +8.... I still failed my wisdom saves most of the time, stuff like DC23.

I like indomitable, but more than likely, even with proficiency in a save like wisdom... you may still fail... we fought Graz'zt and his DC23 I needed a 15 at least.

Now if indomitable was automatic success, that's cool.

Evasion is nice, but it would nullify taking shield master for that aspect.

[Zalabim]

If I was playtesting changes to indomitable, I would make it legendary resistance. Just say no.

[DracoKnight]

If I was playtesting changes to indomitable, I would make it legendary resistance. Just say no.

Hmmmmm...that would justify rest recharge.

[Kane0]

Move 4th attack to level 17, add new capstone
Indomitable on short rest and add prof to reroll
Add in a ribbon between level 11 and 17
Upgrade second wind at mid-high levels, removing a condition sounds good
Should go a long way to making the fighter more fun and interesting after level 11

[djreynolds]

See... I'm on to something. Automatic success. Make indomitable, automatic.

And yes, second wind can remove poison from you, and maybe fear from someone else, can you use anything while afraid?

Trust in the battle I just fought, every turn was a wisdom save and DC23, with +8 I made three out of like 10, even if had had indomitable it would still be luck.

The fighter of all the classes is forced to roll the dice the most, just give it.

Remarkable athlete, once a short rest you could pass any dex or strength skill check. I mean you get half proficiency in 4 skills, and I already took athletic/acrobatic and maybe stealth. As dex fighter, I will take acrobatics, athletics (climbing),and stealth.

How about you add 1/2 proficiency to all dex and strength skills even if proficient, like "half" expertise. And to your saves.

Not many people complaining about barbarians and paladins, IMO, they are well designed with a lot of thought and "love". They just give me the feel I want when playing one.

I think I defend the fighter out of some misplaced romantic view of the past.... when I could fit into jeans and didn't have to suck in my gut!!! oh sorry wrong website..

The fighter needs some tweaks, minor ones.

A champion's crit is pretty powerful, as it is for all weapons. And survivor, though I don't like it, comes on at 18th as carrot to get you to stick around

[Sigreid]

So, A thought I'm having here is you could treat indomitable the same way a paladin's aura works, just only for the fighter. Basically, after a certain point they get their, lets say constitution, bonus to their saving throws. This does mean they are hella hard to fail on a Str or Con check, and they are always dangerous.

I do like the legendary resistance though. That's a good idea.

[DracoKnight]

So, A thought I'm having here is you could treat indomitable the same way a paladin's aura works, just only for the fighter. Basically, after a certain point they get their, lets say constitution, bonus to their saving throws. This does mean they are hella hard to fail on a Str or Con check, and they are always dangerous.

I think that I like this idea more than Legendary Resistance on a player character :smallbiggrin:

[Sicarius Victis]

A champion's crit is pretty powerful, as it is for all weapons.

Actually, it's rather overrated.

[djreynolds]

So, A thought I'm having here is you could treat indomitable the same way a paladin's aura works, just only for the fighter. Basically, after a certain point they get their, lets say constitution, bonus to their saving throws. This does mean they are hella hard to fail on a Str or Con check, and they are always dangerous.

I do like the legendary resistance though. That's a good idea.

I concur this is good.

[Maxilian]

I actually moved the 4th attack to 17th, to put it on par with when cantrips add their final die (since apparently cantrips are supposed to scale with extra attacks). And the capstone, I was thinking could be the ability to expend both of your action surges in one turn.

Have in mind that cantrips don't add modifiers (unless you have something extra that gives you the option to add it) and extra attack does (So its not really the same)

[MeeposFire]

Have in mind that cantrips don't add modifiers (unless you have something extra that gives you the option to add it) and extra attack does (So its not really the same)

Not exactly the same no but recall that in all the previous times they both happen at the same time. What that poster is trying to do is to increase consistency.

[Sigreid]

I concur this is good.

Glad some of you like it. Keep in mind that anyone implementing that will have fighters giving control casters fits.

[DracoKnight]

What would everyone suggest for 13th level?

[DracoKnight]

Have in mind that cantrips don't add modifiers (unless you have something extra that gives you the option to add it) and extra attack does (So its not really the same)


Not exactly the same no but recall that in all the previous times they both happen at the same time. What that poster is trying to do is to increase consistency.

Exactly this. It's for consistency. The power of PCs' at will abilities are expected to go up at 5th, 11th, and 17th level by the design of the system.

[BigONotation]

I've been playing with the proposed Indomitable (automatic) for a number of levels and everyone agrees that it's better. I think Remarkable Athlete should be part of the class

[MeeposFire]

Glad some of you like it. Keep in mind that anyone implementing that will have fighters giving control casters fits.

I am glad that people are really liking your idea since it is actually more powerful than mine. I thought people were going to say mine was too powerful but if they like yours then mine is probably safe. Then again I might just go with yours since it makes you effective faster which is always nice.

[Sigreid]

I am glad that people are really liking your idea since it is actually more powerful than mine. I thought people were going to say mine was too powerful but if they like yours then mine is probably safe. Then again I might just go with yours since it makes you effective faster which is always nice.

