Animate Dead rules tweak: how would this effect balance & use of the spell?

[Coidzor]

Let's say that Animate Dead lets one choose to retain NPC levels and converts PC levels into one of those, usually Warrior. So killing or raiding the graveyard of a town of level 3 commoner humans yields human commoner skeletons and zombies. Or raiding a battlefield can net a bunch of orc and human warrior skeletons and zombies. Or killing a Frost Giant Jarl and animating him nets you a skeleton with 14 RHD and 6 Warrior levels.

How does this compare with the usual method of angling for animals and magical beasts and monstrous humanoids with either lots of natural attacks or one big attack or settling for Bloodhulks if nothing beefy on its own is available?

Would using humanoid-derived skeletons and zombies become superior or competitive or still be outclassed?

What about allowing retention of levels and conversion of them into NPC class levels as part of a Greater Animate Dead that's 2 spell levels higher than base Animate Dead and with no cap on the max HD of skeletons and zombies the same way dragon skeletons and dragon zombies behave along with the undead created being low mental ability scores but non-mindless?

Edit: What about adding retention of skills and feats and the option to convert all levels into Warrior levels for the Greater Animate Dead version?

[ryu]

Would the added class levels be replacing HD or on top of what's there? This matters if command undead isn't being used to bypass control cap limits.

[Jack_Simth]

Adepts for casting - well, assuming you get the skeleton a sufficiently strong periapt of wisdom for the adept level (Skeletons have a Wis of 10, and Adepts get up to 5th level spells)... but otherwise, you're still hunting down brute monsters for your combat force. The extra BAB and Hit Dice don't actually help much compared to everything the beasts have.

[Zanos]

The issue with animate dead is that your budget is HD, so you want to pack as much power into that HD as possible. That means that ideally, you get a creature with very high strength, optionally high dex, a lot of natural attacks, or have it pick up a two handed weapon.

I'm personally of the opinion that non-humanonoid humanoid shaped undead are great, specifically Giants. Their strength scores are so high that they pack a wallop if you give them a Greatsword, plus they can wear armor and be, while not inconspicuous, not as obvious. Maybe I'm biased because I think being flanked by 10ft tall knights with huge swords is awesome.

[Coidzor]

Would the added class levels be replacing HD or on top of what's there? This matters if command undead isn't being used to bypass control cap limits.

Was torn between the idea of having regular old humans and elves and dwarves having 1 RHD as skeletons and 2 RHD as zombies in addition to their NPC class levels and having creatures like that, which only had class levels in life, only having NPC class levels as skellies and zombies.

A Bugbear Fighter 7 would have 3 RHD and 7 Warrior HD as a skeleton and 6 RHD and 7 Warrior HD as a zombie, either way I was thinking.

[ryu]

Was torn between the idea of having regular old humans and elves and dwarves having 1 RHD as skeletons and 2 RHD as zombies in addition to their NPC class levels and having creatures like that, which only had class levels in life, only having NPC class levels as skellies and zombies.

A Bugbear Fighter 7 would have 3 RHD and 7 Warrior HD as a skeleton and 6 RHD and 7 Warrior HD as a zombie, either way I was thinking.

In which case I'm actually pretty sure this a nerf/less competitive option unless the caster is also using command undead to obviate hit die caps. If you're low enough level to want straight melee minions you want as many of them as possible. This is because of a combination of action economy, averaging of luck, and if focusing necromancy the ability to build yourself so whenever a minion dies it explodes in negative energy healing the rest and damaging enemies. It also synergizes really well with buffs that effect an area like bolstering, and bards.

[Extra Anchovies]

Disposable minions provide a number of tactical advantages to their master.

1. Damage at range. The minions can incapacitate enemies while the master keeps their distance (or hides entirely using cover and/or invisibility).
2. Damage absorption. The destruction of a minion has no effect on the master, so minions can be take possibly or definitely suicidal actions to provide the master an advantage.
3. Field control. The minions take up space and block enemy movement and attacks, protecting their master while disrupting enemy tactics.

Comparing an undead monster with an undead humanoid warrior, the former will have better field control due to size and better damage absorption due to larger HD. I'm not sure about damage output, because the warrior will have significantly higher BAB, while the monster will have significantly higher strength and is making all of its attacks at roughly the same to-hit. So the advantage is pretty clearly still with the big high-Strength monsters rather than the medium-sized humanoid warriors, unless the BAB difference results in much higher damage output.

[Gnaeus]

I agree with above. Although the humanoids may have less disadvantage in enclosed spaces.

Perhaps if you also allowed them to have feats from the warrior levels, chosen by the DM based on what is being raised? So the skeletons from the monastery can all trip or grapple, the orcs have WF great axe etc? It sounds like you are trying to have them retain a share of past fighting skill, so seems like a reasonable houserule. It may result in lots of necromancer on martial adept violence, but that could be good...

[ExLibrisMortis]

Commoner hit dice are obviously straight-up worse than undead hit dice.

Adepts are a class of their own; they're probably better than most anything at higher levels, if skeletons and zombies can cast spells (with wisdom boosts), but they fill a different niche than typical mass-undead armies.

Experts and aristocrats trade in 3 and 2 hp/HD respectively, for +0.25 bab/HD, which is not that great. High-HD monsters will bring in enough strength to compensate for the bab loss; in fact, one size increase (starting with medium+) should account for sixteen levels of base attack difference.

Warrior hit dice trade in 2 hp for +0.5 bab, which is the best so far, and they have a different good save. Mindless undead do not make a lot of either will or fort saves, so I don't think it's going to be that relevant. Skeleton warriors can still use weapons, and they will get some useful iteratives, probably worth an extra attack overall. However, with those hit dice used up on warrior levels, you are once again losing out on size increases, and the +8 strength from being Large simply outweighs any base attack gain (and probably makes up a good deal of the extra attack's damage, too), not even counting the lost hit points, additional natural attacks, or natural armour.


tl;dr I wouldn't put warrior levels on my skeleton, unless I got them for free.

[OldTrees1]

What level is the necromancer and what order of magnitude best describes the number of their minions?

1) As one gets higher and higher level, not only does a skeleton's HD need to increase faster than your own to keep up quantitatively but the skeleton will not keep up with respect to qualitative concerns.

2) The cap on the number of undead/HD a necromancer controls depends on their means of control (which is easily guessed by the order of magnitude that best describes the number controlled). If they are still capped by HD then they would want more undead before wanting tougher undead until they hit their self imposed limit on how many undead they want to deal with. On the other hand if they are capped by number of undead controlled, then they would prefer higher HD undead.


Based upon my own experience (subjective to group power level & personal minion management preferences) this would affect the high Chain Command Undead but pre Animate Dread Warrior period. So for 11th-14th level I would use humanoid skeletons under this rule rather than use monstrous skeletons during that period.