I do think it would need some play testing as under specific circumstances it might be too much. An example would be Fighter with a con mod of +5 standing next to a cha mod +5 paladin may be just flat out too good of a deal.

[DracoKnight]

I added a link to my rework in the OP.

[Kryx]

Can you include either a different color for things you have changed or a list somewhere in the document?

[DracoKnight]

Can you include either a different color for things you have changed or a list somewhere in the document?

I added a Change Log to the OP.


DracoKnight's 5e Fighter Rework (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHbFZCZ0pySGZkdzg/view?usp=sharing)



Second Wind is a great feature, but it loses its usefulness at higher levels, due to 1/rest usability
You now get Extra Attack at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. This creates design consistency, mirroring when the other classes in the game get their power boosts.
I can't think of a time where this feature was ever useful to me in my 2 years of playing fighters, particularly as a long rest ability. I have changed it to be like the Paladin's Aura of Protection, except keyed off of CON, and only applying to yourself.
I removed the school restrictions on Eldritch Knight Spellcasting, after seeing how many groups handwave it away anyways.
Now bound weapons count as magical for overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical damage.
Bulwark needed to be changed to reflect the changes to Indomitable.


Martial Expertise replaces Indomitable's improvement at 13th level, and reflects the Fighter's martial prowess.
I created Ace of Blades after moving the Fighter's 4th attack to 17th level. This should be a better capstone for the fighter, and make it worth going 20 levels in this class.

[Kryx]

Some nice ideas here. Items I'd recommend changing:

The bonded weapon for an EK should count as an arcane focus.
Martial Expertise is ridiculously overpowered. Perma advantage is a 9th-level spell. This is even better. This should not be part of the fighter's kit. Combine this with -5/+10 and you have a class that can do far more damage than others. I cannot stree how unbalanced this feature is.
Second Wind should scale to 2d10+fighter level at level 11+. I'd keep it short rest. That seems much less invasive and effective than the progression you chose.
Not a fan of Ace of Blades at all. I would choose a different capstone. Bursting in bigger numbers and far more commonly.. ugggh
I'd highly recommend revamping War Magic to replace an attack to cast the cantrip. Cantrips actually have pretty minimal impact on DPR. Even a 17th level cantrip user without ability score to cantrips does 25% of martial DPR with cantrips. 35% if they have ability score on the cantrip. Removing 1 attack out of 4 and replacing it with a cantrip should give a slight boost to the EK's DPR. I use the following:
War Magic: "Beginning at 7th level, when you use the Attack action, you may cast a cantrip in place of one weapon attack."
Improved War Magic: "Beginning at 18th level, when you use the Attack action, you may cast a spell in place of one weapon attack."


Indomitable looks good

[DracoKnight]

Some nice ideas here. Items I'd recommend changing:
The bonded weapon for an EK should count as an arcane focus.

*facepalm* Yes, it should. Added it in.


Martial Expertise is ridiculously overpowered. Perma advantage is a 9th-level spell. This is even better. This should not be part of the fighter's kit. Combine this with -5/+10 and you have a class that can do far more damage than others. I cannot stree how unbalanced this feature is.

Yeah, I wasn't satisfied with it. Do you have a suggestion for its replacement?


Second Wind should scale to 2d10+fighter level at level 11+. I'd keep it short rest. That seems much less invasive and effective than the progression you chose.

The progression I've specified is actually based on a houserule in a game I participated in. It's not as invasive as it looks, and it is helpful, but not overly powerful.


Not a fan of Ace of Blades at all. I would choose a different capstone. Bursting in bigger numbers and far more commonly.. ugggh

Eh, fighters are supposed to be the best warriors and Barbarians, by RAW, are the better single class; this fixes that, I felt. What would you suggest in place of it?


I'd highly recommend revamping War Magic to replace an attack to cast the cantrip. Cantrips actually have pretty minimal impact on DPR. Even a 17th level cantrip user without ability score to cantrips does 25% of martial DPR with cantrips. 35% if they have ability score on the cantrip. Removing 1 attack out of 4 and replacing it with a cantrip should give a slight boost to the EK's DPR. I use the following:
War Magic: "Beginning at 7th level, when you use the Attack action, you may cast a cantrip in place of one weapon attack."
Improved War Magic: "Beginning at 18th level, when you use the Attack action, you may cast a spell in place of one weapon attack."
[/LIST]

Is this a problem you have with the feature in general? I didn't change it from the book.


Indomitable looks good

Okay, one tweak successfully completed, several more to go.

[Kryx]

Sorry, I worded that a bit harshly perhaps. I do like several of the ideas. I'm trying to be a bit critical as I'm considering using this. Hopefully you took it as constructive criticism.


Yeah, I wasn't satisfied with it. Do you have a suggestion for its replacement?
In my eyes one of the weak points of a fighter (non-EK) is the out of combat features. Things like Champion's Remarkable Athlete make them good climbers for example. Fighter could use an ever so slight boost in combat effectiveness, but nothing major.


The progression I've specified is actually based on a houserule in a game I participated in. It's not as invasive as it looks, and it is helpful, but not overly powerful.
Your solution is to make it used more often. My solution is to make it heal for more. Either one will work, but I think healing for more is more valuable. Plus your solution could be used 5 rounds in a row which feels very very dirty to me. If you want to keep that version then I'd suggest twice per short rest or something similar.


Eh, fighters are supposed to be the best warriors and Barbarians, by RAW, are the better single class; this fixes that, I felt. What would you suggest in place of it?
I agree that fighters should be great martial characters. I don't necessarily agree that they should be the top damage. Fighters have their niche with Indomitable of not being as susceptible to saving throws while Barbarians are a bit more damage focused.
Additionally I don't think a 20th level feature really fixes much of class balance - it's just icing on the cake. Action surging every fight feels too much to me. Beyond that typically advancements of features are in that feature, not in a different feature as you've done here.

I don't have a great idea to replace it... I can look around and think on it.


Is this a problem you have with the feature in general? I didn't change it from the book.
I know you didn't change it. I'm suggesting it doesn't align with the fighter's main feature: extra attacks. It just ignores them to do less damage by casting a cantrip while hitting things. It's generally going to be a really poor option for EK unless you get some EB involved. It gets better at 18th level with a spell, but the core version is a worse option than attacking.
The suggestion I gave addresses this.

[LordVonDerp]

The deep stalker ranger gets wisdom save proficiency at 7th. Sounds good...but......we recently rolled a 1 time game with 20th level PCs, I took resilient wisdom, and with a 14 in wisdom had a +8.... I still failed my wisdom saves most of the time, stuff like DC23.


That's just a ludicrously high DC. It's equivalent to a level 20 caster with a +4 bonus to DCs

[BigONotation]

Martial Expertise is ridiculously overpowered. Perma advantage is a 9th-level spell. This is even better. This should not be part of the fighter's kit. Combine this with -5/+10 and you have a class that can do far more damage than others. I cannot stree how unbalanced this feature is.


Could be STR or DEX mod like it was in 5E Playtest for Fighters?

[DracoKnight]

Sorry, I worded that a bit harshly perhaps. I do like several of the ideas. I'm trying to be a bit critical as I'm considering using this. Hopefully you took it as constructive criticism.

I didn't think that you were being harsh at all, I'm always happy to receive constructive criticism.


In my eyes one of the weak points of a fighter (non-EK) is the out of combat features. Things like Champion's Remarkable Athlete make them good climbers for example. Fighter could use an ever so slight boost in combat effectiveness, but nothing major.

Very true. I'll try to come up with an out of combat feature for 13th level.


Your solution is to make it used more often. My solution is to make it heal for more. Either one will work, but I think healing for more is more valuable. Plus your solution could be used 5 rounds in a row which feels very very dirty to me. If you want to keep that version then I'd suggest twice per short rest or something similar.

Hmmmm... What about 1-10th level 1d10+Fighter level 1/rest, 11th-20th level 2d10+Fighter level 2/rest?


I agree that fighters should be great martial characters. I don't necessarily agree that they should be the top damage. Fighters have their niche with Indomitable of not being as susceptible to saving throws while Barbarians are a bit more damage focused.
Additionally I don't think a 20th level feature really fixes much of class balance - it's just icing on the cake. Action surging every fight feels too much to me. Beyond that typically advancements of features are in that feature, not in a different feature as you've done here.

I don't have a great idea to replace it... I can look around and think on it.

Any suggestions you have would be great :smallbiggrin:
Would it be better if it just removed the clause about regaining AS on initiative?


I know you didn't change it. I'm suggesting it doesn't align with the fighter's main feature: extra attacks. It just ignores them to do less damage by casting a cantrip while hitting things. It's generally going to be a really poor option for EK unless you get some EB involved. It gets better at 18th level with a spell, but the core version is a worse option than attacking.
The suggestion I gave addresses this.

Alright, I'll get this tweaked. I see what you're saying :smallsmile:

[Kryx]

Hmmmm... What about 1-10th level 1d10+Fighter level 1/rest, 11th-20th level 2d10+Fighter level 2/rest?
I would be in favor of it.

For 20th level I can't think of any great ideas. Ability scores has been done by Barbarian so we shouldn't copy that. I would perhaps allow action surge to end any one condition and then some kind of medium-level ability score or combat buff.

For my EK suggested change I would recommend limiting it with "any Wizard cantrip" or something to that effect. It sucks to lose other possibilities like thorn whip or other fun cantrips, but the damage potential with EB would be too high otherwise.

[DracoKnight]

I would be in favor of it.

Alright, I'll make that change, then.


For 20th level I can't think of any great ideas. Ability scores has been done by Barbarian so we shouldn't copy that. I would perhaps allow action surge to end any one condition and then some kind of medium-level ability score or combat buff.

Yeah, I'm at a loss too...I'll work on it with some people I know who are really good with ideas.


For my EK suggested change I would recommend limiting it with "any Wizard cantrip" or something to that effect. It sucks to lose other possibilities like thorn whip or other fun cantrips, but the damage potential with EB would be too high otherwise.

Haha...yeah. Good idea. Because a 2 level warlock dip would absolutely break that.